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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 22:53:01
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Found these tidbits in the 4e FR PG:
"At the center of the universe lie the twin worlds of Abeir and Toril, slightly out of phase with each other. Both revolve around the same sun and both have a large lunar satellite, Selune, trailed a line of moonlets known as the Tears of Selune.
Toril is the body that folks refer to as "the world". In the aftermath of the Spellplague, it includes pockets of Returned Abeir that have replaced pockets of the old Toril. The planet's primary and "central" continent is Faerun." (page 154)
And...
Well shitake mushrooms. I searched and searched looking for whether the steelsky had a sun and moon. Thank you for finding this, but damn if it doesn't put a clinker in some of my ideas that I was writing up for what happened in Abeir. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 23:04:06
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Found these tidbits in the 4e FR PG:
"At the center of the universe lie the twin worlds of Abeir and Toril, slightly out of phase with each other. Both revolve around the same sun and both have a large lunar satellite, Selune, trailed a line of moonlets known as the Tears of Selune.
Toril is the body that folks refer to as "the world". In the aftermath of the Spellplague, it includes pockets of Returned Abeir that have replaced pockets of the old Toril. The planet's primary and "central" continent is Faerun." (page 154)
And...
Well shitake mushrooms. I searched and searched looking for whether the steelsky had a sun and moon. Thank you for finding this, but damn if it doesn't put a clinker in some of my ideas that I was writing up for what happened in Abeir.
Sorry ^^; |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 23:15:26
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
By the way, on the idea of separate astrals/World Tree Model versus the single astral/Great Wheel model (which read the below... the main difference is that in TORIL ONLY during 3.5 you could theoretically could NOT jump directly from one outer plane to another without going to the prime first). Each astral therefore did NOT have a connection directly to the other astrals. So, in essence, dweomerheart had its own astral plane, and every other special domain for Toril did as well (now, I'm fairly certain if I start looking, I'll find in 3.5 lore something that breaks this rule, but not going there). I'm assuming this became the model as a result of Vecna doing some plane spanning effect at the end of 2e or somesuch.
I read the stuff about "not jumping between branches" too. The only way to get between planes besides going via the Prime was either climbing the "World Tree" (the same term as they used for the overall cosmology, but describing an actual climbable cosmic tree) linking the "celestial" domains, and a "River of Blood" linking the "fiendish" domains. It implies that the Faerunian pantheon's Astral Plane was not able to be travelled. The cosmological world tree model itself was not so much a physical tree but a way to model connections to the Prime.
This fits in fine with the combined theory though. In this theory, the only connections to Toril's Prime are through the 3e planes (Dwarfhome etc, and also the unspoken Zakharan etc planes). Dwarfhome itself then connects to the Great Wheel, allowing Moradin's realm to exist on both Dwarfhome and Mount Celestia. It's just important to note that you can't just sail around on Faerun's Astral Sea to get to the other planes.
It is interesting about the different continents getting their own separate Astral areas. Complicates the picture a bit further. I didn't think each individual plane had its own Astral though?
I'm imagining Ao creating the separate Astrals for Toril post the Time of Troubles, rather than at the start of 3e where we learned of them (possibly as mortals were learning of them in the Realms). Then they stayed this way throughout the "Era of Upheaval", which ended with the Sundering by Ao getting rid of the separate Astrals and returning the deities' domains to being solely on the Great Wheel. The "dead" deities had been on the Wheel all along, so they were able to return. This also helps explain why the deities "feel farther away" (at least for a time) post-Sundering. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 23:33:04
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
By the way, on the idea of separate astrals/World Tree Model versus the single astral/Great Wheel model (which read the below... the main difference is that in TORIL ONLY during 3.5 you could theoretically could NOT jump directly from one outer plane to another without going to the prime first). Each astral therefore did NOT have a connection directly to the other astrals. So, in essence, dweomerheart had its own astral plane, and every other special domain for Toril did as well (now, I'm fairly certain if I start looking, I'll find in 3.5 lore something that breaks this rule, but not going there). I'm assuming this became the model as a result of Vecna doing some plane spanning effect at the end of 2e or somesuch.
I read the stuff about "not jumping between branches" too. The only way to get between planes besides going via the Prime was either climbing the "World Tree" (the same term as they used for the overall cosmology, but describing an actual climbable cosmic tree) linking the "celestial" domains, and a "River of Blood" linking the "fiendish" domains. It implies that the Faerunian pantheon's Astral Plane was not able to be travelled. The cosmological world tree model itself was not so much a physical tree but a way to model connections to the Prime.
