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Odin Highhammer
Acolyte
Sweden
24 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Feb 2017 : 19:54:08
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Hi guys, could one of you help me solve this one?
From a diverse amount of sources we know that Telamont was Lord Shadow, and we know that Lord Shadow was born in -645 DR.
We are also aware that Thultanthar was created in -1471 DR, and that Telamont was the guy who was High Lord Arcanist of it.
This means that I am currently missing a part of the puzzle.
Was Thultanthar raised by a different Arcanist, and Lord Shadow took over? Or was Lord Shadow an alibi and Telamont was actually born far earlier, around -1700 DR-ish?
I need to know for a friend 
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6405 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2017 : 20:20:52
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My best guess is that Telamont was NOT the one who raised it, but took it over later (which raises some interesting possibilities).
EDIT: (Dazzler responded before I hit 'post')
You may want to push it back to his grandfather, or something. Having kids at 800 years old is some tricky business. 
I wanted to connect Telemont to the raid of Thaeravel, which is back even another 1800 years before the enclave was created. Still doable, through 'buried family secrets' and all that. It could have been an ancestor of Telemont's, who took the seized tomes regarding Shadow Magic and kept them hidden from the rest of the Netherese, until some point in the future when the Enclave was raised and they could do teir research in private. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2017 20:28:22 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6405 Posts |
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Odin Highhammer
Acolyte
Sweden
24 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2017 : 20:49:22
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Interesting ideas.
I don't think having kids at 800 is much of a problem, with the amount of age restoration that is going on during Netheril, so father seems more appropriate.
As for dads assassination, Telamont was already studying in Eileanar before he became known, and he developed his theories during his time there.
I see the controversy being all tied on Eileanar, not reaching Shade until his "return", along with his crew from the Shadow Consortium.
I don't view this as being that strange, while Shade was his home, Eileanar was the place to be if you wanted to study magic. It's Academy of Mentalist Study had lectures from Karsus himself, why stay in a dusty old Shade school?
Based on Realms of Shadow (Too Long in the Dark) I get the feeling that Telamont was "converting" Shade to run on a Shadow Weave Mythallar, so it seems like something his family was not able to do before him.
This makes me wonder what happened to Dad Tanthul. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2017 : 21:04:51
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
For those that love the god nonsense
Those that don't have an issue with the deities of the Realms may not love seeing every other post of yours refer to them as nonsense.  |
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Odin Highhammer
Acolyte
Sweden
24 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2017 : 21:25:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
For those that love the god nonsense
Those that don't have an issue with the deities of the Realms may not love seeing every other post of yours refer to them as nonsense.
In this case, I think Shar being the mother of the princes to be a bit nonsense. It would go against what we learn in The Godborn, where we find out that Alashar is the undoing of Cycle of Night.
Would Shar really do that to herself?
Well maybe, if you subscribe to the New Moon Heresy. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2017 : 21:35:07
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I think maybe you took him the wrong way, Wooly. I took it as 'gods being involved in EVERYTHING that happens in FR' which is a bit of shark-jumping (so I get that 'nonsense' part). I personally prefer that mortals have a lot more self-direction than many seem to give them credit for.
I don't think he meant the gods themselves are 'nonsense' (unless I'm mistaken). He even went-on to come up with a very Icky Freudian/Oedipus thingy that I think works for Shar (given the freaky nature of deities). EDIT: Except it seems to go against novel-canon, as Odin Highhammer points out above.
I hadn't realized Telemont wasn't always the leader of Shade, and this part about it 'turning dark' after he comes back to it makes a lot of sense. He may have come across those 'forbidden tomes of magic' (the shadow-stuff I theorized was seized from Thaeravel) while studying in Eileanar (some dusty, locked library-storeroom he went poking around in). I like it a lot.
He probably offed his dad (with or without mommy Shar's help). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2017 21:37:29 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6405 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6405 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2017 : 23:39:31
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And on we go...
I think you mentioned something interesting earlier, Dazzler - if the (High) Netherese did routinely live 1000+ years, and stayed 'fit' enough to have children during much of that period, that would have lead to a MASSIVE population explosion over time. Elves don't have that problem, because they don't enjoy the fecundity that humans do. I could see it getting 'icky' all over the place ("Great-Grandpa! Stop hitting on my friends!")
I would think that most enclaves would have to have had some sort of rule in-place against just such a thing (one mage creating an entire horde of offspring, which could overrun another mage's enclave). Or maybe we could just say that the 'Mythalar field' automatically inhibited reproduction (most groundlings - being non-magical - would not have this problem concerning offspring).
