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Cosmar
Seeker
89 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Oct 2019 : 03:34:04
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So, in my current game, we're in a demiplane ruled by fey creatures in which we have just discovered a community of sylvan and dark elves that have been living there since before the end of the First Crown War. These dark elves are pre-Descent and don't even know about what happened in the Crown Wars since they've never gone back to Faerun.
Not that it's terribly important, but I'm wondering what you all think pre-Descent dark elves would look like, stat/ability-wise? I play 3.5, but I assume they'd be significantly different considering most of their current features (regardless of which edition) are due to having lived underground/near faerzress/in their brutal culture for so long.
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Edited by - Cosmar on 01 Oct 2019 03:36:00
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2019 : 13:05:57
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| IMHO they are not different from surface elves, stats-wise. Maybe more akin to the wood elves. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2019 : 14:55:38
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First of all they were black even before descent - that is why they were called dark elves, no white hairs and red eyes though.
As for stats I would give them -2 Con, +2 Cha as they seemed to be more social than others. No special powers except for normal abilities of elves. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2019 : 15:37:26
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According to Cormanthyr, Empire of Elves, Dark Elves already had white hair (or light blond nhair) even befroe the curse. The curse only gave them predominantly red eyes, and an even darker skin.
As for stats, they are supposedly part of the green elves group, so I guess it's safe to use standard elven stats, and maybe swap the DES stat bonus for an INT or CHA stat bonus, as Wrigley suggested, to reflect the fact that both old dark elven kingdoms were specialized in magic? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Oct 2019 15:41:16 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2019 : 23:41:29
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| I’m curious if these responses would be appropriate as well for the elves of Rymanthin. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2019 : 23:56:49
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The only explicit mention AFAIK, is:
quote:
Suyoll/"The Revival": This ritual restores an elf's life, health, and harmony with the Weave. This is seen as an acceptance back into the community of elves, despite any changes that occur during the elf's life (or death).
This ritual restores an elf's natural state, neutralizing all ill or unnatural effects upon him. It cancels curses of any nature other than those divinely placed (i.e., personally inflicted by a god) and spell effects such as petrification and polymorph.
[...]
This ritual can even restore a drow to status among the Tel'Quessir, though the ritual erases all powers (but not appearance) of the drow (judge as a moon elf).
- Cormanthyr, p.136
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 02 Oct 2019 00:00:15 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2019 : 02:05:36
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Irennan: Can you point me to page where it is written? I have not been able to find it.
Even for humans it make no sense to have dark skin and light hairs let alone for elves who are themed (gold, silver, green, ...)
As I made a research I would use for my game a black skin and red hairs and eyes as I tie their origin to Fairre (eladrin). |
Edited by - Wrigley on 02 Oct 2019 02:07:23 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2019 : 06:34:33
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| If surface elves have a ritual to embrace, "redeem", and "purify" dark elves then it's only fair for dark elves to have a ritual which can embrace, "accurse", and "corrupt" their soft and misguided surface brethren. (Although the drow ritual might admittedly have a mortality rate.) |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2019 : 14:46:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
If surface elves have a ritual to embrace, "redeem", and "purify" dark elves then it's only fair for dark elves to have a ritual which can embrace, "accurse", and "corrupt" their soft and misguided surface brethren. (Although the drow ritual might admittedly have a mortality rate.)
Why would drow curse and corrupt surface elves? isn't it easier to simply kill them or enslave them?
Their version of ritual curse is transformation to driders btw. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2019 : 15:47:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
If surface elves have a ritual to embrace, "redeem", and "purify" dark elves then it's only fair for dark elves to have a ritual which can embrace, "accurse", and "corrupt" their soft and misguided surface brethren. (Although the drow ritual might admittedly have a mortality rate.)
Why would drow curse and corrupt surface elves? isn't it easier to simply kill them or enslave them?
Their version of ritual curse is transformation to driders btw.
I agree with Ayrik that if there's a process to go one way, there should be a process to go the other. However, the process for elves involves High Magic, and despite the Lady Penitent trilogy, I prefer the earlier lore that indicated drow could not use High Magic. (Caveat: I can see some sort of ritual that would allow Eilistraee's followers to have limited or temporary access to High Magic, but I'd not go any further than that)
So I'd say that the drow could manage a spell/ritual to convert an elf to a drow, but it'd be more difficult for them... And even if it wasn't, they'd not have a reason to do it, in most cases. Maybe Vhaeraunites on the surface would do it to disaffected elves that had joined them, but that's about the only reason I can think of. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2019 : 16:11:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Irennan: Can you point me to page where it is written? I have not been able to find it.
