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mlan
Acolyte
7 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Mar 2018 : 18:40:24
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Hello,
I am playing in a campaign that takes place in 1875. There is a terrible plague that has overrun the land and humanity is in retreat.
We had an idea to go back in time to fix this issue.
I am wondering how time travel works in forgotten realms? We are playing 3.5, but the gist of what I want to know is if changing the past produces parallel histories- or if time is essentially immutable.
Thanks
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In my stubborn youth, I believed that I could stand alone, that I was strong enough to conquer my enemies with sword and with principles. Arrogance convinced me that by sheer determination, I could conquer helplessness itself. Stubborn and foolish youth, I
must admit, for when I look back on those years now, I see quite clearly that rarely did I stand alone and rarely did I have to stand alone. Always there were friends, true and dear, lending me support even when I believed I did not want it, and even when I did
not realize they were doing it. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2018 : 20:12:45
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Canon has been that it time is immutable... But that's older material; the topic hasn't really been addressed in Realmslore in quite some time.
Given that the Realms has changed a hell of a lot since we were first told time travel couldn't change anything, that fact may no longer be true. There are, in fact, indications since then that the time stream has been altered at least a bit.
Just don't involve a time-traveling mailbox.  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2018 : 23:28:34
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I have always felt there was 'another Toril' somewhere out there, because the Evermeet novel (and some fo the stuff in the GHotR) suggests that 'history was changed' by the Sundering, and by the Elves' meddling with it. "Entire civilizations were simply erased, as if they never existed". Thus, there is a timeline that 'never happened'... and yet, it did.
Then when 4e reared its ugly head, we found out there IS a 'parallel world' out their! And some of the stuff that has been 'lost to Toril' has wound-up there. This is why I liken Abeir to a 'cosmic storage bin', or maybe more like a 'toybox', because it contains all the stuff Ao might want to use again. So anytime there is 'Magical Muckery' (including Chronomancy-based effects), most of the stuff that gets obliterated gets shunted over onto Abeir; liken it to a 'backup drive', so 'The Gods' can restore stuff if they want to later.
All that being said, it was established in The Chronomancer (and although that was technically 'core', the name of the product itself is FR canon) that 'time' has a certain promentum - it follows one of the most basic laws of physics - "objects in motion tend to stay in motion". Changes in direction in physics require a more powerful force to exert itself on the trajectory (in this case, 'The Timestream'), causing things to vector (alter course). However, nature has a way of 'finding its way back' to the proper path. If you divert a river, and then just ignore the work you've done, eventual the water should find its original course again (unless you've made SIGNIFICANT changes to the landscape, and then we are back to the 'the amount of force exerted'). Although The Chronomancer didn't get as 'sciency' as I am trying to, the basic premise is this - small events can be changed, and those 'time wrinkles' will smooth themselves out rather quickly. LARGE changes may take longer to 'smooth out', but eventually, they will also smooth out. This is all proportionate to the size of the change, which is proportionate to the force exerted.
However, time itself is a force, and it can be used against itself - if you change something tiny in the past, that change will carry its own inertia, and depending on the scale of the change itself, it could cause problems in the timestream for a very long time. Picture a large boulder falling into the middle of a river. The water must now divert around it. the larger that object, the more the water will need to divert, and the harder it will be for it to find its original path again. Now, if you place your boulder strategically - say, near a bend in the river (a place where the timestream takes a nasty curve, like from a plague), you may have created a permanent new path. It WILL find its way back to the original path, but it won't 'back-track', so there may now be a whole 'loop' of time that's missing.
So basically, according to The Chronomancer, it is very unlikely that changes you made in the distant past will have any noticeable effects when you return to the present. The further back you go, the more unlikely this becomes. So if you were to stop a plague the week before it erupted, then those changes have a better chance of 'sticking' (because of your proximity to the event-modification). Someone coming back a hundred years in the future could try to make the same change, but when they get back to their own time its likely very little will be different - something else would have happened to make sure all those same people died, one way or another. Think of it as the movie Final Destination, on steroids. Since you are talking about four centuries, I really doubt you're going to make much difference - it may as well a have been another timeline. Unless, of course, you don't have to go back nearly that far...