This fits in fine with the combined theory though. In this theory, the only connections to Toril's Prime are through the 3e planes (Dwarfhome etc, and also the unspoken Zakharan etc planes). Dwarfhome itself then connects to the Great Wheel, allowing Moradin's realm to exist on both Dwarfhome and Mount Celestia. It's just important to note that you can't just sail around on Faerun's Astral Sea to get to the other planes.
It is interesting about the different continents getting their own separate Astral areas. Complicates the picture a bit further. I didn't think each individual plane had its own Astral though?
I'm imagining Ao creating the separate Astrals for Toril post the Time of Troubles, rather than at the start of 3e where we learned of them (possibly as mortals were learning of them in the Realms). Then they stayed this way throughout the "Era of Upheaval", which ended with the Sundering by Ao getting rid of the separate Astrals and returning the deities' domains to being solely on the Great Wheel. The "dead" deities had been on the Wheel all along, so they were able to return. This also helps explain why the deities "feel farther away" (at least for a time) post-Sundering.
Problem being that during the 2e era was Planescape, and we have lore of Sigil and Planescape. I would be tempted to say it was after the ToT too, but that may throw in too many clinkers than to just say "there was suddenly a change, forced by outside of Toril".
I would agree that the separate astrals going away probably happened due to the spellplague though. Abeir is still supposed to be separate though. Man, my heads starting to hurt trying to think in all these dimensions. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 23:36:24
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| Oh, and on the separate astrals and outer planes, somewhere in PGtF, it also states that the abyss, blood rift, and nine hells are connected to the same astral, such that you could go from one to the other without going to the prime first (to enable their constant warring). In and of itself, that does sound like the abyss got disconnected from that particular astral and somehow connected more strongly to the Primordial chaos (which it may have already have had a connection to). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 23:40:48
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Found these tidbits in the 4e FR PG:
"At the center of the universe lie the twin worlds of Abeir and Toril, slightly out of phase with each other. Both revolve around the same sun and both have a large lunar satellite, Selune, trailed a line of moonlets known as the Tears of Selune.
Toril is the body that folks refer to as "the world". In the aftermath of the Spellplague, it includes pockets of Returned Abeir that have replaced pockets of the old Toril. The planet's primary and "central" continent is Faerun." (page 154)
And...
Well shitake mushrooms. I searched and searched looking for whether the steelsky had a sun and moon. Thank you for finding this, but damn if it doesn't put a clinker in some of my ideas that I was writing up for what happened in Abeir.
It does NOT say they are visible, merely 'present'.
I still think Abeir is in the Astral (overlapping Toril), which means it is occupying the same physical space, but in another dimension. Since it IS in the same space (basically an 'astral projection' of Toril itself), it revolves around the same unseen sun and moon. Just as with a shadow, or a reflection in a mirror, whatever Toril does, Abeir also does.
I'm not really a fan of the new planer layout, but I was 100% on board with either of the last two (three?). I like some of its concepts - and some of them even mirror some of my homebrewed stuff - but not how they arranged everything. The whole shebang is very similar to the 'platters' model I did a few years back, but I have the plane of Shadow beneath the Prime material, and above the 'hells' (lower planes), and I have the Feywild above the Prime and below the 'heavens' (upper planes). Thus, the Shadofell becomes the actual shadow of the world (Prime Material) cast upon the hells, and the Feywild is the reflection of the world in the 'shiny underside' of the heavens. It was actual a stack of torus', not platters (my 'platters' idea spawned the latter torus model.
My Cosmology
I've been meaning to tweak that, given all the new info. My faorite part is putting the Outlands in the center of the prime Material - I feel it makes much more sense that way (so the actual 'hub' of the Great Wheel sits at the center of everything). The Gate-Towns are still there, but they are just 'Gates', which I've always gone with. The Torus that is the Prime Material Plane contains all the Crystal Spheres (settings/worlds) floating in the phlogiston.
The upper and lower planes are actually at the furthest points from it (but the endless spire pierces it all). In that model, the elemental planes are still pristine and distinct. If I were to re-draw this, I would have it where the elemental 'bubbles' were broken and leaking into the Ethereal (so THAT is what happened to the ethereal - it became contaminated by the elements and is now the 'cosmic soup' - the Elemental Chaos). The astral sits on the outside of everything (and is connected to everything). Then the entire things sits in an uber-mega-Crystal Sphere (each universe in the multiverse does). The bubble itself is super-thin, Fuligen (the color darker than black - the color of 'emptiness'), impenetrable, and is the Realm of Erebus - the only thing that stands between reality and the insanity that is The Far Realms on the other side (the state of the universe before the D&D universe was 'born' from it). Erebus may be the one being completely immune to Cthon's dark whispers from the void (because Erebus is the living embodiment of 'the dark').