Even for humans it make no sense to have dark skin and light hairs let alone for elves who are themed (gold, silver, green, ...)
As I made a research I would use for my game a black skin and red hairs and eyes as I tie their origin to Fairre (eladrin).
p.126 (under the high magic abuse part, which starts at page 125). Anyway, 2 points: 1)dark skin/blond hair combo exists in RL, and there's a place in the world, can't rememeber where (but a google search should point to it), where blond hair/black skin is rather common. 2)This is D&D, the kind of fantasy where living ceilings that only exist to attack you are naturally part of ecosystems. Do you really expect things to make the slightest scientific sense? It's not that kind of fantasy where authors try to keep things close to RL when magic isn't involved. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 02 Oct 2019 16:23:39 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2019 : 16:15:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
If surface elves have a ritual to embrace, "redeem", and "purify" dark elves then it's only fair for dark elves to have a ritual which can embrace, "accurse", and "corrupt" their soft and misguided surface brethren. (Although the drow ritual might admittedly have a mortality rate.)
Why would drow curse and corrupt surface elves? isn't it easier to simply kill them or enslave them?
Their version of ritual curse is transformation to driders btw.
I agree with Ayrik that if there's a process to go one way, there should be a process to go the other. However, the process for elves involves High Magic, and despite the Lady Penitent trilogy, I prefer the earlier lore that indicated drow could not use High Magic. (Caveat: I can see some sort of ritual that would allow Eilistraee's followers to have limited or temporary access to High Magic, but I'd not go any further than that)
So I'd say that the drow could manage a spell/ritual to convert an elf to a drow, but it'd be more difficult for them... And even if it wasn't, they'd not have a reason to do it, in most cases. Maybe Vhaeraunites on the surface would do it to disaffected elves that had joined them, but that's about the only reason I can think of.
Don't worry, that part from LP has been retconned (in the actual sense of retconning, not merely reverted like most of the rest of those books). And nothing of value was lost, for LP was but a bunch of nonsensical (and pretty huge) retcons mashed together, so that a plot that makes absolutely no sense in the context of the Realms could satisfy the editorial mandate.
Vhaeraunites should pretty ok with the elves who join them staying elves. That's because Vhaeraun (and I mean the actual one, written by Ed, not the retconnish parody in MToF) actually wants all elves to be united in the conquest of supremacy over the world (under his lead, ofc). Plus, normal elves can make for pretty good spies and infiltrators, so, unless an elf expressed the desire to be turned into a drow, they'd have no reason to do it. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 02 Oct 2019 16:22:42 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2019 : 18:04:23
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OK first part - I agree that there should be possibility of reversing curse that made drow as they are now. Who can do it and on what scale is for debate (or later editions ;-)
Second - There should be ritual similar to drow curse for other elves. Question is who would do such a thing and why? I do not see drow wanting some drow-wanabe-sun elf in neighborhood. Also I believe it would not make other elves into drow exactly - there would be some differences in final look and ablities (we also do not know how much of it was done later by Lloth as they are quite powerful - who would want that from a curse?)
For me High magic is not so special and anybody with enough skill can make it work (ie netheries). That is why they stole Nether scrolls ASAP so nobody can do what they do.
So to quote from the book: "While the original Dark Elves from before the Crown Wars were merely dusky elves with pale hair, the drow of the Underdark have, over the millennia of exile, darkened to obsidian and taken on their more familiar visages as enemies." - Good catch Irennan. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2019 : 22:14:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
OK first part - I agree that there should be possibility of reversing curse that made drow as they are now. Who can do it and on what scale is for debate (or later editions ;-)
Second - There should be ritual similar to drow curse for other elves. Question is who would do such a thing and why? I do not see drow wanting some drow-wanabe-sun elf in neighborhood. Also I believe it would not make other elves into drow exactly - there would be some differences in final look and ablities (we also do not know how much of it was done later by Lloth as they are quite powerful - who would want that from a curse?)
For me High magic is not so special and anybody with enough skill can make it work (ie netheries). That is why they stole Nether scrolls ASAP so nobody can do what they do.
So to quote from the book: "While the original Dark Elves from before the Crown Wars were merely dusky elves with pale hair, the drow of the Underdark have, over the millennia of exile, darkened to obsidian and taken on their more familiar visages as enemies." - Good catch Irennan.
Canonically, High Magic was originally limited to the non-drow elven races. No other race was capable of it.
Given the oft-repeated line about elves being part of the Weave, it makes sense to me that they have an exclusive type of magic. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2019 : 23:00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Canonically, High Magic was originally limited to the non-drow elven races. No other race was capable of it.