But then a few years from 'now' (YOUR 'now'), a major war might break out - one that would have never broken out if the plague had continued - and all the people who should have died will die anyway. That's just how it works. Even a silly show like Doctor Who has rules regarding this - you CANNOT change 'fixed points', which has to do with your own personal timestream - you cannot make a change that would not allow you to go back and make that change (in other words, its nearly impossible to effect your own future). If you attempt it, you could 'break time',and cause a paradox that sends reality into a blackhole. The Doctor once ignored a fixed Point, and screwed everything up (the universe had to be 'reset').
So even if you 'break' something, and the Universe goes kablooey, there are dudes like Ao (and Nathan Brazil) who can hit the 'reset' button, and even though technically those are all different worlds ad peoples, they would never know it; nobody notices the 'reset' except for the folks who did the resetting. So in a weird way, the 'future' you return to (YOUR 'now') would have completely different people and places. You might not be able to tell the difference (because of what I said earlier - wrinkles in the timestream tend to 'smooth out'), but the fact is you destroyed the timeline you were in and made a new one. You didn't just murder everyone you were trying to save - you obliterated them. But now you have all these nifty 'cosmic clones', and they'll do just as well.
And now I am thinking about Rick & Morty - MAN, I can't wait for new episodes to come out. For such a ridiculous show, they touch on some pretty deep crap (because even Rick knows not to mess with time). But regardless, whether you ascribed to the theory that an alternate quantum reality was created, or you think that 'time rights itself' (so only one, nearly immutable timeline), it doesn't matter - on a metaphysical level, those people are NOT the same people you left behind, because you've made changes, so everyone's life experiences are slightly different. Plus, you just might replace your 'present' with something much worse.
And now you've just given me the inspiration for a truly frightening fantasy/horror story. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Mar 2018 23:41:37 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2018 : 03:01:24
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-Darkvision involved time travel and alternate dimensions and...it was very weird. In the case of the novel itself, we had two alternate timelines existing at the same time, in the same place. In other words, without spoiling anything (not that a 10+-year-old novel needs spoilers, but hey), Individual A from Timeline A existed conterminously with Individual A from Timeline B, in Timeline A.
-So, by the "rules" established in that book, messing with the time stream results in parallel histories that can interact with each other.
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(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 08 Mar 2018 03:02:47 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2018 : 12:42:53
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| and there was a whole rulebook on he subject in 2nd edition called chronomancer and in the Netheril book I think there were some rules clarifications as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2018 : 19:26:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Darkvision involved time travel and alternate dimensions and...it was very weird. In the case of the novel itself, we had two alternate timelines existing at the same time, in the same place. In other words, without spoiling anything (not that a 10+-year-old novel needs spoilers, but hey), Individual A from Timeline A existed conterminously with Individual A from Timeline B, in Timeline A.
-So, by the "rules" established in that book, messing with the time stream results in parallel histories that can interact with each other.
I don't remember ANY of that. 
But, as I said above, I think 'extinct timelines' (if your prefer to think in terms of an immutable timestream) generate 'echos' of themselves, and these are stored somewhere. In FR's case Abeir is the logical choice, but it could just be some sort of backup-drive in the Astral (picture a Jupiter {or larger} sized planet in the Astral, that's nearly impossible to find, where all these records of 'defunct timelines' are stored, in case some Overgod wants to restore them. In fact, its probably some sort of 'sleeping Elder God', who's mind has become so befuddled with keeping track of all the time-changes that its gone into a coma). Or, you can simply say that time-changes generate alternate quantum realities - either way, it all works. The stuff is not 'lost forever'.
I believe that Szass Tam had cast some sort of Epic Spell that allowed him to pear into 'alternate futures' as well. Both of the explanations above still work, or it could just be some sort of logic-generated illusion (probability and outcomes).
The real problem with all of this time-stuff, be it game, fantasy literature, Scify, whatever - is that IF you can travel through time, it means time already exists for you to be able to move through it. That means its 'Set'. Immutable.
And frighteningly enough, what that equates to is that it all already happened, and we are just moving along a point in that fixed timeline. Even Stephen Hawkings has said, "time does not move... WE DO." Basically, 'Reality' is nothing more than a giant 'Game Save', because its all already finished.
