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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Mar 2018 : 12:32:35
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Ironically, that disqualifies most canon demigods. Almost every demipower in the Realms has a priesthood and grants spells.
That also puts Acererak and Kyuss as demigods, which is absolute nonsense. They were never divine, or had anything to do with the divine other than Kas's murderboner for Vecna.
No, Acererak is a vestige. I wouldn't be surprised if Kyuss isn't the same. Perhaps the creation of the epic version of atropal is one of many means by which a vestige can try to escape their imprisonment and be "born again" into the world. Maybe they do this somehow by trying to "convert" the "godstone" body of a dead god or something by feeding it enough power to create a tether.... which could feed back into the whole idea of Tenebrous and Orcus, because ultimately Orcus' godstone body was used to "bring him back". For all we know, its not TRULY Orcus in the demon lord's body any longer... or perhaps not SOLELY Orcus (it could be Orcus with a rider in his mind vying for control). Given some of the things Orcus was doing in 4e, that might make some sense.... as maybe some of the ties to the place where vestiges go has something to do with the abyss and its creation. After all, we do have this concept of "Hidden Layers" of the Abyss, and we know there's layers of the abyss with connections to shattered night.
Also, they specifically say demigod. Granted, what I'm going to say kind of goes against canon, but it also goes with more classical lore. If we say there is a difference between demigod and demipower, it works.... and maybe people "in the know" have been confused over such. By that I would give an example of Iyachtu Xvim... he is a demigod... the son of a god. However, he advanced to demipower at some point by achieving a higher divine rank and obtaining worshippers.
I will note here that 2nd edition Powers and Pantheons had adopted this new term (i.e. demipower instead of demigod), but then 3rd edition Faiths and Pantheons went back to calling things demigods (though there was indeed a divine rank 0 that couldn't grant powers for children of gods). Not sure what happened in 4th edition, etc... as far as terminology.... and of course, anything of this sort would be US making our own new paradigm.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2018 : 12:39:15
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| Hey Baltas, where's this conversion by Eric Boyd of Kyuss presenting him as a Tabaxi in Chultengar from? Just curious? Dungeon mag or something? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2018 : 12:55:21
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Yup, it's from Dungeon (specifically a web suplement). Here is the link:
https://www.paizo.com/dungeonissues/130/DA130_Supplement_H.pdf
I think in some ways, it's even superior to the original ie the Ebon Triad was made up originally from somewhat unrealated gods - Erythnul, Hextor, and Vecna - while Erythnul and Hextor are from the same pantheon (Oerdian), and have some connections, but Vecna was unrelated to both, and of a diferent origin (ie Flan). Here it's made of the Dead Tree - very closely related gods - and it has even more sense the splinter cult arose, in part to resurrect their gods (as Myrkul and Bhaal were still dead when the adventure took place. Well, with Myrkul it was a tad bit mre complicated...and Bane also could be still dead, if you believe Xvim just impersonates him, and was told in canon part of Bane'sworshippers believe that).
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Edited by - Baltas on 08 Mar 2018 13:07:58 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2018 : 14:20:34
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Thank you. I have so many dungeon magazines that I never even unwrapped. I looked at the wells of darkness because of people talking about the vestiges, but the rest I never looked into the path.
Hmmm, so the ties of Jergal to spellweavers CAN be said to be "almost canon" to a degree... I say almost only because these are optional rules for the adventure path. I like that. I was going to tie spellweavers to the "land of the insect men" in Anchorome, so also having someone specifically having them in the realms... and in an area of the realms which has ties to Maztica.... that's kind of useful.
Hmmm, and if Jergal's goal was to supplant Ao, then perhaps many suppositions I've said like Mask and Leira working against Cyric.... the escalation of Kelemvor... etc... may all have been last second "workings" by Ao to stop Jergal. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 08 Mar 2018 14:33:06 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2018 : 15:45:07
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Well, there may be more to that...as George Krashos on Ed's site (the Realms Secretariat/The Ed Greenwood Group), in another semi-official lore also tied Jergal to spellweavers, although that account is slightly different:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160831114556/http://realmssecretariat.com/jergal/
I think writers in general hinted for years the connection of Jergal to Spellweavers, so it may even go beyond "almost canon", if still not exactly 100% (if I make sense here).
