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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
622 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jul 2019 : 05:02:18
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So we all know that Xvim died on Midwinter of 1372 DR and that Bane emerged from his corpse. What I'm curious about is this.
1) Does he still have any bit of a following after death? I know before he died he had his father's portfolio, so it's unlikely that he would still be worshipped as such. If so, would it be possible for him to worshipped via the Servant of the Fallen feat?
2) If not that, what about existing as a vestige (per the 3.5 Edition Tome of Magic sourcebook)? I could see him as such giving any Binder abilities related to his cruelty, charm and fiendish nature.
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Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2019 : 05:17:00
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I theorize that Xvim did not die -- the whole thing was a grand con job. He took Bane's name, and thus got Bane's followers, and a considerable boost in power.
Here's my reasoning:
Bane 2.0 (the reborn Bane) does not act like Bane 1.0 (original Bane, or Bane Classic, if you will).
Bane 2.0 is not using the holy symbol that Bane 1.0 used.
Bane 1.0 favored red and black. Bane 2.0 favors green and black. Iyachtu Xvim, the Baneson, also favors green and black.
There is a critter called the Black Beast of Bane. In the write-up of that beast, it notes that Bane 2.0 -- like Xvim! -- likes manifestations involving evil critters and carnivores. That was not something Bane 1.0 favored. When I speculated on this in the Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land adventure discussion, Eric L Boyd's response was "Glad you're having fun speculating. ;-)". I admit that is far from an admission of anything, but it's also not a statement that I was on the wrong track.
The return of Bane was heralded by a vision of him bursting forth from Xvim, with those receiving the vision waking to find cold green flames enveloping their hands. Here's the real kicker, though: Only Xvim's faithful received this vision. Any who had remained faithful to Bane, or who had converted to Cyric, didn't receive that vision. So the only ones who saw it were the ones that would need to be convinced to switch from Xvim to Bane... And those worshippers would be the only ones Xvim could send a vision to. The strategy worked: most of them did convert to Bane.
Xvim has previously masqueraded as another deity, with the intent of getting more power out of the deal. And in the Realms, it's not uncommon for one deity to assume the identity of a fallen deity, even if the fallen one had nothing in common with the usurper -- like Shar and Ibrandul, Cyric and Leira, or Lolth and Moander.
So, Xvim's worshippers, whom he would want to retain while masquerading as someone else, received a vision directing them to worship the reborn Bane, who uses Xvim's colors, Xvim's favored manifestations, and who does not use Bane's old holy symbol.
And this is what got me to thinking.
There are three possible conclusions:
1) It really is Bane 1.0, with no trace of Xvim. Bane 1.0 has inexplicably decided to act like his son, rather than sticking with centuries of habit. It is my opinion that this is unlikely enough to be dismissed.
2) Bane 2.0 is some mix of Bane 1.0 and Xvim. Maybe he is a gestalt entity; pieces of both have combined to form something new. Or perhaps Xvim is not fully subsumed into Bane, and we are seeing parts of him leaking thru. This was my original theory.
3) Bane 1.0 is dead and gone. Bane 2.0 is Iyachtu Xvim impersonating his late father; he has gotten a huge power boost by using his father's name and reputation. This is my current, preferred theory.
Of course, it's all theories. I've taken some odd facts and assembled them into a picture I find pleasing, but that doesn't mean it's the only possible picture, and it doesn't mean I'm not reading into things. |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
270 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2019 : 10:33:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I theorize that Xvim did not die -- the whole thing was a grand con job. He took Bane's name, and thus got Bane's followers, and a considerable boost in power.
Here's my reasoning:
Bane 2.0 (the reborn Bane) does not act like Bane 1.0 (original Bane, or Bane Classic, if you will).
Bane 2.0 is not using the holy symbol that Bane 1.0 used.
Bane 1.0 favored red and black. Bane 2.0 favors green and black. Iyachtu Xvim, the Baneson, also favors green and black.
There is a critter called the Black Beast of Bane. In the write-up of that beast, it notes that Bane 2.0 -- like Xvim! -- likes manifestations involving evil critters and carnivores. That was not something Bane 1.0 favored. When I speculated on this in the Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land adventure discussion, Eric L Boyd's response was "Glad you're having fun speculating. ;-)". I admit that is far from an admission of anything, but it's also not a statement that I was on the wrong track.
The return of Bane was heralded by a vision of him bursting forth from Xvim, with those receiving the vision waking to find cold green flames enveloping their hands. Here's the real kicker, though: Only Xvim's faithful received this vision. Any who had remained faithful to Bane, or who had converted to Cyric, didn't receive that vision. So the only ones who saw it were the ones that would need to be convinced to switch from Xvim to Bane... And those worshippers would be the only ones Xvim could send a vision to. The strategy worked: most of them did convert to Bane.
