| Author |
 Topic  |
|
KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Feb 2017 : 03:51:12
|
Agreed, it is very hard to make a "map" of a number of infinite planes! For me, there is still merit in such a thing, because I want planeswalking to be a viable option for my players. Even the earliest FR products had people visting Waterdeep from other planes, and in my game these individuals are present in the city. It's important to me for me to able to say where they came from, and how they got to Toril, and what life is like where they come from. This definitely isn't important to everyone's style of game, but it interests me.
I guess what I want to do is not necessarily understand how exactly the planes work, but how they're understood by planars and Toril primes that venture into the planes, and for me that means explaining how the Great Wheel and the World Tree fit together into a greater picture. As far as my 2D presentation I posted, I imagine the World Tree existing outside of normal space dimensions rather than something constrained by length, width, and height. But, drawing it helps make the links between planes more comprehendable, so it's useful to me - and by extension my players, who might use such a model to plan their adventures.
Edit: We could take the "damaged World Tree" of 4e concept even further by saying as the planes "dropped off" the Tree, they folded over on themselves to become the finite "planet-like" planes in the Astral that 4e described. Then, when Ao restored the Tree in the Sundering (conjecture), they were restored to their former status.
An additional factor that I've mostly let slip past me thus far is that Toril's Astral Plane is actually a separate entity to the Great Wheel Astral Plane (p139 PGtF). The World Tree exists within this separate Astral Plane, with the Material Plane serving as its trunk. This doesn't necessarily change what we've said, as the individual branches of the tree could still be links to the Great Wheel of the "main" Astral Plane.
I'm imagining Ao folded a section of the Astral Plane into itself (either when Toril was created, or maybe when Toril and Abeir split) that would serve as a home to the deities active on Toril, creating a space he could control more absolutely. Those deities wishing to have a presence on Toril would have to do so from his "separate" Astral. Within his separate Astral he created a World Tree to bind the deities' realms both to Toril (the trunk according to PGtF), and their home realms on the Great Wheel (the tips of the branches). Thus, the deities home planes on the Great Wheel partly extend into the World Tree and their "Torilian" plane - or, for example, Moradin's realm of Erackinor on Mount Celestia has been partly folded by Ao into his separate Astral and the World Tree, becoming part of Dwarfhome there by joining with the folded in Realms of Marthammor Duin, Beronnar, etcetera. Moradin and the other deities have to initially allow this of course, but they do so in order to be active on Toril - arguably one of the most divinely active of the Crystal Spheres deities have access to.
This way, a better 2D representation would be of the World Tree being outside of rather than inside the Great Wheel (an abstract concept anyway, but stay with me), and the tips of the World Tree's branches reaching over to the Great Wheel (extending between the separate Astral planes) rather than from "within" it. All conceptual regardless, but this might make more sense to those actually travelling the planes.
Edit 2: One advantage (or disadvantage, depending on how you look at it) of the latest Sundering is that without any lore existing at the moment, it's possible to do whatever you want with the planes. We just don't know what gods are where, if there's even a World Tree concept any more, or if the gods are all just back on the Great Wheel. There's a reference to dwarves believing they go to Dwarfhome in the SCAG, but other than that I don't recall a great deal to go on. Part of me is inclined to say that Ao "unfolded" the second Astral plane into the original, resetting the status quo to that of the 2e books. It's just easier - althought the second Astral as an area that Ao has full control over also makes it easier to comprehend his power over the other gods influential on Toril. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 20 Feb 2017 04:51:44 |
 |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2017 : 04:14:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Perhaps 'The Cage' is where they keep Tharizdun's physical body (his 'essence' is in the Ethereal)? Maybe the 'ultimate evil' (PURE Chaotic Evil) had to be separated into three pieces and imprisoned far from each other, to keep it contained. Thus, the original 'Sigil' was nothing more than the chained body of the greatest 'Elder evil', but its nature warps reality, and draws like-minded beings (magic-users, who also spend their lives altering reality) to it, like moths to a flame. This is why all these High-Magic cities are slowly drawn into Sigil. "They say if you travel too deep into the 'underbelly' of The Cage, the tunnel walls start to appear like living flesh."
That could also explain why deities can't enter Sigil... Either the presence of a certain amount* of divine energy could be drawn off to free/awaken that portion of Tharizdun, and/or there was some sort of pact sealed at his imprisonment, mandating that deities would avoid his jail. (Though, honestly, the latter is not anywhere near as likely or easy to explain as the former).
*Certain amount meaning "enough of a divine rank to answer prayers and form an avatar." Clerics may contain some of that divine energy, but it's too "diluted" by their mortality and life energy to matter, for this purpose. Even cramming every cleric/priest in existence into Sigil wouldn't be enough to count.
Or maybe the Spire itself is the prison, and Sigil is the guardhouse... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2017 : 16:06:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sigil is called 'The Cage' for a reason - its a prison for something. I think the LoP is 'the Warden'.
I also like Rip Van Wormer's take on Sigil and Imaskar, and using what Sleyvas just said above - and combining it - that perhaps every 'great magical civilization' eventually builds it own little 'Sigil', and just like Gate-towns, its nature causes it to slowly shift into the Outlands, and merge with Sigil proper (and as it does in Ravenloft/DoD, no-one seems to recall a time when it wasn't connected). So Sigil isn't so much a single city, but rather, a great big ball of cities all mashed together in bizarre and non-Euclidean ways. I picture whole sections with weird architecture no-one understands, belonging to races long gone (and strange 'things' still scurrying about in the semi-ruins... the devolved inhabitants, perhaps?)
