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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 20:11:16
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So in another thread I was talking about what I would do with the place, as of 5e. So I put a little more thought into it, and here's the breakdown:
The Tharches:
Thaymount - is basically what all of Thay was in 4e. A pace where 'ebil lich' Szass Tam dwells, plotting his plots, surrounded by hordes of Undead. Now to try and make sense of all this.
Alaor - mostly destroyed island-realm. no longer truly considered part of Thay. The Red Wizards organization do keep an enclave on the island despite the port being all but gone.
Delhumide - ruled by an Animus, and (secretly) allied with Thaymount. Very few are aware of the undead status of the ruler.
Eltabbar - Ruled by a vampire (also status unknown... but not really. everyone suspects). Secretly under the control of Szass Tam.
Gauros - strangely, fell under the control of Songfarla during the 4e era. What few surviving humans were left were aided by the gnomes, and lead to underground shelters. The humans are only now returning to the surface in any numbers, and rebuilding settlements. Thus far, the rest of Thay is ignoring them - they have no idea how much power Songfarla has, and there are too many lucrative trade-deals going on with Gnomish consortiums to want to jeopardize any of that.
Lapendrar - after suffering major losses immediately following the Spellplague, Lapendrar bounced back, and is doing better than ever. Although it has completely lost its holding on the first escarpment (to Tyraturos), it has extended its border far to the west, not encompassing parts of southern Thesk and even the city of Milvarune, much to Aglarond's chagrin, because this has now given Thay (in their eyes) a port on the Easting Reach. Aglarond was not able to stop Lapendrar's rise due to its own internal struggles during that same period, and the only thing it still controls on the north side of the River Umbar is the City of Emmech (which maintains good relations with the 'nation' of Lapendrar for obvious reasons). The region of Thesk south of the Thesk mountains was never truly under the control of a central Theskan government to begin with, so there was little Thesk could do to prevent the expansion. The people living in the region would have never agreed to become 'Thayan', but Lapendrar assures everyone all ties with its former kingdom have been severed (not entirely true - they still pay lip-service to its council). This is a power on the rise, and one to be watched (and feared?)
Priador - almost completely defunct as a 'Tharch'. Although it still claims Murbant and Thasselen, it truly only controls Bezantur, and just barely. The Guilds have risen to power in bexzantur, and although they still pretend to lisen to their tharchion, its the Guildmasters who hold sway in the city. Beyond Bezantur and the famr lands immediately surrounding it, nothing is actaully under the dominance of Priador, and the countryside has mostly fallen to lawlessness. Bezantur itself, however, is doing just fine, and has a strong merchant marine, and trade with southern and eastern nations is on the rise.
Pyarados - One of the two remaining strong tharches; the other being Tyraturos, which is a close ally. The two manage to keep Szass Tam in-check, and from retaking the rest of Thay. The High Council takes turns meeting here and in Tyraturos.
Surthay - technically now 'independent', very much like Ashanath (or Altumbel), with no central governing body. When Thay fell to the undead during its civil war, Surthay was seized and settled by Rashemi, but Rashemen makes no claims on it (Rashemen DOES consider it part of Rashemen now, but does not want to force Thay's hand by making any sort of grandiose public announcements to that effect). Eventually something must be officially decided where Surthay is concerned the High council would like to reassert its claim.
Thaymount (Ruthammar) - a completely separate kingdom at this point, and very isolationist. No-one knows what Szass Tam is up to these days, but it can't be good. every so often he sends legions of undead down from his realm just to test the defenses of Thay, and thus far has found them adequate.
Thazalhar - this region was barely ever a Tharch to begin with, and is no longer. The fact that Thazalhar was briefly its own kingdom for nearly a century is all but forgotten. Like so many other small Imaskari 'survivor states', ti did not last very long, as the more powerful among their number absorbed the weaker ones. the only real difference between Thazalhar and so many of them was that its name had remained unchanged, despite changing hands multiple times (it just wasn't an interesting enough piece of territory to put that much thought into). Most recently, right after the Thayan civil War and after the Sellplague cause mass confusion, the nearby citystate of Sultim declared dominion over the region. No-one was in any position - or had any desire - to argue. The region remains unchnaged - not many folk live here, outside the city. It does share a border with Songfarla, as well as thay, and the Thayans have opened up diplomatic channels with Sultim in the hopes of a non-aggressive resolution to what they see as a 'seizure of their territory'. And truthfully, its just not worth fighting over.
Tyraturos - arguably the most powerful remaining Tharch, it seized the lands on the Thayan Plateau that once belonged to Lapendrar after the war, and has been building its economy - and military - ever since. The ruler of the tharch - referring to herself as the 'Ur-Queen', has designs to rule all of Thay, including Thaymount, eventually, and then move onto the rest of the Unapproachable East. However, that lofty goal will remain well out of her reach so long as Szass Tam sits in his fortress on the High Plateau.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jan 2018 02:41:16
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 20:11:57
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Other Entities
Thay Itself - thought to be completely destroyed after their Civil War, the nation was overrun with undead. At least, the two plateaus were - the lower regions remained fairly untouched, and became a haven for fleeing, living beings. Many of the non-human troops were slain, between the war and the ensuing aftermath, so Thay today has much fewer monstrous troops than it once boasted... with the exception of Thaymount. Most of the remaining orcs have become mercenaries, in the employ of the new Tharches. The majority of the gnolls - once one of the largest military factions, have mostly retreated to the Ganathwood when the Spellplague struck. One group that actually rose in prominence are Thay's Centaurs - it was the centaurs that manage to 'herd' most of the remaining living folk off the plateaus, including large amounts of slaves, and then provide them with enough resources to survive until they could do so on their own. Although still feared, the once-hated centaurs of Thay have become honored heroes of the people, and hold a place of prominence in the new Thay.
The Tharches have returned to some semblance of what they used to be, but in reality, the country is a mere 'ghost' of what it once was. Red Wizards who had been out of the country when the Spellplague hit (mostly avoiding serving in the war, for either side) uncharacteristically banded together in a united front, and working with survivors, managed to slowly retake the first plateau back from the undead. Curiously, Szass Tam made very little effort personally to stop any of this. Thankfully, he appears to be preoccupied. During the Spellplague, several extremely powerful liches - at least one as powerful as Larloch - have entered The Realms, which he finds 'very worrisome'. Neither side seems to have the wherewithal to want to try one final push to oust the other, and so the situation remains as-is.
The Red Wizards - This is probably the oddest turn of events of all - 'the Red Wizards' is no longer synonymous with Thay. They are independent group, operating all over. Their 'enclaves' act as a combination of Wizard school, magical supply shop (including some limited inventory of weaker items), and YES, still an 'embassy', but onto themselves, not for Thay. At least, thats the impression they are trying to give everyone else. The truth is quite a bit more complicated. 'The Red Wizards' are considered their own Tharch, in secret, and hold a seat on the council, and are considered to be the equal (in power) to both Tyraturos and Pyarados combined, but in order to maintain the veneer of independence from its former country, and alleviate some suspicion, they continue to operate as if they have little to nothing to do with Thay proper. Most folks in the Realms today consider 'the Red Wizards' some sort of chain of magical schools, located in larger cities. However, if Szass Tam ever made any major moves to retake the rest of Thay, the entire organization would mobilize against him. They are also fully aware that the two northern Tharchs are probably under the lich's control, and they keep a careful eye on them.
The Sorcerer's Reach - Formerly the Wizards Reach*, this coastline is home to a dozen 'citystates', most of whom claim autonomy, but most of whom in fact pay tribute to Thay, Aglarond, or another city. Several were destroyed during the Spellplague, or by attacks out of Thay, but have since been rebuilt. The name was changed to reflect the fact that Wizards had become impotent during the Plague Years, and sorcery, with its more 'free form' application, became dominant in the east. Several cities also have 'pacts' with gods or Elemental Lords, via their main churches in the area. Now that Unther has returned (as well as Mulhorand), and both seem to have been woken from their millennium-long stupor (a century on another world will do that to a people), the Sorcerer's Reach, as well as the rest of Faerûn, sit and wait in anticipation for the next series of wars to come to region.
