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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Sep 2019 : 03:45:08
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Ah, well, looks like Xvim has been around since the official beginning at least.
Was there any other big details between OGB and FR6? I don't have FR2, FR3, or FR5. |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2019 : 05:37:40
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The only other "big detail" is a mention in the Westgate Timeline, which was a web enhancement for the 2E sourcebook "Cloak & Dagger":
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010327d
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2019 : 01:01:05
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Well, I've spent a few days between work and other things to dig in and the other major mention that hasn't been brought up is the avatar (or actual embodiment) of Xvim in approximately 1300 DR in the Spine of the World. His cleric, a cambion no less, has a very close relationship with Xvim at the time and depending on the outcome of the events of that Xvim himself appears to confront the heroes trying to stop the Legion of the Chimera, which apparently worshiped Xvim due to his half-breed status more than the portfolio he would later assume. I'll add that this is one of the few mentions of Xvim having clerics prior to the death of Bane or having an agenda that was outside that of being directed to perform some action or another by Bane. The events described in Dreams of Red Wizards occurs after Icewind Dale II, even though the latter was published a decade later.
So we can get a pretty decent timeline of Xvim if we put all these things together. |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2021 : 04:44:50
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So what are possibilities?
A. It is as it seems, Xvim is dead, Bane restored.
A1. Bane absorbed Xvim, but due to his weakened state couldn't "digest" him and was excessively influenced. (see also: Selvetarm vs. Zanassu)
B. It's all show, Xvim impersonates Bane as more popular and to prevent attempts at resurrection. (see also: British Monarchy)
C. Another deity hijacked them both, took the name of dead Bane. Possibly ate too much Xvim in process. (just like A1)
Anything else? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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maransreth
Learned Scribe
Australia
157 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2021 : 09:36:21
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According to something I heard on the Mages and Sages podcast recently is that Bane is Bane resurrected through Xvim at the start of 3e, however Xvim did not die and is walking around the Realms causing mischief. can't remember all the details, but Xvim is still around, just cant remember if he is viewed as mortal, immortal or deity of some type.
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2021 : 12:58:17
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George and I put our thoughts on Bane's origin in Jergal: Lord of the End of Everything, on DM's Guild.
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2021 : 16:59:39
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quote:
Originally posted by maransreth
According to something I heard on the Mages and Sages podcast recently is that Bane is Bane resurrected through Xvim at the start of 3e, however Xvim did not die and is walking around the Realms causing mischief. can't remember all the details, but Xvim is still around, just cant remember if he is viewed as mortal, immortal or deity of some type.
The official stance is that Bane burst out of Xvim. That's in the 3E FRCS. However, in 5E, they've given us "all the deities are back!" without explaining what that really means (since deities like Murdane, Kipputytto, Tyche, and Valigan Thirdborn are not back, it clearly shows that WotC's "all" does not meet the accepted definition of the word).
So, officially, Bane is back and Xvim can also be assumed to be back, though this seems contradictory.
As I detailed previously in this discussion, though, there are a lot of hints that returned Bane and original Bane are not the same entity. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2021 : 04:14:15
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If Bane is indeed like Druaga...then what was IN Xvim simply became Bane again.
And despite the fact that Bane erupted out of Xvim (canon right?)...that doesn't mean that Xvim's regeneration couldn't have brought him back too?
Just thoughts. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2021 : 04:24:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
If Bane is indeed like Druaga...then what was IN Xvim simply became Bane again.
And despite the fact that Bane erupted out of Xvim (canon right?)...that doesn't mean that Xvim's regeneration couldn't have brought him back too?
Just thoughts.
I question that because of the differences between Bane 1.0 and Bane 2.0.
I also think it very interesting that it was worshippers of Xvim that had the vision showing his apparent demise. People who'd continued to worship Bane didn't see his rebirth, and neither did those former Banites who became Cyricists. It was only the worshippers that would need to convert from Xvim to Bane that saw his rebirth. Almost like it was a show, something staged to cause their conversion, and not something that really happened... |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2021 : 05:43:16
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I see your point actually as the most logical Wooly...that "Bane" is actually Xvim trying to use his dad's name to increase his power.
I was just thinking of what sort of "retcon" may be applied. lol |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2021 : 00:33:23
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The following is a sidebar from something I'm writing. It accordingly isn't remotely canon:
The Legend of Iyachtu
On the origins of the demigod Iyachtu Xvim, two traditions exist. One says that he was the spawn of Bane and a demon, while another says he was born of the union of Bane with a fallen paladin. Few ever thought the question of more than idle interest even before the Godson was consumed in 1372 DR.
The Sages of Iyachtu, however, teach that there were two stories because there were actually two Godsons. There was the brutish, rebellious, and impulsive half-demon Xvim, and the crafty, loyal, and far-sighted Iyachtu. In this telling, Xvim was a disfavored thug sent forth by Bane as an enforcer, while Iyachtu remained in his father’s court as a trusted lieutenant. Xvim’s ambition was marked by many brazen plots and efforts, while canny Iyachtu simply served Bane well and loyally.
