| Author |
 Topic  |
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 08:17:30
|
Just cleaning through some of my old saved archives, I found this small tidbit of information regarding the upcoming Book of Undead -
quote:
As many have theorized, Libris Mortis is indeed the undead's answer to the Draconomicon.
It was written by Bruce Cordell and me. IIRC we split it basically 50-50--I focused a bit more on character-building (feats, PrCs, monster classes, etc.), sample undead, and "running undead" material, while Bruce tangled with monster design and general undead flavor material. (That's hardly exclusive--we dabbled in each others' sections quite a bit as well.) There's also a really cool new undead template (that is, a template to apply to undead) written by Matt Sernett originally destined for inclusion in MM3 that we just had to steal for Libris Mortis instead.
Like Draconomicon, it's a core D&D sourcebook that features new game mechanics, exploration of existing rules, and discussion of undead and their place in a D&D game. It includes plenty of material both for DMs and for players, from tips on how to make undead encounters extra-scary to information on including undead characters in the party.
At 192 pages, it's smaller than Draconomicon, but Draco was a special case--originally envisioned as a super-deluxe book, Draco shrunk slightly in design but the topic still merited a super-sized tome. Libris Mortis fits our more standard product size (192 to 224 pages). Don't worry--it's still chock full of material.
I don't have any insight on the naming process that produced Libris Mortis. I don't know Latin and wasn't involved in selecting that name. Regardless, I think what's in the book is far more important that what name is attached to it.
If you like the way that Draconomicon approached dragons in D&D, I think you'll appreciate Libris Mortis as well.
Andy Collins
Senior Designer
Wizards of the Coast Roleplaying R&D
I apologise for not posting it earlier...
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 09:42:44
|
Ahhh whats 32 pages. If its the same quality and crammed as Draconomicon then im more than happy.
I hope theres plenty coverage on the (many) different types of undead and the ecology (if you can call it that) in the same way they devoted a fair amount of pages over each type of dragon in the aforementioned product. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
|
 |
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 13:51:50
|
You're certainly right about that Rad.
Although, I'm also hoping that in addition to detailing the regular and more commonly used undead types, the less well-known, and less traditional undead creatures, also receive some extra treatment. Skeletons and ghouls are fine, but every so often, I like to see wights, ghasts, and even the occassional spectre being used in a game...
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 17:09:17
|
| I've never found undead even half as intersting as dragons. Thus, it's going to take a sizeable discount on this book to get me to purchase it. |
|
|
|
Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 19:08:46
|
Im quite the opposite, Sirius. Whilst I found Draconomicon to be a very fine piece of quality and a very interesting read, I will find Libris Mortis to be much more useful as im much more likely to feature undead in my campaign than I am dragons. Dragons are too epic and to be used very, very sparingly, IMHO.
On your point Sage, I agree. Im not a great fan of the standard stock of undead, skeletons, ghouls etc are too mainstream and are sniggered at by players because of that. Much nastier things are what is required   |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
|
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 04:44:32
|
Yes, and I find myself agreeing with your point about the Draconomicon Rad. Dragons are, and should always be a rare occurence in a campaign, while the undead are always going to be the kind of encounters that occur more frequently, at least with regards to Dragons.
Aside from all that though, the Libris Mortis will have the potential to be applied to many more settings than the Draconomicon ever will. I mean take the settings Dragonlance and Ravenloft for example. In most of my DL campaigns, I rarely make use of the material presented in the Book of Dragons, mainly because the DLCS supplies a lot of the dragon material a DM would need anyway (plus a little Krynnish flavor). Now, the Book of Dragons would hardly ever be used in a RL campaign, unless you wished (as a DM) to make use of Strahd's Dragon. Where as, the Book of Undead would have an enormous potential for appplication in a RL campaign, as well as a DL-based game. There's just so many more opportunities to use the undead in your campaign than there is for dragons.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 08:51:37
|
| Of course, I got the Draconomicon mainly because I'm so interested in dragons. I'm not interested in undead in anywhere near the same way, so I'm not likely to get it. If I were a DM, that would be different, but as it is, I'm just an inexperienced player. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 10:10:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Now, the Book of Dragons would hardly ever be used in a RL campaign, unless you wished (as a DM) to make use of Strahd's Dragon. Where as, the Book of Undead would have an enormous potential for appplication in a RL campaign, as well as a DL-based game. There's just so many more opportunities to use the undead in your campaign than there is for dragons.
I think youve hit the nail on the head, Sage Its probably my love of RL too that drew me more towards Libris Mortis  I think it will be more useful in my RL campaign than anywhere else. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
|
|
|
|
Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 10:54:53
|
Honestly, I'm just interested in seeing how well Libris Mortis covers a topic that has been done many times by many different companies. If the contents are as well-researched, comprehensive, and creative as those of the Draconomicon, it will be well worth the price.
As a DM, I agree with Rad and Sage, Libris Mortis should contain information that is useful for every-day gaming encounters as well as campaign-spanning BBEG's. Which may very well make it more useful than Draconomicon.
