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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Oct 2017 : 17:17:25
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| Like how truly successful leaders have to adapt to the needs/demands of the people. I think the gods retain their "essence", so to speak, but they adapt/change based on the perceptions of their followers, because that is the best way to reach them. It's along the same lines as avatars usually appearing in some humanoid form--it's a form their mortals followers understand. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2017 : 03:47:15
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| I think some of this is also addressed in that new series, 'American Gods', which sadly, I haven't seen. My sister watches it though, and she told me some stuff, and it does seem that in that world, the gods are almost completely reliant on godly worship and beliefs (some gods even have to 'rebrand' themselves in order to stay relevant). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Oct 2017 03:47:57 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2017 : 14:23:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think some of this is also addressed in that new series, 'American Gods', which sadly, I haven't seen. My sister watches it though, and she told me some stuff, and it does seem that in that world, the gods are almost completely reliant on godly worship and beliefs (some gods even have to 'rebrand' themselves in order to stay relevant).
If you've never read American Gods, go read it. It is amongst my favorite books. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 20:13:17
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I didn't even know it was a book. My bad. I'll have to check it out.
I am reading through ZeromaruX's most excellent History of the Nentir Vale because he covers all the proto-history, some of which is directly FR, and a lot of which is 'Core' (although that concept barely exists anymore), and I've run head-first into some problems. I began my Over-Cosmology as a way of rectifying a lot of disparate mythological (and D&D, religious, and folklore) information, weaving it all together into a more cohesive whole than Gygax & Co. ever attempted (they just took all the pantheons, shoved them into the Outer planes, and never tried to explain the interrelationships therein). Planescape made some in-roads in this area, but it was mostly in regards to how it affected D&D worlds (which, of course, makes perfect sense). However, 4e began digging into those 'guts' of the Cosmology, which I should be happy about because they were finally trying to build a unified cosmology for D&D, as I've been attempting for years. Unfortunately, a LOT of the 4e cosmological concepts were inconsistent with others (to the point where they created multiple backstories for the same new concepts, just muddying the waters worse than before).
So this is where I am at; I had it where the Fey came first, before elves, because that makes the most sense (and our modern 'Tolkien' elves ARE Fey, so one were an outgrowth of the other even in RW terms). I don't really want to mess with that - True Fey should be like 'Saints' to normal elves, and they should be in awe of them. But the gods... that's a problem. Because it was always stated quite clearly that the Seldarine were the 'Elven Pantheon', which was different than the fey pantheon, one should have assumed that the Seldarine pantheon 'grew' out of the Fey pantheon, the same way the races did - that the Fey pantheon 'came first'. Unfortunately, even thought that's a right-fine logical progression, it does not make sense in terms of 4e's proto-cosmology. They have the Seldarine being involved in some VERY early stuff, well before the creator races were made, which means way before the Fey even existed. And since I theorize that 'deities' arise from the rank-and-file of a race I just can't reconcile that.
We simply CANNOT apply Elaine's Evermeet novel lore to the 4e (now 5e) D&D universe - the Seldarine could NOT have ever been 'elves'. Sadly, it makes far more sense (D&D-wise) for them to have created the Fey, and the Fey gods to have come later... which totally sucks IMO. This is a major snafu for me. And to top it all off, we also have 'Archfey' and Primal spirits, neither of which are directly connected to the Seldarine. Its just weird, since they all seem to be about the same thing. In the past few months we've had some really good discussions about the Cosmology, especially one in regards to the CandleKanon (which seems to have stalled). Aldrick commented in one -
quote:
1. I am in favor of ignoring the 4E core rationale for having all of these different power groups for different types of powers because that feels too gamist, and it obviously does not even match up to the current edition of D&D. However, we still need lore explanations for why they exist independent from the gamnist reasons.
I am going to just run with this, since we no longer need these unnecessary divisions anymore. Its weird, but its going to have to go something like this -
Seldarine > Fey > Fey Pantheon > Elves
That order looks completely wrong to me, but there is no other way to reconcile everything. I'm going to have to also say Titania and Oberon were Seldarine originally, because I don't want to have to scrap the entirety of my cosmological musings in regards to the Creator Races. I won't be the first time another pantheon split-off from an earlier one (in fact, it was the Seldarine in the other best-known case as well). At least 4e gave me another 'Queen of the Fey' (Tiandra), so I have no problem stealing Titania. As for the etymology I developed around 'Seldarine', thats not really a problem at all. How many things get named in the RW centuries - sometimes millennia - after they're gone? Mortals are the ones that need labels; Gods do not. EDIT: Geeze - just started looking through Heroes of the Feywild, and the tale they have for Lolth and the Elves (unnamed, but they are using the term 'elf' for Fey, and THAT I can work with) conflicts completely with everything FR lore says about them. Its almost as if they are trying to merge the fey myths with the elven ones, which doesn't work at all, because Lolth is NOT the QoA&D.