Xvim has previously masqueraded as another deity, with the intent of getting more power out of the deal. And in the Realms, it's not uncommon for one deity to assume the identity of a fallen deity, even if the fallen one had nothing in common with the usurper -- like Shar and Ibrandul, Cyric and Leira, or Lolth and Moander.
So, Xvim's worshippers, whom he would want to retain while masquerading as someone else, received a vision directing them to worship the reborn Bane, who uses Xvim's colors, Xvim's favored manifestations, and who does not use Bane's old holy symbol.
And this is what got me to thinking.
There are three possible conclusions:
1) It really is Bane 1.0, with no trace of Xvim. Bane 1.0 has inexplicably decided to act like his son, rather than sticking with centuries of habit. It is my opinion that this is unlikely enough to be dismissed.
2) Bane 2.0 is some mix of Bane 1.0 and Xvim. Maybe he is a gestalt entity; pieces of both have combined to form something new. Or perhaps Xvim is not fully subsumed into Bane, and we are seeing parts of him leaking thru. This was my original theory.
3) Bane 1.0 is dead and gone. Bane 2.0 is Iyachtu Xvim impersonating his late father; he has gotten a huge power boost by using his father's name and reputation. This is my current, preferred theory.
Of course, it's all theories. I've taken some odd facts and assembled them into a picture I find pleasing, but that doesn't mean it's the only possible picture, and it doesn't mean I'm not reading into things.
Excellent ! |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2019 : 10:36:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Only Xvim's faithful received this vision. Any who had remained faithful to Bane, or who had converted to Cyric, didn't receive that vision. So the only ones who saw it were the ones that would need to be convinced to switch from Xvim to Bane... And those worshippers would be the only ones Xvim could send a vision to.
Not so.
quote:
So Saith Ed:
Every drow who sets out on an expedition to the surface, to raid, gets “tempted by Eilistraee in their dreams” [...]
So almost all drow learn of Eilistraee’s existence, and even receive a true picture of what it is (Lolth can’t stop that, because she too uses the dream-vision approach, and to try to block others from using it would rob her lay worshippers of much sanity, her priestesses of much daily control over those lay worshippers, and herself of much control over her priestesses).
The rest is sound, IMO.
quote:
2) Bane 2.0 is some mix of Bane 1.0 and Xvim. Maybe he is a gestalt entity; pieces of both have combined to form something new. Or perhaps Xvim is not fully subsumed into Bane, and we are seeing parts of him leaking thru. This was my original theory.
"Absorbing" another divine entity and being affected too much is a known "part of the game", indeed.
Selvetarm + Zanassu, Bast + Zandilar. Also, all the juggling Tempus and Lolth did with their respective sub-pantheons and portfolios, rather than trying to simply catch and crush any troublesome weaker powers.
quote:
3) Bane 1.0 is dead and gone. Bane 2.0 is Iyachtu Xvim impersonating his late father; he has gotten a huge power boost by using his father's name and reputation. This is my current, preferred theory.
He could give up on converting more Banites, but still want their faith, indeed. After all, they were remarkably persistent.
Another benefit: prevents further attempts to revive Bane. Who knows how many more tricks the old sneak prepared? Now it's "No need to scour Astral any more, my faithful. I'm with you again!" 
Not absolutely foolproof, but a strong move. If he can control Bane's undead guys and mislead mortals for less than a century, then it will be a moot point. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
622 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2019 : 04:05:33
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| Okay, so about my questions? |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2019 : 04:39:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Okay, so about my questions?
His followers converted to Bane, as noted in my response. All of them saw his apparent demise, so why wouldn't they convert?
I don't see why he couldn't be worshipped via the Servant of the Fallen feat, but given the mass conversion of his followers to Bane and the fact that his followers know he's dead (or claiming to be), I don't see why any would try to follow him, now.
Not familiar with the vestige thing, so I can't comment on that.
As I say, though, I think he's faking the whole thing, and that anything other than worshipping Bane would be discouraged. At the very least, I'd expect that someone trying to worship Xvim would be proclaimed a heretic, and that Bane would send some of his loyal followers with a very pointed "convert or die" message. (Even if Bane 2.0 truly is Bane reborn and not Xvim impersonating Daddy, I'd expect the same to hold true: "convert or die.") |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
622 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2019 : 18:16:50
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Sheesh, does nobody else know about pact magic and vestiges here?  |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
Edited by - Galuf the Dwarf on 29 Jul 2019 18:17:20 |
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BrennonGoldeye
Learned Scribe
105 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2019 : 17:33:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Sheesh, does nobody else know about pact magic and vestiges here?
Yes, although I personally wouldn't consider Xvim a candidate for a Vestige, the fact that Karsus still exists as one points to it being a possibility. Personally I like the Idea that Bane 1.0 is dead and he would be the one lurking as a vestige somewhere. |
Sam |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2019 : 18:20:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Sheesh, does nobody else know about pact magic and vestiges here?
