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Originally posted by Wrigley

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Wrigley


If you wish than keep your fantasy of Tolkien's elves in the Realms but there is no evidence of them in given lore except for their own viewpoint and tales.

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No evidence beyond repeated canonical statements, magic that only they can wield, and the fact that they, unlike any other race, have literally reshaped an entire continent.

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Sure but think about this - Ed himself told us many times that most of the books are written from perspective of biased narrative so almost all books about elves are from elven POV. Also we all count into canon books where characters proclaim things that are not true or partialy true. Same goes for lore as we all know they usualy say only half of it.
You should not take literaly all that is written as a FR product and I would have hoped you of all should know that Master of Mischief.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
On the contrary -- I take what is written as true unless there is specific reason to doubt it. Because otherwise, we have to doubt everything, and in doing so, not really know anything about the setting. If nothing is true, then there is no point to bothering to read any of it.

So the things that have no apparent bias -- like the multiple books that speak of elven arrogance and failures, but also of their wondrous accomplishments -- I assume to be true, because there is no reason to assume otherwise.

Personal dislike for something leading to a dismissal of facts shows far more of a bias than something with a demonstrably objective PoV.

I can't stand Karsus, and I maintain that it was pure foolishness and pride, entirely on his part, that destroyed Netheril -- but I do not let this blind me to the fact that he had many noteworthy accomplishments, and that even at the height of his folly, he still ascended to heights that remain unmatched by mortals since then. He was perhaps the greatest fool the setting has ever seen -- but he was also the greatest fool the setting has ever seen!

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Originally posted by Wrigley

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
On the contrary -- I take what is written as true unless there is specific reason to doubt it. Because otherwise, we have to doubt everything, and in doing so, not really know anything about the setting. If nothing is true, then there is no point to bothering to read any of it.

So the things that have no apparent bias -- like the multiple books that speak of elven arrogance and failures, but also of their wondrous accomplishments -- I assume to be true, because there is no reason to assume otherwise.

Personal dislike for something leading to a dismissal of facts shows far more of a bias than something with a demonstrably objective PoV.

I can't stand Karsus, and I maintain that it was pure foolishness and pride, entirely on his part, that destroyed Netheril -- but I do not let this blind me to the fact that he had many noteworthy accomplishments, and that even at the height of his folly, he still ascended to heights that remain unmatched by mortals since then. He was perhaps the greatest fool the setting has ever seen -- but he was also the greatest fool the setting has ever seen!

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I do not say nothing is true. I am just saying to take written lore with a grain of salt. They do not lie but certainly they tell only part of the true fact and you have to keep reading to get closer to what has really happened.
So they say elves are magical creatures - they came from planes - check
They say only elves can cast high magic - and they do almost anything to keep it that way - check
multiple elven source confirm their statement - "circle confirmation" from the same source=propaganda - check
elves are good - any time elves do horrible thing there is always a scrapegoat - check

"Personal dislike for something leading to a dismissal of facts" if this should be aimed at me than there are two parts of that. First is my own understanding of lore based on multiple sources and "reading between the lines". Second is conscious choice to ignore parts of the lore a using different version for my realms. I am always trying to separate the two and point to "made up stuff" in my posts here.

If someone told a story of Karsus, the greatest wizard of all time who tried to save the world by his spell but was set up by demon corruption that made his spell into such catastrophe - than we have similarity to elven story.
I have never said they did not work those spells. In fact I maintain that it was pure foolishness and pride, that destroyed elven kingdoms.

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multiple elven source confirm their statement - "circle confirmation" from the same source=propaganda - check

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Originally posted by Irennan


While I agree that the elves have been repeatedly stated to be creatures of the Weave, their magical feats aren't anything unique. The Imaskari blocked an entire effing pantheon, including greater deities, from accessing Toril

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Originally posted by TBeholder

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Originally posted by Irennan


While I agree that the elves have been repeatedly stated to be creatures of the Weave, their magical feats aren't anything unique. The Imaskari blocked an entire effing pantheon, including greater deities, from accessing Toril

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What it got to do with the elves, and their High Magic being unique? Nobody claimed the Imaskari emulated High Magic for this.