I'd also connect it to Michael Moorcock's Tanelorn - his city that exists 'nowhere, and everywhere'. Its a city that exists on every world, mostly in legend, and only the bravest of souls (high level) can find it. So Taking Moorcock's vision, and just saying those folks aren't really 'finding a city' in some remote region of their world, they are finding a Gate to districts within Sigil, but the gate itself would like a fantastic city to those approaching it (so you better remember where you entered, because if you step out a different gate you could wind-up on some other world). So maybe it was an ancient, lost city of their world... but it has since drifted into the planes and merged with Sigil, merely leaving an 'echo' of itself behind... and a Gate.
Perhaps 'The Cage' is where they keep Tharizdun's physical body (his 'essence' is in the Ethereal)? Maybe the 'ultimate evil' (PURE Chaotic Evil) had to be separated into three pieces and imprisoned far from each other, to keep it contained. Thus, the original 'Sigil' was nothing more than the chained body of the greatest 'Elder evil', but its nature warps reality, and draws like-minded beings (magic-users, who also spend their lives altering reality) to it, like moths to a flame. This is why all these High-Magic cities are slowly drawn into Sigil. "They say if you travel too deep into the 'underbelly' of The Cage, the tunnel walls start to appear like living flesh."
Holy Crap Markustay.... you just fueled an idea for me. Not Tharizdun. Imaskar... Sigil as a Prison for some great elder evil... weird extra dimensional places.... gods not being able to enter Sigil much like the godswall that surrounded realmspace.... Entropy, the god swallower, is a Primordial, but also appears to be tied to an elder evil....
I present to you, Pandorym is somehow tied to the formation of Sigil, and the lady of Pain is the warden? The godswall was some kind of extension possibly from Sigil to Realmspace (or vice versa maybe)? You know, the lady of pain does somewhat resemble an Imaskari. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2017 : 21:13:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Plus, we are barely even thinking of it as 3-dimensional (we tend to think of even the Outlands in a 2-dimensional fashion). We think in terms of all these planes in front of us, behind us, to the left, or to the right (not even up or down).
But gods and other outsiders are operating in an 11+ dimensional space, so there are 'directions' we mortals can't even fathom. There could literally be an infinite number of things anchored to the wheel that we don't know about.
Where did you get that 11+ dimension space theory? I have seen you use it multiple times and it still sounds silly to me. Why would the gods have to perceive universe in more dimensions than us - they are not omnipotent after all...
They have more information available than common mortal on Toril but it is actualy quite close to our modern spy network - you get instant updates on multiple events from multiple source and you just have to allocate your processing time to events that you care about. You have also many direct or indirect methods to manipulate events and multiple opponents (and allies) with conflicting agendas. As you cannot take their heads off you will play most of the time the This for That game. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2017 : 22:20:04
|
My Over-cosmology theories are blended with RW science - Its M-theory, which is a unified String theory, and is based on eleven-dimensional supergravity.
We mortals perceive things in three diemsions. 'Higher' beings may be able to perceive stuff in more dimensions. Szass Tam once cast a spell that let him see-into about a half dozen dimensions (to view alternate timelines), and it almost drove him nuts. There is also a scene in one of the Avatar novels where Oghma tries to explain to (the new?) Mystra about how each god sees the world differently, through their own perspective, and being the goddess of magic, she was able to alter to her view to see some of what they see. Not exactly the same thing, but it all ties together.
I think we are 'aware' ('understand the rudiments of') of at least 5 of these dimensions now (the fourth or fifth is 'Time') - not sure. I know Quantum physics is making huge advances all the time. Not sure if you take objection to the existence of these other dimensions, or you just don't like the idea that some 'gods' may be able to utilize some of them. I never said the Powers we know can use all of them. In fact, I doubt deities can even see into more than the fourth. But there are things MUCH more powerful than deities, and I think Overpowers are just the bottom tier of that extra-divine hierarchy. I think things like conduits (in Planescape) are just passageways built by some of these uber-beings through some of those dimensions the rest of us - deities included - can't fathom.
And 'Time' is a very real dimension in D&D - its called Temporal Prime, and only a very elite cadre of magic-users can access it (which makes you wonder why gods don't mess with it more).
I tried to link the dimensions to schools of magic once, but it doesn't really work out so well. I had this idea that every plane exists in all the dimensions, but to varying degrees, so some dimensions have greater impact on some planes than others. Magic just uses these connections to manipulate reality. Like I said, its a nice theory, but way too hard to work-out on paper. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2017 22:29:06 |
|
|
|
KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 01:58:22
|
Any comments from anyone on my mock-up of the cosmology? Looking for ways to improve it, either by making it more useful to people or fitting it in with the lore better.
One wrinkle with the split Astral planes is the fact that the Nine Hells and the Abyss are present in both, but none of the other Great Wheel planes are. I imagine the connections of the "World Tree" to those planes are just more direct, and there's no "divine dominions" between them, so they just exist as colour pools within Ao's Astral Sea. I've also just realised that the core-4e concept of "planes as planets in the Astral Sea" doesn't seem to have been explicitly used in FR - they're just described as vast but finite spaces drifting in the Astral Sea. The way to the Nine Hells and the Abyss then could easily just be a "colour pool" within Ao's Astral Sea during this era. This doesn't explain the connection to the Abyss's new home in the Elemental Chaos of course (Asmodeus having thrown it down there after consuming Azuth, subsequently ending the Blood War), but that's a whole separate issue. I'm not sure what the situation with the Abyss, Asmodeus, and the Blood War is in the new post-Sundering FR canon, but I imagine it's out of the Elemental Chaos again. I'm hoping it comes up in the Brimstone Angels series, which I've only recently started. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 02:11:21
|
| I could be wrong (I do not remember if the Brimistone Angels series mentioned it or not), but I think the Abyss is still in the Elemental Chaos. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 02:20:54
|
| This is one of the reasons I really wish the SCAG had more detail about the planes. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 03:47:44
|
| Is not mentioned in the last trilogy, IIRC (I can check the books later, for more details). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
|
|
|
KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 04:47:19
|
I made a discovery upon a closer reading of the SCAG: there is actually a mention of a Great Wheel plane in there! Arborea is mentioned as the home plane of the elven gods:
quote:
From the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide
They are believed to dwell in the realm of Arvandor on the plane of Arborea.