I do, and I find them truly interesting. Personally, I also like and WANT Wooly's theories to be true. I in particular am infatuated with the idea that Bane 2.0 is Xvim and Gilgeam 2.0 is in fact Bane 1.0. Basically, deific chicanery. Along these lines, Gilgeam 2.0/Bane 1.0 is possibly wearing an artifact of Gilgeam's in order to impersonate him via a deific form of pact magic which is "binding" an essence of Gilgeam to him, and he hopes to retake his position as Bane.
Along these lines, it might be interesting that a result of Xvim's actions, his "mortal" form of Xvim was cast to the place where vestiges go and he can thus be bound. As to what powers to give the vestige, I'm unsure. Maybe some ability to generate a magical temporary "echo" of the "sword of souls". I would focus on his demonic nature and have anyone showing his sign appear to have brown, scaly skin. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2019 : 01:31:50
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| Post Sundering he could be alive again, but not mentioned yet. |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
622 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2019 : 05:27:55
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Okay, apologies for the lack of a sigil, but I don't know how to draw one that works, let alone how to upload it onto here. Otherwise, here's what I had in mind for him as a vestige, mostly the gameplay-related info for now.
Iyachtu Xvim, the Hated Son
Vestige Level: 4th
Binding DC: 23
Iyachtu Xvim is a more recent vestige. However, his momentary time as a deity as well as the turbulent events of his life and death have left him feeling somewhat detached from his former life. As a vestige, he gives binders abilities to make opponents cower in fear, direct an opponent's anger at certain targets, or experience some of the resilience of his demonic heritage.
Legend: Iyachtu Xvim was the product of the dreaded Lord of Darkness, Bane, god of strife, hatred and tyranny. Curious as to his own fate, Bane stole the Tablets of Fate from the overdeity Ao with the aid of his subordinate Bhaal, god of murder, and found out about his apparent demise. Bane then coupled with a demoness to produce Xvim. After the cataclysmic event known as the Time of Troubles, Bane was destroyed and his son Xvim came to prominence, namely after the Baneson claimed his father's divine portfolios of hatred and tyranny from Bane's successor, the mortal-turned god Cyric, as well as adopting the portfolio of fear. Though he did become worshipped by the Zhentarim of Zhentil Keep in the Moonsea and the Legion of the Chimera in the North, Xvim proved to be a pale shadow of his father's image as a god. All that seemingly came to an end on Midwinter in the year 1372 DR when Xvim apparently combusted and Bane emerged from his son's corpse. Xvim was nothing more than a vessel for his terrible father's own rebirth. Upon his return, Bane regained many of his lost worshippers, his planar realm of Banehold in the Barrens of Doom and Despair, and his own divine portfolio that his ineffectual son had retained in his absence (as well as his son's portfolio of fear). Xvim, however, seemed to be no more. What few realized is that some of Xvim's demonic essence coalesced with his body's destruction and, having no other place to call its own, vanished into a zone between planes where it now rests as a vestige, lost of divine purpose and much of his original desires.
Special Requirement: To summon Xvim, you must not worship Cyric, god of murder, lies, deception, illusion and intrigue. This is due to how said deity vied for control of the portfolios of strife, hatred and tyranny . If you do, he will not answer your summons.
Manifestation: A foul, black smoke appears from Iyachtu Xvim's sigil as he is summoned. Within that massive cloud of smoke, the binder will witness the two green glowing orbs that take the appearance of stylized eyes. When Xvim speaks, he does so in harsh whispers, growing impatient and bellicose with the binder. Though he does speak in whispers, his words can be heard by any around the binder within a mile radius.
Sign: Your skin appears to take on a dark, scaly appearance like that of some demons.
Influence: Iyachtu Xvim urges you to try to cow mortals into submission, whether through idle threats, trickery or overall thuggery. He drives you utilize Bluff or Intimidate checks to somehow unnerve at least as many HD of humanoids as per the level you have in the Binder class (if you have any). Barring that, he goads you into attacking a foe and bringing them to 0 HP (but not below -1 HP) and make them surrender. In addition, having previously been a deity of hatred and tyranny, he forces you to resist all beneficial spells cast by deities of love, peace or just authority as well as that of a priest of Cyric. See the Influence description under Amon (Tome of Magic pg 22) for more details.
Granted Abilites: Xvim gives you resistances from his demonic heritage as well as abilites to give rise to anger or fear in your enemies.
Demonic Resilience: You gain DR 10/cold iron, resistance 5 to electricity and +2 competence bonuses on saving throws against poison. You must have your sign of Xvim's pact present to utilize this ability.
Tyrant's Will: You gain a +5 compentence bonus on Bluff and Intimidate checks. In addition, you take no penalty on Bluff or Intimidate checks when rushed or threatened.
Instill Hatred: Once per day, you can instill great anger in a target. The target must make a Will save (DC 1/2 Binder's level + Binder's Cha modifier, minimum +0) or become fixated upon attacking a certain target of the Binder's choosing with a melee weapon (or unarmed strikes if unarmed). The Binder themself can also be said target, if the caster does so desire. This is a supernatural ability.