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Originally posted by TBeholder

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Originally posted by Irennan


While I agree that the elves have been repeatedly stated to be creatures of the Weave, their magical feats aren't anything unique. The Imaskari blocked an entire effing pantheon, including greater deities, from accessing Toril

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What it got to do with the elves, and their High Magic being unique? Nobody claimed the Imaskari emulated High Magic for this.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by TBeholder

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Originally posted by Irennan


While I agree that the elves have been repeatedly stated to be creatures of the Weave, their magical feats aren't anything unique. The Imaskari blocked an entire effing pantheon, including greater deities, from accessing Toril

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What it got to do with the elves, and their High Magic being unique? Nobody claimed the Imaskari emulated High Magic for this.

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I've long thought the Imaskari blocking deities from Toril was somewhat overrated.

Okay, it is an impressive feat... But -- those deities did not have a presence in Realmspace. They were, therefore, relatively powerless -- they had less ability to do anything in Realmspace than local demipowers did. Ao hadn't allowed those deities in, at that point.

So those deities, though greater powers elsewhere, had no ability to do anything in the Realms. The Imaskari barrier reinforced this, more than anything else. They weren't blocking the full might of those deities -- they were blocking communications with them.

In essence, the Imaskari were boarding up the only window in an already locked door.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by TBeholder

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Originally posted by Irennan


While I agree that the elves have been repeatedly stated to be creatures of the Weave, their magical feats aren't anything unique. The Imaskari blocked an entire effing pantheon, including greater deities, from accessing Toril

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What it got to do with the elves, and their High Magic being unique? Nobody claimed the Imaskari emulated High Magic for this.

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I've long thought the Imaskari blocking deities from Toril was somewhat overrated.

Okay, it is an impressive feat... But -- those deities did not have a presence in Realmspace. They were, therefore, relatively powerless -- they had less ability to do anything in Realmspace than local demipowers did. Ao hadn't allowed those deities in, at that point.

So those deities, though greater powers elsewhere, had no ability to do anything in the Realms. The Imaskari barrier reinforced this, more than anything else. They weren't blocking the full might of those deities -- they were blocking communications with them.

In essence, the Imaskari were boarding up the only window in an already locked door.

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



I've long thought the Imaskari blocking deities from Toril was somewhat overrated.

Okay, it is an impressive feat... But -- those deities did not have a presence in Realmspace. They were, therefore, relatively powerless -- they had less ability to do anything in Realmspace than local demipowers did. Ao hadn't allowed those deities in, at that point.

So those deities, though greater powers elsewhere, had no ability to do anything in the Realms. The Imaskari barrier reinforced this, more than anything else. They weren't blocking the full might of those deities -- they were blocking communications with them.

In essence, the Imaskari were boarding up the only window in an already locked door.

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The Imaskari basically brought an entire people from another world. As soon as that happened, their gods gained a presence in Realmspace, due to worship. It's like the arrival of the elves on Toril; they simply brought their gods with them; there's no mention of Ao needing to allow the Seldarine in first, so why shouldn't the same be true for the Mulhorandi gods?

Plus, if the Seldarine can benefit from the power gained from worship by their people in other worlds, why wouldn't the same be true for the Mulhorandi pantheon?

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Originally posted by Irennan

The difference between Boccob and the Mulhorandi is that Boccob doesn't have worshipers in FR; the Mulhorandi gained them as soon as the Imaskari borught their people in, so while their influence on the Realms was limited to the worshipers, their power as entities (and therefore their ability to resist the barrier) came from all their worship.

Look at it from this perspective: if Ao hadn't allowed the Mulhorandi gods in before the barrier was erected, then they would have had no power on Toril, and the Imaskari barrier would have been entirely pointless, since the Mulhorandi couldn't have done anything anyway. If the Imaskari erected the barrier, it means that those gods already had power in Realmspace, and could have posed a threat. Going by what you say, it means that Ao had already allowed them in, and the barrier was erected to prevent them from affecting Toril despite that (until AOointevened to correct that).

Also, assuming that the barrier was erected before Ao granted the Mulhorandi gods a permission to act on Toril, and that all it took to break it was Ao's greenlighting them, then the barrier would be pointless anyway, because it was blocking literally nothing (since the gods weren't able to act anyway).

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Irennan

The difference between Boccob and the Mulhorandi is that Boccob doesn't have worshipers in FR; the Mulhorandi gained them as soon as the Imaskari borught their people in, so while their influence on the Realms was limited to the worshipers, their power as entities (and therefore their ability to resist the barrier) came from all their worship.