Sentaria - A 'realm' in theory only. The rise of the prestige of Thay's centaurs to near-noble status have led many of the tainted creatures to try and rediscover their ancient roots. That was once a land covered with primal forest, and the centaurs had a mighty fey kingdom therein - Sentaria. Some of these centaurs now meet in secret, hoping to reestablish their supremacy, and they are once-again discovering scholarly pursuits they long-abandoned, studying ancient texts in secret places from the time when they ruled the land. The Thayans - some, at any rate - are aware of whats going on, and find it amusing. The centaurs were a great help during the Plagued years, and they do not want to hurt their current relationship with them, so they suffer what they think of as 'silliness' on the part of the proud horse-people. If Thayans (or the Red Wizards, which are secretly the same group anyway) ever caught wind of solid plans of insurrection, they would move quickly to crush it. Of course, they are not sure how the 'rabble' (common folk) would take this - they may just decide they'd rather be part of a centaur kingdom!
Centaurs of Thay are not the same as centaurs elsewhere - they are very pale for centaurs, some tending towards an almost human-albino coloration. Their eyes are more like those of the centaurs of the wastes, to whom they are related, and that gives them a bit of a 'Shou' look about them. Hair color tend to go from dark brown to black, and their eyes tend to be dark purple to black, making them seem 'pupiless'. Their body hair (on the 'horse parts') tend to be darkly colored as well, ranging from black throughout all shades of grey, and even a rare white individual. And they are very large - heavier still then even Faerûnian centaurs, who are themselves much larger than the creatures living in The Taan (they are actually hybrids of the two groups, that over the centuries have become their own, distinct group). They sport tattoos, but of a different style than their human counterparts (what we on Earth would refer to as 'Celtic'), and tattoo their faces, normally adding to them as their list of accomplishments grows. A Thayan Centaur completely covered in tattoos is one to be feared - they are veterans of many dangerous situations. All carry a bow, a cudgel (mace), and a spear strapped to their sides (for riot-control). The females are just as large and aggressive as the males, although they tend toward lighter shades of hair and hide coloration, and occasionally even sport silver hair on their heads and mane (giving way to being jokingly referred to as 'Simbulmares'... which they HATE).
Songfarla - 'the hidden kingdom', or so it was. Most Thayans never even heard of it, despite being right next door (and in places, under Thay). The gnomes have long kept themselves hidden away from the prying eyes of the rest of the world, which somehow managed to keep them safe from both Thay and the Tuigan over the years. Some folks believe Songfarla dates back to the time of Imaskar, as a sort-of 'secret kingdom' to help slaves escape. Scholars have dubbed this 'the Underground Caravan', and it is theorized that it may have even been the gnomes that first helped settle escaped Mulan outside of Imaskar proper. If this is the case, then it was a much smaller realm in those days - the population swelled toward the end of the days of Netheril, when Elves ironically lead gnomish slaves east, away from their former masters, to settle in what the elves had thought (at that time) as a 'peaceful region', among teir own kind that had been hidden for so long.
When the spellplague struck, the gnome were also hit hard, but they managed to overcome the obstacles as they've always learned to do. They were forced to reveal themselves when they came to the aid of Fleeing Thayans of Gauros. Under normal circumstances the gnomes would not have put themselves in jeopardy just to save a few humans, but their were hundreds, perhaps even thousands, of humans who were being attacked, torn-apart, and even eaten by undead, and the gnomes could no longer stand idly by. They were led through secret caves-entrances into the Underdark kingdom, and then lead back out the other side of the mountains into the High Vale. Only recently have the gnomes started resettling the humans back into their old homeland (they never meant for them to be a permanent fixture within their own lands). Unfortunately, several generations of human have gone by, and the current crop are none to happy with having to move away from their idyllic valley home. The ones ho ahve already been moved did so willingly, out of friendship to the gnomes, but the remaining ones are being obstinate. The gnomes are not sure what to do, and may seek outside aid to resolve the problem (they do not want anyone hurt, nor do they want humans to think they are citizens of Songfarla, so its a difficult conundrum ).
*I renamed this because 1) I could, 2) I felt there should still be some changes - it would be ridiculous if everything went back to exactly how it was before, and 3) there is another locale by that same name down in Zakhara, in the Corsair Islands, and because my latest FR maps now show that, I don't want two places with the same name on one map. Consider this the main reason. Plus, it makes sense - post-Spellplague folks would want to avoid ANY association with Wizards. 'Sorcery' is a more southern tradition, based more on genie-magic than Arcane (Weave) magic, so it adapted more quickly to the changes (and I believe that part is canon - I recall something about it from the novels). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Jan 2018 22:38:31 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 00:28:10
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| Alaor should be one of the strongest Thay presences I think. The entire Thayvian navy was kinda beyond reach of everyone on land. Sounds like the perfect place to dock and sit out the storm. Maybe one of the Old Zulkirs... just for now say Mythrell'aa... arranged it with Thessaloni after allowing the other Zulkirs to believe she was killed. This would also make sense because Myth was based out of Bezantur and she could slowly shift resources over to the island while the other zulkirs are busy with Tam. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 02:18:27
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I was thinking that as well, but I think the island got wiped-out in 4e. I don't recall what happened to it in the novels - I know the survivors of the Civil War were trying to make it there, but 'unstoppable, Overgod Szass Tam' flexed his improbably magical muscles (at a time when no other wizards could control their magic, his was increased a hundred fold), and basically stopped the entire fleet... without breaking a sweat. I guess after bitching-out Bane, nothing is hard any more.
Anyhow, besides losing the whole navy, the 4e map indicated the island(s) had some major badness hapen to them. They became one, larger island, but considering the size, and how everything within 50 miles of the coast (presumably - I am still looking for evidence of that, aside from them over-doing it in Turmish) got messed up, I'm thinking not much could have survived in Alaor. No navy, no town (certainly no port since the coast shifted), major upheaval of both land and sea, and basically no-one to protect whatever was left throughout the 4e period.
On the other hand, I did have a Red Wizard School (Enclave) set-up there, so my thoughts in that direction is that it could be their 'secret base of operations', near but not in Thay (since they do consider themselves as something 'above' old Thay at this point). These entries would be like from a 5e campaign guide, not as of the current year (whatever that is), so that events may have moved forward, and Aloar could very well be on its way to being rebuilt (which was my plan). Because Szass Tam still has a large number of undead forces at his disposal, the Red Wizard organization did not want to be on the mainland where they could reach them easily (so think of Thay as entering a phase similar to how Zhentil Keep used to be, with 'factions', but now The Red Wizards are an independent but very powerful (and very much 'in control') group like the Zhentarrim was in old ZK (instead of 'The Black Network', now ewe have 'The Red Network', and Red Wizards have even taken-over a number of old Zhent holdings (they would like to slowly reenter the 'trade' business, and control much of it as the Zhents used to, but they wish to do so by setting-up 3rd party trading costers, so their name isn't on any of the paperwork... they've become VERY smart about how they operate).
However, aside from their near-universal presence (thanks, 4e), most of their long-range plans are still in their infancy. They are being cautious, and rebuilding Aloar is just one small piece of that. They look at the Tharchions as dupes who are just 'keeping the place warm' for them, until they are in a more powerful position to strike. Oh, and the most important part - the Red Wizards now have a secret leader know only as the Archtheurge. Only the highest level memebrs of the order ever get to 'see' him in person, but no-one gets to see his face. Its covered, with a Red Steel Mask.