Terrifying Gaze: Once per day, you can peer on a foe and cause them to tremble in terror. This is a gaze attack, and the foe must be an intelligent humanoid, native outsider or monstrous humanoid (minimum 3 Int) and have line of sight to you. When you use this ability, the target must make a Will save (DC 1/2 Binder's level + Binder's Cha modifier, minimum +0) a target of 5 HD or less who fails their save becomes panicked. A target of 6 to 10 HD who fails their save instead becomes frightened. A target of 11 to 15 HD who fails their save instead becomes shaken. Effective targets of 16 or more HD only suffers a -2 on attack rolls on a failed save. |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
Edited by - Galuf the Dwarf on 13 Aug 2019 03:08:53 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2019 : 16:06:03
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| Like the concept. Recommend a little LESS clarity about what happened. Essentially, maybe Xvim was working towards a ceremony to gather his father's power. What he didn't realize is what the results of his ritual would have. EITHER it reawakened Bane OR it caused Xvim to "take over" a "hidden" avatar form of the dead Bane. Even the vestige does not know the truth of what happened to him, as his mortal existence was separated from his divine existence and cast to the place where vestiges go. Something along those lines. Also, perhaps the vestige wants to FIND OUT the truth behind Banes reemergence, because he doesn't even know WHAT he is, but he wants escape from the place where he's entrapped. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 12 Aug 2019 16:07:40 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2019 : 04:17:07
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| Problem: Xvim rather predates the theft of the Tablets of Fate. He ruled Westgate more than 600 years before -- he showed up there in 710 DR. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2019 : 04:37:57
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| Also, Bane's co-conspirator was Myrkul, not Bhaal. Bhaal didn't get involved until all his worshipers were killed off. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2019 : 23:14:59
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I think Bane was just lucky that Xvim consumed too much of his scattered leftovers too quickly.
Thus accidentally got taken over by his father's psyche being reformed from all these torns pieces being brought together.
Had Xvim just showed more patience in digesting it in smaller quantities before gulping down the next load, Bane would not have reformed and Xvim would still be around.
Either that or my favorite theory that Cyric just slew him and prtends to be Cyric and returned Bane at the same time. |
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wmaster
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2019 : 14:53:10
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| I'm understanding it that Bane used his powers to create Iyatchu Xvim as a demigod, thus an aspect of Bane and chose his portfolio and symbols to make people more inclined to worship Xvim (his plan) after his death whilst he consolidated power through his loyal worshippers and Xvim grew in power with worship (so that Bane had enough power to revive himself). So I doubt his worship would last long because the actual entity is not present to give powers and it should have been perfectly clear to the faith that he emerged as a demigod solely because of Bane himself. I doubt either 1/2 would be possible or have much applicability. Xvim of course being unaware of his use as a tool for Bane to be reborn. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2019 : 22:54:22
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quote:
Originally posted by wmaster
I'm understanding it that Bane used his powers to create Iyatchu Xvim as a demigod, thus an aspect of Bane and chose his portfolio and symbols to make people more inclined to worship Xvim (his plan) after his death whilst he consolidated power through his loyal worshippers and Xvim grew in power with worship (so that Bane had enough power to revive himself). So I doubt his worship would last long because the actual entity is not present to give powers and it should have been perfectly clear to the faith that he emerged as a demigod solely because of Bane himself. I doubt either 1/2 would be possible or have much applicability. Xvim of course being unaware of his use as a tool for Bane to be reborn.
Two things: there's no indication that Xvim was originally a power at all. He was described in the Westgate material as a cambion, not any kind of divinity. (And he was driven out of the city, further indicating his lack of godhood at that time)
And while it's widely supposed that Xvim was a backup plan for Bane, this isn't actually stated anywhere. I've personally argued that a tyrant would not plan ahead for his return, because only a defeated tyrant would be able to return -- the greater show of strength is to never be defeated in the first place.
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2019 : 17:00:45
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Since Bane is tens of thousands of years old and not a complete imbecile (like Gruumsh's son), the Black Lord probably wouldn't believe that he could never be defeated. He was mightily insecure and desperate during the Avatar Crisis because he knew how fragile a deity's existence can truly be and how the best-laid plans can go awry.
He's not just a tyrant, he's a learned tyrant. He knows what's up and that's how he has survived for so long.
EDIT: My mistake. I mixed up two different Banes in my head - Nentir Bane, who was around during the Dawn War (according to DRAGON 372), and the FR Bane. I forgot that they were two different deities despite their overlaps. I'm glad that I have notes just in case of errors like this. Sorry.
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 28 Aug 2019 17:08:08 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2019 : 19:23:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Since Bane is tens of thousands of years old and not a complete imbecile (like Gruumsh's son), the Black Lord probably wouldn't believe that he could never be defeated. He was mightily insecure and desperate during the Avatar Crisis because he knew how fragile a deity's existence can truly be and how the best-laid plans can go awry.