And now I am thinking about the 'Observers' from the TV show Fringe - 'you can look, but DON'T TOUCH!'. Its also how the Watchers are supposed to work in Marvel Comics. Unfortunately, neither group ever wrapped their mind around one of the most basic scientific principles - the mere act of observation changes the results. On the other hand, if you can move through time, that means time should be unchangeable - its a paradox. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2018 : 21:58:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Mystra, goddess of magic and the Weave, is responsible for maintaining the integrity of the time stream. She makes sure that people can't just create some kind of epic ritual that erases an entire nation from ever appearing in history.
Mmm... so, this explains why the Spellplague messed the timeline as well. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Corruption
Acolyte
32 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2018 : 11:20:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Mystra, goddess of magic and the Weave, is responsible for maintaining the integrity of the time stream. She makes sure that people can't just create some kind of epic ritual that erases an entire nation from ever appearing in history.
Although the sun god Amaunator has been called Keeper of Time due to a misunderstanding of language in a past contract, he is not actually Keeper of Time.
The elven god Labelas Enoreth might have something to do with protecting the time stream since he is known as Lord of the Continuum, and he has a portfolio of time.
Mystria WAS the time keeper but when she died, Amaunator recieved that duty.
When Lloth moved from her level of the Abyss and made the Demon Web Pits it's own plan of existance, the old layer lacked a time keeper and time did not flow evenely there compared to the rest of the realities.
I do have a series of books that actually has time travel being involved. In it the character move forwards through time to the endof the Netherlese empire, and actually see the start of it's fall. Then they go back to when they came from, and try to fix problems using things they learned in the future. It works, but only because the sollutions had been found.
In fact, one of the problems was a plague destroying all the crops in the netherlese empire.
Other issues mentioned in the future have their origin explained in the past.
Now, in order to avoid the paradox of if you change the past, you won't have the reason to go back and change it, there is a possible solution: have the people be given the quest to go back in time to stop the plauge at it's start. They may be confused AF because there was no major plague, but that's part of the fun. (For extra fun, if two of the characters are in a relationship, they may settle down, and father one of the characters.)
Another method I have seen in comics and shows is for the person doing the change to go outside of time itself to make the change.
Oh, about avoiding changes, just think about the fun of making a Paladin have to avoid fighting evil foes while they are still weak because it would cause disruptions to the time stream.
This can be awesome if done right, or just very frustrating. |
When all, even Gods, must die, then live a life worth living |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2018 : 18:35:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Corruption
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Mystra, goddess of magic and the Weave, is responsible for maintaining the integrity of the time stream. She makes sure that people can't just create some kind of epic ritual that erases an entire nation from ever appearing in history.
Although the sun god Amaunator has been called Keeper of Time due to a misunderstanding of language in a past contract, he is not actually Keeper of Time.
The elven god Labelas Enoreth might have something to do with protecting the time stream since he is known as Lord of the Continuum, and he has a portfolio of time.
Mystria WAS the time keeper but when she died, Amaunator recieved that duty.
Actually, although Amaunator was referred to as timekeeper of the gods in 4e, as far as I could find out, it wasn't confirmed whether it had to do with protecting the time stream itself after Mystra's death. As a sun god, the other way to be a timekeeper was to maintain the passing measurement of seconds by solar cycle, which the 4e Campaign Setting Guide alluded to in the text following Amaunator's entry in the book.
It could be argued that the Weave itself is integral to preventing the more horrific possibilities of temporal manipulation, including the hazards one might face in attempting to travel through time. If that's the case, then it could be argued that during the Spellplague Era, there was no Keeper of Time (in terms of preventing time travel) except for the purpose of keeping the clocks working correctly until the Weave was restored.
In my deity lore pamphlet on DMsGuild though, I do push for Amaunator becoming the official guardian of the time stream in the absence of Mystra (and a partner in such duties after the goddess returned), due to his incredibly deep sense of responsibility. Although the Weave was heavily damaged, there could be other methods to detect people trying to mess with history itself.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2018 : 23:42:58
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So what if the Phaerimm are really Time Inevitables? The Chronomancer starts 'mucking about with time', and that, in turn, causes the collapse of his civilization (plus, I always found ot really weird that a guy who billed hself as the 'master of time' literally ran out of time - he got wounded and couldn't get some healing fast enough. Why didn't his 'future self' just show up with some healing potions?