With Ao taking subtle/indirect countermeassures against Jergal, it's a great idea, as technically, Jergal isn't breaking Ao's rules, due working via Kyuss, and not te proper Jergal even not knowing about it. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2018 : 19:04:40
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Ironically, that disqualifies most canon demigods. Almost every demipower in the Realms has a priesthood and grants spells.
That also puts Acererak and Kyuss as demigods, which is absolute nonsense. They were never divine, or had anything to do with the divine other than Kas's murderboner for Vecna.
No, Acererak is a vestige. I wouldn't be surprised if Kyuss isn't the same. Perhaps the creation of the epic version of atropal is one of many means by which a vestige can try to escape their imprisonment and be "born again" into the world. Maybe they do this somehow by trying to "convert" the "godstone" body of a dead god or something by feeding it enough power to create a tether.... which could feed back into the whole idea of Tenebrous and Orcus, because ultimately Orcus' godstone body was used to "bring him back". For all we know, its not TRULY Orcus in the demon lord's body any longer... or perhaps not SOLELY Orcus (it could be Orcus with a rider in his mind vying for control). Given some of the things Orcus was doing in 4e, that might make some sense.... as maybe some of the ties to the place where vestiges go has something to do with the abyss and its creation. After all, we do have this concept of "Hidden Layers" of the Abyss, and we know there's layers of the abyss with connections to shattered night.
Also, they specifically say demigod. Granted, what I'm going to say kind of goes against canon, but it also goes with more classical lore. If we say there is a difference between demigod and demipower, it works.... and maybe people "in the know" have been confused over such. By that I would give an example of Iyachtu Xvim... he is a demigod... the son of a god. However, he advanced to demipower at some point by achieving a higher divine rank and obtaining worshippers.
I will note here that 2nd edition Powers and Pantheons had adopted this new term (i.e. demipower instead of demigod), but then 3rd edition Faiths and Pantheons went back to calling things demigods (though there was indeed a divine rank 0 that couldn't grant powers for children of gods). Not sure what happened in 4th edition, etc... as far as terminology.... and of course, anything of this sort would be US making our own new paradigm.
First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored. Think of them as epic-level 'evangelists' - they support a deity and help it earn 'worship juice' from the masses, by putting a 'more personal touch' unto aspects of the religion (for example, Ilmater calls his 'Saints'). This profits both the aspiring god and the actual god; think of it like being among the top-ranking salesperson for a big company, with 'commision'. However, its really always been the god who's been granting the spells, NOT the demigod. And BTW, I say the same thing about primordials (to fix the awkwardness between 3e and 4e) - that primordials and Deities get together and create a faith, and then they 'split the profits'. Unfortunately, I don't think that bit ever caught on. I don't know why - I thought it was a fairly simple solution to a major lore snafu. Anyhow, sometimes the canon supported this - that it was the 'higher ups' that were actually granting the spells, but at other times it was a bit murkier. Still, it makes the most sense, in any edition.
There were some rules spread among the editions about cults, and worshipping "gods you can't reach" (SJ, RL), wherein I think you could get up to level 3 spells without a real God, simply because the power was being generated by your own faith. This also applies nicely across the board, since most 'cultists' and followers of demipowers wouldn't be all that high a level, and thus, the spell-lev.3 level-cap rarely becomes problematical (at which point a real Power has to step in). So its almost like the Demigods are running 'farm teams' for the main religion - most of the really powerful 'players' will move on up to 'the Majors' if they get too high a level.
As for DvR '0' - I always loved that concept, and in my homebrew material I say you hit that automatically at level 25 (it can be gotten earlier through various means, including divine intervention and just plain old popularity). This means you are 'on the cusp' of Godhood. You've managed to generate 'that spark', but you now have to work at it if you want to 'fan the flames' and attain true godhood, eventually. The children of gods automatically get this 'spark', so level/popularity (or notoriety) has nothing to do with it in that case, but those things can further your 'ascensin' faster than is possible for 'regular mortals'.