He's not just a tyrant, he's a learned tyrant. He knows what's up and that's how he has survived for so long.
That doesn't change the fact that a tyrant deposed is a weaker tyrant than one who makes sure he can never be deposed in the first place -- which was part of why he stole the Tablets of Fate.
He's survived for so long by making sure there are no threats, not by waiting to be defeated and then hanging all of his hopes on an independent, unwitting, and weaker operator.
A tyrant who depends on someone else to return him to power doesn't have a backup plan -- he's got someone waiting and in position to overthrow him. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Aug 2019 19:24:35 |
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BrennonGoldeye
Learned Scribe
105 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2019 : 19:51:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Since Bane is tens of thousands of years old and not a complete imbecile (like Gruumsh's son), the Black Lord probably wouldn't believe that he could never be defeated. He was mightily insecure and desperate during the Avatar Crisis because he knew how fragile a deity's existence can truly be and how the best-laid plans can go awry.
He's not just a tyrant, he's a learned tyrant. He knows what's up and that's how he has survived for so long.
Hmm, I'm going to have to go on some basic timekeeping here.
Netherese God Of Death- AKA Jergal- was still said God at the Fall as the Dead Three are not spoken of in Netherese lore.. That would be approx 1800 years ago.. Bane is a teenager Deity at best. |
Sam |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2019 : 20:52:00
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quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Since Bane is tens of thousands of years old and not a complete imbecile (like Gruumsh's son), the Black Lord probably wouldn't believe that he could never be defeated. He was mightily insecure and desperate during the Avatar Crisis because he knew how fragile a deity's existence can truly be and how the best-laid plans can go awry.
He's not just a tyrant, he's a learned tyrant. He knows what's up and that's how he has survived for so long.
Hmm, I'm going to have to go on some basic timekeeping here.
Netherese God Of Death- AKA Jergal- was still said God at the Fall as the Dead Three are not spoken of in Netherese lore.. That would be approx 1800 years ago.. Bane is a teenager Deity at best.
Actually, a clue was given in the Avatar series that Bane was always a deity, at least at the level of a demigod when the Dead Three approached Jergal. He was experiencing true mortality for the first time according to the novel's writing. It's the sort of thing that can only be known by actually reading the novel atm.
EDIT: Chapter 4 of Shadowdale, in which Bane is getting lost in exploring mortal sensations, and is described as always having miracles be commonplace to him, with no mention of previous mortality anywhere in the novel.
Bane is therefore likely older than one might realize from just Jergal's story.
There is also a Bane in the Dawn War, which took place tens of thousand of years ago. If that Bane and the current FR/Nentir Bane are the same deity, then that makes Bane tens of thousands of years old.
The 5e DMG also references Bane as a Dawn War pantheon deity with the same portfolio and holy symbol as the FR Bane.
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EDIT: My mistake. I mixed up two different Banes in my head - Nentir Bane, who was around during the Dawn War (according to DRAGON 372), and the FR Bane. I forgot that they were two different deities despite their overlaps. I'm glad that I have notes just in case of errors like this. Sorry.
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 28 Aug 2019 17:08:45 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2019 : 10:10:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
The 5e DMG also references Bane as a Dawn War pantheon deity with the same portfolio and holy symbol as the FR Bane.
Wait is this Bane 1.0 symbol or Bane 2.0 symbol? 'Cause if this is Bane 2.0 symbol it might mean that the real slim shady was a deity much like the modern one in the Dawn War epoch, then fell into obscurity and had to do a double whammy trick to get back to godhood as Bane 1.0 and be fully restored after Xvim ...
So Bane 0.0 used Bane 1.0 and Xvim to get back to his position which we are incorrectly calling Bane 2.0 but might be the fully original real 100% homegrown just with a several thousand years con job requiring two "lesser incarnations" to get back to full power. |
Edited by - Demzer on 28 Aug 2019 10:49:35 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2019 : 12:17:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
The 5e DMG also references Bane as a Dawn War pantheon deity with the same portfolio and holy symbol as the FR Bane.
Wait is this Bane 1.0 symbol or Bane 2.0 symbol? 'Cause if this is Bane 2.0 symbol it might mean that the real slim shady was a deity much like the modern one in the Dawn War epoch, then fell into obscurity and had to do a double whammy trick to get back to godhood as Bane 1.0 and be fully restored after Xvim ...
So Bane 0.0 used Bane 1.0 and Xvim to get back to his position which we are incorrectly calling Bane 2.0 but might be the fully original real 100% homegrown just with a several thousand years con job requiring two "lesser incarnations" to get back to full power.