Sarta |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 00:19:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
Honestly, I'm just interested in seeing how well Libris Mortis covers a topic that has been done many times by many different companies. If the contents are as well-researched, comprehensive, and creative as those of the Draconomicon, it will be well worth the price.
An excellent point Sarta.
I've often refused to purchase any of the third party undead-based tomes (that doesn't sound quite right... ), mainly because of the lack of quality material in them. Even some of the more popular publishing companies that I'd normally seen produce some rather excellent material in the past (like GRR and Mongoose) have failed in this regard. At most, we just have page after page of revised and restructured undead-stats - nothing really original or creative (and little source information as well).
I hope this Book of Undead raises the standard (even if only a little) against which all others are judged...
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 01:40:52
|
| Take it you didn't like Mongoose Publishing's big Book of Undead? Is that the one Gary Gygax wrote or did he write the Book of Dragons for them? |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 01:52:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Take it you didn't like Mongoose Publishing's big Book of Undead? Is that the one Gary Gygax wrote or did he write the Book of Dragons for them?
He wrote both. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 11 Apr 2004 01:53:16 |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 02:50:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
He wrote both. :)
Well that explains why his name kept being associated with each product whenever I thought about them. Alas, right now in the D20 publisher vs. WOTC match, the first round goes to WOTC. Their book on dragons far exceeds the Mongoose publication. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 04:43:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Take it you didn't like Mongoose Publishing's big Book of Undead? Is that the one Gary Gygax wrote or did he write the Book of Dragons for them?
No I didn't Sirius. Although, the one thing that I can at least be happy about with this tome (because, you see, I have a copy), is that I did not pay any money to purchase it. It was an part of an amusing gift-ceremony that some of the gamers, here in Perth, like to practice. In this case, the Big Book of Undead was given to me by the Lady Kazandra...
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 05:21:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
No I didn't Sirius. Although, the one thing that I can at least be happy about with this tome (because, you see, I have a copy), is that I did not pay any money to purchase it. It was an part of an amusing gift-ceremony that some of the gamers, here in Perth, like to practice. In this case, the Big Book of Undead was given to me by the Lady Kazandra...
Very nice of her. I like that ceremony. Feel free to extend it to online gents you know from the States.  I don't blame Lady Kazandra for giving it to you as I'm sure she, along with myself here, expected the book to be rock solid. Instead...well, disappointment is what I recall the most. Fortunately, I did not purchase either Gygaz written book for Mongoose and have gone out of my way to avoid products with his name on them ever since. |
Edited by - SiriusBlack on 11 Apr 2004 05:22:14 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 05:46:27
|
Actually, the ceremony did include a transfer of gifts with at least four players from overseas. Two different game-products were sent to two gamers in the US (one from Seattle, and New York was the other), one to London, in the United Kingdom, and the other, to the village of Kurl, in India.
As for Gygax-named products, I had originally wanted to purchase his necromancer-based campaign setting, but I've never read a pleasant review about it since it's release over two years ago...
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 08:37:07
|
hmmm October
That should be around the same time my PCs start COSQ
Evil Banite laughter
"I see UNdead people"
My players in October |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 17:05:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Actually, the ceremony did include a transfer of gifts with at least four players from overseas. Two different game-products were sent to two gamers in the US (one from Seattle, and New York was the other), one to London, in the United Kingdom, and the other, to the village of Kurl, in India.
And it was pulled off without any trouble? Now that is beyond cool. Way to show overseas unity. Let any coalition top that!  |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
|
|
Elrond Half Elven
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
322 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2004 : 11:49:39
|
I wonder how much this book will draw on Past Undead Sourcebooks. The Books in the Van Richen Series are awesome. IMHO this is what the books should be like content wise. Just one small change that I would make would be confining all the DM material (i.e. rules) to a single pull out book. This means the books could be used as player handouts.
I'm looking forward to the Libris Mortis. Undead have always had a special place in my Heart and as Rad and Sage both say are used a lot more than Dragons and Demons in my Campaigns.
I'm hoping that the book will detail the long undetailed 'Death Knight', 'Heucuva', 'Juju Zombie', and 'Demi-Shadow'. I would enjoy reading on specifically how each one is created. I would also like to see variants of Undead Creatures placed in the book (Which reminds me I have a Oriental and Feral Variant of the Death knight kicking around here somewhere).
We have almost all the rules we need for these creatures already I'm looking forward to seeing some considerable 'fluff' on unusual undead creatures. (Hopefully I wont be disappointed).
The Undead creation section sounds great fun. Not when a resurrection doesn’t work you can create and Undead PC! Reminds me of the (Grand Requiem).
This certainly looks to be a great resource for this year! One that’s definitely in my purchase list!
Hanx
Elrond
|
Once upon a midnight dreary, while i pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore-
While i nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
-The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2004 : 13:14:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Elrond Half Elven
I wonder how much this book will draw on Past Undead Sourcebooks. The Books in the Van Richen Series are awesome. IMHO this is what the books should be like content wise. Just one small change that I would make would be confining all the DM material (i.e. rules) to a single pull out book. This means the books could be used as player handouts.