One last thing - while reading through ZeromaruX's stuff I also came upon the Primordial named 'Piranoth' who would make an excellent 'Core version' of our Annam (its said he created the first Titans). I would just make Annam himself an ascended Titan, but that wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, since he later fathered (terrestrial) titans.
Note I once again differentiated between two groups with the same name with capitalization. I may run with that as well, even though it could be confusing for folks who don't realize I'm doing it. Thus, 'Elves' could mean Fey in the feywild, whereas 'elves' would be the mortal ones living in the prime. This also means that Eladrin are Fey, but NOT necessarily archfey/LeShey. Technically, there really aen't a whole lot of True fey (Creator race) left - it would be like how it is with the Sarrukh, Batrachi, or Aearee (are there ANY of those left?) I'm personally of the opinion there are only a handful of 'First Men' (Blackmoorians) still left as well. New members of these races really can't be born post-Dawn War - they would always be the 'lessened' (prime material) variety. If two survivors of the original group (pre-Dawn War) had offspring, then I could possibly use the capitalization thing there. Thus, if Titania and Oberon were to have a new child, it would be fey, whereas its parents are Fey. It may even retain its immortality, if it stays within the Feywild.
So much to think about now.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Oct 2017 20:14:20 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 00:45:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I didn't even know it was a book. My bad. I'll have to check it out.
I am reading through ZeromaruX's most excellent History of the Nentir Vale because he covers all the proto-history, some of which is directly FR, and a lot of which is 'Core' (although that concept barely exists anymore), and I've run head-first into some problems. I began my Over-Cosmology as a way of rectifying a lot of disparate mythological (and D&D, religious, and folklore) information, weaving it all together into a more cohesive whole than Gygax & Co. ever attempted (they just took all the pantheons, shoved them into the Outer planes, and never tried to explain the interrelationships therein). Planescape made some in-roads in this area, but it was mostly in regards to how it affected D&D worlds (which, of course, makes perfect sense). However, 4e began digging into those 'guts' of the Cosmology, which I should be happy about because they were finally trying to build a unified cosmology for D&D, as I've been attempting for years. Unfortunately, a LOT of the 4e cosmological concepts were inconsistent with others (to the point where they created multiple backstories for the same new concepts, just muddying the waters worse than before).
So this is where I am at; I had it where the Fey came first, before elves, because that makes the most sense (and our modern 'Tolkien' elves ARE Fey, so one were an outgrowth of the other even in RW terms). I don't really want to mess with thay - True Fey should be like 'Saints' to normal elves, and they should be in awe of them. But the gods... thats a problem. Because it was always stated quite clearly that the Seldarine were the 'Elven Pantheon', which was different than the fey pantheon, one should have assumed that the Seldarine pantheon 'grew' out of the Fey pantheon, the same way the races did - that the Fey pantheon 'came first'. Unfortunately, even thought thats a right-fine logical progression, it does not make sense in terms of 4e's proto-cosmology. They have the Seldarine being involved in some VERY early stuff, well before the creator races were made, which means way before the Fey even existed. And since I theorize that 'deities' arise from the rank-and-file of a race I just can't reconcile that.
We simply CANNOT apply Elaine's Evermeet novel lore to the 4e (now 5e) D&D universe - the Seldarine could NOT have ever been 'elves'. Sadly, it makes far more sense (D&D-wise) for them to have created the Fey, and the Fey gods to have come later... which totally sucks IMO. This is a major snafu for me. And to top it all off, we also have 'Archfey' and Primal spirits, neither of which are directly connected to the Seldarine. Its just weird, since they all seem to be about the same thing. In the past few months we've had some really good discussions about the Cosmology, especially one in regards to the CandleKanon (which seems to have stalled).
I haven't read Zeromaru X's stuff, but I always thought the Fey pantheon and the Seldarine were separate pantheons. After all, the first elves to migrate from Faerie to Toril worshiped the faerie gods, not the Seldarine. The Seldarine are immigrant deities, and we can still apply the events that happened in Evermeet. Even if the Seldarine weren't called "elven gods", they became the elven pantheon (the elves were probably "created in their image").
I think problems arise when we try and merge pantheons and make things more concise. I've always allowed for more complexity, because with all the worlds/planes, it makes sense to assume there are many deities. This allows for the variety of pantheons. Keeping the Fey and Seldarine as separate pantheons allows for us to have our cake and eat it, too. Again, I haven't read Zeromaru's stuff (link? Is it on the CandleKanon?), but it makes the most sense to me if we keep the pantheons as separate. This allows for them both either to have existed at the same time, or one to have come before the other, but not because one pantheon "grew" from the other.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 17 Oct 2017 01:03:59 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 05:02:03
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I don't know where I got his 'History of the Nentir Vale' - probably from the Piazza (Found it here).