Given the oft-repeated line about elves being part of the Weave, it makes sense to me that they have an exclusive type of magic.
That is true and canon. How about say...sarrukh? |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2019 : 01:07:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Canonically, High Magic was originally limited to the non-drow elven races. No other race was capable of it.
Given the oft-repeated line about elves being part of the Weave, it makes sense to me that they have an exclusive type of magic.
Indeed, they are magical (somewhat) creatures. So it makes sense they can have a magic tradition built upon the practitioners being magical creatures of a particular sort, and thus inherently exclusive.
The same applies to the dragons, for that matter. So there's exclusive dragon magic that cannot be used as is by small two-legged folk (though often can be imitated).
So it follows that after dark elves got changed as magical creatures, the old elven ways should not work for them any more, just like exclusive elven magic does not work for dragons or vice versa.
Of course, it also follows that the drow may have their own.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
How about say...sarrukh?
Depends on whether they are magical creatures or their unique abilities come entirely from lots of knowledge and added augmentations, right? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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doccarnby
Acolyte
16 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2019 : 01:43:41
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I was going to suggest the rules for "lesser" drow from the PgTF appendix minus the spell-like abilities and light blindness, but checking it out that's just a standard elf with darkvision and a will save bonus against spells. I guess then it becomes a question of if the dark elves had darkvision before they were cursed or not.
I'm inclined to say yes, though I'm not sure canon bears me out, if only because it seems unlikely to me that a curse would give a boon like that, and it seems phenomenally cruel (though, as completely innocent dark elves were included...) to banish them into the Underdark without it. I suppose Lolth could have done it, but she doesn't seem like the kind to give out gifts like that freely, and mutation due to faerzress would take some time presumably and I don't think time is something they'd have had, bumbling about down there without being able to see. The casualties would be catastrophic. Well, there's always Eilistraee. I could see her intervening to save them. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2019 : 05:39:47
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They were dusky-skinned green elves as I recall.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2019 : 11:01:14
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quote:
Originally posted by doccarnby
I was going to suggest the rules for "lesser" drow from the PgTF appendix minus the spell-like abilities and light blindness, but checking it out that's just a standard elf with darkvision and a will save bonus against spells. I guess then it becomes a question of if the dark elves had darkvision before they were cursed or not.
I'm inclined to say yes, though I'm not sure canon bears me out, if only because it seems unlikely to me that a curse would give a boon like that, and it seems phenomenally cruel (though, as completely innocent dark elves were included...) to banish them into the Underdark without it. I suppose Lolth could have done it, but she doesn't seem like the kind to give out gifts like that freely, and mutation due to faerzress would take some time presumably and I don't think time is something they'd have had, bumbling about down there without being able to see. The casualties would be catastrophic. Well, there's always Eilistraee. I could see her intervening to save them.
It could be both -- they had darkvision before being banished, but it grew stronger after they were banished. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2019 : 16:13:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by doccarnby
I was going to suggest the rules for "lesser" drow from the PgTF appendix minus the spell-like abilities and light blindness, but checking it out that's just a standard elf with darkvision and a will save bonus against spells. I guess then it becomes a question of if the dark elves had darkvision before they were cursed or not.
I'm inclined to say yes, though I'm not sure canon bears me out, if only because it seems unlikely to me that a curse would give a boon like that, and it seems phenomenally cruel (though, as completely innocent dark elves were included...) to banish them into the Underdark without it. I suppose Lolth could have done it, but she doesn't seem like the kind to give out gifts like that freely, and mutation due to faerzress would take some time presumably and I don't think time is something they'd have had, bumbling about down there without being able to see. The casualties would be catastrophic. Well, there's always Eilistraee. I could see her intervening to save them.
It could be both -- they had darkvision before being banished, but it grew stronger after they were banished.
Sadly they had all infravision before they got banished to 3ed. Than rules said low-light or dark vision and elves got first and drow second as it fitted them better. For dark elves I would go for low-light as any other elves. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2019 : 16:58:17
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I've been dwelling on the statement that elves are tied to the weave (and the one about dragons as well) for a long time.
I had often thought that rituals / high magic were not using the weave at all, but were actually accessing raw magic. However the point about dragons having their own magic that others cannot access does make me question this theory.
Looking at the novels and ancient elves and the cormanthyr sourcebook it is clear that elves from ages past were more powerful than elves now, they lived longer, they had more magic and more innate abilities.
So the question is, what does tied to the weave mean, and why have elves lost some of that power.