The line of Arvandor being on Arborea is repeated elsewhere in the book. However, there is also a reference in the same book to "some people saying" that Bruenor Battlehammer "delayed receiving the rewards of Moradin's own Dwarfhome" - a reference to a World Tree plane. BUT, the event in question also occurred prior to the Sundering...
This leaves my best current guess is that Ao sundered the entire World Tree/"Ao's Astral Plane" model, moving the deities back to being solely on the Great Wheel, as they were in the pre-Time of Troubles era. This might also help explain why "dead" deities came back: Myrkul may have always been alive on the Great Wheel, but unable to access Ao's Astral Plane and Toril. The reference to Dwarfhome in the SCAG is before the Sundering, so it doesn't affect this.
Of course, other explanations are also possible. It's possible we're just back to the dual Great Wheel/World Tree model of 3e, and the elven gods' home on both Arvandor and Arborea is a reflection of that dual model. However, with FR seemingly very close to being "core 5th edition D&D", and "core 5th edition D&D" embracing the Great Wheel wholeheartedly in the PHB and DMG, I'm inclined to guess that the World Tree model won't be referenced again. The Abyss is certainly in the Great Wheel in the core 5e model, so I'm betting the same being true in the Realms. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 05:17:10
|
I'd prefer it back where it was - it seems a little far-fetched that Asmodeus gained enough power from a minor god (who wasn't even multispheric!) to be able to physically tear the Abyss - an infinite number of infinite levels (filled with an infinite number of enemies) - loose from the Great Wheel - an invulnerable uber-artifact from the beginning of time, and there was no force that could prevent that? Asmodeus wasn't even a god originally - he's a Fallen Angel! And Azuth didn't have that kind of power - he was underling of Mystra!
Either way, it doesn't matter, because I think EVERY 'planer model' is wrong because of reasons I stated earlier (drawing a 3-dimensional version of many-dimensional object on a 2-dimensional surface). For all we know the Abyss could have ALWAYS been in the Elemental Maelstrom , with a major connection (the Gate Towns) to the Wheel, and all Asmodeus did was garner enough (temporary) power to sever that link. He didn't MOVE anything - he just closed the door. The only reason why people notice the Abyss in the elemental planes now is because they lack structure now - the Abyss was closed off from them (mostly) as they 'revolved' around it. Picture having one of those floating lounge-chair thingies in a big pool (thats the Abyss in the elemental chaos), and the four elemental planes floating around it are beach balls (and throw in a bunch of smaller pool toys for all those in-between para/psuedo planes). Anything inside those balls is unaware of the lounge chair, even though they're all in the same pool. 4e comes along and pops the balls, spilling-out whatever was on the inside (pure elemental matter). Now its all mixed together swirling around in the pool, with the chair still floating there in the middle, but now all of that IS aware of the chair.
Now the guy who wanted to use that chair - Asmodeus just slammed the patio door in his face and told him the party was over. No-one ever really moved the chair.
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Any comments from anyone on my mock-up of the cosmology? Looking for ways to improve it, either by making it more useful to people or fitting it in with the lore better.
See my comments above - I think ANY model will have problems. You did a bang-up job drawing all those lines (more than I would have done), but in reality, nothing is really 'where it is' in a drawing. Every plane could be universes away from each, but anchored by gates/portals/'Gate Towns'/etc. There doesn't need to be two astrals, or two ethereals, or two Abyss' and two Hells - they're all the same, just connected to the other stuff differently.
It all comes back to my 'theory of everything', and two very simple, basic rules: Your reality is defined by your preconceived notions (so if you think a connection exists, it does), and you leave by the door you came in by. That second one just means that if you entered Hell from the great tree, and a buddy of yours came from GH and entered from the Great Wheel, and you both went to a kickin' party at Lilith's place (she throws the best balls!), and you walk each other back to that SAME DOOR, when you exit you wind-up back in the Tree, and he winds up back in the Wheel (or Toril & Greyhawk - whatever). Unless you have VERY powerful magic (like deity-level), you cannot 'force' a gate to go to another destination other than the one you came from. the door is the same door on the one side (in this case, Lilith's house in hell), but it leads back to wherever you came from, even if ten people all from different places walked through at once.
Thus, its all the same hell, and Abyss, etc. Those guys only think its in The Tree, or on the Wheel. Once you leave the Prime Material, you are immaterial - only what you think matters. There are no actual 'locations' for anything.
But I DO applaud the amount of effort you put into making it all work.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2017 05:23:47 |
|
|
|
KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 05:26:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
He didn't MOVE anything - he just closed the door.