I would - and this is PURE houserules - give people an age extension for each level past 20. This has to do with how magic works, especially in the Realms ("magic = 'Life'), and even non-magic users would benefit because you've generated a personal well of power within you, so you are starting to achieve 'immortal' (DvR '0') status. Lets say something like a +10% extension on your lifespan per level over 19. Something along those lines. This is more based on fantasy literature (modern AND folklore) - uber-powerful types (HEROES & Main Villains) always seem to live longer than everyone else.
ESPECIALLY in the Realms.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Mar 2018 19:08:01 |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2018 : 04:51:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored.
Some demipowers are formerly lesser/intermediate/greater powers who've lost status, which basically negates all demipowers having to be sponsored. For those who transit instantly from mortal to demipower status, I can see it, but since weaker powers can grant spells and thus gain and expand a priesthood, they should be able to transition up the ranks to demipower and higher status just by increasing their following.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There were some rules spread among the editions about cults, and worshipping "gods you can't reach" (SJ, RL), wherein I think you could get up to level 3 spells without a real God, simply because the power was being generated by your own faith. This also applies nicely across the board, since most 'cultists' and followers of demipowers wouldn't be all that high a level, and thus, the spell-lev.3 level-cap rarely becomes problematical (at which point a real Power has to step in).
2nd Level is the limit. It is covered in the 1st edition PHB, DMG, and Legends & Lore/Deities & Demigods:
"As is explained in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE, 1st and 2nd level spells are gained through the cleric's knowledge and faith. All other spells are gained through prayer. Third. fourth and fifth level spells are granted by the supernatural servants or minions of the cleric’s deity. These servants range up to demigod level. Clerics whose patrons are demigods (and not lesser or greater gods) will receive their 3rd through 5th level spells directly from their deity. A demigod cannot grant spells above 5th level, so a cleric of a demigod could never receive 6th or 7th level spells.
Sixth and seventh level spells are granted to clerics directly from their deities. Only the greater gods may grant 7th level spells."
This text is what all 2nd edition spell access in Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and situations where deities are imprisoned is based on.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
Edited by - AuldDragon on 09 Mar 2018 04:52:25 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2018 : 16:24:45
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored.
Some demipowers are formerly lesser/intermediate/greater powers who've lost status, which basically negates all demipowers having to be sponsored. For those who transit instantly from mortal to demipower status, I can see it, but since weaker powers can grant spells and thus gain and expand a priesthood, they should be able to transition up the ranks to demipower and higher status just by increasing their following.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There were some rules spread among the editions about cults, and worshipping "gods you can't reach" (SJ, RL), wherein I think you could get up to level 3 spells without a real God, simply because the power was being generated by your own faith. This also applies nicely across the board, since most 'cultists' and followers of demipowers wouldn't be all that high a level, and thus, the spell-lev.3 level-cap rarely becomes problematical (at which point a real Power has to step in).
2nd Level is the limit. It is covered in the 1st edition PHB, DMG, and Legends & Lore/Deities & Demigods:
"As is explained in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE, 1st and 2nd level spells are gained through the cleric's knowledge and faith. All other spells are gained through prayer. Third. fourth and fifth level spells are granted by the supernatural servants or minions of the cleric’s deity. These servants range up to demigod level. Clerics whose patrons are demigods (and not lesser or greater gods) will receive their 3rd through 5th level spells directly from their deity. A demigod cannot grant spells above 5th level, so a cleric of a demigod could never receive 6th or 7th level spells.
Sixth and seventh level spells are granted to clerics directly from their deities. Only the greater gods may grant 7th level spells."
This text is what all 2nd edition spell access in Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and situations where deities are imprisoned is based on.
Jeff
Wow, I had forgotten all that about demigods only being able to grant up to 5th level. That actually is something that I didn't like, because from a metagaming perspective it kind of forced players to steer away from these demigods. I totally get the idea, and it makes sense, but I wouldn't favor it as a rule at my table.
