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Originally posted by LordofBones
Kyuss is a god, though. The instant Vecna became a demipower, the Dark Powers threw him out. The Demiplane of Dread wants no part of deific politics.

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Originally posted by Mirtek

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Originally posted by LordofBones
Kyuss is a god, though. The instant Vecna became a demipower, the Dark Powers threw him out. The Demiplane of Dread wants no part of deific politics.

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Actually Vecna wa a demigod when he was captured. It was the boldest move the Dark Powers ever did and they could barely contain him. The second he ascended to lesser deityhood, he just broke out, the Dark Powers could hardly hold a demigod, the could not hold a full fledged lesser deity

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I see odd that nobody has mentioned that Kyuss operated out of Maztica in both the adventure path and in the Elder Evils plot hook.

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Be more specific

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Ah - well, you're the Columbian :P Guess you'd know better what they'd like than we :)

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Originally posted by Shadowsoul

Thanks for the info. The only problem I'm having is the fact that he hasn't been mentioned in Realm's past, with good reason. Someone like Kyuss would have stood out had he not beem shoe horned into the Realms by the current edition. This is why just throwing anything into the Realms doesn't fit.

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Originally posted by LordofBones

Kyuss is pretty much a joke, though. Nerull doesn't like him much, and the power that usurped his ascension is much more powerful than he is. The other powers of undeath have much more to offer prospective worshippers than he does. Kyuss is not a patron of sentient undead; his creations are mindess, slavering things sent to rend and slaughter the living. Sentient undead, when they bother to worship anything at all, turn towards the evil deities of their living days or to the patrons of their respective kinds (i.e. Kiaransalee, Kanchelsis, Mellifleur, Velsharoon).

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

But isn't the "Age of Worm" incanonical for the Realms, as well? I mean, the author said that the AP isn't canon. Or something like that (the whole stuff is on Kyuss's article in the wiki).

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Originally posted by Markustay

I was getting very tired last night (actually, early this morning), which I suppose was a good thing, because I had to curtail some of what I wanted to convey (so YEAH, that over-long post would have gotten MUCH worse LOL).

While typing all that, I had this idea for demipowers (this may have been better to put in the 'cosmological theories' thread) - what if the 'rules' for Godly immigration don't apply to demipowers? What if the cut-off is lesser god? Thus, ANY God (I am now using that word interchangeably with 'Powers') can create a neo-mortal aspect (one of those Mulan Manifestations/Incarnations) and send it to a world. Anything more powerful than that would require Ao's permission (and Ao might have that power over ALL crystal Spheres, since it seems his powers DO extend beyond Toril, but only in very specific circumstances). After that, the thing is on its own, and if it fails to establish a faith befoe it runs short on power, it just fizzles away (and the god who sent it {semi}permanently loses that level of DvR (not really, it heals, but slowly, like ability score damage on a human - I'm thinking something like a century, just so that there is a GOOD reason why gods do not do this lightly).

So why add that in? Because it would help explain A LOT. All these incursions by these lowly, wanna-be-gods, and yet actual, uber-poweful ancient gods like the Pharonics can't get in. Demipowers (exarchs) are single-plane (usually, but not always, Prime Material), single-Avatar creatures - they actually fit the bill of very powerful mortals more than they do true gods. This allows them to 'bypass security' and worm their way in. This is why archfiends (and even lesser fiends) can start cults on worlds, but guys like Asmodeus or Orcus have to actually get permission, or force their way in using other methods (like absorbing/subduing another god that already has said permission).

LOL - I just had a picture of Asmodeus showing up in The Fugue, and trying to enter Toril, and Ao stepping in front of him and saying, "You shall not pass!" And then Asmodeus says, "I identify as Azuth now".

"Oh... CRAP", says Ao, stepping aside.

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Originally posted by LordofBones

Undeath is not a popular portfolio over lesser god level.