And in my cosmology, Erebus is also the father of Shar. Shar is not true darkness - she is merely those places where the light cannot shine. She is shadow, and she was born of both the light and the darkness.
EDIT:
Just re-read some stuff about Erebus... and Nyx ('The Night')
Nyx gave birth to Aether and Day (Hemera). There is some kind of parallel there with Shar, Selūne, and Mystryl. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2017 23:48:34 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 23:48:18
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This is again from the wiki page (I typed in Astral Plane), so you all may have seen it, and I dont know how accurate it is, but I wanted to see what it said. I havent used the wiki page this much in a while lol. I prefer looking at the sourcebooks, but here it is.
In the 3.5 edition of D&D, the Astral plane was described as a shapeless cloud that surrounded all the other planes (including the Inner planes which were not accessible via the Astral in the Great Wheel model). The FORGOTTEN REALMS World Tree cosmology model modified the Astral plane to be tree-shaped, touching nearly all planes, and overlapping the World Tree as well. The ramification of this is that travel between planes was not easily accomplished without going through the "trunk" of the tree (i.e., the Material plane). Direct connections between separate dominions of the gods was only possible by cooperation between the deities in question
Color pools still existed in this model, but an Astral traveler had to choose the destination plane before setting out and would only encounter pools that lead to the chosen plane. To change destinations, the traveler had to reenter the Material plane and then begin the journey anew.
Toril's Material plane actually linked to several other Astral planes, each of which connected Toril to the outer-planer homes of a different set of deities. They are based on the geographical areas of control held by the different pantheons. As such, there is an astral plane for the Maztican and Zakharan pantheons (even though many of the Zakharan deities may reside on the Material Plane). The Kara-Turan faiths are not connected to their own astral plane, as instead their deities connect to the Spirit World. Very little is known in Faerūn about these other astral planes but it is theorized that Ao supervises them just as he adjudicates the conflicts between the pantheons.
In 4th edition Forgotten Realms lore, the Spellplague set the dominions adriftthey were no longer linked to a tree-shaped Astral plane but floated aimlessly in the Astral Sea.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 21 Feb 2017 23:50:29 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 23:54:27
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The steelsky of Abeir is because the atmosphere of the planet is suffused with arambar, the energy that irradiates from the corpse of the deceased primordial Arambar (whose spirit is still active in Laerakond, as per the short story "Wandering Stones" that is in the anthology book Realms of the Dead). Here is a lore blurb from the FRCG
The Steelsky (p.200)
"In Abeir, the skys pleasant blue is long forgotten. Instead, a metallic-hued vault arches from horizon to horizon. When violent weather approaches, the steelsky boils into dark green and copper-hued clouds. Steelsky doesnt obscure sunlight, moonlight, or the stars.
The metallic sky is due to arambar, the residual energy of an ancient primordial. Arambar was a Dawn Titan whose power was so vast that even in death, its memory visibly persists across Returned Abeir."
The arambar have other qualities as well. It you inhales it, you can see the future and that stuff. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 21 Feb 2017 23:55:47 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 23:57:35
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Problem being that during the 2e era was Planescape, and we have lore of Sigil and Planescape. I would be tempted to say it was after the ToT too, but that may throw in too many clinkers than to just say "there was suddenly a change, forced by outside of Toril".
I would agree that the separate astrals going away probably happened due to the spellplague though. Abeir is still supposed to be separate though. Man, my heads starting to hurt trying to think in all these dimensions.
Ahh, that's unfortunate. I was kind of hoping there wasn't any reference to people going direct to Sigil or the Great Wheel in 2e FR sources, and that we could write off references to them in 2e FR as being the current understanding based on past experiences. Oh well, easy to say it just took Ao 14 years or so post Time of Troubles to make the decision.
I don't think the separate pantheonic planes (eg. Faerun vs Zakhara) would have been combined post-Spellplague, because we don't see any reference to the deities of those other areas in the 4e material: all the 4e planes are made up of the deities that were in the "Faerunian Astral". I do agree that the "world tree" cosmological model was likely broken by the Spellplague, emptying the 3e planes out into the Faerunian Astral and making it traversable - at least until the Sundering. I don't personally get each of the 3e planes having its own Astral, but whatever works! I kind of just like the symbology of them falling off (out of) the World Tree into the Astral Sea.
