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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jun 2021 : 03:20:58
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The insidiousness of Bane is that he's convinced Chauntea as long as he's in charge of the universe, people everywhere will eat their sprouts and like them.
Or else. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2021 : 03:41:08
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The insidiousness of Bane is that he's convinced Chauntea as long as he's in charge of the universe, people everywhere will eat their sprouts and like them.
Or else.
Of course, it's only due to Leira's illusions that people even think sprouts are edible... |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Jun 2021 03:49:55 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2021 : 08:41:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Xvim was still worshiped in Phlan in the 15th century. They called the god Bane, but the iconography, rituals, priesthood, etc. were all that of Xvimlar clergy.
They only paid a nominal tribute to the orthodox Church of Bane in Mulmaster to avoid being branded as heretics.
"The priests of the Lyceum of the Black Lord in Phlan subscribe to the heresy that Bane was utterly destroyed by Torm during the Time of Troubles. The being they worship as Bane today, the heretical priests say, is in fact none other than the Godson of Bane, Iyachtu Xvim, having adopted his father’s name to more quickly achieve the status and power of a greater god." -Monument of the Ancients, Dungeon Magazine #170
Holy carp! My theory has official backing!
(Obviously, I'm not saying this proves my theory -- it does not. It just adds another layer of proof.)
I guess Brian R. James threw you a bone Wooly. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 26 Jun 2021 08:42:00 |
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rangerstranger
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2021 : 20:27:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Xvim was still worshiped in Phlan in the 15th century. They called the god Bane, but the iconography, rituals, priesthood, etc. were all that of Xvimlar clergy.
They only paid a nominal tribute to the orthodox Church of Bane in Mulmaster to avoid being branded as heretics.
"The priests of the Lyceum of the Black Lord in Phlan subscribe to the heresy that Bane was utterly destroyed by Torm during the Time of Troubles. The being they worship as Bane today, the heretical priests say, is in fact none other than the Godson of Bane, Iyachtu Xvim, having adopted his father’s name to more quickly achieve the status and power of a greater god." -Monument of the Ancients, Dungeon Magazine #170
Holy carp! My theory has official backing!
(Obviously, I'm not saying this proves my theory -- it does not. It just adds another layer of proof.)
Iyachtu Xvim was also posing as Bane when he whispered to Teldorn Darkhope to conquer Mintar in 1362.
In Empires of the Shining Sea, On Page 155, the first paragraph after "Notable Clergy and Churches" it says "The Temple of the Dark Lord, the temple at which Teldorn Darkhope received the visions that launched him on his schemes of conquest. Unknown to Darkhope, it was not Bane who was whispering tales of conquest and reward into his ears--it was actually Iyachtu Xvim, the Godson of Bane. Darkhope remains unaware of the deception to this day, but he suspects Bane may not be of the pawer he once was."
This definitely sets the precedent that Xvim is not above pretending to be his father in effort to further his own cause. Xvim may not have intended for Teldorn to believe he was Bane when whispering into his ear but he seems to have just ran with it after seeing how much fervor he created with in Teldorn and how effectively he was in conquering Mintar. Also, I find it interesting that Teldorn started his conquest of Mintar on Midwinter night, 1362, and Bane supposedly returned on Midwinter night, 1372. |
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redking
Learned Scribe
141 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2021 : 13:18:48
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| Xvim is Bane. Bane is Xvim. Wooly Rupert is almost certainly correct. The 'return' of Bane makes no sense. Ao himself made sure that Bane would not return. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2021 : 13:44:51
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quote:
Originally posted by redking
Xvim is Bane. Bane is Xvim. Wooly Rupert is almost certainly correct. The 'return' of Bane makes no sense. Ao himself made sure that Bane would not return.
The more bits and pieces I find, the more I'm convinced that my theory was what the designers of the time intended. The Teldorn Darkhope info goes back to 2E, so the groundwork for this was laid a while ago.
Unfortunately, the current designers don't seem to have paid any attention to things like that, and their "All* the deities are back!" stance is just horribly problematic, even disregarding the Xvim/Bane thing.