This is brilliant. Stealing it.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It all comes back to my 'theory of everything', and two very simple, basic rules: Your reality is defined by your preconceived notions (so if you think a connection exists, it does), and you leave by the door you came in by. That second one just means that if you entered Hell from the great tree, and a buddy of yours came from GH and entered from the Great Wheel, and you both went to a kickin' party at Lilith's place (she throws the best balls!), and you walk each other back to that SAME DOOR, when you exit you wind-up back in the Tree, and he winds up back in the Wheel (or Toril & Greyhawk - whatever). Unless you have VERY power magic (like deity-level), you cannot 'force' a gate to go to another destination other than the one you came from. the door is the same door on the one side (in this case, Lilith's house in hell), but it leads back to wherever you came from, even if ten people all from different places walked through at once.
I still really like this idea, which you articulated quite well early in this thread. However, at the table, I imagine it would be difficult to manage, so I've avoided going with it for my game.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But I DO applaud the amount of effort you put into making it all work.
Thanks! I tend to get stuck on concepts until I grok them really well, and making these sorts of things helps me with that. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 16:54:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'd prefer it back where it was - it seems a little far-fetched that Asmodeus gained enough power from a minor god (who wasn't even multispheric!) to be able to physically tear the Abyss - an infinite number of infinite levels (filled with an infinite number of enemies) - loose from the Great Wheel - an invulnerable uber-artifact from the beginning of time, and there was no force that could prevent that? Asmodeus wasn't even a god originally - he's a Fallen Angel! And Azuth didn't have that kind of power - he was underling of Mystra!
Either way, it doesn't matter, because I think EVERY 'planer model' is wrong because of reasons I stated earlier (drawing a 3-dimensional version of many-dimensional object on a 2-dimensional surface). For all we know the Abyss could have ALWAYS been in the Elemental Maelstrom , with a major connection (the Gate Towns) to the Wheel, and all Asmodeus did was garner enough (temporary) power to sever that link. He didn't MOVE anything - he just closed the door. The only reason why people notice the Abyss in the elemental planes now is because they lack structure now - the Abyss was closed off from them (mostly) as they 'revolved' around it. Picture having one of those floating lounge-chair thingies in a big pool (thats the Abyss in the elemental chaos), and the four elemental planes floating around it are beach balls (and throw in a bunch of smaller pool toys for all those in-between para/psuedo planes). Anything inside those balls is unaware of the lounge chair, even though they're all in the same pool. 4e comes along and pops the balls, spilling-out whatever was on the inside (pure elemental matter). Now its all mixed together swirling around in the pool, with the chair still floating there in the middle, but now all of that IS aware of the chair.
Now the guy who wanted to use that chair - Asmodeus just slammed the patio door in his face and told him the party was over. No-one ever really moved the chair.
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Any comments from anyone on my mock-up of the cosmology? Looking for ways to improve it, either by making it more useful to people or fitting it in with the lore better.
See my comments above - I think ANY model will have problems. You did a bang-up job drawing all those lines (more than I would have done), but in reality, nothing is really 'where it is' in a drawing. Every plane could be universes away from each, but anchored by gates/portals/'Gate Towns'/etc. There doesn't need to be two astrals, or two ethereals, or two Abyss' and two Hells - they're all the same, just connected to the other stuff differently.
It all comes back to my 'theory of everything', and two very simple, basic rules: Your reality is defined by your preconceived notions (so if you think a connection exists, it does), and you leave by the door you came in by. That second one just means that if you entered Hell from the great tree, and a buddy of yours came from GH and entered from the Great Wheel, and you both went to a kickin' party at Lilith's place (she throws the best balls!), and you walk each other back to that SAME DOOR, when you exit you wind-up back in the Tree, and he winds up back in the Wheel (or Toril & Greyhawk - whatever). Unless you have VERY powerful magic (like deity-level), you cannot 'force' a gate to go to another destination other than the one you came from. the door is the same door on the one side (in this case, Lilith's house in hell), but it leads back to wherever you came from, even if ten people all from different places walked through at once.
Thus, its all the same hell, and Abyss, etc. Those guys only think its in The Tree, or on the Wheel. Once you leave the Prime Material, you are immaterial - only what you think matters. There are no actual 'locations' for anything.
But I DO applaud the amount of effort you put into making it all work.
I agree with most of this, and I really liked the swimming pool allegory.
It should be noted that during 3e that FR resources did reference multiple astrals that weren't necessarily linked. My viewpoint is that all planes are in fact finite (despite what we're told), but that its these links that "grow" between the planes that make them seem endless. So, for instance, there's a Seven Heavens for Toril, a Seven Heavens for Greyhawk, etc.. and you can walk from one to the other via an extended "pathway" that connects them such that you don't realize that you're going from one to another. Thus, you could "blow up" the Seven Heavens of Toril and it in effect just severs those links to the OTHER Seven Heavens that exist. In fact, some of these links may shrivel up and die, such that something that used to be called the Seven Heavens and was connected to the others no longer has a connection to the others and they may then decide to rename the original by calling it say "Celestia". Similarly, one plane may bud off of itself and create a new plane with a connection to the old and then shrivel the link between them.
In this model there is somewhat of a problem with multi-spheric deities, but not a huge one. Essentially, each deity would have to build a "clone"/"manifestation"/"greater avatar" of itself that is separate. I suspect there is some kind of "dimension" or "frequency" where all of these separate godly personalities exist as one or as some kind of council, and that some effects are able to access this dimension and thereby affect gods across pantheons/crystal spheres/etc..., but that doing so can be much more complex than affecting an individual "god node". This handles the issues where sometimes something affects a god and its only local, but other times a god is affected and it goes across the planes. If you were to compare this to networking, it would be as though this were a multi-cast (not broadcast) transmission, and anything subscribing to that multi-cast would accept the input. It may be that over time some "manifestations" quit subscribing to that multi-cast transmission, and thus they sever themselves from the other "manifestations" of that god in that collective.