Think of the new Red Wizards as something akin to the Scarlet Brotherhood now, in the way they conduct operations. No-one knows what they are planning until it is too late. They have a much bigger focus on magic than unarmed melee, but there is an elite group within the order trained as Mage-Monks, which also work as assassins for the group's bidding. once again, very few people would know this. The Rew Wizards conduct operations in a hundred different theaters simultaneously, with a cell-structure so that no one person knows everything about a certain Op, and it also allows them a certain level of deniability. "I swear, we had no idea some of our people were doing that! We are SO sorry... please, let us make reparations..."
EDIT:
You'll also note that thats the first time I actually mentioned any leader-types. I left it all vague in that area on purpose - people can do whatever they like with it (as for me, I am undecided yet who I would bring back, and if I would add anyone new). The Archtheurge is still left purposely secret, but I konw who that is (unlike the the 'Ur-Queen', who may or may not be Dmitra Flass). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jan 2018 21:07:15 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 04:47:48
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Simple... The 4e WIPE OUT was actually a series of major illusions created by Mythy and her Illusionist side-kicks to hide in plain site.
I LOVE Illusionists :P ... Literally any plot hole can be fixed by saying it was an illusion! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 15:14:24
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I know that you don't have to stick with canon, but this idea that the other areas are separate realms diverges heavily from canon. We have the red wizards and remaining Zulkirs out of Escalant invading Thay only about 12-14 years ago from modern times. Thay still held the lower plateau and the people there were subjected to undead. It was by no means a separate entity. Now, how populated was it by the living? Probably not much by what we can tell, and from what we can tell in the later released adventures, these people are ready to rebel (in fact, when the Zulkirs showed up, many of these people did join with the Zulkirs to help take down a dread ring). However, if anything happened to make these areas free of Tam's control, it would have to have been recent.
Now that being said, in theory, it is now 4 or 5 years since the sundering. I would love to write into the history that with the return of the red wizards that the Priador, Lapendrar, Alaor, and Thazalhar are back under the rebel red wizard's "control" (though any control in Thazalhar is only due to lack of interest).
On the trade enclaves/Thaymarts, this is one of those things that I felt they should have addressed in the lore for 4e. Essentially, the novels indicate that Samas Kul was still amazingly rich. From this, I'd assume that the enclaves that survived held their "contracts" with the guild of foreign trade, and since Samas Kul was head of this guild, perhaps this was partly what was keeping the Zulkirs in power in Escalant was overseeing their enclaves. However, that being said, I'd bet half the enclaves fell apart. For instance, I've personally written up that the enclaves in Sembia were all abandoned when the Netherese showed up, and I sent those enclave members down into the countries of the Chultan peninsula to form new enclaves (which I also abandon, but I've talked about that elsewhere).
The one area that I've considered keeping my enclaves all relatively together are the ones near Mulmaster, and I was playing with the idea of another small allied "realm" getting formed there (I say realm, because I can't thing of a better term for 3 allied cities all with maybe 10-25k people in them). The idea behind it would be the Dmitra Flass purchased a lot of land in the wilderness just south of Mulmaster, and when some Thayans needed to relocate out of Thay they were given acreage there to work to support the civil war. She sets her people to improving the lives of everyone in the area, which makes these Mulans actually liked by their neighbors. Then Dmitra dies following the spellplague.Basically, this would have been in the cities of Kurth, Blanaer, King's Reach, and maybe Maskyr's Eye. It would also include ties to the nearby red wizard enclaves in Calaunt, Raven's Bluff, Mulmaster, Procampur, Hillsfar, and Tsurlagol.
I didn't plan on this place being extremely populated or powerful, such that they will not have their own ruling council of mages, and they might become just a subject realm with alliances to say the tharch of Peleveran. So, basically, they are "considering" what to do, but since the whole sundering and places returning just happened in the last 4 or 5 years noone's jumping in and going "yeah, I'm with you". So, for now, maybe the Pelevari setup a portal there to say the little known village of Blanaer (which is a canon place), and they start by exporting herd stock to this city (horses, gazelles, cattle, etc...), and maybe receiving other goods in return.
This is something that I'd written up for that.
"During the years following Dmitra's marriage to High Blade Selfaril, she made strategic investments in land surrounding the vast, and during the Thayan civil war she made improvements in those lands so as to encourage the acceptance of Mulan immigrants. These immigrants remember Dmitra fondly, and her great grandchildren (who are also great grandchildren of the former ruler of Mulmaster, but who forsook their claims to the throne) fill positions of power throughout this region. For instance, surrounding the town of Blanaer she had bought several hundred acres of unused and undeveloped land. The town was previously known for the smell of its cattle and their dung ("stinks like Blanaer" was a common saying in the region), and the Mulan immigrants came in, bringing flowers, building wells, and digging irrigation canals. Now the town is known for its second industry as a land of beautiful flowers and numerous nurseries and its secluded ponds are something of a simple vacation getaway for the poor of Vesperin. The people of Blanaer have accepted their Mulan neighbors happily due to the.
Similarly, in the nearby towns of Kurth and King's Reach there were problems that Dmitra Flass and her Mulan immigrants with their expertise came in and solved. For instance, Kurth was known for having alcohol that was made with essentially recycled urine because they had very little water. King's Reach was known for its numerous miners seeking precious metals (and producing mounds of slag rock over the past several decades). Between these two relatively close cities were mountain passes filled with orcs and goblinoids. The Mulans came in, slaughtered the majority of these nuisance races, animated them as untiring slaves, and then proceeded to cart the unneeded slag rock of King's Reach to build an aqueduct that brought water to both cities. This made the city of King's Reach more amenable to minor farming, as its soil was no long clogged with rocks. This also made the city of Kurth a more popular stopping point for caravans travelling the Vast's interior, as the path from Kurth to King's Reach is now one of the most safe passages in the area, complete with stopping points for watering animals and having simple meals prepared at local Mulan run inns and taverns."
In fact, one of the things I've waffled back and forth on is who these remote trade enclaves would "report" to. I'm talking about forming a tharch out of the wizard's reach cities, and in theory all those remote enclaves were reporting to Samas Kul and the guild of foreign trade until recently. However, I'd also like to have Dmitra Flass tied to all this stuff near Mulmaster. Hmmm, with Samas Kul having died relatively recently (say 12 to 14 years ago if this year is 1491 or 1492), maybe I might even have Dmitra Flass become the new head of the guild of foreign trade. As a beautiful enchanter, she could very much fit the role. That could solve the problem, possibly with her simply letting the current folks in Escalant running things become her underlings. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 16:57:41
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On some of the other stuff you mention above.
Surthay - I can't imagine the Rashemi wanting to capture or settle this territory. I can see them trying to get a treaty of sorts signed which allows them to build up defenses on their border without repercussions, and in return they might offer to support the people of this tharch against any major undead incursions. Perhaps the witches even offer to have witchboats arrive to help transport Thayans in dire need across Lake Mulsantir and into Thesk (bearing in mind the Thayans won't have control of where the boats go, so they'll essentially be putting their lives in the hands of the witches). Similarly, maybe the witches are allowed to setup defensive constructions in Surthay that can actually be turned against the people of Surthay if the witches want to (thinking things like automated spell turrets that the witches setup and control from afar), such that if the hordes of Tam come in the witches can help the people escape, but NOT into Rashemen.
Gauros - On the Songfarla thing... I like the idea of the gnomes leading the humans to safety, but if they did, they DEFINITELY wouldn't reveal themselves. However, look at this from the Class Chronicles on Warmages by Tom Costa.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070425
While many Thayans look down on warmages as narrow-minded louts, they can't deny the usefulness of having a contingent of these casters in their armies. From the perspective of the Red Wizards, warmages make excellent subjects because they are powerful weapons but lack the magical protections to defend themselves against mental control. A band of politically neutral warmages has arisen in Thay in recent years under the leadership of Norano Reked (N Mulan male warmage 14). Calling itself Daarthos Koruna after a strange magical artifact the members discovered in the Sunrise Mountains, the band serves Thay as mercenaries for hire. The Daarthos Koruna are seven circlets that render their wearers undetectable by magical and psionic means. For the most part, the band clears out the ruins of the Sunrise Mountains and Delhumide, but they have been known to perform special missions for a number of zulkirs.