Look at it from this perspective: if Ao hadn't allowed the Mulhorandi gods in before the barrier was erected, then they would have had no power on Toril, and the Imaskari barrier would have been entirely pointless, since the Mulhorandi couldn't have done anything anyway. If the Imaskari erected the barrier, it means that those gods already had power in Realmspace, and could have posed a threat. Going by what you say, it means that Ao had already allowed them in, and the barrier was erected to prevent them from affecting Toril despite that (until AOointevened to correct that).

Also, assuming that the barrier was erected before Ao granted the Mulhorandi gods a permission to act on Toril, and that all it took to break it was Ao's greenlighting them, then the barrier would be pointless anyway, because it was blocking literally nothing (since the gods weren't able to act anyway).

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You know for a fact that Boccob has no followers in the Realms, despite the fact that there's been enough traffic between the settings for Mordenkainen's and Bigby's spells to be known in the Realms?

And Ao didn't allow the Mulhorandi deities in until after they sent avatars through wildspace to get there. If they had been allowed in before that, they wouldn't have had to do that.

That's my point: the Mulhorandi deities may have had some worship in the Realms, but they were not deities of the Realms until Ao let them in. At the time that the Imaskari raised their barrier, they were raising it against deities that had no power in the setting because they had not been allowed in.

Worship in the setting does not give power in the setting. It's explicitly detailed in Spelljammer lore: any cleric can get 2nd level spells, anywhere -- but if their deity isn't worshipped in the sphere, and doesn't have an agreement with a local deity, then they can't get anything more unless they use the Contact Home Power spell to call home. And even that only gives the cleric their normal abilities -- it doesn't make their power a power of that sphere.

The Imaskari were not fighting the full power of the Mulhorandi deities, because the deities couldn't bring their full power to bear, because they were not deities of the Realms.

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Originally posted by Irennan


If Boccob has some following in FR, it's really small. The Imaskari enslaved a people; they brought in more than 100k people.

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Originally posted by Irennan

The thing is, the Imaskari barrier bloacked any kind of Mulhorandi divine magic, which would include even the "Contact Home Power" spell, which also supports that the barrier was able to affect greater powers.

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Originally posted by Irennan

Setting that aside, the Imaskari barrier was stated multiple times to have indeed blocked the pantheon, and that Ao's intervention mostly allowed the mortal manifestations of the Mulhorandi gods to cross the barrier. This suggests that Ao had already allowed them in, and that the barrier indeed blocked them at their full power.

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Originally posted by Irennan

In fact, if all he needed to do to break the barrier was allowing the Mulhorandi in, and if his intervention was, as you suggest, merely the act of greenlighting them, there would have been no need to recur to the manifestations. The Mulhorandi gods could have acted normally, like the other pantheons, by granting spells and sending avatars, rather than forcing themselves in such a situation.

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Originally posted by Irennan

From the text in the 3e FRCS, it also sounds like Ao did something unusual to let the manifestations in, and that they entered (thanks to Ao) through "alternative paths", suggesting that the barrier was actually really effective, and that even an overgod wasn't able to allow the Mulhorandi gods to act normally, but had to create a way to circumvent the barrier.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There's enough traffic for those spells to be on a lot of spell lists. That means that there is enough traffic for any one of the Greyhawk deities to have at least a small following in the sphere -- if they were allowed in.

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No, it meant that 2nd level spells cast by mortals -- assuming they even knew those spells -- were being blocked.

Blocking calls does not make you a phone company.

If the barrier blocked them, it meant they were not there. Therefore, they were not at full strength and able to bring all their divine might to bear. Which means the Imaskari were not blocking the full power of the pantheon, since it wasn't there to block.

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We don't know why Ao acted the way he did, in this matter. We know that he did, though.

The Mulhorandi deities did not have access to the sphere, and Ao made them work for it.

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So what you're saying, then, is that the guy who could simultaneously kick all of the gods out of the heavens and demote them to avatars -- including the deity of magic -- could somehow not overcome mortal magic? Even though he can demote Mystra, and Mystra can strip magic from the Imaskari with barely a twitch of her finger, Ao somehow couldn't overcome the Imaskari?

No. Does not compute.

It comes down to what I said before: the Mulhorandi had no power in the Realms, and the Imaskari cut off communications to them. That's it. It was not a case of the Imaskari being more powerful than the Mulhorandi -- because once the Mulhorandi deities sent their incarnations in, they kicked serious Imaskari butt.

This proves that the Imaskari could not stand up to the might of the Mulhorandi deities.

