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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Found these tidbits in the 4e FR PG:

"At the center of the universe lie the twin worlds of Abeir and Toril, slightly out of phase with each other. Both revolve around the same sun and both have a large lunar satellite, Selune, trailed a line of moonlets known as the Tears of Selune.

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You know... The lore about Selūne that's in Realmspace has always bugged me. The whole concept of "a bunch of illusionists, under a giant illusion, living on a celestial body named after another deity" has long seemed a bad fit, and their pointless rampant paranoia bugged me, too.

But it just occurred to me that the referenced bit from 4E could give us an out. I'm not sure, yet, how to spin it, but I think there's a way, there, to connect the illusion-moon to Abeir and make the lore somewhat more workable.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I haven't read through all of the last few posts, but I want to post before I lost my train of thought.

I picture primordials being very much like the Titans in Disney's Hercules movie - just massive, bestial, vaguely humanoid shapes composed of a certain type of element or energy.

I also don't think they can grant spells. Now, I KNOW they did that in 1e/2e/3e, but that was before all this primoridla cra... stuff.. got shoe-horned into FR. So retroactively, rather than say 'things changed' (which doesn't work, given the 4e lore), we have instead assume something else had been gong on that whole time - intermediaries. They partnered with certain gods, and 'split the take' (worship-power).

For example, in The Hordlands they worship a being called Teylas, who is supposedly Akadi. However, not only does the name sound a LOT more like Talos, but this deity behaves just like Talos, NOT Akadi (see the Horselords novel). PLUS, Akadi is female, and Teylas is male, just like Talos. And yet, the rulebooks all say that Teylas is Akadi. I think Talos and Akadi have a deal going: Since Akadi can't actually use any of that worship herself (she is missing the necessary 'ingredient' to establish that connection... a mortal 'soul'), she strikes a deal with Talos, and he gets the 'juice' from them, and then passes some it on to her.

Of course, applying 'him' and 'her' to any god, especially ones that are little more than great big balls of energy and/or matter is kind of silly in the first place.

The other method is 'cults', which fiends use, although I think there is a similar mechanic going on there (they are somehow using a mortal as a 'conduit' for the power - basically creating a 'living avatar' within a high Pries, etc).

This is the one thing deities have over other gods - they were once mortal. They are the only ones that have what is necessary to establish this two-way link to their followers. Its probably related to 'circle magic', used by Elves, Red Wizards, and I think Witches. Human (mortal) souls can 'combine' into one 'overmind' and perform magic as if one, allowing them to do things normally not within their level. "The whole is great than the sum of its parts". This same ability to 'link' is how deities do what they do, IMO.

Outsiders don't have this. Sure, most of them have telepathy/psionics, but thats mental, not spiritual. This is what makes mortals so damn important to all the outsiders - the human soul is such a precious commodity that they are used as currency in the Outer Planes.

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Originally posted by The Sage

Heh. Your thoughts are not too far from my own, Markus.

I've a long established Realmslore tidbit [or hint, rather] that suggests "Leira" might be an archaic term for the more modern "The [Divine] Liar" in, perhaps, High Thayvian or somesuch.

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Originally posted by The Sage

I've a long established Realmslore tidbit [or hint, rather] that suggests "Leira" might be an archaic term for the more modern "The [Divine] Liar" in, perhaps, High Thayvian or somesuch.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Ulutiu didn't look 'human', not by a longshot. He looked more like a giant baby-penguin, near as I could tell from the description. Even acted like a penguin. And Ubtao - I have NEVER pictured him being anything remotely resembling a humanoid. {see other thread for more}

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Lol...so the moon is a lie? Or rather, the entity (Selune) is a lie?

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Originally posted by Ayrik

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Originally posted by The Sage

I've a long established Realmslore tidbit [or hint, rather] that suggests "Leira" might be an archaic term for the more modern "The [Divine] Liar" in, perhaps, High Thayvian or somesuch.

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I assume "High Thayan" is a refined form of Thayan or Thayvian, the native language spoken in Thay? Perhaps a rarified form of the language used for formal address, government functions, and Red Magic?

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Markustay

Ulutiu didn't look 'human', not by a longshot. He looked more like a giant baby-penguin, near as I could tell from the description. Even acted like a penguin. And Ubtao - I have NEVER pictured him being anything remotely resembling a humanoid. {see other thread for more}

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From P&P
Ulutiu appears as a stocky human male of indeterminate ancestry. His arms and legs are short and thick and his fingers resemble plump sausages. He has raven black hair and ice blue skin. His face is round with impossibly deep blue eyes, a flat nse, and tiny ears pressed flat against his head.