I think we could do a LOT more with this concept. Maybe the gnomes (under guise of illusion... or maybe using illusions, sparkling lights, etc... to guide them) lead the beleaguered people of the tharch of Gauros away into hiding in the Sunrise Mountains, but they lead them to the Daarthos Koruna. Meanwhile maybe the "artifact" that the Daarthos Koruna have uncovered is more like a powerful artifact leftover from ancient Raumathar. Maybe its something akin to a Mythal that protects the people from Tam's spying eyes. So, many of the people of Gauros have been learning to become powerful battlemages.
In fact, from that same article, there's something about a bronze battletower possessed by a ghost of a warmage from ancient Raumathar, but we have no idea where this bronze battletower is other than its in the mountains near Gauros. It may very well be the place involved with the Mythal I mention above, and it may actually have a group of Durthans in exile outside of Rashemen now. The people of Gauros may also be learning Rashemi magic traditions, but from Durthans. Note, this Bronze Battletower and the ghost Vostas (telthor?) are mentioned in Lost Empires of Faerun.... and its specifically noted in the Gauros section...
The ancient Raumathari battlemages were some of the most fearsome examples of warmages in Faerûnian history. While many of the battlemages were wizards and sorcerers, a significant portion of was made up of warmages. The art of this forlorn empire may be mostly lost, but those few who still practice it are extremely dangerous. Raumathari battlemagic involves a mixture of both destructive arcane magic with swordplay, blending the two in terrifying destructive synergy. When the Bronze Battletower (UnE -- the home of the powerful Raumathari battlemage Vostas) was under siege, her lover, a warmage by the name of Welbohn Khuul, defended it to his last breath. It is believed that Welbohn's spirit was absorbed into the tower after his death, leaving the warmage to haunt the tower forever. Locals whisper that the current resident, a renegade Wychlaran by the name of Iaokhna Nuchlev (NE female Rashemi sorcerer 3/druid 3/durthan[UnE] 3), is being driven mad by Welbohn Khuul's spirit (CN Raumathari male human ghost swashbuckler 3/warmage 6/Raumathari battlemage 10). Khuul is trying to drive out the durthan in the hopes of bringing students back to the Bronze Battletower to study battlemagic. He can't drive her out himself, because she hides in a room that is shielded from him in his undead state.
this from LEoF
GAUROS
Several old Raumathari ruins dot this remote, mountainous section of Thay. Most notable among them is the Bronze Battletower built by the ancient Raumathari mage Vostas. Foreseeing her empire’s impending doom, Vostas concealed her battletower with formidable warding spells that rendered it invisible and undetectable by magic. Vostas died when Raumathar fell, and the battletower has been passed down through her descendants. The current owner is Iarokhna Nuchlev (NE female human sorcerer 3/druid 3/durthan 2), a renegade Wychlaran. The epic spell that Vostas used to conceal the Bronze Battletower still functions, keeping Iarokhna and the Raumathari secrets in the tower well hidden. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 17:10:54
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On Eltabbar, Delhumide, Pyarados and Tyraturos - I'd keep these as under Thayan control. Its probably best in the end so that Thay could still be a significant enough entity still. Change is good, but I think this should be a bit in moderation.
Oh, and on the above with Gauros, I would have the humans gone, but I'd stick those humanoids that serve Thay there... maybe having taken over the houses of all the humans that have fled. I wouldn't give up the territory. It should be Tam's to command.
On the Surthay thing, I would have them not necessarily "declaring independence" so much as trying to ignore envoys, maybe killing tax collectors privately, and the negotiations with the witches should be in secret. The common folk maybe don't even know who is providing these defenses or that the witches have agreed to come to their aid, but maybe they're more afraid of their own countrymen now than they are worried about Rashemen, and thus there's a truce of sorts that's lasted over a century now. They probably still live in fear of Tam, but the "rebellion is growing". But the leaders of the community are trying to free themselves and their people. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 21:03:52
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The four Tharches you mentioned pretty-much ARE Thay in what I wrote. The only difference is that Szass Tam has influence over the two northern Tharches (Delhumide is merely 'secretly allied', which could just be out of convenience and the Animus running things will just as easily support the southern Tharches if its to his benefit, especially since he suspects Tam isn't really 'around' anymore). As for the Vampire(ss) in charge of Eltabbar - I am toying with the idea that this is either the original Dmitra (not sure if that is doable - I need to finish the novels), or a vampire clone (like what happened to Manshoon in Westgate). Either way, Szass Tam took control (through his lich powers) of this person, and then put that control in a ring (she wears a pendant - one of those gaudy bat-thingies all vampires wear LOL). Now, with Szass tam currently 'occupied' (in Ravenloft), some other very powerful lich who works for Tam has the ring, and is directing her as if he is Tam. If she ever realizes it isn't Szass Tam himself, she may try to break that control, although its unknown whether she could succeed or not.
Thus, the two Tharches not entirely independent of Thaymount may be more independent then folks realize (even themselves). In the meantime, since Tam hasn't been giving either of them any orders (other than them reporting back everything like good little spies... and the Animus even holds things back... and they know he is, because of the vamp), they are free to act independently for the most part, and be 'good' allies to the two southern provinces. Thus, Thaymount is one 'country' (like FR's version of Mordor, but with undead), the first plateau is another country (thay, but its more of a republic... which it really always was anyway - the four remaining Tharches act independently), and the only thing thats still Thay below the plateau is Bezantur, and the only reason why they even still grant a Tharchy to its ruler (the mostly-defunct Priador) is because they still have high hopes of taking the Sorcerer's Reach (you'd think they'd finally give up on that, but NO).
Lapendrar is essentially its own country now. However, as I said earlier, I consider this 'as of the end of 4e' (so the day after the Sundering), and I fully expect all of it to change - we've had a couple of years go by already, so major things may have already happened (my thoughts here is that Tam did manage to make it back from Ravenloft - Ao's Sundering gave him enough 'umph' to push his way back in, finally, since it was a very generic, wish-style magic "put everything back to how it was", and things like Szass tam were able to use that). So, he may be biding his time, getting 'the lay of the land' again, or he may have made moves the moment he got back. It can go either way - its more like I am establishing a little pre-history for 5e, rather than saying "whats there now". In fact, its more like I am trying to smooth the transition from 4e lore into 5e lore (which looks suspiciously like 1e/2e/3e lore).
The only thing I might want to keep (if I was making these decisions at WotC) is some aspect of Lapendrar as its own country, even after most of it gets folded back into Thay (which I assume it will... unless you don't want it to). I like Thay having a city on the coast of the easting Reach - that would drive Aglarond nuts. Maybe just keep the hilly/mountainous regions there as 'Milvarra' or some such, based around Milvarune. Another 'almost country', like Altumbel, Ashanath, and Threskel. Accept that it isn't - it would still just be a puppet of Thay, one of those 'worst kept secrets'.
I want to recreate Thay mostly like it was in 1e/2e, but keep certain aspects of 3e (the enclaves), but respinning them by combining it with the 4e lore 9that the Red Wizards operate EVERYWHERE), and keep Szass tam as the Sauron-like figures he's become, but make him so concerned with 'other-worldy' matters that he ignores whats going on on the plateau below him (not so much 'ignore', as that he currently has other things on his mind. He does plan to retake all of Thay, and everything else, but he thinks this time he has to get godhood first). Meanwhile, Thay and the Red Wizards operating as they are are furthering his long range plans, since people are beginning to accept them as something other than 'kill on sight'. I also want to keep the Red Wizards semi-independent of Thay itself, in much the same way the greater Zhentarrim organization was much more than just Zhentil Keep.