I used to think Telemont had a LOT of kids, but actually, when you think about how old he is (or was, when he was still able to breed), it was a very low number, all things considered. Ghengis Khan supposedly sired thousands of children in just 20 years. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2017 23:40:53 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 02:47:53
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
At woolys request however i will no longer refer to it as god nonsense. I will forevermore refer to it as:
"The incredibly well thought out and balanced portrayal of divine beings (as spoiled teenagers)"
Or, you know, you could just not share your opinion on deities every single time they are mentioned, especially when someone is just asking for info. We get that you don't like the deities; it doesn't have to be mentioned 2d6 times a day. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ari
Acolyte
40 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 06:17:01
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There's the much easier assumption, as Markustay alluded earlier, that in the hundreds of years between those times more than one Netherese magician named Telamont existed. Maybe the Lord Shadow was named in hnour of that ancient High Arcanist, like how real people often name their kids after saints or kings.
The same guy being both Lord Shadow AND High Arcanist feels like a little much for one distant historical figure. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6405 Posts |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 07:25:13
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Maybe someone just got the dates wrong and it was a mistake? Wouldn't be the first time.
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“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Odin Highhammer
Acolyte
Sweden
24 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 07:44:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And on we go...
I think you mentioned something interesting earlier, Dazzler - if the (High) Netherese did routinely live 1000+ years, and stayed 'fit' enough to have children during much of that period, that would have lead to a MASSIVE population explosion over time. Elves don't have that problem, because they don't enjoy the fecundity that humans do. I could see it getting 'icky' all over the place ("Great-Grandpa! Stop hitting on my friends!")
I would think that most enclaves would have to have had some sort of rule in-place against just such a thing (one mage creating an entire horde of offspring, which could overrun another mage's enclave). Or maybe we could just say that the 'Mythalar field' automatically inhibited reproduction (most groundlings - being non-magical - would not have this problem concerning offspring).
I used to think Telemont had a LOT of kids, but actually, when you think about how old he is (or was, when he was still able to breed), it was a very low number, all things considered. Ghengis Khan supposedly sired thousands of children in just 20 years.
On the topic of population boom we need to get to grips with 2 variables before we can make put an artificial “reproduction limit” age.
How did Arcanists stay alive? While we see all these Arcanists reach super age, Age was still something the Netherese saw as a curse, so they clearly did not have a quick fix for this. Whatever made them live that long must have cost a fortune and been risky. Could it be that this method of staying alive was only an option for card holding mythallar owners?
We also need to take into account that having children is not a limit of the amount of years that an arcanist is alive, but on the amount of wombs that can carry children at one time. Alas, that number is not increasing by having a hundred people who can live to be past 1000 years old.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6405 Posts |
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Odin Highhammer
Acolyte
Sweden
24 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 12:23:22
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Ed haa said in the past that netheril understood longevity magics far better than today. They were less risky (no 1% fail rate per use) and were available to those without enclaves (ioulaum, congenio, aumvor).
All magic use has unintended consequences however so im happy with longevity magic use limiting fertility. Its an easy explanation.
How the magics worked exactly is unknown. I suspect there were many methods involved. Aumvor i think stole his longevity from others through his living zombie magic
I agree that they understood it far better back then, but I wonder about the complexity of keeping it up.
I suspect that all the top 50 Arcanists at the time had access to the spell that allowed them to extend their life, but I also think it to be in the 9th level casting range, so very few people would be able to draw advantage of it.
As modern population growth shows, it is not how long we live that makes us have babies, but how many babies that die. If we lived forever, it would naturally drop down a whole bunch.
I think Shadow having 12 kids is an odd weird event, much like having 12 kids in today's society is seen as weird. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 15:45:50
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I'll just mention Ghengis Khan again. He supposedly had thousands of children in just 20 years (which was only a legend until recent DNA testing confirmed that 11% of the current world's population has his DNA).
He did not 'run out wombs'. Powerful men who run empires don't seem to have that problem, for some reason. The Netherese either had to have a rule in place, or something else was affecting their fertility.
It may have also been psychological - most 'alpha males' (like Ghengis Khan) aren't the studious 'nerd types'; those kinds of people tend to be 'betas', and to put it bluntly, betas don't 'get the ladies' (or men) the way alphas do. There were hundreds, if not thousands, of 'Netherese Arcanists' who were very powerful, but never bothered to build enclaves or want all the 'fame & fortune' - they just wanted to study and learn more magic. Most of those guys may not have bothered with romantic pursuits at all. Most mages would fall into this category, which is good thing, because its all those 'alphas' that become the 'ebil wizards' of lore, or archwizards leading hundreds of other powerful wizards (Vangerdehat, Szass Tam, etc). Thus, Telemont did have a bunch of children (although still not nearly enough, IMO), because he was the rare, cerebral alpha.