As an aside, I imagine the reason why you can't "jump" between branches/planes in the World Tree model is that the planes are contained within the tree, rather than on it. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 00:07:32
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| AFAIK, the last novel of the Empyrean Odyssey trilogy states that World Tree was destroyed by the Spellplague. So, at least in 4e, the Tree did not existed anymore. Dunno if Ao resurrected it during the Sundering. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 00:08:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The steelsky of Abeir is because the atmosphere of the planet is suffused with arambar, the energy that irradiates from the corpse of the deceased primordial Arambar (whose spirit is still active in Laerakond, as per the short story "Wandering Stones" that is in the anthology book Realms of the Dead).
This actually could fit in really well with the "Abeir in the Astral Sea" theory, if we imagine that dead primordials float in the Astral Sea just like dead gods do. This way, the corpse of Arambar might be quite literally surrounding Abeir, creating the steelsky.
Because what really are primordials, anyway? I've always imagined that they're gods that function slightly differently, and were given a different name based on mythology. They're just the gods that were traditionally associated with more physically tangible things than spiritual ideals, and they formed the side that lost the Dawn War. So, it makes sense to me that their dead husks would haunt the Astral Sea much as those of dead "gods" do. They're all "powers" in the old school sense, after all. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 00:14:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
AFAIK, the last novel of the Empyrean Odyssey trilogy states that World Tree was destroyed by the Spellplague. So, at least in 4e, the Tree did not existed anymore. Dunno if Ao resurrected it during the Sundering.
I read that trilogy. It was a good read, though the ending made me mad. But I didn't remember that detail. Thanks for reminding me.
On primordials: I don't know if they are gods in the conventional sense. They don't have domains in the way, say, Silvanus does, but they are "godlike". They are more "primitive", but powerful and sentient. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 00:24:47
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
On primordials: I don't know if they are gods in the conventional sense. They don't have domains in the way, say, Silvanus does, but they are "godlike". They are more "primitive", but powerful and sentient.
Ahh, but they do have domains in the same way! Primordials like Grumbar and Akadi grant spells throughout all editions, appear as powers in Faiths and Avatars, have traditional portfolios in both 2e and 3e, can specifically be "worshipped as deities" in 4e.
I agree that they may not be gods in the "conventional sense", and that difference may have been what triggered the Dawn War. They may be primitive, and this could either be a part of that pre-existing difference, or a punishment from the winning gods after the Dawn War.
Either way, it's nearly all theoretical based on the lack of info - it's just my personal take. I just never saw that much separating gods and primordials, and imagine that it's possible their husks end up in the Astral Sea too.
Edit: The 4e FRCG does make an exception for Akadi, Grumbar etc, separating them from the other primordials "because they never fought the gods as their fellows did". This appears to be why they can still be worshipped as deities and grant spells, whereas Maegera can't. This way, the Akadis and Grumbars of existence retain their original "primordial type deity" status, whereas the Maegeras and the other primordials that fought against the gods were punished, and their connection to the spiritual realm was partly broken - perhaps not only severing their ability to grant spells to worshippers, but also fracturing their intelligence, because they are quite literally separated from the realm of ideas. That's my take from the way the lore was presented during that era, anyway. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 22 Feb 2017 00:35:59 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 00:35:12
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| That's true, I forgot about Akadi. I guess I thought of her as more of a lesser deity than a primordial, even if she is technically a primordial (because of the points you just listed). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 00:53:10
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| If we go by 4e explanation, primordials are beings who control elemental matter and energy, as opposed to gods, that control spiritual and faith powers. At least, that was what differentiated them in 4e concepts. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 00:55:14
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Now onto a random large-scale cosmological theory born out of that:
We know that the aim of the dead (petitioners) in the Planescape setting (and possibly FR) is to assimilate with their god. But why?