And this syncs-up with my ideas about Ilighôn; that the Elves have secretly taken over the organization - a group itself heavily infiltrated by the Eldreth Veluthra. This will also explain their all-pervasive presence everywhere in 5e (since it looks like they are keeping that from 4, and we need to explain WHY these two groups have suddenly become so monolithic). The Harpers need no explanation - they were always annoying busy-bodies. There's that other group, but I think they're just connected to the rise in power of the Citystates in The North (and I feel both Waterdeep and Neverwinter should be making some claims on the territory around them... Waterdeep already does, in canon). I want the factions thing to make sense within the greater lore.
I'd also like their to be a fifth faction - 'The Adventurer's Guild', formed from the old Adventurer's clubs in Cormyr and Waterdeep, the 'royal cartographers' of Cormyr, and scribes of the Heralds and candlekeep (both of those would be more like 'patrons', then actually be 'in' the group). If they are going to borrow clever game concepts from Paizo, they may as well go full-tilt (and really, we had those things before - they just were never focused on). Having a place where adventurers can pick up assignments not only makes things way easier for a DM, but it its a good trope from anime, and anime is very popular right now. And such a group - unlike the current four - doesn't have an agenda (that we know of) - its basically, "Hey! We hear there is cool stuff over there! Go check it out!" {and bring us back logs and and maps}
One can assume some assignments are sponsored more than others - trading costers would probably be VERY good for this. It would also help introduce characters to the 'big picture' of how the world works (because government might be the machinery, but merchants 'keep the gears greased'). Oh, and one last thought struck me - this is where Aurora's should end up. Attached to these 'guild halls' as a supply depot. Change the lore by using the lore, and enhance it (rather than just 'nuke' it). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jan 2018 21:04:46 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 21:29:50
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On some of the other stuff you mention above.
Surthay - I can't imagine the Rashemi wanting to capture or settle this territory. I can see them trying to get a treaty of sorts signed which allows them to build up defenses on their border without repercussions, and in return they might offer to support the people of this tharch against any major undead incursions. Perhaps the witches even offer to have witchboats arrive to help transport Thayans in dire need across Lake Mulsantir and into Thesk (bearing in mind the Thayans won't have control of where the boats go, so they'll essentially be putting their lives in the hands of the witches). Similarly, maybe the witches are allowed to setup defensive constructions in Surthay that can actually be turned against the people of Surthay if the witches want to (thinking things like automated spell turrets that the witches setup and control from afar), such that if the hordes of Tam come in the witches can help the people escape, but NOT into Rashemen.
Gauros - On the Songfarla thing... I like the idea of the gnomes leading the humans to safety, but if they did, they DEFINITELY wouldn't reveal themselves. However, look at this from the Class Chronicles on Warmages by Tom Costa.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070425
Thats al fine - this was very 'bare bones', because my ideas for the place are very bare-bones. Surthay, for instance, I see just paying 'lip service' to whoever shows up with any force. they really just want to be left alone at this point. And you are right about Gauros - I don't think the gnomes revealed themselves on-purpose. i am sure they did everything thy could to conceal their involvement. Hoever, undead are unaffected by illusions, and that's a BIG problem for the gnomes. They think they got away with it, for the most part, but many people in power scryed what was really going on... they just haven't done anything with the information yet.
As for canon being broken. Its not like I can't bend the heck out f it any worse than WotC has already done. I'm just fudging some stuff. The '4e Thay' existed immediately following the spellplague, and then sometime after Szass tam got trapped by the 'Dark Powers' (I am going to go with that they didn't come for him, he just showed up on their doorstep - he was trying to find other 'things' he could use from the Shadowfell for his own plans, and stumbled into RL). So most of what I conjecture occurring could have happened in the past 10-15 years (like maybe 1475-1488 DR), but the plans were laid well in advance, before these groups began to systematically retake the second plateau. I think a decade is plenty of time to move against the undead and defeat them, if their leaders aren't really giving a crap (they are too busy trying to help or find Szass Tam - they may even be in a state of panic). The whole 'Tammy's vacation in Barovia' sub-plot get shoe-horned in, between the editions. i think it can fit.
Unless you've got better ideas how to make new Thay back into old Thay without too many ripples, while keeping nearly all the in-between canon in place (including the new all-pervasive Red Wizard presence). The ONLY way (that I can see) to get Thay back to anything like it was is to move szass tam offstage, even if just for a short time. RL is just a plot device.
And we really lose nothing - we actually gain a bunch of stuff (no point in getting rid of Tam's Mordor-like Thaymount - it isn't hurting anyone, and no-one really went there anyway). Also, since his jaunt in the Shadowfell, Tam should be on-par with Larloch now. I suppose that's a given, with everything that happened in the novels.
We need a new 'control' mechanism on Szass tam, especially since his power has increased exponentially. I think he could probably kill the Simbul with a snap of his fingers at this point. Thus, his 'worrying' about the incursion of outsider liches. Undead have a very strict hierarchy, and 'lower levs' get commanded by higher ones. the existing Uber-liches on Toril may have even got together to form a united front against this (a 'secret war' with the Eminence of Araunt, perhaps?) This will give us a 'behind the curtain' hidden cold-war that can keep the uber-baddies busy in a sensical way, until we are ready to play with them.
You know what would be a kick in the head? If Larloch was forced to recollect Halaster's soul shards and bring his old enemy back, because he needs help. That would be EPIC. Szass Tam would not feel so high and mighty standing in a room with those two (and Iouluam, and Tan Chin, and Shoon, and that fat guy... forget his name...{Twinkie-muncher the Undying?})  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2018 : 23:15:45
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And just for Poops & Giggles - A map of the political borders in MY 5e Thay.
You can see that the way I am picturing the new country of Lapendrar - its nearly as big as Aglarond! (and when you actually draw the borders in, you realize how small Aglarond really is). I put a border around Alaor, even though I haven't (re)given it 'Tharch' status. Also, Eltabbar (the capitol city) is shared between the four remaining Tharchs (as I said, Pyriador IS a Tharch, but its really just the one city at this point). Since I used the 2e map here, some of the geography isn't quite correct (although, we actually don't really know that right now, do we?) I am also allowing for Ashanath to be a bit more of an actual 'realm' in 5e (if only because Laprendrar has future designs of absorbing ALL of Thesk, and the folk living in Ashanath don't want any part of that eventuality - they rather join Rashemen, if push comes to shove).
The 'Duchy of Varlstag' is another side-project I am working on.
Doing this mock-up made me realize that a good chunk of eastern Thay used to NOT be on the plateau, including the whole of Lake Eltabber. Thats interesting. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jan 2018 23:46:55 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 01:04:00
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| Tan Chin is a Nec 18 compared to Tam's 29, chances are that the assembled liches would laugh at him instead. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 02:51:16
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| That was a long time ago. Since the Spellplague, he's level 112. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 04:03:57
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Tan Chin is a Nec 18 compared to Tam's 29, chances are that the assembled liches would laugh at him instead.
Tan Chin is much more bad-ass. The level difference is only the difference in publication. Tan chin is more along the lines of a Southern Zhengi.
I can't figure out why they haven't killed Tam yet. Eltab wants him dead. Therefore he should be dead already unless he's hiding out of reach. Demons trump undead every time. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 04:33:27
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Tam Chin is as old as Telamont. Telamont has twice Tam Chin's levels.
I'm not seeing where his badassery is coming from. Manshoon is a better spellcaster, and Manshoon is Faerun's equivalent of Team Rocket. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 05:14:38
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I don't know where you got 18th level lich from - probably some later publication written by someone who never actually played the Empires Series, but that is just plain wrong. Tan chin is not a lich, he's a unique undead being, who is not even actually IN the realms. That's right - the baddy you are seeing (just a couple eyes) is basically an avatar he uses his magic to project into the realms from his personal plane. The eyes had 12 HD not 18. Level has nothing to do with it. He doesn't memorize spells like a lich either. He can cast any necromancy spell he wants at will. Boom. Done.