Thus, its not all magic the Phaerimm are drawn too (initially) - its the 'smell' of chrono-based magics. Just a new theory, is all.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2018 : 02:09:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't remember ANY of that.
-Qari, Ususis sister, was really Ususi from another temporal reality that was created when Pandorym meddled with the Time-Space Continuum. How exactly Pandorym did that, who knows, but it was done to prevent Ususi from being born, because, it knew that Ususi was the only individual in existence that would be able to defeat it (somehow).
-Copied that from a review of the book I wrote. The rest of the review regarding that part is kind of prescient, given this was 2006ish and all of the coming 4e stuff were not really a thing yet. Really can see so many 4e things in their infancy:
(It is not explained how/why both Ususi and Qari exist simultaneously, however. Bruce Cordell has mentioned that he thinks that the Forgotten Realms have room for everything, but Im sorry Bruce. This part was just poorly conceived, asides for something being completely alien to the Forgotten Realms. Any chance for what I think would have been a fairly good book to have a fairly good review was ruined here. In fact, the book is lucky that it has those things mentioned above, otherwise its review would be more dismal than it already is.) |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 10 Mar 2018 02:16:46 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2018 : 03:34:20
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I see FR's becoming the Golarion of D&D.
Soon, we'll be seeing hillbilly ogres, kaiju and robots. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 11 Mar 2018 03:35:56 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2018 : 06:27:53
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The first section of the 2nd Edition product "Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves" covers time travel and time traveling campaigns, as well as alternate timelines.
It's been a while since I read it, but I recall that being the most comprehensive writing on the matter specific to the Forgotten Realms from the 2nd Edition era.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2018 : 09:57:07
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There is a human time deity aspect, of Labelas Enoreth, Chronos, from Orva, formerly an human time god, but absorbed by Labelas after Green elves moved there. 
Could be, the real time keeper god is dead, and the portfolio is taken by Labelas, his work done by Mystra, and partly Amaunator. 
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Edited by - Starshade on 11 Mar 2018 09:58:06 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2018 : 23:08:00
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I have it (my personal homebrew cosmology) where Chronos and Chronepsis ware the same being. Chronepsis represented 'Order', and thus, 'the order of things'. After the Dawn War when the Lattice of Heaven was Shattered, EVERYTHING changed, because the concept of stuff "coming to a final end" came into being. So Chronepsis morphed in the being known as Chronos (although, in truth, these Supernals don't even have or need names - those are both names mortals came up with - dragons, and then humans). So 'Order' became 'Time'. Going back to aspects - there were aspects of Chronos worshiped on some human worlds, or rather, he was at least part of their pantheon (as neither Chronepsis nor Chronos did it really bother with 'religion' - it was beyond such things). That aspect - along with a slew of others - managed to make it into the Realms during the time of Imaskar, when they were scooping up great loads of people from other worlds (this would have been before they realized the problems inherent in that, so before the built the Godwall). Most of those aspects were very weak - having such a small following in realmspace - and they dwindled and eventually died-off. A few more may have lasted a bit, but most were eventually folded into other deities, one way or another. I feel this FR Chronos was one such - it was a holdout form an earlier age that finally dwindled enough for Labelas to just absorb it.