A dragon has spell like abilities and the innate ability to cast spells. That they can use magic that no one else can is nothing new, there have always been spells hidden from others and the church of mystra and the chosen has made it their job to ensure that everyone can access these spells (unless they are too dangerous).
So if dragons are tied to the weave and elves are tied to the weave then either spell like abilities is the manifestation of that tie, or an innate casting ability is part if that manifestation.
I'm tempted to say that spell like abilities are manifestations of raw magic infecting a child before it is born and being passed down generations. These are the wild talents Ed spoke of.
That means being tied to the weave is the innate ability to cast spells that presumably increases with age. Which means that perhaps ancient elves could cast spells as easily as we write our name, and perhaps this augmented the learned spellcasting ability of elven wizards to levels others could not reach (a concept of high magic).
Rituals I still think are rituals (weaving raw magic into spells), and are open to anyone (although elves have a few special rituals they devised that others don't know of). It is dangerous to handle raw magic and that's why there are back lashes and consequences.
What does this mean for the drow. Well it depends upon when the elves were tied to the weave. I personally think it is when the seldarine lords came to the elven court from faerie. They allied with the elves and helped them defeat the illythir, probably by tying them to the weave to give them greater spellxasting ability.
This means the drow do not and never did possess this, but the elves of the modern age have since lost that ability.
The drow however interned with devils and demons, and from this they acquired numerous spell like abilities that remain with then because they have not mixed with humans like the elves did.
Just my thoughts. Need some refining still |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2019 : 18:07:32
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What I find strange about this is that there is no evidence of any special ties of elves to Weave other than their own opinion. It is said many times in canon but normal elves do not have any abilities to speak of. They are partially resistant to some magic and can find secret doors but that is it. Where is any spell-like ability or innate spellcasting like gnomes have?
I can agree they have easier way to magic as some are more inteligent and have a long lifespan so they have more time to learn it. Even Coronal Irithyl is said to had to learn magic he got access to as Coronal.
High magic is probably hard to learn and as not anyone can cast 9th level spells the same should be for High magic. If you do not have a teacher or knowledge about it than it should be even harder that make easy explanation why there are no human high mages around every corner.
Another reason is Mystra - goddess of magic that openly states she wants magic for everyone. Why would she accept a kind of magic only for elves? That would betray her own ideal...
You can say Corellion gave it to his people but who is there to deny it to others then? Can Mystra do the same? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2019 : 00:21:33
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Elves in Faerun knew magic long before humans learned magic. They used magic to arrive from somewhere else (Spelljammer or the Feywild or whatever) while humans were still primitives.
And they already had High Magic before procuring a set of Nether Scrolls. How else could they have constructed mythals older than Netheril? How else could they have transmuted their Nether Scrolls (indestructible artifacts) into a living and growing source of magic? |
[/Ayrik] |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2019 : 01:54:17
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There was another bit on the nature and habits of the pre-Descent dark elves, from Ed.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
What I find strange about this is that there is no evidence of any special ties of elves to Weave other than their own opinion.
Well, "ties to the Weave" is synonymous with "magical creature".
quote:
It is said many times in canon but normal elves do not have any abilities to speak of.
"Any abilities" is not the same as "hurr, fireball". The elven magical abilities include metabolism boosts and resistances. Which weaken in areas of over-drained Weave.
quote:
Whenever an elf was in or directly underneath a floating city, they lost many of their innate abilities, including their sleep resistance and 50% of their charm resistance.
- Netheril
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2019 : 12:34:51
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quote:
[quote]Originally posted by doccarnby
I was going to suggest the rules for "lesser" drow from the PgTF appendix minus the spell-like abilities and light blindness, but checking it out that's just a standard elf with darkvision and a will save bonus against spells. I guess then it becomes a question of if the dark elves had darkvision before they were cursed or not.
I'm inclined to say yes, though I'm not sure canon bears me out, if only because it seems unlikely to me that a curse would give a boon like that, and it seems phenomenally cruel (though, as completely innocent dark elves were included...) to banish them into the Underdark without it. I suppose Lolth could have done it, but she doesn't seem like the kind to give out gifts like that freely, and mutation due to faerzress would take some time presumably and I don't think time is something they'd have had, bumbling about down there without being able to see. The casualties would be catastrophic. Well, there's always Eilistraee. I could see her intervening to save them.