Although technically a 'fan work', its entirely based on all the canon from 4e, which is spread all through out the 4e products. What he did was put it all neatly in one place (and an amazing job he did on it as well).
Not only were Gruumsh and Corellon involved in the Dawn War, there is some inference that it may have been started by the Seldarine. That puts the existence of the Seldarine WELL BEFORE the creation of the Fey... which is just plain weird to me. I can't have them as ascended fey if they predated the fey.
This is why my thinking now is that Elves are just 'lesser fey'. They aren't a separate race at all, and the more I think about it, that's really how it should be - they were one of the 'created' by the Fey Creator race. Edit: Looking though older threads since I wrote this, I realize I've had this same thought before, but my mind always goes back to separating the two. Yet, the Elven gods must have created the Fey first, which means the Seldarine really were the FIRST Fey pantheon (back before pantheons were probably even 'a thing'.) the Eladrin weren't the 'wayward children', the elves were, and even that makes sense, now that I think about it. The elves are the ones who followed the 'fey powers', which were the fey pantheon, which must have been the first ascended (arch)fey. The elves turned from the Seldarine to follow the Gods of their own making. In 4e terms, this means the fey gods were deities*, whereas the Seldarine were Estelar - Gods that preexisted the 'mortal races' (which is also a misnomer, because nothing was 'mortal' back then).
Or in other words, the Seldarine (some of them, at any rate) were 'primal Gods', from the beginning of creation. 4e says as much. That part most of us probably have no problem with. What bothers me is that is sticks the 'Fey Pantheon' in a secondary position to the Elven one - they are an adjunct to the older pantheon. I can still work with all of this, but it makes it a lot more convoluted. The Seldarine create the Fey. The Fey create the Elves (lesser fey). Some Fey (Archfey) become ascended deities through veneration by their own people (mostly lesser fey, or 'Elves'). In fact, one might even construe that the Fey Gods became gods through an agenda of preprogrammed apotheosis - that the 'Elves' were lead to believe these archfey were truly Gods (and to them, they may as well have been).
Most of my homebrew (Over-cosmology) lore remains intact, except now instead of thinking of the fey deities as the 'parents' of the Seldarine, its really the other way. I have to see how this effects some of the genealogies I've come up with. It certainly screws-up the whole Lolth backstory, because she most certainly was a dark elf. Its like Corellon was messing around with one of his grandkids. Of course, if elves ARE fey (just a lesser variety), as I've now surmised, she may have been a 'True Fey' after all, and the lore is just referring to her as a 'dark elf', even though we know for a fact there was no such thing as dark elves (of the drow variety) at that time. In fact, some of the lore has always hinted at something along these lines - Drow refer to surface elves as 'fairy elves', which is probably a reference to those elves who stayed behind in faerie (The Feywild). That would be the Eladrin. The other elves - Sylvan, or 'green' elves - would have left, either on missions from the fey (as per GHotR), or because of 'political differences' (the ones who followed Gruumsh out of Faerie). The pre-drow dark elves were indeed green elves, so perhaps drow don't refer to wild/wood elves in that fashion (or they did, eventually, lumping them in with the eladrin elves after a time).
Some of this may actually work out better - maybe the Fey pantheon were the Vanir, not the Seldarine (the Valar).
*The 'Archfey' were really the first deities, but because they are part of a very small group that predated the Godswar, they aren't usually considered deities; there are several such groups, like the Primal spirits, etc. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Oct 2017 20:18:54 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 05:11:28
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Here is the current version.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2mLfpEGKv-Sb29tN2tBYVBWZzA/view?usp=sharing
EDIT:
After having read Markustay's last post, I'm updating the document with the tales from the Heroes of the Feywild 
However, I guess one thing we should take into account while working with a metaplot of this nature, is the paradigm of 4e: they wanted to disregard previous lore. So, if you try to reconcile stuff, you'll notice that some differences were made on purpose to contradict previous lore (because they were overwriting that lore).
If you take that into account, your work will be more easy, because you can either disregard 4e stuff, disregard older stuff, or just disregard the contradicting stuff and reconcile the rest. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 17 Oct 2017 06:23:49 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 08:18:34
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No! I can make it ALL work! Bwa ha ha ha! {Markus goes running down the street in his underpants with straws stuck up his nose...}
I can't believe I have been at this all day. its a good thing I LOVE FR and D&D lore. 