That being said, I like the "flavor" of that concept. What would be a better way to do this nowadays without discouraging players from using these deities? For instance, if there WAS some kind of hindrance, it encourages priests of said deity to try and create a following for their god, which is great for roleplaying. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
89 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2018 : 22:20:28
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored.
Some demipowers are formerly lesser/intermediate/greater powers who've lost status, which basically negates all demipowers having to be sponsored. For those who transit instantly from mortal to demipower status, I can see it, but since weaker powers can grant spells and thus gain and expand a priesthood, they should be able to transition up the ranks to demipower and higher status just by increasing their following.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There were some rules spread among the editions about cults, and worshipping "gods you can't reach" (SJ, RL), wherein I think you could get up to level 3 spells without a real God, simply because the power was being generated by your own faith. This also applies nicely across the board, since most 'cultists' and followers of demipowers wouldn't be all that high a level, and thus, the spell-lev.3 level-cap rarely becomes problematical (at which point a real Power has to step in).
2nd Level is the limit. It is covered in the 1st edition PHB, DMG, and Legends & Lore/Deities & Demigods:
"As is explained in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE, 1st and 2nd level spells are gained through the cleric's knowledge and faith. All other spells are gained through prayer. Third. fourth and fifth level spells are granted by the supernatural servants or minions of the cleric’s deity. These servants range up to demigod level. Clerics whose patrons are demigods (and not lesser or greater gods) will receive their 3rd through 5th level spells directly from their deity. A demigod cannot grant spells above 5th level, so a cleric of a demigod could never receive 6th or 7th level spells.
Sixth and seventh level spells are granted to clerics directly from their deities. Only the greater gods may grant 7th level spells."
This text is what all 2nd edition spell access in Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and situations where deities are imprisoned is based on.
Jeff
Wow, I had forgotten all that about demigods only being able to grant up to 5th level. That actually is something that I didn't like, because from a metagaming perspective it kind of forced players to steer away from these demigods. I totally get the idea, and it makes sense, but I wouldn't favor it as a rule at my table.
That being said, I like the "flavor" of that concept. What would be a better way to do this nowadays without discouraging players from using these deities? For instance, if there WAS some kind of hindrance, it encourages priests of said deity to try and create a following for their god, which is great for roleplaying.
If I remember correctly, those details were mostly left out of the Forgotten Realms' Faith and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities books. Which indicates that it's probably not the same for the Forgotten Realms. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2018 : 23:30:36
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I actually REALLY like all that. It doesn't ring a bell, so somehow I missed those rules (probably sections I 'skipped over' way back when). This ties into what I said about 'farm teams' - if you want to 'play for the majors', you are going to have to get a different god (or your lowered-powered god needs to make some deals of his own... which I am sure many do).
Also, I have house-rules about ways of boosting your divine casting level beyond the normal: Being inside a holy site (which includes 'consecrated ground'), the size of the temple you are in, if any (which directly reflects the local 'worshiper base'), proximity to Holy Relics (+1 same city, +2 same building, +3 "holding it in your hand"), and any other mitigating factors (like just having killed a major enemy of your god, etc).
So there are work-arounds, Sleyvas, which could really add a lot of flavor to your games. Suppose one of your players is a follower of Saint Dionysius. He gets up to the 5th casting level and can't go any further, but he gets a 'vision' from his deity - The Flagon of Dionysius. Its a holy artifact (decanter of endless wine), and each time you imbibe from it you get a level boost (up to three levels - like what I said above about holding a holy relic, except now I am being God-specific). You can have a lot of fun with this. Character gets drunk by accident, the flagon gets stolen by a local urchin, etc.
Regardless, these rules would now have to be tweaked, because I think you can get higher-lev spells one (char) level earlier. I would definitely bounce it up to level 3 nowadays. Maybe keep level 2 for complete non-deities (so it really IS 'all up to you') or even non-entities, but things that have some power - like an arch-anything - can get you up to level 3. Didn't there used to be some sort of numbered 'fiendish hierarchy'? We could have had some fun with that and 'demon cults'. Like 1/2 your fiend-level of your patron for spell level max. I suppose CR might work - maybe 1/4 CR rounded down?