[...]
The Undead creation section sounds great fun. Not when a resurrection doesn’t work you can create and Undead PC! Reminds me of the (Grand Requiem).
Without a doubt, the 2e RL 'Van Richten's Guides' were some of the best tomes ever written that dealt with the undead, and other monstrous creatures. In fact, even the 3e Guide to the Walking Dead sets the standard higher (if that's even possible). They're all a truly great resource, for any campaign setting, in any edition...
If this new undead tome, Libris Mortis, even comes close to what the VR books are, I will be happy...or rather...laughing with joy...
And Elrond, as for your comments about the Grand Requiem, I'm sure that Azalin would indeed approve...
It is good to be the king...
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2004 : 13:33:53
|
Elrond
Death Knights are in Monster manual 2 and Juju Zombies are in Unapproachable east |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
|
|
|
Elrond Half Elven
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
322 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2004 : 14:24:11
|
Dargoth I was more interested in the 'fluff' associated with these Undead Beasts. Akin to the 'fluff' shown in the VRGs.
Hanx
Elrond |
Once upon a midnight dreary, while i pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore-
While i nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
-The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2004 : 14:40:17
|
quote:
Their book on dragons far exceeds the Mongoose publication.
Well, it's bigger, but I'm interested in how dragons are conceived by the creator of D&D for D&D-Greyhawk, not so much in how they are by Andy Collins, James Wyatt, and Skip Williams.
quote:
As for Gygax-named products, I had originally wanted to purchase his necromancer-based campaign setting, but I've never read a pleasant review about it since it's release over two years ago...
If you're talking about the d20 conversion of Necropolis, it has generally very favourable reviews at both rpg.net and enworld.org, both sites anti-Gygax-AD&D-biased. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2004 : 04:41:00
|
Thanks for those reviews Faraer. I guess that, in my haste to decide whether or not to purchase Gygax's Necropolis tome, these websites were unfortunately ovwerlooked...
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2004 : 09:27:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
If you're talking about the d20 conversion of Necropolis, it has generally very favourable reviews at both rpg.net and enworld.org, both sites anti-Gygax-AD&D-biased.
I should check those out. I never bothered with the conversion since I have two copies of it for Dangerous Journeys and figured I could always do a conversion if running it seemed interesting. I am a bit curious to see how much he may have changed it around. If they merely updated stat blocks, it isn't as interesting to me.
Edit: It would seem that few of the reviewers are familiar with the original run of the adventure and of those that are, only one seems to have read it... and he doesn't mention how much is new content. Too bad.
Sarta |
Edited by - Sarta on 13 Apr 2004 09:36:42 |
|
|
|
Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 16:26:55
|
What i'd really like to see in this upcoming book is lots of fluff (and maybe a little crunch too) about Necromancers as well as their creations. They have as much of a place in a book about the Undead as the Undead themselves IMO.
Some of my favourite recurring villains are wandering Necromancer types who turn up in town to raise most of the graveyard to add to their burgeoning army of the dead... it would be cool to have some D&D background material on some of this stuff. |
Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005 |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 17:08:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gerath Hoan
What i'd really like to see in this upcoming book is lots of fluff (and maybe a little crunch too) about Necromancers as well as their creations.
I'll be very curious to see the fluff to crunch ratio for this product. |
|
|
|
Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2004 : 01:59:51
|
Is no one else interested in seeing Necromancers get a bit more development in this book along with their creations?
I do think a book about the Undead should spend some time look at those magically proficient individuals who create the majority of their ranks. |
Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005 |
|
|
|
Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2004 : 03:37:53
|
Given the need for prc's in all new products, I seriously doubt that necromancers will be overlooked.
My prediction will be that arcane necromancers will get beefed up a bit. They have lagged behind divine necromancers in effectiveness and in the spirit of revisions, the balance of power will probably shift to favor the arcane.
Fortunately, the book is extra big and is hopefully intended to follow in the footsteps of Draconomicon and we will receive a lot of fluff in addition to the crunch.
I actually thought the Complete Book of Necromancers by Steve Kurtz for 2ed wasn't too bad when it comes to fluff. Hopefully, they will elaborate on this foundation.
Sarta |
|
|
|
Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2004 : 18:08:30
|
I'm not sure my opinion on the Libris Mortis. I loved Draconomicon, but as others have said - hat was because I'm a big fan of dragons and their flexibility. Undead arn't all that flexible, but have their fair share of interest. I will be counting on you guys to give me info on this book.
However Sarta, I must diagree about your prediction - you are right about divine spellcasters getting the better lot in 3.x (in 2e it was the other way around), and as most Necromantic spells dealing with undead are divine spells, or both divine and arcane spells, I think the boost will be equal - leaving divine spellcasters ahead. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Andy Collins on 'Libris Mortis'