And it further proves that the Mulhorandi deities were powerless in the Realms before then, because they weren't present in the setting to bring such power to bear.

Thus, the Imaskari barrier did not block the full strength of the Mulhorandi pantheon. It merely kept them from being able to get a toehold in the setting.

Unless you've got some explanation for how the Imaskari were both able to block the full power of a pantheon and yet not able to withstand part of the power of that pantheon, then you have to admit that the Imaskari barrier was not blocking the full power of the Mulhorandi deities. It can't be both ways.

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Originally posted by Irennan

It was about the claim that the feat of separating an island from a continent was indicative of elven magical superiority, or uniqueness.

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That said, I've never really understood what defines High Magic.

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but that's essentially the same as certain kinds of human magic.

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Originally posted by Irennan



The barrier was stated to block prayers, true, but also to block the gods' possibility to intervene.

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Originally posted by Irennan

As for the other point, it means that those gods were there, but were prevented from acting on Toril due to the barrier. But, I mean, I'm not the one saying it; it's stated very clearly in many canonical sources that the Imaskari did indeed block the pantheon, and that Ao had to intervene and grant the Mulhorandi gods the ability to act on Toril--through an alternative way.

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Originally posted by Irennan

It doesn't say that the Mulhorandi gods were on standby due to not having access and the Imaskari were just blocking what little power the Mulhorandi people could muster, then Ao allowed them in; it says that Ao intervened to help them cross the barrier, which is an entirely different matter.

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Originally posted by Irennan

The fact that they still couldn't act normally after that is also prof of the barrier's efficiency.

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Originally posted by Irennan

And, once again, the sources state that the Mulhorandi gods were blocked by the Imaskari, which is different from merely not having access (in fact, if they didn't have access, there was nothing to block to begin with), and that they were able to send manifestations thanks to Ao's intervention, not merely for his decision to allow them in.

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Originally posted by Irennan

Power isn't just direct battles. The Imaskari's signature magic was portal magic, travels and barriers between worlds, etc... Their proficiency in that kind of magic could have been enough to block greater powers, but their prowess in battle magic might have been inferior to that (which isn't to say that it wasn't impressive anyway, but definitely not up the power of a pantheon). This is actually a common trope in fiction (the smart guy defeating the powerful guy through tricks and stuff).

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Irennan



The barrier was stated to block prayers, true, but also to block the gods' possibility to intervene.

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Their ability to intervene wasn't blocked by the Imaskari -- the Mulhorandi gods literally could not intervene in the Realms, because they were powerless there.

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Originally posted by Irennan

As for the other point, it means that those gods were there, but were prevented from acting on Toril due to the barrier. But, I mean, I'm not the one saying it; it's stated very clearly in many canonical sources that the Imaskari did indeed block the pantheon, and that Ao had to intervene and grant the Mulhorandi gods the ability to act on Toril--through an alternative way.

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They blocked the gods by not allowing them to communicate with their worshippers, and thus not have any influence in the Realms. It was as I said earlier -- the Imaskari boarded up a window on an already locked door. The Mulhorandi deities couldn't act in the Realms without being worshipped there, and the Imaskari made sure the worship wasn't getting to them. They blocked the call.

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Originally posted by Irennan

It doesn't say that the Mulhorandi gods were on standby due to not having access and the Imaskari were just blocking what little power the Mulhorandi people could muster, then Ao allowed them in; it says that Ao intervened to help them cross the barrier, which is an entirely different matter.

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It doesn't have to say that because it is canon that deities without worship in the Realmspace are effectively powerless there. It doesn't matter how powerful a deity is elsewhere, in the Realms, it's tied to how much worship they get.

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Originally posted by Irennan

And, once again, the sources state that the Mulhorandi gods were blocked by the Imaskari, which is different from merely not having access (in fact, if they didn't have access, there was nothing to block to begin with), and that they were able to send manifestations thanks to Ao's intervention, not merely for his decision to allow them in.

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We're going in circles, here. The Mulhorandi deites were blocked by the fact that they were not receiving worship. That's it.

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Originally posted by Irennan

Power isn't just direct battles. The Imaskari's signature magic was portal magic, travels and barriers between worlds, etc... Their proficiency in that kind of magic could have been enough to block greater powers, but their prowess in battle magic might have been inferior to that (which isn't to say that it wasn't impressive anyway, but definitely not up the power of a pantheon). This is actually a common trope in fiction (the smart guy defeating the powerful guy through tricks and stuff).