The 5e DMG is using the claw with three talons pointed down. There's apparently been more than a couple of different symbols used for Bane across editions. Open hand to fist to claw to open hand again.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2019 : 14:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Since Bane is tens of thousands of years old and not a complete imbecile (like Gruumsh's son), the Black Lord probably wouldn't believe that he could never be defeated. He was mightily insecure and desperate during the Avatar Crisis because he knew how fragile a deity's existence can truly be and how the best-laid plans can go awry.
He's not just a tyrant, he's a learned tyrant. He knows what's up and that's how he has survived for so long.
Bane's not tens of thousands of years old (at least not the Bane of the Realms). He got his power from Jergal, who was still a deity around the time of the Fall of Netheril. We see our first canon mention of Bane after the fall of Netheril. He is actually not all that old within the world, as "young" deities such as Azuth and Deneir and others appeared ROUGHLY within a few centuries of this time frame.
That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't some "primal bane" that helps deities rise up and then usurps them. This is what Talos did to Malyk in theory, and I've also put forth a similar theory with Velsharoon and their being a connection to a "Mellifleur" over consciousness that he managed to protect himself from.
Personally, I'm of the mindset, especially when it comes to Bane, that it be very much unclear as to whether its Xvim, Bane the realms-risen or BANE the over-consciousness, etc.... and I really like the idea that the original poster here has in creating Xvim as a vestige. It kind of helps muddy the waters here. For instance, is Bane the realms-risen dead since the ToT, but Xvim raised himself up and then drew the attention of "Bane the over-consciousness" from outside realmspace. If so, then maybe "Xvim" managed to take the reins in time to keep his "mind" in control, but his "ego" was separated to the place where vestiges go..... or something equally weird in which the mind is composed of different pieces.
Furthermore, regarding "Bane the Realms Risen"/Bane 1.0, there's significant indication in 2e products that Bane was kind of up Gilgeam's ass (i.e. trying to break into Unther and/or overthrow Gilgeam). My personal favorite idea is that Gilgeam is now some kind of amalgamation of Gilgeam and Bane 1.0 in which the "vestige" of Bane somehow occupies the "body" of Gilgeam (whether said body is the actual body or a child born of the union of Gilgeam and a mortal... ). This opens up some strange and interesting possibilities. And before someone says this isn't possible... isn't one of the other Untheric deities (Nanna-sin) now in the body of a dragon turtle?
I originally had something in mind like this for Velsharoon, in which the reason he's shown as serving so many different masters (i.e. Mystra/Azuth, Talos, and Shar) isn't because he's working them all, but rather his mind is split and working against itself and spawning multiple avatars with their own agendas. Personally, perhaps if this were true, the best thing that may have happened is that the "Mystra serving" piece of him went to Abeir and the "Shar serving" piece of him stayed in Toril and was killed as documented in a fight against the Simbul (and his body held by the Aglarondans). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 28 Aug 2019 15:00:26 |
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BrennonGoldeye
Learned Scribe
105 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2019 : 16:18:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Since Bane is tens of thousands of years old and not a complete imbecile (like Gruumsh's son), the Black Lord probably wouldn't believe that he could never be defeated. He was mightily insecure and desperate during the Avatar Crisis because he knew how fragile a deity's existence can truly be and how the best-laid plans can go awry.
He's not just a tyrant, he's a learned tyrant. He knows what's up and that's how he has survived for so long.
Hmm, I'm going to have to go on some basic timekeeping here.
Netherese God Of Death- AKA Jergal- was still said God at the Fall as the Dead Three are not spoken of in Netherese lore.. That would be approx 1800 years ago.. Bane is a teenager Deity at best.
Actually, a clue was given in the Avatar series that Bane was always a deity, at least at the level of a demigod when the Dead Three approached Jergal. He was experiencing true mortality for the first time according to the novel's writing. It's the sort of thing that can only be known by actually reading the novel atm.
EDIT: Chapter 4 of Shadowdale, in which Bane is getting lost in exploring mortal sensations, and is described as always having miracles be commonplace to him, with no mention of previous mortality anywhere in the novel.
Bane is therefore likely older than one might realize from just Jergal's story.
There is also a Bane in the Dawn War, which took place tens of thousand of years ago. If that Bane and the current FR/Nentir Bane are the same deity, then that makes Bane tens of thousands of years old.
The 5e DMG also references Bane as a Dawn War pantheon deity with the same portfolio and holy symbol as the FR Bane.
Hmm, maybe we are thinking of different things. If you are speaking of the Dawn War Pantheon in 4E, where they flubbed all the lore and made Nerath a world instead of a FR location, ok I can see that, but that was just bad writing that they didn't retcon with everything else. Note that being a Greater Deity He could send Avatars to other worlds, and those worlds could have different time flow. So its possible He could have existed for 30, 000 years,and still have been born a screaming babe in some run down village in -135 DR. Im gonna pass on the Nerath fluff, as it contradicts previous lore on almost every Deity in it enough to be considered as separate as Greyhawk and Krynn.