Perhaps the Dawn War was part of an ongoing conflict where the gods are trying to create a SINGLE UBERGOD. To do this, conflicts have to be settled. The Dawn War was the gods of ideas vs the gods of tangibility. The gods of ideas won, forcing the gods of tangibility (primordials) into submission - and the Great Wheel reflects the gods of ideas' new order. Now the gods of ideas battle each other for the dominant idea: in the form of law vs chaos, and good vs evil. If in a coming future war good defeats evil, the lawful good and the chaotic good gods will then clash (I imagine the gods of neutrality as trying to prevent the end of the conflict). Then if the lawful good gods win, they will have to clash against each other, until there is only one "idea" left - and the universe will be "perfect" and the Ubergod is created. There is a reference to this sort of concept in the Planescape source "On Hallowed Ground", talking about the next stage beyond the Greater Gods. Perhaps this is the aim of all existence: to assimilate into one perfect idea, and there will be conflict until this happens.
Perhaps the Ubergod (the combined force of all that has come before - assimilated humans, gods, etc) is required to defeat some impossible force outside the known multiverse...
...or perhaps all ideas and entities will just exist in perfect harmony within the Ubergod...
...or perhaps that will just be the end of existence. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 01:02:05
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In regard to the definition of primordials being discussed, here's what the 4e FRCG had to say, which itself has the pre-note that this is based on both Netherese legend, sarrukh recountings, and dragonborn myth. This is in the section on the creation of Abeir-Toril.
quote:
Though the worlds were lifeless and barren at this time, powerful beings of manifest entropy and elemental might coveted them. The name of their kind has been lost to the ages; the few sages who today know of their existence refer to them simply as the primordials.
So, we just don't know what they are. It seems to me that the word "primordial" and the word "deity" and the word "god" are all constructs to explain different aspects of the same type of entity - something extremely powerful which can be worshipped, grant powers, etc. Absolutely they are different, I'm not trying to say that they're not - they're so different the gods and primordials fought a war over existence - the Dawn War. I'm just trying to say they might have a similar beginning in existence - we just don't know. The fact remains that Akadi as an entity isn't that different from Auril - in fact mortals were mostly unable to detect a difference until the dragonborn arrived from Abeir and explained the difference. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 01:48:48
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Now onto a random large-scale cosmological theory born out of that:
We know that the aim of the dead (petitioners) in the Planescape setting (and possibly FR) is to assimilate with their god. But why?
Perhaps the Dawn War was part of an ongoing conflict where the gods are trying to create a SINGLE UBERGOD. To do this, conflicts have to be settled. The Dawn War was the gods of ideas vs the gods of tangibility. The gods of ideas won, forcing the gods of tangibility (primordials) into submission - and the Great Wheel reflects the gods of ideas' new order. Now the gods of ideas battle each other for the dominant idea: in the form of law vs chaos, and good vs evil. If in a coming future war good defeats evil, the lawful good and the chaotic good gods will then clash (I imagine the gods of neutrality as trying to prevent the end of the conflict). Then if the lawful good gods win, they will have to clash against each other, until there is only one "idea" left - and the universe will be "perfect" and the Ubergod is created. There is a reference to this sort of concept in the Planescape source "On Hallowed Ground", talking about the next stage beyond the Greater Gods. Perhaps this is the aim of all existence: to assimilate into one perfect idea, and there will be conflict until this happens.
Perhaps the Ubergod (the combined force of all that has come before - assimilated humans, gods, etc) is required to defeat some impossible force outside the known multiverse...
...or perhaps all ideas and entities will just exist in perfect harmony within the Ubergod...
...or perhaps that will just be the end of existence.
That's an interesting concept. I personally don't think all petitioners want to merge with their deity--or if they do, it takes a long, long time, as there are many petitioners in the various domains. I can imagine that for some, merging with their deity would be the ultimate reward (especially for high priests or clerics). I know some petitioners can obtain angel/archon status.
Since gods can be created/born/undergo apotheosis, and since there are many gods, both within the Torilian pantheon and those in other worlds, how would they eventually assimilate into one "perfect being"? Once the assimilation began, it would have to finish before any new gods were created. Not discrediting the idea, just musing. But then again, if it is the aim of all existence, then perhaps half the battle is the idea of it. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 02:38:25
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I imagine in this interpretation the gods are in somewhat of a stalemate, hence the current status quo of the Great Wheel and the Realm of Concordant Opposition. The gods being "created/born/undergoing apotheosis" are in some ways attempts to break out of this stalemate, but in other ways just slight fluctuations in the status quo. I think it's possible for things to be assimilating and breaking down in different parts of the multiverse, but the overall aim of deities and mortals is assimilation. In the meantime, everything is building towards the next Dawn War between good and evil, law and chaos - but they're not there yet. When that war does break out, the losing side becomes submissive to the winning side, much as the primordials became submissive to the gods. This keeps happening until everything is subservient to one entity - "the Ubergod".