Note that not ALL the Olympians disappeared - a couple remained, some by sleightly changing their name (Sune), others by reinventing themselves as other gods (there are sevral here that might qualify), and then there is tyche, who did very well for herself until lathander came along. Note that one of the major temples of tyche was STILL OPERATING not far from where Chronos was worshipped (south-Eastern Cormyr), and since I think those 'Mediterranean peoples' became my theoretical Dathites, who became the Chondathans... who SETTLED CORMYR... it all comes full-circle for me. The earliest human arrivals in Cormyr - even long before there was a 'Cormyr' - would have brought with them very different gods from the Old Empires than what the Netherese or even the Talfir (pre-Tethyrian) were using. We also see Dionysius over in Impiltur - the country from which the Obarskyr dynasty came. I think the Olympians had a much bigger presence in The Realms at one time than most people realize - it may have been the 'state religion' back before Jhaamdath got drowned (I guess the elves cut a deal with Silvanus LOL). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2018 23:09:23 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2018 : 02:45:58
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| The 2E supplement TSR 9506 Chronomancer deals extensively with time travel, it's all about time travelling mages and magics, and it details specific rules/quirks for the Realms and other campaign worlds. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Bragi
Seeker
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 23:24:01
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| In my campaign my group is attempting to rescue Labelas Enoreth from the demiplane that he was tossed in to during the Time of Troubles in the comics. I also used "Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves" to locate time portals. My group is using the menhir circle in the Moonshaes. With any luck they will eventually make their way to the Temple Beyond Time. Of course it also involves Nezram the World Walker and the Font of Time in Raurin. I believe there is also a time portal in one of the perilous gateways articles but I could be wrong about that. |
In Pursuit of Better Worlds,
Bragi of Erin |
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Elren_Wolfsbane
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2018 : 18:46:35
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| They briefly touch on time travel in the book: Dangerous Games (The Netheril Trilogy). A few of the spells and spell components are explained |
Aa' lasser en`coialle n`natula brown.
(May the leaves of your life tree never turn brown)
-Elren Wolfsbane |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2018 : 19:31:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Elren_Wolfsbane
They briefly touch on time travel in the book: Dangerous Games (The Netheril Trilogy). A few of the spells and spell components are explained
And one of those books had a character who was a reincarnation of a prior character -- something that flies against all other Realmslore concerning death. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2018 : 21:54:27
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| IIRC, reincarnation is a pretty common thing in the Realms (ask Drizzt's companions). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2018 : 01:35:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
IIRC, reincarnation is a pretty common thing in the Realms (ask Drizzt's companions).
No, it isn't. There's the whole Fugue Plane thing and all that, where souls go when they die, until their deity claims them and then they spend the rest of their existence in the deity's divine realm. That's canon per multiple sourcebooks and novels -- pretty much any time the afterlife has been mentioned in the Realms.
In all the Realmslore I've read, I can only think of a handful of examples of reincarnation: the one in the Netheril trilogy and the ones you reference. That's it. Literally 2 novels, out of hundreds of sourcebooks, comics, novels, magazine articles, and web content.
Reincarnation runs counter to existing Realmslore.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Mar 2018 01:37:40 |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2018 : 10:15:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
IIRC, reincarnation is a pretty common thing in the Realms (ask Drizzt's companions).
No, it isn't. There's the whole Fugue Plane thing and all that, where souls go when they die, until their deity claims them and then they spend the rest of their existence in the deity's divine realm. That's canon per multiple sourcebooks and novels -- pretty much any time the afterlife has been mentioned in the Realms.
In all the Realmslore I've read, I can only think of a handful of examples of reincarnation: the one in the Netheril trilogy and the ones you reference. That's it. Literally 2 novels, out of hundreds of sourcebooks, comics, novels, magazine articles, and web content.
Reincarnation runs counter to existing Realmslore.
Yes, I find that odd especially considering some of the new options for backgrounds in 5e. One of the options to explain sorcery, for example, is that your character is the reincarnation of an ancient and powerful being, or of an entity from prophecy.
Seems like a far stretch unless said entity's god sent them back on purpose for some divine errand. Probably a good motive for making a divine soul sorcerer, come to think of it |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
Edited by - Balmar Foghaven on 23 Mar 2018 10:16:21 |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2018 : 10:30:55
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Oh, and on the topic of time travel and paradoxes...
I ran a game once where the players - who insisted on learning and using chronomancy - traveled to alternate points in time and somehow managed to simultaneously murder each other and cause a paradox (you know, typical player versus player shenanigans). I dealt with this nonsense by having the paradox split reality into two alternate timelines, with each of them surviving only in one of those new realities.
The campaign subsequently ended rather quickly, as running it for two separate parties was rather unproductive. Besides, one of the characters was working his way towards becoming the BBEG himself anyways.
My question is, would such a rupture of time be something feasible in the Realmslore? I have never really read any novels or sourcebooks in which such things occur. |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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Elren_Wolfsbane
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2018 : 13:27:46
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If you're referring to Sysquemalyn, yes, it is very odd. Remember that she did replicate hell in a pocket universe of her own making, so anything could be possible. Yes, she modeled it out of the real hell, but I would assume she would pervert it and make it her own
Granted, reincarnation is slim in the realms!, but who knows the will of thr God's |
Aa' lasser en`coialle n`natula brown.