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored.
Some demipowers are formerly lesser/intermediate/greater powers who've lost status, which basically negates all demipowers having to be sponsored. For those who transit instantly from mortal to demipower status, I can see it, but since weaker powers can grant spells and thus gain and expand a priesthood, they should be able to transition up the ranks to demipower and higher status just by increasing their following.
I am in a constant battle with myself to keep my posts short (a LOSING battle, as most of you can attest LOL), and then I sometimes think "I should have explained better", like with this.
I was talking only in regards to granting spells, not 'becoming one'. Anyone can become a demipower, sometimes even by accident (a revered 'Hero' is beloved by an entire empire, for example). In fact, my won't-ever-get-published-setting (+ trilogy of novels) has something like this as it's major plot point.
So 'anyone can be a god', but if the demigod wants his followers to get access to higher level spells, then he/she/it needs 'sponsorship'. I was going meta-game with this.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Mar 2018 23:34:26 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2018 : 04:17:30
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It just seems really unfair to demipowers. The ones who need worship are the ones who can't actually bestow power on their priests.
Things become a bit more equal when all deities grant all spell levels. Clerics of greater powers have a far greater support network and resources to draw from, while clerics of demipowers trade away resources in exchange for a more personal connection to their patron, who has more invested in them. A cleric of, say, Cyric isn't really going to get anything more than an odd omen or two, but a cleric of Savras has probably met his god and there's a chance of divine intervention if something goes wrong. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2018 : 15:06:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I actually REALLY like all that. It doesn't ring a bell, so somehow I missed those rules (probably sections I 'skipped over' way back when). This ties into what I said about 'farm teams' - if you want to 'play for the majors', you are going to have to get a different god (or your lowered-powered god needs to make some deals of his own... which I am sure many do).
Also, I have house-rules about ways of boosting your divine casting level beyond the normal: Being inside a holy site (which includes 'consecrated ground'), the size of the temple you are in, if any (which directly reflects the local 'worshiper base'), proximity to Holy Relics (+1 same city, +2 same building, +3 "holding it in your hand"), and any other mitigating factors (like just having killed a major enemy of your god, etc).
So there are work-arounds, Sleyvas, which could really add a lot of flavor to your games. Suppose one of your players is a follower of Saint Dionysius. He gets up to the 5th casting level and can't go any further, but he gets a 'vision' from his deity - The Flagon of Dionysius. Its a holy artifact (decanter of endless wine), and each time you imbibe from it you get a level boost (up to three levels - like what I said above about holding a holy relic, except now I am being God-specific). You can have a lot of fun with this. Character gets drunk by accident, the flagon gets stolen by a local urchin, etc.
Regardless, these rules would now have to be tweaked, because I think you can get higher-lev spells one (char) level earlier. I would definitely bounce it up to level 3 nowadays. Maybe keep level 2 for complete non-deities (so it really IS 'all up to you') or even non-entities, but things that have some power - like an arch-anything - can get you up to level 3. Didn't there used to be some sort of numbered 'fiendish hierarchy'? We could have had some fun with that and 'demon cults'. Like 1/2 your fiend-level of your patron for spell level max. I suppose CR might work - maybe 1/4 CR rounded down?
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored.
Some demipowers are formerly lesser/intermediate/greater powers who've lost status, which basically negates all demipowers having to be sponsored. For those who transit instantly from mortal to demipower status, I can see it, but since weaker powers can grant spells and thus gain and expand a priesthood, they should be able to transition up the ranks to demipower and higher status just by increasing their following.
I am in a constant battle with myself to keep my posts short (a LOSING battle, as most of you can attest LOL), and then I sometimes think "I should have explained better", like with this.