If you are speaking of the 'Dawn Cataclysm" where Lathander tried to reorganize the Pantheon to fit his ideas, that happened after the Fall of Netheril as the Talfiric, Netherese and Jhaamdathan pantheons melded into the current Pantheon.
If your speaking of the Dawn war between the Gods and Primordials during the Blue Age, Bane was nowhere to be seen.
As far as the Avatar series, Bane having to get used to being Truly mortal for the first time in an Eon would no doubt be strange. The lack of mention that he once felt that way as the Human he is described as in his entry in Faiths & Pantheons doesn't evidence a lack of an origin in humanity.
Sam |
Sam |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2019 : 17:10:20
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Since Bane is tens of thousands of years old and not a complete imbecile (like Gruumsh's son), the Black Lord probably wouldn't believe that he could never be defeated. He was mightily insecure and desperate during the Avatar Crisis because he knew how fragile a deity's existence can truly be and how the best-laid plans can go awry.
He's not just a tyrant, he's a learned tyrant. He knows what's up and that's how he has survived for so long.
Bane's not tens of thousands of years old (at least not the Bane of the Realms). He got his power from Jergal, who was still a deity around the time of the Fall of Netheril. We see our first canon mention of Bane after the fall of Netheril. He is actually not all that old within the world, as "young" deities such as Azuth and Deneir and others appeared ROUGHLY within a few centuries of this time frame.
That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't some "primal bane" that helps deities rise up and then usurps them. This is what Talos did to Malyk in theory, and I've also put forth a similar theory with Velsharoon and their being a connection to a "Mellifleur" over consciousness that he managed to protect himself from.
Personally, I'm of the mindset, especially when it comes to Bane, that it be very much unclear as to whether its Xvim, Bane the realms-risen or BANE the over-consciousness, etc.... and I really like the idea that the original poster here has in creating Xvim as a vestige. It kind of helps muddy the waters here. For instance, is Bane the realms-risen dead since the ToT, but Xvim raised himself up and then drew the attention of "Bane the over-consciousness" from outside realmspace. If so, then maybe "Xvim" managed to take the reins in time to keep his "mind" in control, but his "ego" was separated to the place where vestiges go..... or something equally weird in which the mind is composed of different pieces.
My mistake. I mixed up two different Banes in my head - Nentir Bane, who was around during the Dawn War (according to DRAGON 372), and the FR Bane. I forgot that they were two different deities despite their overlaps. I'm glad that I have notes just in case of errors like this. Sorry.
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2019 : 17:14:48
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quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Since Bane is tens of thousands of years old and not a complete imbecile (like Gruumsh's son), the Black Lord probably wouldn't believe that he could never be defeated. He was mightily insecure and desperate during the Avatar Crisis because he knew how fragile a deity's existence can truly be and how the best-laid plans can go awry.
He's not just a tyrant, he's a learned tyrant. He knows what's up and that's how he has survived for so long.
Hmm, I'm going to have to go on some basic timekeeping here.
Netherese God Of Death- AKA Jergal- was still said God at the Fall as the Dead Three are not spoken of in Netherese lore.. That would be approx 1800 years ago.. Bane is a teenager Deity at best.
Actually, a clue was given in the Avatar series that Bane was always a deity, at least at the level of a demigod when the Dead Three approached Jergal. He was experiencing true mortality for the first time according to the novel's writing. It's the sort of thing that can only be known by actually reading the novel atm.
EDIT: Chapter 4 of Shadowdale, in which Bane is getting lost in exploring mortal sensations, and is described as always having miracles be commonplace to him, with no mention of previous mortality anywhere in the novel.
Bane is therefore likely older than one might realize from just Jergal's story.
There is also a Bane in the Dawn War, which took place tens of thousand of years ago. If that Bane and the current FR/Nentir Bane are the same deity, then that makes Bane tens of thousands of years old.
The 5e DMG also references Bane as a Dawn War pantheon deity with the same portfolio and holy symbol as the FR Bane.
Hmm, maybe we are thinking of different things. If you are speaking of the Dawn War Pantheon in 4E, where they flubbed all the lore and made Nerath a world instead of a FR location, ok I can see that, but that was just bad writing that they didn't retcon with everything else. Note that being a Greater Deity He could send Avatars to other worlds, and those worlds could have different time flow. So its possible He could have existed for 30, 000 years,and still have been born a screaming babe in some run down village in -135 DR. Im gonna pass on the Nerath fluff, as it contradicts previous lore on almost every Deity in it enough to be considered as separate as Greyhawk and Krynn.
If you are speaking of the 'Dawn Cataclysm" where Lathander tried to reorganize the Pantheon to fit his ideas, that happened after the Fall of Netheril as the Talfiric, Netherese and Jhaamdathan pantheons melded into the current Pantheon.
If your speaking of the Dawn war between the Gods and Primordials during the Blue Age, Bane was nowhere to be seen.