(May the leaves of your life tree never turn brown)
-Elren Wolfsbane |
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Elren_Wolfsbane
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2018 : 13:23:01
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| I spoke before finishing the book, a mistake. I realize who wooly was referring to, but I still have to say the wull of the gods is one mortals will bever understand. I did enjoy the book though |
Aa' lasser en`coialle n`natula brown.
(May the leaves of your life tree never turn brown)
-Elren Wolfsbane |
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HellixHarpell
Acolyte
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2023 : 13:25:01
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Respectfully, I have to disagree with this.
Here's why:
If Mystryl/Mystra has always been the goddess of time then why did she allow the events of Karsus' Folley and her own demise at the hands of Cyric & Shar?
I don't care if Ao is the overlord of this "crystal sphere" I'm going to hatch a plan (however complicated it may be) of self-preservation.
I'm going to find a way to hide my avatars who are traveling thru the timestream to plant "time seeds" (events that gradually affect that river/boulder example you just gave.
All these events do not make sense if Mystra is truly the goddess of time and can see all events past, present & future.
*I'm discussing this with a friend right now.*
The only reason we can come up with Mystra not having any self-preservation sense is that Ao has made her "timesick". So whenever a huge realms shattering event happens, Mystra has to avert her eyes from the catastrophy and allow it to happen. Milliseconds after Karsus' Folley she regains her senses, sacrifices herself to restore the weave and is able to save at least 3 floating cities.
But this still doesn't explain away her allowing Shar & Cyric from going right thru the front door of her domain and killing her.
But even still, she can see these events in the future and would have at least the presence of mind to hatch a plan. Much like the storyline of a rich person seeing his death coming and making out a will.
I've not read anywhere (canon or otherwise) where this concept is discussed.
*Disclaimer: I stopped DMing right before 4th ed and haven't read modules where the characters can prevent the shade from returning.*
Even before these modules were written I wrote 5 different plotlines involving parties that would assist the Halruaans in their quest to return Netheril to it's glory, prevent the city of Shade from coming back, going to a hidden valley in the high ice, & others.
Then when I returned to DMing I'm seeing WoTC screwing up the realms with spellplague. Which brings me back to my original point.
When you have "Foreknowledge" of a catastrophic event that involves your death wouldn't you do anything and everything in your power to stop it?
Ao might be the overlord but they didn't say Ao was in charge of the timeline. They said Mystra is.
I don't care if it is fantasy, it just doesn't make sense.
Let Mystra send her avatars out on missions throughout the timeline (disguising her true intent) and plant time seeds that a party of adventurers can find and help her prevent her own demise. Of course
without telling the characters they are the inheritors of Mystra's last will and testament.
Somebody has got to fix 4th ed. Might as well be a group of PCs.
Steve C.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have always felt there was 'another Toril' somewhere out there, because the Evermeet novel (and some fo the stuff in the GHotR) suggests that 'history was changed' by the Sundering, and by the Elves' meddling with it. "Entire civilizations were simply erased, as if they never existed". Thus, there is a timeline that 'never happened'... and yet, it did.
Then when 4e reared its ugly head, we found out there IS a 'parallel world' out their! And some of the stuff that has been 'lost to Toril' has wound-up there. This is why I liken Abeir to a 'cosmic storage bin', or maybe more like a 'toybox', because it contains all the stuff Ao might want to use again. So anytime there is 'Magical Muckery' (including Chronomancy-based effects), most of the stuff that gets obliterated gets shunted over onto Abeir; liken it to a 'backup drive', so 'The Gods' can restore stuff if they want to later.
All that being said, it was established in The Chronomancer (and although that was technically 'core', the name of the product itself is FR canon) that 'time' has a certain promentum - it follows one of the most basic laws of physics - "objects in motion tend to stay in motion". Changes in direction in physics require a more powerful force to exert itself on the trajectory (in this case, 'The Timestream'), causing things to vector (alter course). However, nature has a way of 'finding its way back' to the proper path. If you divert a river, and then just ignore the work you've done, eventual the water should find its original course again (unless you've made SIGNIFICANT changes to the landscape, and then we are back to the 'the amount of force exerted'). Although The Chronomancer didn't get as 'sciency' as I am trying to, the basic premise is this - small events can be changed, and those 'time wrinkles' will smooth themselves out rather quickly. LARGE changes may take longer to 'smooth out', but eventually, they will also smooth out. This is all proportionate to the size of the change, which is proportionate to the force exerted.