I was talking only in regards to granting spells, not 'becoming one'. Anyone can become a demipower, sometimes even by accident (a revered 'Hero' is beloved by an entire empire, for example). In fact, my won't-ever-get-published-setting (+ trilogy of novels) has something like this as it's major plot point.
So 'anyone can be a god', but if the demigod wants his followers to get access to higher level spells, then he/she/it needs 'sponsorship'. I was going meta-game with this.
Yeah, the problem I have here is the unbalanced effect. Essentially, for most players, this is just going to force them to choose major gods. However, what if there were something to making having a demipower as your patron a nice thing. Maybe you get more turn undead attempts because your deity is more "focused" on you. Maybe you get some additional type of bonus towards a skill or something based upon the ... what's it called in 5e? Domain?... that you chose to follow if you deity is say a demipower or a lesser power. Or maybe something tailored to each demipower (for instance, maybe a cleric of Karsus can add two wizard spells from the school of transmutation to his spell list at each each spell level that he advances, and gains an extra 2 spells prepared in total). Essentially, you are such a special thing to your deity that he wants to make sure you have as much of a benefit as he can give you.... unlike the priests of those greater gods who are treated as just another cog in the wheel by their deities.
As far as how to make the disadvantage work.... Maybe they can get higher level spells (which now the disparity wouldn't be 6th and 7th levels, it would be 8th and 9th level spells), but its from a much contracted list. Or maybe you get the spell slots, but have to fill them with lower level spells. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2018 : 15:08:31
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
It just seems really unfair to demipowers. The ones who need worship are the ones who can't actually bestow power on their priests.
Things become a bit more equal when all deities grant all spell levels. Clerics of greater powers have a far greater support network and resources to draw from, while clerics of demipowers trade away resources in exchange for a more personal connection to their patron, who has more invested in them. A cleric of, say, Cyric isn't really going to get anything more than an odd omen or two, but a cleric of Savras has probably met his god and there's a chance of divine intervention if something goes wrong.
Exactly Lord of Bones. The personal touch is what I'm going for. What do you think of the idea I just posted above?
In fact, taking your priest of Savras as an example.... maybe Savras recognizes that his priests will be hindered in spellcasting... so he encourages multi-classing in 5e. For instance, I had written up these two feats from my complete red book of spell strategy.
Mage-Priest of the Magic Deities
Prerequisite: requires either the knowledge domain or the arcana domain (Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide pg 125) . The character must be at least 8th level and multiclassed in the cleric class and either the bard, sorcerer, or wizard class.
You serve a deity whose focus in on some aspect of magic (Mystra, Azuth, Savras, Leira, Velsharoon, Corellon, etc.. )or knowledge (Deneir, Oghma, Milil, Gond, etc...), and you seek to improve your spellcasting in both fields. As a result, you are able to prepare higher level spells
The character's understanding of multiple arcana allows them to improve their ability to prepare higher level spells. The exact mechanics of this depend on how many class levels of difference separate their cleric and their bard, sorcerer, or wizard levels (whichever of the three is the lowest if the character has levels in more than one of these, or chosen by the character if they are equal). If four or more levels separates the two classes, then the lesser of the two classes is treated as though it were four levels higher in relation to its “spells known or prepared” (this does not affect the number of spell slots available). If three levels separate the two, then three levels are added to the lesser and one to the greater. If two levels or less separate the two classes, then both classes are treated as though they were two levels higher in relation to its “spells known or prepared” . This number changes as the character levels and changes this difference between his cleric and other arcane classes. Thus, a cleric 4/wizard 4 would prepare spells as a 6th lvl cleric and as a 6th lvl wizard, but if he went on to become a cleric 4/wizard 7 then it would be preparing spells as a 7th lvl cleric and an 8th lvl wizard, and cleric 4/wizard 8 would be preparing spells as an 8th lvl cleric and an 8th lvl wizard. Similarly, a cleric 2/wizard 10 would be preparing spells as a 6th lvl cleric and a 10th lvl wizard, but such a character would be losing his 4th lvl clerical ability increase/feat.
In addition, the character learns the thaumaturgy cantrip and has the below spells prepared and/or known in each class that can prepare spells of that level, even if that spell isn't normally on their spell list.