Another layer all to this could be the foundation of what a deity is - perhaps in the beginning, there was only positive and negative energy (in 5e, these "planes" surround everything else). Then, at the creation of the multiverse, this energy exploded outwards. The positive energy fractured into what would become known as deities (both gods and primordials), and from this the worlds were created and the foundations of the multiverse as we know it was set. Subconsciously, the aims of these beings are to once again unite/assimilate into perfect positive energy - or perfect life.
The negative energy fractured into forces of unlife, antithetical to the deities. These forces of unlife became known as the obyriths. They exist on the boundaries of the known multiverse, consuming planes and existence as they come across them. They exist to ensure the universe ends - a state of perfect negative energy - or perfect unlife.
Thus the multiverse exists in a state of the deities creating life while the obyriths consume it - a perpetual war of life and unlife. However, both sides are relatively unaware of the other - they war only by the nature of their existence, although some deities (and obyriths) are beginning to wake up to the truth. In order to ensure life persists, deities are subconsciously trying to get back to a state of perfect life through assimilating into the combined perfect positive energy they existed as before the beginning of the multiverse. The trouble is, they are by definition fractured ideas, fractured entities, and they war over what the defintion of perfect life is. This first triggered the Dawn War, and will eventually trigger further wars (eg. Good vs Evil), until one idea is able to incorporate all the others and the Ubergod/Perfect Life happens. Assimilation may sound bad, but in truth it is mortals and deities coming together in a unified existence - or life (the idea is from Planescape). Thus, the subconscious aim of the deities is to assimilate into Perfect Life before the obyriths consume all, and Perfect Unlife happens.
Whether or not this will ever happen is a matter of debate: is the universe expanding or shrinking? Perhaps the current order is how it will be for millenia upon millenia, or perhaps the obyriths will have consumed everything by the year 1500 DR. It's the sort of grand truth that simply is too large to be of concern to individual mortals, or even deities, on a day-by-day basis. One truth is clear though: individual deities and obyriths may not even desire the state of Perfect Life or Unlife. However, they subconsciously strive towards these ideals through their very natures: either by gathering followers or destroying them.
The multiverse currently stands in a status-quo for the forces of life, exemplified by the Great Wheel, but the obyriths are continually, slowly, eating away at the edges of the multiverse, consuming worlds at the borders of existence itself. The deities feel an increasing urge to begin the next confrontation - be it good vs evil, law vs chaos, or both at once - in order to assimilate further and strengthen the cause of life. They're not there yet though, and perhaps they're not even aware of all this, or the existence of the obyriths. At the moment all deities can do is try to strengthen their own cause amongst mortals, so that those mortals may increase that deities strength, both through prayer and eventual assimilation. Through this, each deity subconsciously strives to become the forefront of Perfect Life (or the Ubergod) - though it may take a couple more "Dawn Wars" to get there. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 22 Feb 2017 02:54:54 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 03:01:41
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The FR "Dawnbringer" had a brief section that took place in 1500 DR, and while we don't know all of what was going on, things seemed to be continuing, but that could be ignored, too.
Admittedly, I never really liked the idea of assimilation, but again, for some petitioners, that may be the ultimate goal: to merge with their god. But the way you put it gives it a new perspective. It kind of reminds me of deep meditation or the idea of becoming "one" with the universe. I didn't like assimilation because I didn't like the idea of loss of consciousness/self (in past editions, petitioners didn't remember who they were in life, but they still had a sense of self). But again, if the goal is the Perfect Being, or perfect merging if you're a mortal soul, then it doesn't sound as bad, because that would make it the highest state of being. I still have mixed feelings about the assimilation concept, but it doesn't sound quite as bad. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 03:10:20
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I agree! The idea of assimilation makes me a little queasy if I'm honest. My gut feeling is that I don't want to be absorbed into something bigger! But, maybe it would be a joyous thing. I have old memories of that being what Neon Genesis Evangelion's ending was about - though I don't really remember. Maybe if I was a more spiritual person such a merger would seem like a good idea - and perhaps it would for Realmsian mortals once they get to the realm of their patron deity.
I tried to paint the conflict between life and unlife in a way that is compatible with the version of the obyriths and the tale of Tharizdun depicted in 4e's Demonomicon (not specifically FR though). In my ideal lore-verse, all lore can be merged and explained as part of the bigger picture. This is undoubtedly impossible, but the more a story can integrate everything, the more use it is to me.