However, time itself is a force, and it can be used against itself - if you change something tiny in the past, that change will carry its own inertia, and depending on the scale of the change itself, it could cause problems in the timestream for a very long time. Picture a large boulder falling into the middle of a river. The water must now divert around it. the larger that object, the more the water will need to divert, and the harder it will be for it to find its original path again. Now, if you place your boulder strategically - say, near a bend in the river (a place where the timestream takes a nasty curve, like from a plague), you may have created a permanent new path. It WILL find its way back to the original path, but it won't 'back-track', so there may now be a whole 'loop' of time that's missing.
So basically, according to The Chronomancer, it is very unlikely that changes you made in the distant past will have any noticeable effects when you return to the present. The further back you go, the more unlikely this becomes. So if you were to stop a plague the week before it erupted, then those changes have a better chance of 'sticking' (because of your proximity to the event-modification). Someone coming back a hundred years in the future could try to make the same change, but when they get back to their own time its likely very little will be different - something else would have happened to make sure all those same people died, one way or another. Think of it as the movie Final Destination, on steroids. Since you are talking about four centuries, I really doubt you're going to make much difference - it may as well a have been another timeline. Unless, of course, you don't have to go back nearly that far...
But then a few years from 'now' (YOUR 'now'), a major war might break out - one that would have never broken out if the plague had continued - and all the people who should have died will die anyway. That's just how it works. Even a silly show like Doctor Who has rules regarding this - you CANNOT change 'fixed points', which has to do with your own personal timestream - you cannot make a change that would not allow you to go back and make that change (in other words, its nearly impossible to effect your own future). If you attempt it, you could 'break time',and cause a paradox that sends reality into a blackhole. The Doctor once ignored a fixed Point, and screwed everything up (the universe had to be 'reset').
So even if you 'break' something, and the Universe goes kablooey, there are dudes like Ao (and Nathan Brazil) who can hit the 'reset' button, and even though technically those are all different worlds ad peoples, they would never know it; nobody notices the 'reset' except for the folks who did the resetting. So in a weird way, the 'future' you return to (YOUR 'now') would have completely different people and places. You might not be able to tell the difference (because of what I said earlier - wrinkles in the timestream tend to 'smooth out'), but the fact is you destroyed the timeline you were in and made a new one. You didn't just murder everyone you were trying to save - you obliterated them. But now you have all these nifty 'cosmic clones', and they'll do just as well.
And now I am thinking about Rick & Morty - MAN, I can't wait for new episodes to come out. For such a ridiculous show, they touch on some pretty deep crap (because even Rick knows not to mess with time). But regardless, whether you ascribed to the theory that an alternate quantum reality was created, or you think that 'time rights itself' (so only one, nearly immutable timeline), it doesn't matter - on a metaphysical level, those people are NOT the same people you left behind, because you've made changes, so everyone's life experiences are slightly different. Plus, you just might replace your 'present' with something much worse.
And now you've just given me the inspiration for a truly frightening fantasy/horror story.
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The symbols of mythology are not manufactured; they cannot be ordered, invented, or permanently suppressed. They are spontaneous productions of the psyche.
(The Hero with a Thousand Faces, Joseph Campbell) |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2023 : 22:07:19
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Even the Goddess of Time can't stop Fate/Destiny/The River of Time.
She can know forever that her death is a Fixed Point in Time, that Must/Will/Has Happened, and Must Always Happen....but she can't do anything to change it.
And...of course....quite often....anything she DOES....IS...what causes it to happen: Stable Time Loop. Mystra Is who she Is, she will always DO 'X' as she will always think it's the best thing to do.....and if she does THAT, it leads to the Path.
But, note...all three times....she was prepared. And Half of the whole point of her Chosen is they each contain some of her power so a 'Fall' won't happen. Also, other then Chosen, she has made Weave Anchors.
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Time Travel in the Realms