And I'm sure someone here will take offense to that, but I am very much used to people not liking me for telling it like it is... and just don't care. I think about the psychology behind all these fictitious people because thats how you make them feel real when you are running a game. So many module BBG's feel 2-dimensional to me, because there hasn't been much thought put into what drives them. Not every archwizard is cut-out to be a BBG - some of them would rather just study someplace quiet... and cast an occasional teleport spell to earn a living.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Feb 2017 15:46:46 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 15:51:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not every archwizard is cut-out to be a BBG - some of them would rather just study someplace quiet... and cast an occasional teleport spell to earn a living.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ari
Acolyte
40 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 20:38:20
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That doesn't make any sense. A lot of our arbitrary sexual politics comes from living in a world where you can't set people on fire by reading about it enough. Unless the males of Netheril monopolized learning and magical power to exclude women, there would be roughly equal numbers of very choosey and "alpha" mages of any sex, all part of some dizzying family tree jealously guarding their power and influence.
Unless this Telamont just raped a lot of Low Netherese women, which is hardly unbelievable, I doubt he'd want many kids with a claim to his stuff and eons in which to steal it from him.
Still feel same-name descendant is the easiest way to go to resolve the weirdness. |
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Odin Highhammer
Acolyte
Sweden
24 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2017 : 12:26:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Ari
Unless this Telamont just raped a lot of Low Netherese women, which is hardly unbelievable, I doubt he'd want many kids with a claim to his stuff and eons in which to steal it from him.
Now now, Telamont had 12 children, all with his lawfully wedded wife, who was killed by his second born, and he has lived with that sorrow ever since.
When I referred to Telamont having lots of kids, it's 12 kids. A high number for any age. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12094 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2017 : 13:15:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Ari
That doesn't make any sense. A lot of our arbitrary sexual politics comes from living in a world where you can't set people on fire by reading about it enough. Unless the males of Netheril monopolized learning and magical power to exclude women, there would be roughly equal numbers of very choosey and "alpha" mages of any sex, all part of some dizzying family tree jealously guarding their power and influence.
Unless this Telamont just raped a lot of Low Netherese women, which is hardly unbelievable, I doubt he'd want many kids with a claim to his stuff and eons in which to steal it from him.
Still feel same-name descendant is the easiest way to go to resolve the weirdness.
Who says bastards have any legal claim to his stuff? That and when archmages want to fool around they can magically make the song "let's get it on" just spontaneously happen. What woman can resist that? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ari
Acolyte
40 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2017 : 14:12:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin Highhammer
Now now, Telamont had 12 children, all with his lawfully wedded wife, who was killed by his second born, and he has lived with that sorrow ever since.
When I referred to Telamont having lots of kids, it's 12 kids. A high number for any age.
I'm glad to know her reason for existing in the timeline was to have his children and make him sad.
Anyway, doesn't that solve the dating problem on its own? Dad was High Arcanist, kid grows up, builds on his work and rep to become Lord Shadow? Sounds like a High Netherese "power to more power" fairy tale to me.
Alternatively Telamont was Bros with Jeriah Chronus and time-finagling happened. |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2017 : 17:17:53
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| That isn't the only issue; in the 3.5 up to 5. edition, can the shades make new netherilians the old way? A low Level Netherese arcanist is a great recurring villain for newbies, but I'm not sure if its workable, story wise. Especially the Return of the Archwizards books make them look like undead. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2017 : 19:13:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
That isn't the only issue; in the 3.5 up to 5. edition, can the shades make new netherilians the old way?
The old way? When two shades love each other very much... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ari
Acolyte
40 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2017 : 20:43:32
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According to 3e,4e and 5e Shades do reproduce and eat and such like humans. That's not even going into how not all Netherese are Shadovar. The most inhuman are the Twelve Princes while the common folk are much closer to the old Northerners.
EDIT: Not to mention that by the time-sensitive given Telamont could still have been a relatively normal High Netheril man and this possible son the Shade transformed over centuries by the Plane of Shadow/Shadowfell. |
Edited by - Ari on 15 Feb 2017 20:48:02 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2017 : 18:54:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Ari
quote:
Originally posted by Odin Highhammer
Now now, Telamont had 12 children, all with his lawfully wedded wife, who was killed by his second born, and he has lived with that sorrow ever since.