As far as the Avatar series, Bane having to get used to being Truly mortal for the first time in an Eon would no doubt be strange. The lack of mention that he once felt that way as the Human he is described as in his entry in Faiths & Pantheons doesn't evidence a lack of an origin in humanity.
Sam
I'm talking about the Dawn War. I had a brain fart here, mixing up Nentir Bane and FR Bane in my head. I went back to my notes and realized I made a mistake.
An article in Dragon 372 places the Bane of Nentir Vale (4e core DnD setting) into the history of the Dawn War and has a side box separating the two Banes.
So there really was a Bane in the Dawn War, just not the FR Bane.
Sorry.
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2019 : 12:31:00
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The first look we ever had at Ed's pantheon was in Dragon 54 and this is the Bane entry:
BANE The “big baddie,” Lord Bane is never seen, although there are tales of a freezing black-taloned hand and eyes of blazing fire, and can be considered as roughly equivalent to Druaga (DDG, p. 23). He does not, however, rule the archdevils (see Note #4).
Turning to Druaga's entry in DDG, we find this:
"... Druaga only fights in person when his soul object (always put in a living being) is threatened. The soul object is the total essence of his being. If Druaga's bodily form is destroyed, the soul object will begin regeneratinga whole new being with all the memories of the old devil. The human that had Druaga's soul implaned in him or her has no knowledge of this, and will die at the same time the devil's body dies, so that that when the human's body is buried, there will be a safe place for the devil to grow...."
It's interesting that the idea for what became Xvim predates the published Realms! |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2019 : 22:53:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Since Bane is tens of thousands of years old
If he? I thought he was only around two thousand years old (or less)
Edit: Never mind |
Edited by - Mirtek on 01 Sep 2019 22:55:43 |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2019 : 21:45:45
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I've been looking at this scroll for a bit. Xvim was one of my favorites from the late 2e era. Remembering that period of time--1996 to 1997--it really felt like the Realms gurus in TSR realized they had screwed up a bit with the consolidation of pantheons into Cyric. The novel line focused on the Cyric saga. The game line really focused in on the Xvim one. Ruins of Zhentil Keep and The Moonsea accessory dropped into bookstores.
Anyway, I was a very avid player at that time and felt like Xvim was really part of my Realms. I played those adventures numerous times with my old gaming group from high school.
Anyway, after about a 18 year hiatus I got a group together and started my new group sorta in the same place one of my old groups did, with the goal of them being involved in the events that lead to the ascension of Xvim. So, I've been reading along seeing what y'all think actually happened with Xvim.
Well, I'm not sure what the true story is or if anyone will ever tell us anything beyond the official canon (which is misleading at best and ham-handed if completely accurate). But one thing that came back up in this thread was the origin of Bane. From the little lore we have, there is one being still in the Realms that isn't an insane vestige or otherworldly alien intelligence that was directly involved in the rise of Bane: Tyranthraxus.
In FRC1 Ruins of Adventure its written in a book found in Phlan that:
“...and seated foremost in the Hall of Minor Courtiers were the lesser powers: Maram of the Great Spear; Haask,Voice of Hargut; Tyranthraxus the Flamed One; Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud; and Camnod the Unseen. These too fell down and became servants of the great lord Bane.”
So, if that is correct, Tyranthraxus should be able to give a good bit of detail about the whole deification. The rest of the lot aren't of much help for reasons I stated before. Tyranthraxus has shown in other adventures that he (it?) will at least interact with others in Faerun (he has an apparent written correspondence with Fzoul in FRC2 Curse of the Azure Bonds, for example!). Tyranthraxus is also noted in the latter adventure to be a meticulous note taker which is one of the reasons he loathes being in a body without the ability to write. Perhaps some of those old notes were the source of the little we do know about the Dead Three's deification (the knucklebones game, Ironfang Keep, Borem and the Jathiman Dagger, etc.).
Also, Xvim was first formally introduced FR6 Dreams of Red Wizards where he was the basis of an odd adventure hook. I don't recall if Xvim was mentioned prior in the OGB and I've lost the only copy of that I had many years ago. Looking back at the quote in FRC1, its odd that we don't see mention of Xvim in this so-called Hall of Minor Courtiers since he apparently would operate as effectively an avatar for he father in Thay to deal with some blasphemous Red Wizards. |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
Edited by - nblanton on 08 Sep 2019 21:49:23 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2019 : 03:12:33
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Xvim is in the OGB. Page 17 of the Cyclopedia of the Realms:
quote:
Iyachtu Xvim (EE-yak-too Zeh-VIM) is called "the Godson" and the son of Bane, and serves as Bane's instrument in the Realms, directly carrying out his "father's" will. A Demi-Power, Iyachtu Xvim has few followers, and appears as a gaunt, unclothed man with scaley brown skin, wielding a large scimitar.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Sep 2019 03:12:56 |
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Questions about Iyachtu Xvim post-1372