In this way, there may actually be multiple and different versions of say Tiamat, some of which have lost track of each other. Then again, whenever two versions of the same being find one another but one is no longer listening to the multi-cast transmission, they may be able to rejoin the conversation with the aid of the other. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 17:12:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I made a discovery upon a closer reading of the SCAG: there is actually a mention of a Great Wheel plane in there! Arborea is mentioned as the home plane of the elven gods:
quote:
From the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide
They are believed to dwell in the realm of Arvandor on the plane of Arborea.
The line of Arvandor being on Arborea is repeated elsewhere in the book. However, there is also a reference in the same book to "some people saying" that Bruenor Battlehammer "delayed receiving the rewards of Moradin's own Dwarfhome" - a reference to a World Tree plane. BUT, the event in question also occurred prior to the Sundering...
This leaves my best current guess is that Ao sundered the entire World Tree/"Ao's Astral Plane" model, moving the deities back to being solely on the Great Wheel, as they were in the pre-Time of Troubles era. This might also help explain why "dead" deities came back: Myrkul may have always been alive on the Great Wheel, but unable to access Ao's Astral Plane and Toril. The reference to Dwarfhome in the SCAG is before the Sundering, so it doesn't affect this.
Of course, other explanations are also possible. It's possible we're just back to the dual Great Wheel/World Tree model of 3e, and the elven gods' home on both Arvandor and Arborea is a reflection of that dual model. However, with FR seemingly very close to being "core 5th edition D&D", and "core 5th edition D&D" embracing the Great Wheel wholeheartedly in the PHB and DMG, I'm inclined to guess that the World Tree model won't be referenced again. The Abyss is certainly in the Great Wheel in the core 5e model, so I'm betting the same being true in the Realms.
This is entirely plausible, especially if everything has been "restored" to what it used to be. This could mean either the Great Tree or Wheel, but based on what you pointed out (I don't have the 5e PHB or DMG, though now I may have to get at least one of them), it seems likely.
On a side note, I don't like how the SCAG uses "people believe" so often. Yeah, mortals don't know everything, but one of the things I've always liked about the Realms is that the planes and the gods were fact, not just belief. I don't want to start a whole new discussion with this, just something I noticed. Maybe I should put it in the "Pet Peeves" scroll |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 17:29:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I made a discovery upon a closer reading of the SCAG: there is actually a mention of a Great Wheel plane in there! Arborea is mentioned as the home plane of the elven gods:
quote:
From the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide
They are believed to dwell in the realm of Arvandor on the plane of Arborea.
The line of Arvandor being on Arborea is repeated elsewhere in the book. However, there is also a reference in the same book to "some people saying" that Bruenor Battlehammer "delayed receiving the rewards of Moradin's own Dwarfhome" - a reference to a World Tree plane. BUT, the event in question also occurred prior to the Sundering...
This leaves my best current guess is that Ao sundered the entire World Tree/"Ao's Astral Plane" model, moving the deities back to being solely on the Great Wheel, as they were in the pre-Time of Troubles era. This might also help explain why "dead" deities came back: Myrkul may have always been alive on the Great Wheel, but unable to access Ao's Astral Plane and Toril. The reference to Dwarfhome in the SCAG is before the Sundering, so it doesn't affect this.
Of course, other explanations are also possible. It's possible we're just back to the dual Great Wheel/World Tree model of 3e, and the elven gods' home on both Arvandor and Arborea is a reflection of that dual model. However, with FR seemingly very close to being "core 5th edition D&D", and "core 5th edition D&D" embracing the Great Wheel wholeheartedly in the PHB and DMG, I'm inclined to guess that the World Tree model won't be referenced again. The Abyss is certainly in the Great Wheel in the core 5e model, so I'm betting the same being true in the Realms.
This is entirely plausible, especially if everything has been "restored" to what it used to be. This could mean either the Great Tree or Wheel, but based on what you pointed out (I don't have the 5e PHB or DMG, though now I may have to get at least one of them), it seems likely.
On a side note, I don't like how the SCAG uses "people believe" so often. Yeah, mortals don't know everything, but one of the things I've always liked about the Realms is that the planes and the gods were fact, not just belief. I don't want to start a whole new discussion with this, just something I noticed. Maybe I should put it in the "Pet Peeves" scroll
On the "people believe" that's always been common in the realms. Its the uncertain narrator concept and it allows folks to put out feelers for an idea without having to solidly commit that what they have is indeed the best idea for the setting. A lot of times, as you'll see in these forums, this allows people to take something that conflicts with some other lore, combine the two with another spin, and ultimately make both MOSTLY true. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 17:44:20
|
I think you overcomplicate it. For me there is Great Wheel cosmology and World Tree is just a roadmap for Torilan planewalkers to their favored destination. As main way to get into the planes from Prime is magic, you have to know where you are going else you may end up anywhere on the target plane. So they are not shifting to Arborea they are going to Arvandor and that is where they end with this knowledge (and successful spell).
I have even got further and asked myself - what setting do I want to play in? And answer was Forgotten Realms not Darksun not Dragonlance not Grayhawk so I have changed Spelljamming to a way of travel in Astral sea (as Githyanki do). This way I do not have to think about Overpowers, multispheric dieties,... For me Mulhorandi/Untheric slaves came from Zakhara as did their dieties (Imaskari did just a big version of Dimensional Anchor over their domain).