Not sounding like a penguin to me.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Lol...so the moon is a lie? Or rather, the entity (Selune) is a lie?

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The image that people see from the surface of Toril is an illusion. It hides the fact that there are people living on the moon.

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Originally posted by Markustay

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Lol...so the moon is a lie? Or rather, the entity (Selune) is a lie?

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The image that people see from the surface of Toril is an illusion. It hides the fact that there are people living on the moon.

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A lie embedded within a lie, I tell you.

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Tharizdun strove to marshal the power of the Elemental Chaos and its denizens in his bid for universal domination. The primordials, already angered with the gods' meddling in the affairs of the world, were easily swayed by Tharizdun's call to arms. They believed that if the mad god could reclaim the shard of evil now buried in the heart of the Abyss, it would ensure their triumph over the gods of the Astral Sea. Calling himself the Elder Elemental Eye, Tharizdun attracted powerful followers, only a few of which knew him as the god he was.

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Originally posted by KanzenAU

I like the idea of the War of Light & Darkness being part of the wider Dawn War, but I'd probably still have them as concurrent at best to cut down on complexities. If they're the same, either Selune or Shar should have fought on the side of the primordials. This could almost make sense for Shar, as one of the reasons she attacks Selune in the legends if because Selune (a god) interferes with the status quo by creating a sun from what the primordials had already created. But, the legends in the 4e FRCG state that both of the twin goddesses fought against the primordials.

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Originally posted by KanzenAU

So, although Shar could have been battling Selune and the primordials at the same time, it makes more sense to me for them to attack each other after the primordials are dealt with. However, it's all myth anyway, so it's all conjecture. It's tempting to have both conflicts going on at once, 'coz Shar be cray-cray.

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Originally posted by KanzenAU

Still thinking on ideas about the overall cosmology and how the Dawn War might play a part, I went back and had a look at core 4e's World Axis cosmology. The term "World Axis" itself just refers to the two "fundamental planes" of the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos meeting at the axis point of the Prime Material. So that in itself is nothing new - the other editions seem to agree that the two only connect through the Prime Material. I haven't reread all the 4e stuff, though I have read it in the past, so experts please correct me if I slide off too much.

Core 4e
Core 4e talks about how before the Dawn War, the gods were busying themselves creating the "Lattice of Heaven" - an all-powerful astral connection that would link all their dominions together. Meanwhile, the primordials were messing with the substance of the Elemental Chaos, ending up creating the core world of 4e (and possibly the Prime Material - its unclear). The gods then coveted the world and took it for themselves, under the pretext that the primordials would continually destroy and remake the worlds forever, preventing life from flourishing there. This angered the primordials, and they invaded the Astral Sea, setting off the Dawn War. During that conflict, the Lattice of Heaven shattered, and the gods' dominions blew apart across the Astral Sea. The primordials ultimately lost and were for the most part imprisoned within the Elemental Chaos.

I don't know about y'all, but the Lattice of Heaven seems like it was a proto-Great Wheel.

For my "assimilation theory", this can be worked in as an early attempt by the gods to combine their realms, so that unification can be that little bit closer. The primordials (gods of substance/matter in this theory) would have been concerned by the Lattice, as its formation elevated the gods' (gods of ideas) power above their own. Only millenia after the gods of ideas won the Dawn War were they finally able to "finish" the construct - the network of portals that creates what mortals call the "Great Wheel". Or perhaps the process is still undergoing, and further connections will continue to be built over time. The underlying aim will be that with more connections, unification (or conflict then unification) will ultimately result, bringing the universe a little closer to total assimilation.

In the Realms
Coming back to the effect of the Dawn War on Toril, the 4e FRCG sarrukh and Abeiran dragonborn myths tell of Ao creating what we can assume to be Abeir-Toril's crystal sphere from the Prime Material. Within the sphere, several worlds existed, coveted by beings of manifest entropy and elemental might (later called primordials by sages). At this point, Selune and Shar, birthed of the Astral Sea, moved to defend the virgin worlds against the primordials. Other gods were created from the residue of these battles, or were summoned from other planes to fight against the primordials.