1st level – Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic
2nd level – arcane lock
3rd level – counterspell
Multiple spellcaster classes
Prerequisite – the character must have at least two levels in two classes providing the Spellcasting feature or Pact Magic feature. The spellcasting classes involved must be ones that provide full spellcasting levels for adding up available spell slots when multi-classing (i.e. Bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard, but not paladin, ranger, eldritch knight or Arcane Trickster). The character must have a 3rd level spell slot and be at least a 6th lvl character.
Due to his study of multiple spellcasting traditions, the character has learned to prepare higher level spells than the number of levels he has in his current spellcasting classes would allow.
When this feat is taken, the character must choose two classes which allow her to qualify for this feat that the character possesses. For both of his classes, the character is treated as though two levels higher in regards to “spells prepared or known” for spellcasters. If one of the classes is a pact magic class (i.e. warlock), the character is treated as two pact magic class (i.e. warlock) levels higher in regards of the slot level, but in addition the character's “spell slots per level” on the Multiclass Spellcaster table are increased by two (such that a 6th level wizard / 6th level warlock would have the spell slots of an 8th level multi-class spellcaster). If the character reaches 16th level and more than 10 levels separates his two spellcasting classes, the bonus levels in his lesser class increases from two to four. If the character reaches 20th level and more than 12 levels separates his two spellcasting classes, the bonus levels in his lesser class increases from four to six.
It should be noted that this feat is intended to be combined with similar feats, such as “Mystic Hierophant”, “Theurgist Adept” , “Mage-Priest of the Magic Deities”, “Fochluchan Lyrist”, “Song Mage”, and “Nature Priest”. It is the only feat meant to be able to combine with such feats.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 10 Mar 2018 15:19:05 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2018 : 03:13:02
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I actually REALLY like all that. It doesn't ring a bell, so somehow I missed those rules (probably sections I 'skipped over' way back when). This ties into what I said about 'farm teams' - if you want to 'play for the majors', you are going to have to get a different god (or your lowered-powered god needs to make some deals of his own... which I am sure many do).
Also, I have house-rules about ways of boosting your divine casting level beyond the normal: Being inside a holy site (which includes 'consecrated ground'), the size of the temple you are in, if any (which directly reflects the local 'worshiper base'), proximity to Holy Relics (+1 same city, +2 same building, +3 "holding it in your hand"), and any other mitigating factors (like just having killed a major enemy of your god, etc).
So there are work-arounds, Sleyvas, which could really add a lot of flavor to your games. Suppose one of your players is a follower of Saint Dionysius. He gets up to the 5th casting level and can't go any further, but he gets a 'vision' from his deity - The Flagon of Dionysius. Its a holy artifact (decanter of endless wine), and each time you imbibe from it you get a level boost (up to three levels - like what I said above about holding a holy relic, except now I am being God-specific). You can have a lot of fun with this. Character gets drunk by accident, the flagon gets stolen by a local urchin, etc.
Regardless, these rules would now have to be tweaked, because I think you can get higher-lev spells one (char) level earlier. I would definitely bounce it up to level 3 nowadays. Maybe keep level 2 for complete non-deities (so it really IS 'all up to you') or even non-entities, but things that have some power - like an arch-anything - can get you up to level 3. Didn't there used to be some sort of numbered 'fiendish hierarchy'? We could have had some fun with that and 'demon cults'. Like 1/2 your fiend-level of your patron for spell level max. I suppose CR might work - maybe 1/4 CR rounded down?
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored.
Some demipowers are formerly lesser/intermediate/greater powers who've lost status, which basically negates all demipowers having to be sponsored. For those who transit instantly from mortal to demipower status, I can see it, but since weaker powers can grant spells and thus gain and expand a priesthood, they should be able to transition up the ranks to demipower and higher status just by increasing their following.
I am in a constant battle with myself to keep my posts short (a LOSING battle, as most of you can attest LOL), and then I sometimes think "I should have explained better", like with this.