In the Demonomicon version of the story, the obyriths give a shard of pure evil to Tharizdun, who creates the Abyss with it. He then fought back against the obyriths and united the primordials (gods of substance in my interpretation) under the guise of the Elder Elemental Eye against the gods, triggering the Dawn War - which of course they eventually lost. Thus the obyriths triggered the creation of the Abyss (even though they lost control of it). It was also an obyrith (Pazuzu) who first whispered temptation to Asmodeus.
Perhaps the creation of these two entities - the Abyss and the Nine Hells - was a bid to further delay the assimilation into Perfect Life by creating more Evil for Good to fight against, and almost simulaneously more Law and more Chaos - creating a universe more easy for the obyriths to consume. The longer the obyriths can delay assimilation, the more of a chance they have to destroy everything. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 22 Feb 2017 03:27:04 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 03:26:45
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I haven't read through all of the last few posts, but I want to post before I lost my train of thought.
I picture primordials being very much like the Titans in Disney's Hercules movie - just massive, bestial, vaguely humanoid shapes composed of a certain type of element or energy.
I also don't think they can grant spells. Now, I KNOW they did that in 1e/2e/3e, but that was before all this primoridla cra... stuff.. got shoe-horned into FR. So retroactively, rather than say 'things changed' (which doesn't work, given the 4e lore), we have instead assume something else had been gong on that whole time - intermediaries. They partnered with certain gods, and 'split the take' (worship-power).
For example, in The Hordlands they worship a being called Teylas, who is supposedly Akadi. However, not only does the name sound a LOT more like Talos, but this deity behaves just like Talos, NOT Akadi (see the Horselords novel). PLUS, Akadi is female, and Teylas is male, just like Talos. And yet, the rulebooks all say that Teylas is Akadi. I think Talos and Akadi have a deal going: Since Akadi can't actually use any of that worship herself (she is missing the necessary 'ingredient' to establish that connection... a mortal 'soul'), she strikes a deal with Talos, and he gets the 'juice' from them, and then passes some it on to her.
Of course, applying 'him' and 'her' to any god, especially ones that are little more than great big balls of energy and/or matter is kind of silly in the first place.
The other method is 'cults', which fiends use, although I think there is a similar mechanic going on there (they are somehow using a mortal as a 'conduit' for the power - basically creating a 'living avatar' within a high Pries, etc).
This is the one thing deities have over other gods - they were once mortal. They are the only ones that have what is necessary to establish this two-way link to their followers. Its probably related to 'circle magic', used by Elves, Red Wizards, and I think Witches. Human (mortal) souls can 'combine' into one 'overmind' and perform magic as if one, allowing them to do things normally not within their level. "The whole is great than the sum of its parts". This same ability to 'link' is how deities do what they do, IMO.
Outsiders don't have this. Sure, most of them have telepathy/psionics, but thats mental, not spiritual. This is what makes mortals so damn important to all the outsiders - the human soul is such a precious commodity that they are used as currency in the Outer Planes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Feb 2017 03:40:51 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 03:34:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I haven't read through all of the last few posts, but I want to post before I lost my train of thought.
I picture primordials being very much like the Titans in Disney's Hercules movie - just massive, bestial, vaguely humanoid shapes composed of a certain type of element or energy.
I think this could be what they have been reduced to as a result of losing the Dawn War, as compared to the much more sentient primordials such as Akadi, who didn't fight in the Dawn War and can still grant spells and speak to followers. It could also be what they were like beforehand - it's not clear, but also doesn't really affect the concept that they are "powers" similar to gods if not the same (at least before the Dawn War). |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 22 Feb 2017 03:35:58 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 03:53:49
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The 4e Primordials such as Akadi and Grumbar could still be worshipped as deities and grant spells in 4e, and they're listed on the Faerunian pantheon in the SCAG in 5e too. They are also described as "gods" and "godesses" in the SCAG, further making the point that gods and primordials at their core might not be so different.
I don't think we need to change anything retroactively, or insert intermediaries for them: the only thing that happened is that in 4e we found out they were beings called "primordials", which were in some way different to the other deities. Their worship didn't change at all, and they continued to grant spells throughout all editions. Only those primordials who fought and lost in the Dawn War were unable to do so, and although we only found out about their existence in 4e, it's not that relevant because the primordials that lost are not very active forces in the world - so they have essentially been consistent in their inaction across editions as well.