It seems to me that this fits in rather well with the core 4e Dawn War arc. The primordials are busy creating and recreating in the Prime Material, and then the gods come along and take it for themselves. As a part of that conflict local to FR, it is Ao who comes along, binds a part of the Prime Material into a crystal sphere, and then allows Selune and Shar into it (or they are created by him in it out of the stuff of the Astral Sea) - setting off a local conflict of the no doubt much-wider Dawn War already raging. The conflict kept on going on Toril throughout the "Shadow Epoch", until the primordial known as Ubtao the Deceiver turned the tide in the favor of the "elder gods". The remaining primordials are slain, imprisoned, or driven away.

I imagine it is at the start of the Dawn War that the Netherese legend of the creation of Chauntea takes place. When Selune and Shar enter/are born into the sphere, they give life to the havoc-ridden creations the primordials have made by fashioning them into the planets we know today, birthing Chauntea. Their interference is part of the wider conflict between primordials and gods that becomes the Dawn War, but the creation of Chauntea also triggers the War of Light and Darkness, pitting Selune and Shar against each other, birthing many other gods along the way. As an alternative (which I think I prefer on reflection), although the birth of Chauntea occurs at the start/prior to the Dawn War, the War of Light and Darkness may not occur until after it ends, coinciding nicely with bringing warmth to Toril at the end of the ice age.

It is not until millennia later (c. -31,000 DR) that the batrachi manage to release several primordials. At this time, the primordial Asgorath is said to be intent on destroying Toril, and hurls the ice moon at it. In response, Ao sunders Abeir from Toril and grants the imprisoned primordials dominion over Abeir, the gods over Toril.

Putting it together
WIth the Lattice of Heaven shattered, perhaps different gods came up with their own plans to reforge it, or remake it in a way more favourable to them. Many gods found the design known to mortals as the Great Wheel a desirable compromise, spreading faith between 17 planes of existence. Ao did not find this favourable to him however, not wishing the worship of his sphere to be distributed elsewhere. Ao thus created the World Tree for his own crystal sphere - potentially a more favourable design to funnel more faith-power directly to him, potentially so that he is powerful enough to eventually assimilate all else in conflicts to come. The deities active on Toril agree to this because of the sheer potential of the sphere. Admittedly this retcons the World Tree model back to starting at the end of the Dawn War, which won't suit anyone - but I get the impression 3e retconned the World Tree to "how it has always been" anyway. The Great Wheel being in FR in 1e/2e can be explained by saying that's how planar travellers experienced it beyond Tori's crystal sphere.

It's also important to note that there are five main groups of "primordials" we need to consider:
1. The primordials who sat out the entire plane-spanning Dawn War (Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth, Istishia)
2. The primordials who lost the plane-spanning Dawn War outside Ao's crystal sphere, or were driven away from Toril in the local Dawn War
3. The primordial that sided with the gods during the local Dawn War (Ubtao)
4. The primordials who lost the local Dawn War but were released by the batrachi and ultimately granted dominion over Abeir (eg. Asgorath?)
5. The primordials who lost the local Dawn War but weren't released by the batrachi (eg. Maegera?)
Categories 4 and 5 might have been lumped together by Ao and given dominion over Abeir, but I get the impression they weren't, as we have examples of "imprisoned" primordials on Toril such as Maegera.