When I referred to Telamont having lots of kids, it's 12 kids. A high number for any age.
I'm glad to know her reason for existing in the timeline was to have his children and make him sad.
Anyway, doesn't that solve the dating problem on its own? Dad was High Arcanist, kid grows up, builds on his work and rep to become Lord Shadow? Sounds like a High Netherese "power to more power" fairy tale to me.
Alternatively Telamont was Bros with Jeriah Chronus and time-finagling happened.
First please do not bring gender equivality into Realms. It is one of the most accepting world I know.
However I think that you are right in that this woman (Lord Shadow's wife) should have been more prominent in this story as Shar prefers women. Could she have been former high priestess of Shar before Rivalen killed her? She almost had to be from some higher position for him to take her as wife but we know almost nothing about her.
So her name was Alashar (according to FR wiki)... |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2017 : 19:01:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin Highhammer
Hi guys, could one of you help me solve this one?
From a diverse amount of sources we know that Telamont was Lord Shadow, and we know that Lord Shadow was born in -645 DR.
We are also aware that Thultanthar was created in -1471 DR, and that Telamont was the guy who was High Lord Arcanist of it.
This means that I am currently missing a part of the puzzle.
Was Thultanthar raised by a different Arcanist, and Lord Shadow took over? Or was Lord Shadow an alibi and Telamont was actually born far earlier, around -1700 DR-ish?
I need to know for a friend
Well, perhaps Lord Shadow being born in -645 DR is a metaphor that parallels Christianity's concept of being "born again", or a kind of "shadow baptism"... So, perhaps -645 DR is when Telamont's "spiritual" transformation was completed.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
At woolys request however i will no longer refer to it as god nonsense. I will forevermore refer to it as:
"The incredibly well thought out and balanced portrayal of divine beings (as spoiled teenagers)"
...It's funny, the portrayal of gods as behaving like petulant spoiled children (in both the Realms and in Mythology), while we mortals shake our heads and say to ourselves "Aren't they supposed to be the ones acting like grown-ups instead of us?"... To be very much reflective of a dynamic I've seen between Adults and their aging parents... Especially after an Adult begins raising their own children and assume the mantle of responsibility for their family, their aging parents attitudes/behaviors/memories/emotions start becoming perceived as more erratic/inconsistent/childish...
Disclaimer: I'm definitely not making excuses for any of the times we've read something about the gods and had this  reaction or this  reaction... I'm just saying that it makes sense if some of the deities are surprisingly childish.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I used the same assassin that killed the father as the one who tried to kill the son (whom Telamont then married and who was supposed to be Shar herself). I also made it a bit more icky and had the assassin of the father also end up as the mother to Telamont (who better to get close to an archmage than a paramour/seductress). So that means Telamont ended up with his own mother (who killed his dad and was trying to kill him) and fathered children with her but that's okay because she was a god and the normal rules of genetics and morality don't apply (especially to evil ones).
BTW, this idea is disturbing and amazing at the same time. You win the crown for creativity on this one Dazzlerdal. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 16 Feb 2017 19:03:33 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6405 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2017 : 21:19:09
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Besides, if she used two different avatars, even Freud would have to be okay with it.
And if she is/was as bat-crap crazy as I am starting to think she is, she has multiple-personality disorder (something I would imagine 'gods' are prone to), and she may not even be aware she was also his mother.
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
...It's funny, the portrayal of gods as behaving like petulant spoiled children (in both the Realms and in Mythology), while we mortals shake our heads and say to ourselves "Aren't they supposed to be the ones acting like grown-ups instead of us?"... To be very much reflective of a dynamic I've seen between Adults and their aging parents... Especially after an Adult begins raising their own children and assume the mantle of responsibility for their family, their aging parents attitudes/behaviors/memories/emotions start becoming perceived as more erratic/inconsistent/childish...
A deity with Alzheimer's/dimentia?
Thats not only VERY frightening, it could explain a LOT. The older a deity gets, and the more times its had to 'split' itself (for whatever reason), the more 'fractured' its mind becomes. The oldest deities would be the CRAZIEST,,, hence, 'Elder Evils'.
Thats a nifty little concept ya' got there. Its got tons of traction. Novel-worthy even. You've just added a whole 'nother tier to the 'circle of life' (new gods MUST kill the old gods... before they destroy everything).
"All the gods are mad, Berk, some are just madder than others"
----- Galivar of the Bleak Cabal,
mere moments before he was murdered by an agent of a mad god |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Feb 2017 21:24:22 |
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Telamont making Shade before he was born