Plus he has his army of dowagu - basically a race of demons that Tan Chin CREATED - thats right, he created the entire race. Szass Tam uses spells to make zombies, and when he gets bold enough he tries and fails to bind demons. Tan Chin MAKES his own demons that are unswervingly loyal.
The ONLY way to defeat Chin was to gather 5 MAJOR artifacts, one of which was made in the first place to destroy him, and then do something specific with them. Now the adventures obviously have that path laid out for you, because that's the whole idea - its fun to overcome impossible odds. I personally think (having played and run the adventures more than one) that doing all this doesn't even destroy Tan Chin - just his connection to Toril. His "phylactery" is actually the focus for his magical connection. So you need to destroy his physical form and then cut him off from the realms. That last bit is purely my own interpretation, however.
PS - No idea what team rocket is, but Manshoon is one of the most effective villains in the Realms. From basically nothing he created an empire that dominated or threatened THE ENTIRE CONTINENT of Faerun. If your players are not afraid of him you are using him wrong. That's not on him, its on you. And again, even if by some miracle you actually manage to beat him, you have not won because he comes back. Remember - he might lose a few fights to the Chosen of Mystra, but they NEVER manage to beat him. the most powerful wielders of magic on the planet cannot end this guy and struggle in vain for centuries to stop his Zhentarim. All that said, where do you get the idea that Manshoon is a better spellcaster? That's baseless as well. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 09:16:40
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Lost Empires of Faerun, page 65. He's a nec 18.
Manshoon is analogous to Team Rocket because he's only effective when he's in the background. He and the Zhents are like the Keystone Cops of the Realms; claiming that the most powerful wielders of magic can't stop this guy is flat-out wrong. The Simbul could waltz into Avernus and butcher baatezu by the thousands, the only reason Elminster hasn't simply had enough, scryed out Manshoon's clone labs and spent a night wiping every trace of him off the face of the Earth is purely author fiat. Almost every appearance by Manshoon has him dying; there's an Elminster novel where he shows up in the last few pages and gets blown up via archlich kamikaze. Hell, the Shade utterly crippled the Zhents when they were sufficiently annoyed. I mean, it's not like the most powerful mages in the Realms have tried, unless Manshoon crossed Larloch, Ioulaum, Shoon or the Twisted Rune and somehow survived a bunch of epic wizards frying him.
It's not a good showing when your villains become running jokes. Ask anyone who's not familiar with Ed Greenwood's in-house campaigns about Manshoon, and "Sauron-lite" would be the last thing on their minds. It doesn't matter what Ed says about Manshoon when his printed showings have made him a villainous laughingstock, to the extent that in the same edition the Zhents became competent, he was killed off, his clones went awry, and his job was taken by Fzoul. Sure, his empire "threatens Faerun", but if any of the higher powers were genuinely annoyed, he'd be a goner. Alustriel, Szass and the Zulkirs, the Rune, the Simbul and Zalathorm can and will wipe out the Black Network if they have sufficient reason for it. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 10:30:01
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Lost Empires is wrong. As I said, an entry in a later publication by someone who didn't know better or was trying to impose themselves. A lot of that happened, but you're much better off going to the source. Play the Empires Series as DM - but remove the Stone Scepter. Then watch as your PCs get slaughtered and become his puppets, no matter what level you have them at.
As for Manshoon, you basically proved the point. Yes, the "archlich kamikaze" as you call it killed one Manshoon. ONE Manshoon. And El points out how incredible it was but that it was a waste. Why? His clone was already active and getting busy.
The Fzoul fiasco (what I call the god-awful writing that turned the tool Fzoul into a god-powered conquering machine) aside, if you read the Manshoon Wars entry you will see it says exactly what I'm telling you. The clone becoming active didn't make him less dangerous, they made him more dangerous. The last few novels he's been in his right back to being a major baddy, but Ed tells us that is not even the most powerful Manshoon. And what Ed says always matters - its the trump card in this game, because its his game. Szass and the Zukirs tried and failed. The Rune is basically a southern version of Manshoon working behind the scenes. Alustriel, the Simbul, Zalathorm all died just like Manshoon. Some are resurrected but that's the point.
Comparisons to Sauron are labored, since he's a Maia and there is no direct correlation - though I guess you could call Maia demigods. So maybe you could compare him with Iuz from Greyhawk if you really wanted. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 10:32:58
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On an alternate sub-topic - does anyone think Maligor is still alive. Its yet another Zulkir maybe killed off-stage death. He would be a good one to be waiting in the shadows re-building his power for a chance to kill Tam.
I'm also going to pose this ? in the Zulkirs thread. |
Edited by - The Masked Mage on 12 Jan 2018 10:34:27 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 12:03:55
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Whilst I absolutely enjoy and respect the hard work you have done here sleyvas, I can’t but help despair at what WotC did to Thay to sell a few novels.
— George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 12 Jan 2018 12:04:33 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 13:04:45
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| Deja Vous |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 13:24:19
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Whilst I absolutely enjoy and respect the hard work you have done here sleyvas, I can’t but help despair at what WotC did to Thay the sell a few novels.
— George Krashos
Yeah. I loved reading those novels, while at the same time, they SOOO tugged at my heart-strings for WHAT was done. It is kind of why I went left field and started this "United Tharchs of Toril" concept, which has been fun just for the idea of throwing things out. I know it will never EVER get official acceptance, but talking things through does I think bring out ideas in the community.
That being said... officially in canon, Tam still owns the place, and any past zulkirs would have to be trying to reseize it. This of course sets up the perfect setup to involve adventurers in countless scenarios working for one side or the other. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 12 Jan 2018 13:52:17 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 19:43:40
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The Rune is basically a southern version of Manshoon working behind the scenes.
No.
Please, talk just about what you know and leave this honorable cabal out of the old debate about who is stronger in what System of Measurement.
Thanks. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 21:18:32
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Yeah, they are judging Tan Chin by D&D levels, when you need to look at the lore. In 1e, Elminster was lower level than Khelben, and yet he could snap his fingers and make Khelben disappear if he wanted to (He did do that to Khelben's Blacksaff, which should have been IMPOSSIBLE (like taking away the Silver Surfer's board), and Khelben was shocked, and was even like, "How the hell did you just do that?" And that was in Spellfire, so a VERY early novel, when those 'levels' should have applied.
Tan Chin is way older than Telemont - Nethril was a 'flash-in-the-pan to the Imaskari. Also, he didn't die at the end of those modules, MaskedMage - Brian James wrote a little lore concerning him and Ra-Khati in 4e (which he slightly altered the names because it had to be 'core'), and when I asked him why Tan Chin was still alive, he said that he assumed the heroes in the modules were unsuccessful. We are so used to taking published adventures and thinking that that future lore will ALWAYS show success, that it never dawns on us that the opposite could have been true. Tan Chin was NOT destroyed.
I rectified this by replacing one of the artifacts with a fake, so while Tan Chin may have been severely weakened by the whole affair (think of those things like the Horcruxes in Harry Potter), he was still able to come back. This means gamers could have played through it (as your group did), and been 'successful' with the published outcome, and him still be 'alive' (as alive as a lich gets - and BTW, he's a Suel {ghost} Lich) afterwards.
I've even managed to salvage him from that core lore Brian wrote (in Open Grave), by saying that similar-sounding name was really a protégé. Other 'heroes' from the modules were also there, but I couldn't save them - they sadly needed to die for the greater good. 
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Whilst I absolutely enjoy and respect the hard work you have done here sleyvas, I can’t but help despair at what WotC did to Thay to sell a few novels.