Most powers of undeath don't actually gain anything from worship. Mellifleur gains power for every would-be lich that embraces undeath, Kanchelsis is an equal of Lolth without having any priests. Undead probably don't view the gods of their respective kinds as gods so much as the greatest or most exemplary of their kinds. Faerun is unique in that gods are forced to have worshipers proportionate to their ranks, but I'm sure that the 'weight' of their portfolio also carries metaphysical influence in how powerful they are. In the case of liches, Mellifleur and Velsharoon openly encourage delving deep into magic (necromancy in particular) and have realms that contained untold secrets of the arcane, things dear to every lich's withered heart. Mellifleur (and probably Velsharoon) is known to personally appear and guide liches and would-be liches, so to a lich in Faerun, a token prayer to Velsharoon when researching a new spell wouldn't hurt.

Myrkul was god of the dead and his priests were few, but everyone knew him and everyone came to him. Every petty crime answered by disproportionate laws, every small act of tyranny, every burst of fear, empowers Bane in some way. Likewise, every wizard or cleric or druid that casts a necromancy spell, every mage that pursues lichdom, the act of creating an undead creature and creating new undead creatures all empower Velsharoon in some way.

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Originally posted by Fellfire

What is all this talk of Kanchelsis and Mellifleur? In the 2e Monster Mythology are they not one and the same? Is there some 5e lore I am unaware of? And Kyuss in Chult/Maztica? More 5e?

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Originally posted by Markustay

Is he though?

Kyuss is like 'the god born dead' to me. The original procedure/ritual that was supposed to turn him into a full god went awry (from what I understand, Mellifleur stole 'the juice') he's basically a still-born god, similar to that Atropal guy. So not quite mortal, but also, not quite a god. something stuck in-between. He is constantly still trying for full godhood, hence his schemes popping-up every now and then on different worlds.

If you make his Divine Realm actually be a Domain of Dread, its the perfect setup. He can even have his own island. In fact, make it inside the body of a giant, dead 'god' (a kraken-like creature of enormous proportions) - his digs will literally be a rotting corpse. And as I said, the Dark powers may have snatched him, and for once, things just didn't go their way - he still had a teensy-tiny bit of 'divinity', and that was enough to make him able to be able to make contact with the outside world (if not escape himself - he can send avatar-like manifestations through sometimes, and that's what PCs would encounter, but the 'real' kyuss will always still be trapped (so long as his planned are thwarted, that is).

Mistworms - odd , slimy little creatures that can literally bore through ANYTHING, including planer barriers, and even magical wards and fields, given enough time. Even the powerful 'veil' the Dark Powers have in place - impenetrable even by Gods* - can be gotten through by the mistworms. They exude a weird, anti-magical form of 'decay' that will even erode these powerful forces; not in their entirety, but just enough for the worms to slip trough. Kyuss can use these to make contact with his disciples - he implants 'orders' in the worm, and then the worm finds the people it needs to (I did mention they can literally create 'wormholes', right?), and burrow into the ear of the target underling. Of course, most of those 'blessed' with the words of Kyuss eventually die from having the thing inside their heads, eating away at their brains, but its a small price to pay to help your god, eh?


*Just had an odd, random thought - what if the 'Dark Powers' are/were Imaskari? They're the only other group I know they were able to build 'Godwalls'. But then again, its not like they were the types to kidnap people and entire cultures from worlds... WAIT A SECOND..

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Originally posted by LordofBones

Ironically, that disqualifies most canon demigods. Almost every demipower in the Realms has a priesthood and grants spells.

That also puts Acererak and Kyuss as demigods, which is absolute nonsense. They were never divine, or had anything to do with the divine other than Kas's murderboner for Vecna.

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[*]The demigod is worshipped as part of a pantheon.
[*]The demigod is "worshipped" via a mystery cult, which emphasizes identifying with certain aspects of divinity, and seems to be connected to pantheon-worship.
[*]The worshipper supports the demigod, but actually reveres spirits as in animism.
[*]The worshipper supports the demigod, but actually reveres a force (e.g. entropy, life, knowledge) or a philosophy.

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Originally posted by LordofBones

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, thank you for that find.... so they're terming vestiges as "quasi-deities" now. Titans too.



In the 5e DMG it has this to say about demigods...