That's my take on the lore, anyway. YMMV. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 03:54:26
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Found these tidbits in the 4e FR PG:
"At the center of the universe lie the twin worlds of Abeir and Toril, slightly out of phase with each other. Both revolve around the same sun and both have a large lunar satellite, Selune, trailed a line of moonlets known as the Tears of Selune.
You know... The lore about Selūne that's in Realmspace has always bugged me. The whole concept of "a bunch of illusionists, under a giant illusion, living on a celestial body named after another deity" has long seemed a bad fit, and their pointless rampant paranoia bugged me, too.
But it just occurred to me that the referenced bit from 4E could give us an out. I'm not sure, yet, how to spin it, but I think there's a way, there, to connect the illusion-moon to Abeir and make the lore somewhat more workable. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Feb 2017 03:57:24 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 04:04:03
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| We already started working on a way around that in the past, if you recall, Wooly. There's a scroll around here somewhere with a number of different theories proposed by various scribes. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 04:41:00
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I agree! The idea of assimilation makes me a little queasy if I'm honest. My gut feeling is that I don't want to be absorbed into something bigger! But, maybe it would be a joyous thing. I have old memories of that being what Neon Genesis Evangelion's ending was about - though I don't really remember. Maybe if I was a more spiritual person such a merger would seem like a good idea - and perhaps it would for Realmsian mortals once they get to the realm of their patron deity.
I tried to paint the conflict between life and unlife in a way that is compatible with the version of the obyriths and the tale of Tharizdun depicted in 4e's Demonomicon (not specifically FR though). In my ideal lore-verse, all lore can be merged and explained as part of the bigger picture. This is undoubtedly impossible, but the more a story can integrate everything, the more use it is to me.
Right, exactly. For some (maybe not all) mortals, assimilation is the highest honor/achievement. I like the idea of being *one* with something, but still retaining a sense of awareness, like being one with nature (and I mean that in a spiritual sense). And monks seek a higher state of being. Assimilation could be the highest form of all, but I am still not sure how I feel about it lol.
I am only really familiar with the Realms setting. I ammbout discovering Pathfinder, but I don't really know anything about the other settings, other than what fellow scribes here have said, so I can only contribute by what I know from FR. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2017 : 23:39:47
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Toril's Combined Cosmology, version 3
I've made an updated version of the Great Wheel/World Tree mockup. This one has all the gods' names on there (and their power levels) to help easy recognition of where the domain of each god lies. As in previous versions, the "streams" represent the link between a deity's World Tree domain and their Great Wheel domain. This builds off purely 1e-3e lore, it doesn't have 4e powers (eg. Fzoul) included... yet, anyway. Power levels are based on the 3e source if there's a discrepancy.
I've made a couple of slight adjustments: we never got an "official" realm for Bahamut in 3e outside of his Great Wheel one, but we know he invaded Tiamat's realm in Dragon Eyrie at one point, so I've placed him there. Diirinka is included in Faiths and Pantheons but a realm isn't given: I'm placed him in Hammergrim to be close to the duergar deities. I also took the Faiths and Pantheons line that monstrous deities not included in that book don't exist on Toril, so no Nomog-Geaya I'm afraid. I also didn't include the separate Astrals for the other areas of Toril, eg. the Kara-Turan Astral from which the Celestial Bureaucracy acts. I figure most people here play in Faerun, and this represents the Astral active in that area.
Hope it's of use to someone! Criticism welcome. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2017 : 00:01:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Found these tidbits in the 4e FR PG:
"At the center of the universe lie the twin worlds of Abeir and Toril, slightly out of phase with each other. Both revolve around the same sun and both have a large lunar satellite, Selune, trailed a line of moonlets known as the Tears of Selune.
You know... The lore about Selūne that's in Realmspace has always bugged me. The whole concept of "a bunch of illusionists, under a giant illusion, living on a celestial body named after another deity" has long seemed a bad fit, and their pointless rampant paranoia bugged me, too.
But it just occurred to me that the referenced bit from 4E could give us an out. I'm not sure, yet, how to spin it, but I think there's a way, there, to connect the illusion-moon to Abeir and make the lore somewhat more workable.
What if our moon - Selūne that circles Toril - is really just a very elaborate illusion itself? Instead of all these theories we bounce-around about there having been 'two moons', what if there was only one, and now there's none? 
Perhaps Ao created Leira for the sole purpose of 'maintaining the lie'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Feb 2017 00:03:47 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2017 : 03:22:58
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| It's a damned good illusion, then, since it convinces your spelljammer that it's landed on a hard surface. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Cosmology Theories