— George Krashos
I could have sworn this was MY thread. LOL
Sleyvas is doing the 'United Tharchs' thing, and although I am not using any of that here, I did try to leave it as open as possible so the two could possibly still work together. For example, where he went with his United Tharchs, I am doing with my Red Wizard Enclaves (which have becomes schools of magic, all over the Realms, which helps explain their omnipresense in 4e/5e). My schools serve the same function as his enclaves, but cleaves somewhat closer to the canon (IMO). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jan 2018 21:25:50 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2018 : 00:33:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We are so used to taking published adventures and thinking that that future lore will ALWAYS show success, that it never dawns on us that the opposite could have been true.
Too true. One of the reasons I always argue with people who say Szass Tam is a badass is I personally killed him once playing spellbound. Granted Eltab did some of the heavy lifting but still - his skull was one of my favorite trophies :) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2018 : 00:56:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, they are judging Tan Chin by D&D levels, when you need to look at the lore. In 1e, Elminster was lower level than Khelben, and yet he could snap his fingers and make Khelben disappear if he wanted to (He did do that to Khelben's Blacksaff, which should have been IMPOSSIBLE (like taking away the Silver Surfer's board), and Khelben was shocked, and was even like, "How the hell did you just do that?" And that was in Spellfire, so a VERY early novel, when those 'levels' should have applied.
Tan Chin is way older than Telemont - Nethril was a 'flash-in-the-pan to the Imaskari. Also, he didn't die at the end of those modules, MaskedMage - Brian James wrote a little lore concerning him and Ra-Khati in 4e (which he slightly altered the names because it had to be 'core'), and when I asked him why Tan Chin was still alive, he said that he assumed the heroes in the modules were unsuccessful. We are so used to taking published adventures and thinking that that future lore will ALWAYS show success, that it never dawns on us that the opposite could have been true. Tan Chin was NOT destroyed.
I rectified this by replacing one of the artifacts with a fake, so while Tan Chin may have been severely weakened by the whole affair (think of those things like the Horcruxes in Harry Potter), he was still able to come back. This means gamers could have played through it (as your group did), and been 'successful' with the published outcome, and him still be 'alive' (as alive as a lich gets - and BTW, he's a Suel {ghost} Lich) afterwards.
I've even managed to salvage him from that core lore Brian wrote (in Open Grave), by saying that similar-sounding name was really a protégé. Other 'heroes' from the modules were also there, but I couldn't save them - they sadly needed to die for the greater good.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Whilst I absolutely enjoy and respect the hard work you have done here sleyvas, I can’t but help despair at what WotC did to Thay to sell a few novels.
— George Krashos
I could have sworn this was MY thread. LOL
Sleyvas is doing the 'United Tharchs' thing, and although I am not using any of that here, I did try to leave it as open as possible so the two could possibly still work together. For example, where he went with his United Tharchs, I am doing with my Red Wizard Enclaves (which have becomes schools of magic, all over the Realms, which helps explain their omnipresense in 4e/5e). My schools serve the same function as his enclaves, but cleaves somewhat closer to the canon (IMO).
Yeah, that's where I'm taking it too. I'm looking at some of your ideas, but throwing in fixes, because in the end.... I do want to fix Thay. I just don't see a path forward without a "WHAM RESET" to have it instantaneous. So.... baby steps. If that means some of the lower escarpments are "in flux" but the rest is still the same, that's working towards the end goal. Also, for me, it wasn't about the place... it was the concept and how the people acted. So, if the Thaymount is now off-limits but the wizards' reach is now a prosperous area with weather controlled farming.... works for me.
In the end, my work is improved by using people as a sounding board....just like the other day I was talking about having Innarlith inhabited by drow.... yeah... bad idea... overdone. But, putting someone else... someone decidedly from Abeir... in Innarlith (maybe having transferred from Abeir via the plagueland or the Chondalwood) that could be fun, since its already ruins. For instance, I had been thinking about dragonborn... but maybe dragonkin (and thus winged).... or maybe those Abeiran trolls that I was picturing and have Innarlith totally grown over with jungle in the past century. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2018 : 01:34:20
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My 'final solution' is that Thay becomes Thay again, like it used to be. As I said earlier in the thread, this lore would be like in the 'Year of the Ageless One' (Year one of the 4e era, actually), and now that we've moved into the 5e era, some of the subplots I put in here will have already played-out.
The only thing I would keep from the 4e era (because WAY too much lore happened in the novel series) is that Szass Tam is still 'up there' in Thaymount, and the rest of the country just tries to pretend the last escarpment isn't even there (for the most part). They obviously fear the day when he decides to turn his attentions back to Thay, but in the mean time, something is keeping him busy.
The idea of the Ravenloft plot device was just to buy us some time where 'old school' Thayan elements could have retaken parts of Thay. We have to keep Tam busy somehow, and there's not a lot that could occupy a guy like that. I also would say he is already 'back' from whatever that was (whether you use the RL thing or your own McGuffin), but for some reason he isn't at full strength, OR, he is building up his strength for something else entirely, OR, there is a 'greater threat' that no-one but him is aware of that is keeping him busy ATM (like maybe an 'Elder Evil' or some such followed him back home?)
I want to ask everyone something.... since the novel series, its going to be nearly impossible to put everything back the way it was. We can fix Thay itself, but we'd have to lose Tam. He's just not going to 'settle for less' anymore. How would you guys handle this problem?
I am thinking some sort of 'incursion' most others aren't aware of. Maybe some 'big bad' in the D&Dverse - like Vecna - or something we haven't heard of before. This thing has brought a piece of its own world with it - maybe in the nearby Great Ice Sea, or even superimposed over part of the Hordleands, or even Kara-Tur (although that's a bit out of way, if we are trying to keep him around). Or we could move him completely the other way - maybe off the coast of Faerûn, on the Sword Coast. There are plenty of islands there. Heck, we could even give him one of the Moonshaes. Or we could create a brand new island and say it came over with Abeir (and then we can even blame the Eminence of Araunt). That way, Szass Tam could go and do an all-out attack on that place (and take it), and the Thayans can move to retake Thaymount while he is preoccupied. Once he has what he wants (maybe the place has some sort of necro-power source), he'll no longer care about Thay... at least, that's how I'd fix it. Then we go back to a bunch of Zulkirs in Thay and its business-as-usual, except we gained a Sauron/Mordor like plot device to use whenever we want.
One problem with the Sword Coast (even though its otherwise ideal, because thats where most of the 5e stuff is taking place) - Larloch. that's HIS stomping grounds, and if its Larloch that Szass Tam bumps heads with (I wouldn't do that, but whatever), then we'd have to then find a new spot for Larloch (if we are trying to say Tam wins... which is why I would NOT do this). With such a big power-play, one of them would have to wind-up in the Shadowfell, me thinks (which isn't a bad idea - give Larloch Netheril... that could work). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jan 2018 01:40:11 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2018 : 11:49:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
... They obviously fear the day when he decides to turn his attentions back to Thay, but in the mean time, something is keeping him busy. ...
... but for some reason he isn't at full strength, OR, he is building up his strength for something else entirely ...
... Maybe some 'big bad' in the D&Dverse ...
... Larloch ...
My personal Realms and Thay are completely different but since you're asking for ideas I'll put forward the following.
We know that Larloch has countless (there have been losses and whatnot but we haven't really known for sure the precise number so it's still "countless" for me) servitor liches, some probably quite powerful or "peculiar" like Rhaugilath (statted at 32nd level in the 3/3.5 era) and he thoroughly commands them (with slips only when something really big happens), so he has ways to compel and control lichnee that (rightly) we know nothing of.
Since in my mind you don't get so old and so powerful without developing personality quirks, I think that one of Larloch's quirks is that he likes to "collect" powerful liches and unique undeads as both servitors and trophies of his supremacy.