As for the inner planes the six of them are formed around a place of elemental chaos and they are kind of barrier that also gathers their element from it. On their borders are quasi and para elemental (planes) made by mixing of bordering planes. Beyond them is Ethereal plane that is formed from protomatter created by inner planes. On the next border is Material plane and you can say those inner planes are "inside it" to form an idea about neigbouring forces. On the "outside" Shadow plane, after that Astral sea full of nothigness and then Outer planes - realms of souls, morality and gods who rule there.
Another heresy of mine is that Toril is not a planet but a plane and it is aligned with both inner and outer planes. On its borders it merges back to inner planes, deep under is Negative plane and up above is Positive plane - the source of Light. Moon is just a manifestation of Selune with her allies (stars) in the neverending battle with Shar (darkness). Sun is a manifestation of current sun-god (Lathander) and Dawn heralds (stars) are signaling the phases of the Sun. |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 17:59:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I made a discovery upon a closer reading of the SCAG: there is actually a mention of a Great Wheel plane in there! Arborea is mentioned as the home plane of the elven gods:
quote:
From the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide
They are believed to dwell in the realm of Arvandor on the plane of Arborea.
The line of Arvandor being on Arborea is repeated elsewhere in the book. However, there is also a reference in the same book to "some people saying" that Bruenor Battlehammer "delayed receiving the rewards of Moradin's own Dwarfhome" - a reference to a World Tree plane. BUT, the event in question also occurred prior to the Sundering...
This leaves my best current guess is that Ao sundered the entire World Tree/"Ao's Astral Plane" model, moving the deities back to being solely on the Great Wheel, as they were in the pre-Time of Troubles era. This might also help explain why "dead" deities came back: Myrkul may have always been alive on the Great Wheel, but unable to access Ao's Astral Plane and Toril. The reference to Dwarfhome in the SCAG is before the Sundering, so it doesn't affect this.
Of course, other explanations are also possible. It's possible we're just back to the dual Great Wheel/World Tree model of 3e, and the elven gods' home on both Arvandor and Arborea is a reflection of that dual model. However, with FR seemingly very close to being "core 5th edition D&D", and "core 5th edition D&D" embracing the Great Wheel wholeheartedly in the PHB and DMG, I'm inclined to guess that the World Tree model won't be referenced again. The Abyss is certainly in the Great Wheel in the core 5e model, so I'm betting the same being true in the Realms.
This is entirely plausible, especially if everything has been "restored" to what it used to be. This could mean either the Great Tree or Wheel, but based on what you pointed out (I don't have the 5e PHB or DMG, though now I may have to get at least one of them), it seems likely.
On a side note, I don't like how the SCAG uses "people believe" so often. Yeah, mortals don't know everything, but one of the things I've always liked about the Realms is that the planes and the gods were fact, not just belief. I don't want to start a whole new discussion with this, just something I noticed. Maybe I should put it in the "Pet Peeves" scroll
On the "people believe" that's always been common in the realms. Its the uncertain narrator concept and it allows folks to put out feelers for an idea without having to solidly commit that what they have is indeed the best idea for the setting. A lot of times, as you'll see in these forums, this allows people to take something that conflicts with some other lore, combine the two with another spin, and ultimately make both MOSTLY true.
True, but there are certain things that have remained (to a point) consistent, until 5e. I haven't seen the "people believe" nearly as often in previous editions in regards to the gods. Yes, I completely understand vagueness or belief on certain things, as mortals aren't going to know everything, and it does allow room for people to come up with their own explanation, but certain things weren't phrased with "people believe" before. It was just stated as fact, and that was something I liked.
Take the above excerpt, for example: "They are believed to dwell in the realm of Arvandor on the plane of Arborea." Before, it would have been more common to see it written like this: "They dwell in the realm of Arvandor on the plane of Arborea." I'm probably in the minority here, but it was something that didn't sit well with me. I realize in the grand scheme of things, it's a minor detail, since by and large, the gods are still a part of the Realms, and the existence of the gods and planes are still fact, it's just the details are lacking. Perhaps that's why they used the word "believe"? In previous editions, there was a lot more detail (that's why we're able to have this conversation about the cosmology at all, though of course certain details about the planes are left up to interpretation, as we are doing now), and maybe this is just their way of simplifying it to allow DMs more wiggle room (though people have been creating homebrew worlds throughout all the editions).
Idk, it's just something that irked me, personally, but again, it's probably a minor detail. Back to the main discussion lol.
Sorry for the big font. I notice posts do that sometimes. I tried changing it, but it still appeared like that. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 21 Feb 2017 18:02:56 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 18:08:26
|
By the way, on the idea of separate astrals/World Tree Model versus the single astral/Great Wheel model (which read the below... the main difference is that in TORIL ONLY during 3.5 you could theoretically could NOT jump directly from one outer plane to another without going to the prime first). Each astral therefore did NOT have a connection directly to the other astrals. So, in essence, dweomerheart had its own astral plane, and every other special domain for Toril did as well (now, I'm fairly certain if I start looking, I'll find in 3.5 lore something that breaks this rule, but not going there). I'm assuming this became the model as a result of Vecna doing some plane spanning effect at the end of 2e or somesuch.
However, just to play with that idea for a bit. What if Abeir had its own astral and it was in it (that's the steelsky). What if said astral had connectivity to its own finite sections of the elemental chaos and that's it. Then, the Toril/Dweomerheart astral shrivels its connection on the Toril side and instead connects to the Astral of Abeir/Abeir's elemental chaos... and in so doing for a short bit Abeir's elemental chaos leaks into the elemental planes of Toril, surrounding them and connecting them much like in Markustay's example above... and revealing the connection between the elemental chaos and the chaos of the Abyss... and suddenly there were direct connections from some layers of the Abyss to Abeir (which we know exist due to the Brimstone Angels stories).