I was talking only in regards to granting spells, not 'becoming one'. Anyone can become a demipower, sometimes even by accident (a revered 'Hero' is beloved by an entire empire, for example). In fact, my won't-ever-get-published-setting (+ trilogy of novels) has something like this as it's major plot point.
So 'anyone can be a god', but if the demigod wants his followers to get access to higher level spells, then he/she/it needs 'sponsorship'. I was going meta-game with this.
Yeah, the problem I have here is the unbalanced effect. Essentially, for most players, this is just going to force them to choose major gods. However, what if there were something to making having a demipower as your patron a nice thing. Maybe you get more turn undead attempts because your deity is more "focused" on you. Maybe you get some additional type of bonus towards a skill or something based upon the ... what's it called in 5e? Domain?... that you chose to follow if you deity is say a demipower or a lesser power. Or maybe something tailored to each demipower (for instance, maybe a cleric of Karsus can add two wizard spells from the school of transmutation to his spell list at each each spell level that he advances, and gains an extra 2 spells prepared in total). Essentially, you are such a special thing to your deity that he wants to make sure you have as much of a benefit as he can give you.... unlike the priests of those greater gods who are treated as just another cog in the wheel by their deities.
As far as how to make the disadvantage work.... Maybe they can get higher level spells (which now the disparity wouldn't be 6th and 7th levels, it would be 8th and 9th level spells), but its from a much contracted list. Or maybe you get the spell slots, but have to fill them with lower level spells.
Depends on the god.
Clerics (and spellcaster worshippers) of demipowers may have an expanded spell list, or DC/caster level bonuses, or channel energy/turn undead has greater effect.
Let's take Velsharoon: maybe spellcasters in his service gain access to expanded spell lists, with wizards finding clerical necromancy spells available to them (and vice versa). Necromancers and necrophants, in particular, may find that undead are friendlier to them, or that the rituals of lichdom become clearer and easier to navigate. Maybe a favored cleric or wizard is rescued from adventurers by a flight of wraiths escorting him to safety.
You can actually repurpose many prestige class features from 3.5e and Pathfinder as 'boons' demipowers grant. Maybe warrior-priests in Velsharoon's service are bestowed the lich touch ability from the agent of the grave. Maybe a sufficiently devoted Savrasian cleric wakes up one morning to find that he's gained the Eldritch Eye feat for free. Maybe a sufficiently devoted and powerful wizard is going over his library one morning and finds a curious book that definitely wasn't there before, like The Crystalline Tome of the All-Seeing One, or The Black Pages of Velsharoon, wherein are spells developed by those gods when they were mortals. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2018 : 06:22:46
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Honestly, I've never had an issue with the spell level limit for demipowers and lesser powers (who are limited to granting 6th level spells). The *overwhelming* majority of worshipers of any deity are not priests, and likely to have little actual experience with priestly magic, and the overwhelming majority of priests will never get high enough level to gain access to 6th or 7th level spells.
Basically, all it really affects are *players* (not even PCs, since the character wouldn't make a choice on deity to worship based on that sort of thing). Even then, I've never actually had a campaign get that high level anyway (I've been streaming a Spelljammer campaign for a year now, and the party's priest is still only 4th level). A DM could always make a one-off work-around for a player, while preserving the limitation in general, or it could be a challenge that a player wants to impose on themselves. There *should* be greater limitations on less-powerful deities, IMO; I know that's somewhat anathema in modern D&D iterations, though.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2018 : 05:45:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The "Elder Evils" sourcebook also has ideas in how to incorporate Kyuss in various settings, including the Realms.
And logically, that's how I would treat him in my D&D campaign. Like the other Elder Evil beings, I'd treat Kyuss as a distant outsider deity (similar to those from the Far Realms) who is not from the Faerunian or even Toril pantheons. Such godlike beings would not have proper "churches" or established religion in Faerun, but occasionally some crazy cultist will propitiate them.
Kyuss is actually portrayed in the cover art of Elder Evils, if I recall.
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Topic |
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How does Kyuss fit into the Realms?