So in the old days Pre-Spellplague Tam was just one among many liches striving for power and they got into an agreement so Tam could grow into something different.
Now Tam has grown, and he is worthy of being in Larloch's trophy room.
How I picture it is that Larloch worked some of his unique magic in every contact with Tam, subtle but powerful enchantments were laid in all his gifts to Tam and were activated and took hold. But Tam has got powerful on his own and has gone from realizing something was not right to understanding that Larloch is out for him now and some of his bindings are already in place so that's scary as nothing else to poor Tam and he just dives into full on paranoia. He doesn't act against the Red Wizards and the rest of Thay because he feels the need to have every last one of its zombies and monsters and magic missiles ready for the impending doom, at the same time he probably spends a lot of time wandering astrally projected or in similar ways to try and find a different base (a castle on a mountain is not going to stop Larloch, a demiplane may give Tam more of an edge).
The confrontation will probably never happen (in the near future) but Tam fears that whatever he does, if it gets him even 1% down from full power, he may be opening himself up for aggression from one of the only players on Toril he always feared.
So Tam waits, paralyzed by fear and paranoia, completely ignoring Thay and focusing on his own survival.
Of course this could be just on the background and cover the years you had Tam spending in Ravenloft so at the start of the campaign time you can have Tam finally going off "somewhere" where he feels he is safer (not entirely safe though) and from where he can launch occasional assaults on Thay forces while they slowly retake the Thaymount from all the things he has left behind (Tam would've moved most if not all of his riches, artifacts, books, laboratories, magical thingies and whatnot but he may have left behind a lot of traps, hordes of minor undeads and monster that he deemed useless in his hypotethic showdown). Oh and people (even other leaders) in Thay are most probably not aware that Tam is not there anymore (any wards will remain in place so no scryng or other easy ways of finding it out) so each step, each battle, each incursion of Thay forces is pondered with the "He can get out any minute" attitude that slows everything down, making the reunification of Thay a long and perilous process.
All the while, Larloch waits. |
Edited by - Demzer on 13 Jan 2018 11:53:47 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2018 : 15:50:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My 'final solution' is that Thay becomes Thay again, like it used to be. As I said earlier in the thread, this lore would be like in the 'Year of the Ageless One' (Year one of the 4e era, actually), and now that we've moved into the 5e era, some of the subplots I put in here will have already played-out.
The only thing I would keep from the 4e era (because WAY too much lore happened in the novel series) is that Szass Tam is still 'up there' in Thaymount, and the rest of the country just tries to pretend the last escarpment isn't even there (for the most part). They obviously fear the day when he decides to turn his attentions back to Thay, but in the mean time, something is keeping him busy.
The idea of the Ravenloft plot device was just to buy us some time where 'old school' Thayan elements could have retaken parts of Thay. We have to keep Tam busy somehow, and there's not a lot that could occupy a guy like that. I also would say he is already 'back' from whatever that was (whether you use the RL thing or your own McGuffin), but for some reason he isn't at full strength, OR, he is building up his strength for something else entirely, OR, there is a 'greater threat' that no-one but him is aware of that is keeping him busy ATM (like maybe an 'Elder Evil' or some such followed him back home?)
I want to ask everyone something.... since the novel series, its going to be nearly impossible to put everything back the way it was. We can fix Thay itself, but we'd have to lose Tam. He's just not going to 'settle for less' anymore. How would you guys handle this problem?
I am thinking some sort of 'incursion' most others aren't aware of. Maybe some 'big bad' in the D&Dverse - like Vecna - or something we haven't heard of before. This thing has brought a piece of its own world with it - maybe in the nearby Great Ice Sea, or even superimposed over part of the Hordleands, or even Kara-Tur (although that's a bit out of way, if we are trying to keep him around). Or we could move him completely the other way - maybe off the coast of Faerûn, on the Sword Coast. There are plenty of islands there. Heck, we could even give him one of the Moonshaes. Or we could create a brand new island and say it came over with Abeir (and then we can even blame the Eminence of Araunt). That way, Szass Tam could go and do an all-out attack on that place (and take it), and the Thayans can move to retake Thaymount while he is preoccupied. Once he has what he wants (maybe the place has some sort of necro-power source), he'll no longer care about Thay... at least, that's how I'd fix it. Then we go back to a bunch of Zulkirs in Thay and its business-as-usual, except we gained a Sauron/Mordor like plot device to use whenever we want.
One problem with the Sword Coast (even though its otherwise ideal, because thats where most of the 5e stuff is taking place) - Larloch. that's HIS stomping grounds, and if its Larloch that Szass Tam bumps heads with (I wouldn't do that, but whatever), then we'd have to then find a new spot for Larloch (if we are trying to say Tam wins... which is why I would NOT do this). With such a big power-play, one of them would have to wind-up in the Shadowfell, me thinks (which isn't a bad idea - give Larloch Netheril... that could work).
I'm trying to stick CLOSE to canon, so that's why I'd recommend sticking the second escarpment as still under his control as well. The lowest escarpment is the largest area, and its controls should maybe be "in flux", with rebellion occurring (tax collectors getting killed by robbers, castles being taken over and new autharchs being put in place... maybe a new Tharchion being chosen who refuses to report to Tam.... meanwhile the old Tharchion is still alive and in city X... and most autharchs are simply not claiming allegiance to either and trying to see what happens). Some of the portions of territories may secede entirely and try to do something new or join someone else.
As to Tam and what to do with him... its already written in. He wants to find some new land and try his ritual again. That land could easily be Chult. However, one of the things I was proposing the other day was to send a portion of the desert of desolation to abeir (Skysea and Medinat Muskawoon) and bring a portion of Abeir to Toril that folks haven't been focused on because of its remoteness. So, maybe there's this rich land on the edge of the Raurin desert (and by rich, I mean full of life).... and he's been building dread rings there over the past century.... and killing anyone that approached the area, so that's why no one knows about it.
The question then becomes, what actually happens when he completes his ritual? Does it do what he thought, or was he duped by Leira and that book (which in theory didn't appear until after the Cyrinishad did.... so it could be a "transformation" of the Cyrinishad, which may be an avatar of Leira).
As a sidenote to that, the Imaskari leaving Mulhorand are fleeing to this area. Allies? Potential Enemies? Do they recognize the dread rings and are attempting to take them over and subvert their purpose? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2018 : 19:35:34
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So how about this - Szass Tam isn't up on Thaymount anymore, but none of the creatures/people still there want anyone to know that (I had some of that in my write-up, but the assumption there was that this was no longer the case). Maybe even a coalition of those Imaskari Mages took-over the place? Thus, to the world at large - including the rest of Thay - Szass Tam is still up on Thaymount, plotting and planning, and they are all living with paranoia. The truth is, others are 'making appearances' from time to time, just to make people think that is the case. Thus, we have Thay back to the way it was... but not really (after all, there has to be some difference left-over form that novel series!)
I really love the idea of yours, Demzer - it has a LOT of traction (and is based on past lore, from the Nethril box, that the two had 'dealings'). With that, we could even say that Szass Tam is 'in on' the hoax that he is still up on Thaymount, operating as usual, and in the mean time, he is planes-hopping or whatever. My love of mapping had me so taken with the idea of a Morder-like 'ebil island' off the coast, I hadn't even considered Tam NOT 'winning', and instead being 'in hiding'. We could literally put him anywhere, like Winterkeep, etc. In fact, it might be more fun - and more useful from a gaming standpoint - to have him 'move about' constantly - give him several different bases of operation. He's so paranoid now he doesn't stay in any one place too long (did we just turn him into Orichimaru? Nah... Orichimaru is WAY more interesting than Tam).
Thus, he becomes a 'use anywhere' villain, which is better for D&D (he can even appear in other settings!), and when the PCs finally kick down the last door to confront him... he's already gone. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jan 2018 19:37:48 |
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Another take on Thay 5.0