I put that asterisk there because "all" clearly has not meant every prior deity, and apparently not even all of those that fell during the ToT. |
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redking
Learned Scribe
141 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2021 : 14:43:06
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| The sudden return of Bane was most unwelcome. If this Bane is actually Xvim, it makes a lot of sense. You could even have a situation where 'Bane is Xvim' is a secret teaching of the contemporary Banite Church, with the highest ranks of the clergy let in on the secret that Bane is secretly the Godson. |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2021 : 14:47:05
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Cloak & Dagger is really the only product that details Xvim’s clergy after the re-establishment of the church as an heir to Bane and rival to Cyric for that title.
There were so many great hooks and plots developed—thoughtfully—that seemingly got flushed with the 3E FRCS. Instead of developing the ideas laid out further, most were discarded and completely unexpected things tossed out, like the sudden rise of Sharran cults and a returned Netheril (consisting of Shades no less.)
There is definitely a method you could see to have Bane return based on some of the actions that are described in C&D, especially the slaying of the banelich by Fzoul and absorbing the powers, which we know are actually aspects of Bane that were bestowed into the banelichs. That we never got even a basic metaphysical reasoning for the return of Bane seems pretty weak. |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
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redking
Learned Scribe
141 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2021 : 14:56:54
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quote:
Originally posted by nblanton
Cloak & Dagger is really the only product that details Xvim’s clergy after the re-establishment of the church as an heir to Bane and rival to Cyric for that title.
There were so many great hooks and plots developed—thoughtfully—that seemingly got flushed with the 3E FRCS.
Cloak & Dagger was great. Its a real shame that the plot hooks never got developed. I was left scratching my head when 3E came around.
quote:
Originally posted by nblanton
That we never got even a basic metaphysical reasoning for the return of Bane seems pretty weak.
Yes. No explanation at all. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2021 : 15:45:57
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quote:
Originally posted by nblanton
Cloak & Dagger is really the only product that details Xvim’s clergy after the re-establishment of the church as an heir to Bane and rival to Cyric for that title.
There were so many great hooks and plots developed—thoughtfully—that seemingly got flushed with the 3E FRCS. Instead of developing the ideas laid out further, most were discarded and completely unexpected things tossed out, like the sudden rise of Sharran cults and a returned Netheril (consisting of Shades no less.)
There is definitely a method you could see to have Bane return based on some of the actions that are described in C&D, especially the slaying of the banelich by Fzoul and absorbing the powers, which we know are actually aspects of Bane that were bestowed into the banelichs. That we never got even a basic metaphysical reasoning for the return of Bane seems pretty weak.
The current thing, with the Dead Three "choosing" to be weaker avatars instead of more powerful deities, just doesn't make sense to me. That's why I think they -- and perhaps others of the supposedly returned deities -- didn't actually return as deities. I think they were given a choice to serve the current holder of their former portfolio in a reduced capacity, or to be an independent avatar with a possibility of re-ascending if they earn it.
Bane, with his gig being the ultimate tyrant, wasn't about to serve someone else, so he opted for the latter. And since he isn't about to let on that he's anything less than all that, he claims it was all some plot on his part.
Of course, that's just my spin to have something resembling a reasonable explanation. Nothing in current lore (such as it is) supports it, and I fully expect the current design team to do something to invalidate it. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2021 : 15:45:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The current thing, with the Dead Three "choosing" to be weaker avatars instead of more powerful deities, just doesn't make sense to me.
It's been implied by designers on social media that all three are being manipulated by Jergal somehow. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2021 : 17:45:42
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
It's been implied by designers on social media that all three are being manipulated by Jergal somehow.
I take this as Ed Greenwood trying to make sense of an utterly stupid plot. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2021 : 20:40:16
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The current thing, with the Dead Three "choosing" to be weaker avatars instead of more powerful deities, just doesn't make sense to me.
It's been implied by designers on social media that all three are being manipulated by Jergal somehow.
Jergal would have to be the greatest manipulator that ever lived if he convinced the self-proclaimed ultimate tyrant that dramatically weakening himself was a good idea.
I mean sure, it's possible Jergal is playing some game, but I don't think we can say this avatar shtick is his fault. |
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Questions about Iyachtu Xvim post-1372