Then Bane died, and Xvim launched a new bid for power. He hunted down every bit of Bane’s essence he could find, seized every worshiper from Cyric he could, and made a grand name for himself as the New Darkness.
When the time was right, Iyachtu, Castellan of the Black Bastion, graciously invited his brother to Bane’s old realm to seat himself in Bane’s throne, to rule in their father’s place.
Upon Xvim taking his father’s seat, long-laid contingencies were activated, and the essence that Xvim had so obligingly gathered consumed him. The resurrected Bane looked upon his only living son and smiled. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2021 : 05:59:10
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| In the Ixinos book I wrote up with Markustay, I hinted that Xvim was actually the son of a Ixinosan Queen named Iya that a priest of Bane kidnapped and gifted to Bane. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2021 : 10:57:06
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| I've suggested that the fallen paladin was a tiefling, and that carrying Bane's child caused her to go full demon. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2021 : 18:08:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by maransreth
According to something I heard on the Mages and Sages podcast recently is that Bane is Bane resurrected through Xvim at the start of 3e, however Xvim did not die and is walking around the Realms causing mischief. can't remember all the details, but Xvim is still around, just cant remember if he is viewed as mortal, immortal or deity of some type.
The official stance is that Bane burst out of Xvim. That's in the 3E FRCS. However, in 5E, they've given us "all the deities are back!" without explaining what that really means (since deities like Murdane, Kipputytto, Tyche, and Valigan Thirdborn are not back, it clearly shows that WotC's "all" does not meet the accepted definition of the word).
So, officially, Bane is back and Xvim can also be assumed to be back, though this seems contradictory.
As I detailed previously in this discussion, though, there are a lot of hints that returned Bane and original Bane are not the same entity.
Just a thought kinda, and I only thought about it because you mentioned "Valigan Thirdborn isn't back". Maybe he is, just under a different name and in a different pantheon. We have that "all the gods are back", but not necessarily "and returned to every pantheon they were ever in". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2021 : 19:19:50
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just a thought kinda, and I only thought about it because you mentioned "Valigan Thirdborn isn't back". Maybe he is, just under a different name and in a different pantheon. We have that "all the gods are back", but not necessarily "and returned to every pantheon they were ever in".
Why would he return under a different name? And if he is back under a different name or in a different pantheon, why has there been no mention of this "new" deity?
And what about Murdane, or Ibrandul, or Kiputytto, or even Tyche? Those are just the fallen Realms deities I can think of off the top of my head.
Until I see something saying these deities are back, I'm sticking with my "WotC's definition of 'all' doesn't match the dictionary definition" stance.
I'm not saying I want these deities back -- I'm happy with the pantheon as it existed in 2E/3E (deferring to 2E in case of conflict). I'm just saying that WotC's "All the gods are back!" statement was poorly thought out and needs clarification, because it clearly is not the case. You can't even say that all the gods from the start of 2E are back -- though Leira's back and the Dead Three appear to be back (I'm skeptical on how divine they really are), Ibrandul died during the same timeframe and hasn't been mentioned as being back. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Jun 2021 19:26:22 |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2021 : 20:18:35
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To avoid straying off topic too far, taken literally, “all gods are back” could really become problematic. First, there are inconsistencies between editions as to what amounts to a “god.” Is Borem and Marem returned? Were these entities even “gods” or whatever exarchs are/were? How about Karsus, he was a deity, if only momentarily. Is Gilgeam back terrorizing the folk of the Old Empires?
To bring it back to Xvim, one would assume that he has either “returned” or never left, as “Xvim
is Bane”—a la Woolly’s theory, then would the OG Bane be returned?
Or, does this whole debate lend more credence to the “lore” of these days isn’t well founded or contemplated based on existing lore, but just thrown out willy-nilly. |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2021 : 20:44:45
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If the stated purpose of the Second Sundering was to undo the Spellplague (4e), then I will tend to take that "all gods are back" to mean that all the gods that were around for 2e/3e are back. Bane would be back with a possible demi-god Xvim suddenly appearing somewhere (a lost alter somewhere) that could lead to a Xvim-based heresy within the Church of Bane.
Of course, this means that it is the real Bane that is back and he is making some slight changes to make sure the Xvimilar convert to worship Bane (and thus stave off that above mentioned heresy). |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2021 : 21:11:56
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
If the stated purpose of the Second Sundering was to undo the Spellplague (4e), then I will tend to take that "all gods are back" to mean that all the gods that were around for 2e/3e are back. Bane would be back with a possible demi-god Xvim suddenly appearing somewhere (a lost alter somewhere) that could lead to a Xvim-based heresy within the Church of Bane.
Of course, this means that it is the real Bane that is back and he is making some slight changes to make sure the Xvimilar convert to worship Bane (and thus stave off that above mentioned heresy).