It was indeed a catastrophe, and most drow lived like savages for a couple millennia after the descent IIRC. Eilistraee had been reduced to non-relevance by the sun elves, with the genocide of the Miyeritari, her people (the Dark Disaster). Per Demihuman Deities, she and her church wouldn't recover from that for millennia (her church virtually collapsed post-Miyeritar). Furthermore, the church of Ghaunadaur and of Lolth started hunting down followers of other faiths, limiting even more what Eilistraee and what remained of her followers could have done. With that, whatever she did (it's very likely that she tried, given that DD says she's likely to directly help people in practical ways) it could have only achieved so much, if she was alone. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Oct 2019 12:42:21 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2019 : 14:22:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Elves in Faerun knew magic long before humans learned magic. They used magic to arrive from somewhere else (Spelljammer or the Feywild or whatever) while humans were still primitives.
And they already had High Magic before procuring a set of Nether Scrolls. How else could they have constructed mythals older than Netheril? How else could they have transmuted their Nether Scrolls (indestructible artifacts) into a living and growing source of magic?
See what you are doing? It is tantrum not a evidence.
Nether Scrolls were taken from elven ruins in Aryvandaar by netheril humans so it is clear elves had them in one of the oldest kingdoms of elven kind. Nobody knows for how long. Transmuting of Nether Scrolls was clearly a way to hide them even more from humans of Netheril as they now had means to look for it. Ever wandered what was Crown against Scepter wars about? How Dark Disaster happen?
Also note that elves were enslaved by dragons immediately after they arrived (only dark elves were noted to make deal with dragons). And only much later they were able to fight dragons with high magic and not in fair fight but cursing them globaly at hidden place far north. Almost all avariel died while defending this ritual place from dragons (and who knows how much others died there).
Elves themselves would say they were brought to Faerun by their gods so no magic on their part is needed and planar portals do not even need any high magic to begin with.
I do not see elves as magical creatures at all. All I see is a group of supremancist who used magic equivalent of nuclear weapons to any enemy they seen and who finally destroyed their own civilization with it and run to their special place to keep their pride.
To their "magical abilities"- in 2ed they had +1 Dex, -1 Con. In 3ed they have +2 Dex -2 Con (sun elves have +2 Int instead of Dex). Only special is their longevity and very mild resistance to magic (immunity to sleep magic from the simple fact they do not sleep-no magic). Other than that they have only long stories of how they were great and special and can do things nobody else can. I would say they did things nobody wants to repeat...
Even their stats say they are no more intelligent or wise than human and do that consistently with every edition.
If you wish than keep your fantasy of Tolkien's elves in the Realms but there is no evidence of them in given lore except for their own viewpoint and tales. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2019 : 16:46:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
If you wish than keep your fantasy of Tolkien's elves in the Realms but there is no evidence of them in given lore except for their own viewpoint and tales.
No evidence beyond repeated canonical statements, magic that only they can wield, and the fact that they, unlike any other race, have literally reshaped an entire continent. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2019 : 17:36:34
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| @wrigley... lol, I think you are mistaking me for someone who likes elves. You'd find, reading my other posts, that quite the opposite is true. Endless elf-centric Realmslore is what moved me away from the setting towards Planescape and Darksun. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2019 : 19:18:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
If you wish than keep your fantasy of Tolkien's elves in the Realms but there is no evidence of them in given lore except for their own viewpoint and tales.
No evidence beyond repeated canonical statements, magic that only they can wield, and the fact that they, unlike any other race, have literally reshaped an entire continent.
While I agree that the elves have been repeatedly stated to be creatures of the Weave, their magical feats aren't anything unique. The Imaskari blocked an entire effing pantheon, including greater deities, from accessing Toril, until Ao itself decided to intervene. I'd say that's a bigger feat than causing a cataclysm to get your pretty paradise island, yet the Imaskari were but humans. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2019 : 21:19:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
If you wish than keep your fantasy of Tolkien's elves in the Realms but there is no evidence of them in given lore except for their own viewpoint and tales.
No evidence beyond repeated canonical statements, magic that only they can wield, and the fact that they, unlike any other race, have literally reshaped an entire continent.
Sure but think about this - Ed himself told us many times that most of the books are written from perspective of biased narrative so almost all books about elves are from elven POV. Also we all count into canon books where characters proclaim things that are not true or partialy true. Same goes for lore as we all know they usualy say only half of it.
You should not take literaly all that is written as a FR product and I would have hoped you of all should know that Master of Mischief. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2019 : 21:22:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
@wrigley... lol, I think you are mistaking me for someone who likes elves. You'd find, reading my other posts, that quite the opposite is true. Endless elf-centric Realmslore is what moved me away from the setting towards Planescape and Darksun.
I am used to that from other settings. If you read carefully enough than you could see a lot of dark things slipping among their propaganda.
BTW have you read Witcher books? There are my kind of elves... |
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Pre-Descent dark elf abilities?