Summarizing
I've lost my train of thought, so I'm just going to write a combined summary of the above events, combining core-4e with FR.
1. The gods are concentrating on building the Lattice of Heaven while the primordials mess about with matter, creating and recreating worlds.
2. The gods move in on the worlds. Ao creates his own crystal sphere, containing some of this matter the primordials are messing with.
3. The primordials begin to resent the gods as they mess with their creations. Shar and Selune are born into Ao's crystal sphere, and reforge the worlds as they see fit, birthing Chauntea. Similar things happen in other newly created crystal spheres.
4. The primordials react by going to war with the gods across the planes, beginning the Dawn War (pushed over the edge by Tharizdun in the guise of the Elemental Eye - thanks Zeromaru X). On Toril, the primordials initially battle Shar and Selune, but soon other gods are summoned or created out of deific battles (these deific battles could be god vs primordial, or could be part of the War of Light and Darkness, mentioned below). This time on Toril is known as the "Blue Age".
5. The Lattice of Heaven is shattered by the primordials (in the Dawn War's earliest phase - thanks Zeromaru X).
6. The primordial known as the Night Serpent cloaks Toril in an ice age as the Dawn War continues on. This era on Toril is known as the "Shadow Epoch". Gods and primordials continue to fight. The "elder gods" on Toril at this time are led by Ouroboros the World Serpent.
7. The Dawn War begins to wind down in favour of the gods across the planes.
8. Ubtao the Deceiver betrays the primordials in favour of the gods, ending the conflict on Toril. The primordials on Toril are slain, imprisoned, or driven away.
9. The Dawn War ends across the planes. My guess is that the new order results in what mortals call the Great Wheel.
9. Shar and Selune clash over bringing warmth to Toril/Chauntea, beginning the War of Light and Darkness. This event may have occurred much earlier during the Dawn War, but I thought this timing was appropriate because the bringing of warmth coincides with the end of Toril's ice age.
10. During the conflict between the gods, the creator races are born, the ice recedes, and the Days of Thunder and recorded history begins.
11. Assumedly sometime early in the Days of Thunder, Mystryl is born and balances out the War of Light and Darkness, establishing the uneasy truce/cold war that continues to this day.
12. During the Days of Thunder (c. -31,000 DR), the batrachi manage to release several primordials. Asgorath attempts to destroy Toril because she can't claim it for herself, and Ao is forced to sunder Abeir and Toril. The primordials freed by the batrachi are sent to Abeir, the gods left dominion over Toril.
13. Soon after, the Time of Dragons and the Time of Giants begin, and history continues to roll on...

This summary is cobbled together from canon myths in the 3e FRCS and the 4e FRCG, combined in with core-4e Dawn War events. The order of events may not be exact, it's my best guess - but all the above did happen at some point. I kind of got lost in my thoughts writing all this, I think it needs a bit more time to percolate in my head before I write anything more.

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Originally posted by Markustay

What if Selūne DIED in the Dawn War? What if that drove Shar insane, and now she dresses up the dead moon and sits there rocking and talking to her 'sister' (who she answers for as well.. because she now has a split personality.) Shar as 'Norman Bates'.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Bazim-Gorag, the FireBringer, - he was free after the shadow epoch, because he was a leader of the batrachi... or was he one of the released primordials and he came to lead the batrachi?.... but got imprisoned by some wizard... freed again after the spellplague

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Originally posted by sleyvas

I'd say with a name like the Dawn War, the creation of the Sun had something to do with it. DURING the Dawn War, Shar was "snuffing out all light and life". So, at some point, I'd gather that the "Night Serpent" .... whether that's Shar, Dendar, or someone now gone... snuffed out the sun. Whether that was a big cloud that blocked the sun's light, an illusion, or an actual closing off of the portals to the elemental plane of fire that light the sun up (which inadvertently might have pissed off beings of Primordial Fire). That was the Shadow Epoch, and it was probably during the Dawn War. Eventually, somehow or other, the Sun relit, bringing light and warmth.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

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Originally posted by Markustay

What if Selūne DIED in the Dawn War? What if that drove Shar insane, and now she dresses up the dead moon and sits there rocking and talking to her 'sister' (who she answers for as well.. because she now has a split personality.) Shar as 'Norman Bates'.

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That plot-twist would give the Dark Moon heresy a whole new meaning.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Bazim-Gorag, the FireBringer, - he was free after the shadow epoch, because he was a leader of the batrachi... or was he one of the released primordials and he came to lead the batrachi?.... but got imprisoned by some wizard... freed again after the spellplague

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Afaik, Bazim-Gorag is treated as an "ascended" primoridial in 4e FRCG. I take that as he was not a proper primordial until after the Spellplague.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Which begs the question... WTH is an ascended primordial? Hmm, that being said, just found out there was a 4e resource called Heroes of the Elemental Chaos that apparently has a list of all kinds of primordials.

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Originally posted by KanzenAU

That is a fantastic list of all the 4e stuff ZeromaruX! So many memories of lore-reading from my 4e campaign. Nice work assembling all that.

One thing that has bugged me is the Io/Asgorath thing. Io is supposedly destroyed during the Dawn War, but Asgorath is one of the primordials involved with the batrachi event much later. Plus, Io is associated with some myths of dragonborn creation - but I guess that's only a problem if we suppose they were created on Abeir, if they were created before Abeir-Toril was sundered that would make reconciling the two easier. Perhaps there is a deeper meaning to why they have two names - perhaps twins, or one being the shadow of the other?

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