My personal interpretation is that the deities of the 3E era are back, and that the "all gods are back" shtick was more about undoing 4E's thing of "these two gods who are kinda sorta maybe alike are actually one deity!" than it was about returning fallen deities to life. Of course, the Dead Three still make that interpretation problematic, since they fell earlier... The flip side, though, is that with them "choosing" to be avatars, it gives some wiggle room on the nature of their return.
I don't know that I would DM in the 5E Realms, but if I did, I'd very much run with my idea that the Dead Three only claim to be deities, and that they're trying to recover their lost divinity. |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2021 : 21:23:14
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| Yeah, I avoid a lot of this mess by just setting my games in 1367-8 DR. |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2021 : 22:34:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just a thought kinda, and I only thought about it because you mentioned "Valigan Thirdborn isn't back". Maybe he is, just under a different name and in a different pantheon. We have that "all the gods are back", but not necessarily "and returned to every pantheon they were ever in".
Why would he return under a different name? And if he is back under a different name or in a different pantheon, why has there been no mention of this "new" deity?
And what about Murdane, or Ibrandul, or Kiputytto, or even Tyche? Those are just the fallen Realms deities I can think of off the top of my head.
Until I see something saying these deities are back, I'm sticking with my "WotC's definition of 'all' doesn't match the dictionary definition" stance.
I'm not saying I want these deities back -- I'm happy with the pantheon as it existed in 2E/3E (deferring to 2E in case of conflict). I'm just saying that WotC's "All the gods are back!" statement was poorly thought out and needs clarification, because it clearly is not the case. You can't even say that all the gods from the start of 2E are back -- though Leira's back and the Dead Three appear to be back (I'm skeptical on how divine they really are), Ibrandul died during the same timeframe and hasn't been mentioned as being back.
Oh, I agree that all doesn't mean all. However, on the original statement about like Valigan... it may be that he's not up in say the Faerunian pantheon area because he'd be challenging another god like Cyric and Valigan just isn't "strong" enough to "fight a fight on multiple fronts"... so maybe he's returned in a place like Anchorome, Zakhara, or the Utter East, etc.. under another name or even the same name.
Ibrandul may be back as well (he had a chosen in one of the pre-sundering adventures), but maybe only in the underdark has he returned and maybe only to a select group of worshippers.
Just saying that we have the opportunity to do a lot of different ideas, so don't necessarily tie ourselves to anything yet if WotC won't either. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 04 Jun 2021 22:37:51 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 16:56:58
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Apparently he’s not back, but never left?
Just reigned in significantly by daddy Bane? |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2021 : 00:32:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Hmm, according to the Mages & Sages Podcast, Ed Greenwood doesn't confirm Xvim being alive, but offers his "belief" that sightings of Xvim present the probability that Xvim was brought back to life by Bane.
If Bane resurrected Xvim, perhaps the son might not have the power level that he originally held, perhaps being brought back as a mortal or fiendish agent.
I saw Xvim and some bushy haired fat man wearing a sequinned body suit going by the name Elvys, they were putting on a show on stage in the former Netherese city of Doubloon, known as Luneira, that is floating amongst the Tears of Selune. He should NOT sing... he's very bad at it. 
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2021 : 01:30:44
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Xvim was still worshiped in Phlan in the 15th century. They called the god Bane, but the iconography, rituals, priesthood, etc. were all that of Xvimlar clergy.
They only paid a nominal tribute to the orthodox Church of Bane in Mulmaster to avoid being branded as heretics.
"The priests of the Lyceum of the Black Lord in Phlan subscribe to the heresy that Bane was utterly destroyed by Torm during the Time of Troubles. The being they worship as Bane today, the heretical priests say, is in fact none other than the Godson of Bane, Iyachtu Xvim, having adopted his father’s name to more quickly achieve the status and power of a greater god." -Monument of the Ancients, Dungeon Magazine #170 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2021 : 04:27:03
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Xvim was still worshiped in Phlan in the 15th century. They called the god Bane, but the iconography, rituals, priesthood, etc. were all that of Xvimlar clergy.
They only paid a nominal tribute to the orthodox Church of Bane in Mulmaster to avoid being branded as heretics.
"The priests of the Lyceum of the Black Lord in Phlan subscribe to the heresy that Bane was utterly destroyed by Torm during the Time of Troubles. The being they worship as Bane today, the heretical priests say, is in fact none other than the Godson of Bane, Iyachtu Xvim, having adopted his father’s name to more quickly achieve the status and power of a greater god." -Monument of the Ancients, Dungeon Magazine #170
Holy carp! My theory has official backing!
(Obviously, I'm not saying this proves my theory -- it does not. It just adds another layer of proof.)
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2021 : 14:21:46
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| It isn't REALLY Xvim. It is Eldath because the only way to truly have peace is if you control and dominate everyone to MAKE them have peace. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2021 : 23:52:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
It isn't REALLY Xvim. It is Eldath because the only way to truly have peace is if you control and dominate everyone to MAKE them have peace.
Or it could be Chauntea, trying to control and dominate everyone to MAKE them have peas.
Give peas a chance! |
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Questions about Iyachtu Xvim post-1372