Quasi-deities have a divine origin, but they don't hear or answer prayers, grant spells to clerics, or control aspects of mortal life. They are still immensely powerful beings, and in theory they could ascend to godhood if they amassed enough worshipers. Quasi-deities fall into three subcategories: demigods, titans, and vestiges.

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Ironically, that disqualifies most canon demigods. Almost every demipower in the Realms has a priesthood and grants spells.

That also puts Acererak and Kyuss as demigods, which is absolute nonsense. They were never divine, or had anything to do with the divine other than Kas's murderboner for Vecna.

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Origins of Kyuss
After the collapse of the yuan-ti empire of
Mhairshaulk, the yuan-ti and their distant
cousins, the couatls, battled for control of
the Chultan peninsula. Around the time of
Netheril’s founding, the couatl population
declined precipitously, and they sought
another race to keep the western end of the
Chultan Peninsula free of yuan-ti influence.
Eventually the couatl settled on the human
tribes of a distant continent to the southwest
and preached to them the teachings of
Ubtao. Those tribes who accepted Ubtao’s
message (the most prominent of which were
the Eshowe, the Tabaxi, and the Thinguth)
followed the winged serpents in a great
pilgrimage across the seas to the Jungle of
Chult (Amedio Jungle) in –2,809 DR.
The tribes landed on the Wild Coast and
marched inland to the Peaks of Flame, where
the avatar of Ubtao welcomed them. After
all but a handful of the winged serpents
then withdrew from southwestern Faerûn,
the Father of Chult founded the great city of
Mezro (Sulm) in –2,637 dr and dwelt there
for a time among the Tabaxi, the greatest of
the tribes, while the other tribes scattered
throughout the jungles.
In the Year of Reverent Threnody (–653 dr),
a Tabaxi (Flan) named Kyuss and his followers
fled Mezro for the Chultengar, a dark region
on the eastern border of the Jungle of Chult.
There Kyuss founded the city of Kuluth-
Mar, based upon the worship of a six-armed
god of death named Jergal (Nerull).Afer his
followers found the plates that spoke of the
Age of Worms, Kyuss received the spellweaver
lich who gave him the gift of a single green
worm and built the Spire of Long Shadows.
Further details on the history of the
Chultan peninsula and the inhabitants of the
Chultengar are given in Serpent Kingdoms.

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In truth, Jergal is an alien god, brought
to the Realms millennia ago by a pod of
spellweavers who settled in the region now
known as the Chultengar, located in the
easternmost reaches of the of the Jungle of
Chult. It is believed that one of the earliest
Netherese archwizards studied necromancy
with the spellweavers of the Chultengar before
returning to Netheril, and that he founded the
church of Jergal upon his return.

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According to myth (detailed in full in
Faiths & Avatars), Jergal grew bored of his
role as Lord of the Dead and voluntarily
divided his portfolios among Bane, Bhaal,
and Myrkul. The truth is rather more sinister.
Jergal harbored great ambitions to bring all
the Realms under his rule, including all
the other gods and even Ao, the Overgod.
However, Ao’s strictures prevented Jergal
from growing beyond the status of a greater
god, meaning that he could never force all the
other gods to bow down before his throne.
Undeterred, the Lord of the End of
Everything hit upon a plan that would allow
him to evade Ao’s strictures. First, Jergal set in
motion a series of prophecies that would mark
the beginning of the Age of Worms, including
inscribing a process on a set of bronze disks
by which an ambitious mortal (Kyuss) could
ascend to godhood. Second, Jergal embedded
three compulsions in his mind: give away
his portfolios to three gods and profess to be
bored with his role, consume those three gods
after all three had been reborn, and consume
the ascended mortal who followed the
process noted above. Lastly, Jergal extracted
all knowledge of his plan from his own mind,
other than the latent compulsions, and placed
it within the first green worm. Over time,
Jergal’s extracted knowledge was thereby
split among all the worms created by Kyuss.
This last step allowed the Lord of the End of
Everything to avoid Ao’s oversight, as Jergal
himself was thereafter unaware of his own
plan and no other single creature knew the
whole plan as well.

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