If this same shift happened with the astrals related to domains for some other pantheons (say like the Mulhorandi one) OR for maybe some domains that were sitting out there currently disconnected from Toril because their deity was dead).... hmmm, dead deities float in those astrals.... when the shift happened, might there have been some kind of big magic flux come through that could have awakened a bunch of dead deities?
From the 3.5 "Player's Guide to Faerun" page 164 below
Toril actually connects to several different Astral Planes, each one linking Toril’s Material Plane to the outer-planar homes of a different group of deities. These Astral Planes are based on the geographical areas of control held by the different pantheons. The Astral Plane known to characters in Faerûn leads to the planes of the Faerûnian pantheon, as well as the nonhuman pantheons (whose geographical area of control overlaps that of the Faerûnian deities) and the Mulhorandi pantheon. Characters in other areas can enter different Astral Planes with links to the Outer Planes inhabited by their own deities. Ao is thought to supervise the separate Astral Planes just as he adjudicates conflicts
between the pantheons. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 19:10:47
|
Found these tidbits in the 4e FR PG:
"At the center of the universe lie the twin worlds of Abeir and Toril, slightly out of phase with each other. Both revolve around the same sun and both have a large lunar satellite, Selune, trailed a line of moonlets known as the Tears of Selune.
Toril is the body that folks refer to as "the world". In the aftermath of the Spellplague, it includes pockets of Returned Abeir that have replaced pockets of the old Toril. The planet's primary and "central" continent is Faerun." (page 154)
And...
"Toril lies at the center of multiple planes. Two of those planes--the Feywild and the Shadowfell--form reflections of Toril...Beneath Toril lies the churning substance and energy of the Elemental Chaos, which holds numerous realms within its reaches. Below the Elemental Chaos id the Abyss, home to demons.
Above Toril lies a silvery void known as the Astral Sea, in which stars part to reveal dominions--homes of the gods.
Arvandor (home of the elven and gnome deities)
Celestia (an enormous mountain bathed in silver light)
The Cynosure (where deities meet
The Deep Wilds (a primeval woodland)
The Demonweb Pits (a roiling terrain of spiders)
The Dismal Caverns (an uncultivated area of powerful monsters)
Dwarfhome (home to the dwarven deities)
The Fugue Plane (where the dead go to be judged)
The Green Fields (a pastoral region)
The House of Knowledge (a vast repository of learning)
The Nine Hells (where devils reign)
Nishrek (a chaotic landscape where the orc gods rule)
The Supreme Throne (the prison of a mad god)
The Towers of Night (where darkness reigns supreme)
Warrior's Rest (where battle ever rages)" (page 158)
|
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 21 Feb 2017 19:11:58 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 19:49:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
It should be noted that during 3e that FR resources did reference multiple astrals that weren't necessarily linked. My viewpoint is that all planes are in fact finite (despite what we're told), but that its these links that "grow" between the planes that make them seem endless. So, for instance, there's a Seven Heavens for Toril, a Seven Heavens for Greyhawk, etc.. and you can walk from one to the other via an extended "pathway" that connects them such that you don't realize that you're going from one to another. Thus, you could "blow up" the Seven Heavens of Toril and it in effect just severs those links to the OTHER Seven Heavens that exist. In fact, some of these links may shrivel up and die, such that something that used to be called the Seven Heavens and was connected to the others no longer has a connection to the others and they may then decide to rename the original by calling it say "Celestia". Similarly, one plane may bud off of itself and create a new plane with a connection to the old and then shrivel the link between them.
In this model there is somewhat of a problem with multi-spheric deities, but not a huge one. Essentially, each deity would have to build a "clone"/"manifestation"/"greater avatar" of itself that is separate. I suspect there is some kind of "dimension" or "frequency" where all of these separate godly personalities exist as one or as some kind of council, and that some effects are able to access this dimension and thereby affect gods across pantheons/crystal spheres/etc..., but that doing so can be much more complex than affecting an individual "god node". This handles the issues where sometimes something affects a god and its only local, but other times a god is affected and it goes across the planes. If you were to compare this to networking, it would be as though this were a multi-cast (not broadcast) transmission, and anything subscribing to that multi-cast would accept the input. It may be that over time some "manifestations" quit subscribing to that multi-cast transmission, and thus they sever themselves from the other "manifestations" of that god in that collective.
In this way, there may actually be multiple and different versions of say Tiamat, some of which have lost track of each other. Then again, whenever two versions of the same being find one another but one is no longer listening to the multi-cast transmission, they may be able to rejoin the conversation with the aid of the other.
I've posited that the infinite planes may not, in fact, be infinite... Instead, my thinking is that each plane slowly tapers off and gradually fades into the next. It's kinda like how geographical features are shown on a map. On a map, the plains continue right up until a full-on set of mountains springs up. On the other side of those mountains, it's suddenly flat again.
But in reality, you have miles of flat, level plains, slowly and gradually becoming less flat with gently rolling hills. And then larger hills. And then still larger. And eventually, those hills are mountains. You can't pinpoint any one spot where the ground went from smooth and grassy to rough and rocky, because it's a gradual change.
And I think the planes could be the same way. In the "central" area, where all the divine domains and towns are, the plane will be solidly one alignment and set of planar features. LG, for example. As you get further and further from that central area, the LG-dominance becomes less and less, and NG starts creeping in... After a while, you're solidly in NG, with LG nowhere in sight.
So the plane does not have a boundary, making it -- technically -- infinite. But sooner or later, you've left that plain and moved to the next, without even noticing.
Anyway, that's a theory of mine. Not sure if I think it's truly the way things are, but it's something that crossed my mind as a possibility.