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I seriously doubt that the Imaskari became a powerful magical empire without knowing some battle magic.

Even if, by some freak mishap, they didn't know any battle magic at all, if they were so powerful to block the full might of the Mulhorandi pantheon, they could have simply opened more portals and sent the incarnations elsewhere. Boom, problem solved.

The fact that they didn't do that, or otherwise defeat these lesser versions of the gods, proves they were not stronger than those deities, and thus could not have stood up to their full might.

And if they couldn't stand up to the full might of those deities, it means their barrier was not holding off that full might. The reason it wasn't was because the deities had no power in the Realms because they weren't receiving any worship from there -- and that's because that's all the barrier was doing.

It's canon, in just about every source that pertains to deities, that worship is power in the Realms, and that deities die without it. That's why that was all the Imaskari had to do.

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Originally posted by Irennan

The fact that they still couldn't act normally after that is also prof of the barrier's efficiency.

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No, it merely reinforces that they were not deities of the Realms.

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Originally posted by Wrigley

Wooly - you say that Mulhorandi deities had no power from worship in Toril due to Imaskari barrier even before they came. How do you explain that they were allowed to come then even when we know that barrier stood until ToT? How could they stay here and do not starve to death as that is what you imply as effect of the barrier...
I have tried to understand your view but it doesn't add up.

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Originally posted by Irennan



The Mulhorandi gods had worship in the Realms, a massive one at that. Even if the requests of their people didn't reach them, the faith was there. A deity's followers could ask nothing from their deity, but still have faith in them (as unlikely as it is, that can happen in theory). So, the Mulhorandi gods had faith and followers in the Realms.

So, if faith is the matter, it doesn't follow that the Mulhorandi gods were powerless in FR, because they had plenty of it. And the barrier blocked that power.

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No, it merely reinforces that they were not deities of the Realms.

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This is self contradictory. You said that they crossed the barrier 'cause Ao allowed them in, therefore making them deities of the Realms.

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Originally posted by Irennan

Also, by your logic, being allowed in, and being therefore deities of FR, would have been enough to break the barrier. So, why they still weren't free to act like normal gods?

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by Wrigley

Wooly - you say that Mulhorandi deities had no power from worship in Toril due to Imaskari barrier even before they came. How do you explain that they were allowed to come then even when we know that barrier stood until ToT? How could they stay here and do not starve to death as that is what you imply as effect of the barrier...
I have tried to understand your view but it doesn't add up.

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The death by starvation thing was eancted by AO only after the ToT that I know.

That said, power has always been linked to faith (when Miyeritar was genocided, for example, and Eilistraee was left with a handful of followers, she survived, but was still reduced to nonrelevance).

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It was made explicit at that point, but it was always around. Maybe Ao tied it to specific amounts or something... But we know it was around because Shaundakul was just barely hanging on with a handful of worshipers, and because Auppenser -- after losing almost all of his worshipers -- was only around because Mystra had acted to preserve his existence. The Realms is littered with other fallen deities, too, and more than one source has referred to this or that "forgotten" deity from ancient times.

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Originally posted by Wrigley


OK so you say Mulhorandi gods had no power in Realms until they freed their people but how could they do that if they had no power? They should not be permitted to Realms and even if they got in somehow they should not have power to defeat Imaskari.

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Originally posted by Wrigley

To the death by starvation - there are many slumbering gods without any power so even if they did not die they were virtualy nonexistent. Ao's rule should change that so they will die out totaly if not worshiped.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Because they sent their incarnations through wildspace and arrived in the Realms that way, with Ao's blessing. Their incarnations were essentially avatars; their power was invested in the incarnations. Had the Imaskari won, this power likely would have been lost to the pantheon.

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Originally posted by Wrigley

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Because they sent their incarnations through wildspace and arrived in the Realms that way, with Ao's blessing. Their incarnations were essentially avatars; their power was invested in the incarnations. Had the Imaskari won, this power likely would have been lost to the pantheon.

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You said they had no power in Realms until Ao approves. If he did not do that than they and also their avatars/incarnation should have no power here.
So you say any god from any plane can send avatar to Toril to wreak havoc with their full power but they have to ask Ao only if they want to stay permanently?
"Hi Bane, I am Bane from xy and I am on vacation with my friend Hextor do you mind if we fiddle a little with your Zhentarim as they look like fun. But do not worry we will be out in two weeks. Oh week have ten days here that is so cool."

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