I'm not a fan of multiple versions of the same plane, save for the Prime itself -- and that's because lore does refer to alternate Primes and because the rules are different for different campaign settings. Therefore, I theorize that all the other planes of Planescape are unique, but there are infinite Primes that touch most of them.
Or perhaps there's only one Prime, but it has infinite layers -- and each of the campaign settings is its own layer. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 20:29:52
|
On what Wooly said - I'm not a fan of multiple planes with the same name, either, which is why I came up with my 'neighborhoods' theory awhile back: Different worlds connect to different parts of planes, and in a (nigh) infinite plane, they may as well be separate planes. in other words, suppose the Astral was just as large as the universe. Each solar system (Crystal Spheres in D&D) would have their own 'neighborhood' corresponding to its location in the astral. In order for someone to walk from Toril's astral (neighborhood) to Krynn's Astral (neighborhood), you'd have to walk the same distance as if you were walking from one solar system to another. in other words... FORGET ABOUT IT! They may as well be 'separate planes'. Buuuuuut, if you use some sort of 'Planesjamming' technology - a ship that can sail the astral seas - you could get there WAY quicker, like with SJ.
And there may be some sort of mitigating factors that would hamper this as well - 'denizens of the void', and what not.
As for whether the planes are infinite or not - I ascribe to much the same theory, but I think a lot of them - like how the 'Gate Towns' work in the Outlands - those are actual gates, that are too large for people to realize they are not actually traveling physically from one plane to another (and it may even be gradual - the 'gate' itself could be passing through an intermediary plane - a transitive plane - so its not 'instantaneous' - that would simulate the effect you are talking about, Wooly).
@CorellonsDevout - thats some intriguing bits you came across there. So there STILL IS a second moon for Abeir-Toril?
I'm also thinking the 'silver sky' in Abeir is actually the Astral - it just makes so much sense. I think thats where the copy-Toril is being 'stored'.
Maybe the astral is like the 'basement' of the universe? Or the 'attic'? (the Shadowfell/Chaos might make for a better 'basement') Gods just shove 'their stuff' in there to store it... and in most cases probably never look at it again. maybe if we travel to the astral, we can find an old trunk with pictures of Ao as a baby? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2017 20:31:38 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 20:38:09
|
[b]Markustay:[/i] I am not sure if the statement "both have a large lunar satellite" means they have a separate moon, or share a moon like they do the sun. And the "silvery sky" likely is the Astral, considering it is a "silvery void".
I also noticed that the Elemental Chaos was stated as being *below* the Abyss. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 20:47:50
|
| Wasn't the reverse? The Abyss below the Elemental Chaos? (that fits with the Abyss of the core 4e cosmology) |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 21:15:38
|
FR always has to be different. LOL
I think once again, its all matter of perception (preconceptions/dogma). Torillians find it 'easier' to access the Abyss, hence, they picture it 'closer', with the Elemental Chaos 'beyond'. For people from most other worlds (like GH), accessing the elemental Chaos is easier, hence their belief its 'closer'.
In an immaterial multiverse, everything is as far away as you think it is. The only things that are 'set in stone' are those things in the prime material, which is what makes The Prime so special - its an immutable anchor.
My latest (DARK) theory is that the Prime Material is just the dead body of GOD. Hence, its importance. I've been using the theory that its the body of Ymir, but since I think all the Sidereals are just aspects (concepts) within the 'mind of GOD', that would make that 'piece' (aspect) more important for some reason. Perhaps that is the only place non-claimed (by Gods) 'soul stuff' can be found? Maybe losing that piece (died during the Godwar?) is what fragmented GOD (the world serpent) from the very beginning?
Some pieces (gods, etc) are working hard on putting it all back together, while others are trying very hard to continue its dissolution (entropy). Chaos (Cthon? Tharizdun?) wants it to continue the decay, because then the universe reverts back to its primal (unregulated) state.
And 'The Great Wheel' is just a machine - a vast artifact created by the lawful powers - Good & Evil - to gather the soul-pieces back together, until they have enough to become one again. They are trying to resurrect GOD. Mortals are part of the machine - they are the living 'sponges' that soak-up the soul-stuff, allowing it to be collected. And the Modrons were just the maintenance droids, created to keep the whole thing running in the dark belly of the multiverse (I've asked this once before - what IS on the underside of the Outlands?)
Its pretty dark - probably the darkest version of the cosmology I've yet to come up with. It gives all sides a 'desperation' that we don't usually see, not even in the canon PS material. It also leaves us mortals as just a necessary 'cog in the wheels', nothing more. And yet, infinitely important.
Man, I need to start writing books... with maps... and maybe get a monkey... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2017 21:23:48 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 21:17:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Wasn't the reverse? The Abyss below the Elemental Chaos? (that fits with the Abyss of the core 4e cosmology)
Oops, sorry, typo on my part. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 21:19:27
|
So I wrote all that over a typo? LMAO!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 21:25:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So I wrote all that over a typo? LMAO!
Haha no. In my original post (the one with the quote from the PG) I wrote it correctly. The typo was in my later response. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 21:34:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for whether the planes are infinite or not - I ascribe to much the same theory, but I think a lot of them - like how the 'Gate Towns' work in the Outlands - those are actual gates, that are too large for people to realize they are not actually traveling physically from one plane to another (and it may even be gradual - the 'gate' itself could be passing through an intermediary plane - a transitive plane - so its not 'instantaneous' - that would simulate the effect you are talking about, Wooly).
I've theorized that, as well, though I didn't present it, this time around. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Cosmology Theories