Several times in the past few weeks I've had to take giant steps backward and rethink stuff, and sometimes, in the end, it leads to even better, new homebrew. For instance, I was toying with Titania being a child of Corellon's, rather than his mom (as I had it before), but now I am thinking the closest I will relate them is that he is her 'uncle', sort of (since primordial Gods/Estelar don't really have familial relations). I've always said Titania (and her sister, who we no know was Auril) were daughters of Danu, who went to the Feywild and created Faerie out of her own being (so Faerie itself is sentient, sort of... she's not really coherent in this state), just so the Fey had a place to flee to. Basically, this makes Faerie in the Feywild the equivalent to Ravenloft in the Shadowfell (that part is stuff I've had for quite awhile).
Anyhow, I am now picturing Danu as one of these very early Seldarine Gods (who would not have been know as either 'Seldarine' or 'Gods' at that point). In fact, my thoughts now are that the Seldarine were really a group of tasked primal spirits. Pale Knight may have been another (thus, perhaps, these 'first Gods' {Estelar} may have actually been Obyriths). The task? To create 'the Race of Destiny', and they created the Fey (mostly Gruumsh and Corellon, but all helped, which is why Fey are so varied). THE High God had tasked various groups and entities to create races devoid of divine power, and from them he would choose which would 'inherit the universe' from the Gods. The Five Creator Races were the main contenders (some beings want off and created their own). And each race was granted a blessing by an Elemental Lord, so that they would hold sway in that element.
So the Seldarine (including Danu) created the Fey, with help from Grome (Grumbor in The Realms), and they nurtured these children, but there was a falling out - the Seelie offspring of Corellon and his Seldarine versus the Unseelie brood of Gruumsh and his followers (who would become the first of the anti-Seldarine), and Gruumsh took his and left the lands of the Seldarine behind, so that his people might thrive in the 'wild places' of the world. Pale Night brought forth two children of her own, both representing different aspects of her nature - one a symbol of magical, silvery 'twilight' of the Night - Selūne - and the other, a beautiful elfen woman who's pitch black skin represnted the darkest night. Selūne was the elder, and she went to seek her father, Erebus, who guards the edge of reality. The younger sister, Araushnee, was brought before the Seldarine, who loved her immediately. Danu's daughters were quite taken with the girl, and took her under their wing. Titania taught her to sew, and she spun beautiful tapestries from gold. Tapestries that could tell of events that have yet to happen. And she taught her how to apply her womanly charms, which she also mastered quite well. Auril (what is her full, original name? I can't seem to find it ATM) taught her magic, and how to 'delve deep' into the secrets of the world. How to find all the secret places and be adventurous. It wasn't until much later when Auraushnee seduced Corellon and turned on the Seldarine that they realized their folly.
Selūne returned from her father's realm a different person. The once happy girl was now prone to violent mood swings. Corellon looked into the girl's heart and saw that there was a corruption festering there, which was caused by an item she had gotten while away - a massive Black Diamond (Shard of Evil). Not wanting to touch the thing himself, he ask of Grumbor for aid, and the elemental lord was able to safely remove the gemstone from her person, and hid it deep within the First World. And there is stayed, for a time, until the dwarves found it and brought it back forth, gifting it to Auril in their ignorance (the dwarves themselves had become tainted, although none new it at the time. They went back to their mines and slowly became the first Xorn. Auril's mind became broken, and she used her own power and that of the Evil Shard to corrupt all the land for miles around, forcing the Fey to flee their homeland of Ladinion. And so the Queen of Air & Darkness was born.
And then the unthinkable happened - the primordials rebelled against the Gods, cast down the Lattice of heaven, and dealt a mortal blow to Ymir, 'the firmament'. A great war was fought, and while some old rivals set aside their differences to battle at each other's side (as did Gruumsh and Corellon, Tiamat and Bahamut, etc), some Elder Gods had been similarly corrupted as Selūne had been - Tharizdun and Erak-Hus, among others. Allthough the forces of 'good' won the day (some scholars believe it was more like centuries), great were the losses, and many 'went missing'. Gaea the Earthmother had thrown herself atop her dying brother and husband Ymir, and merged her essence with his, for if the firmament was lost, all would be for nought. The forces involved in two Sidereal joining like that tore the universe asunder, but each small fragment would grow anew, into a new world life could thrive upon, for such was Gaea's dominion - life, itself. She gave life back to the dying earth, and in so doing she fell comatose, and fragmented as well. Ymir the world serpent shattered into a thousand thousand crystal spheres, with new worlds forming within. But the heart of Ymir was still dead - the rot unable to heal. This became Atropal, the world born dead. Just one of many such wretched beings created by the Dawn War, and labeled 'Elder Evils'.
Some time after, the Godswar happened - all the powers of the universe were quick to blame the others for what happened. Some merely went their own ways. Others formed into factions (pantheons). Brother turned on brother, and sister turned on sister. Asmodeus, chief among the warrior-celestials created for the Dawn War was the only being that seemed to profit by the ongoing horrors. With this new conflict many were the prisoners taken, and he was granted dominion over the region where the Ancient power Ahriman fell in the Dawn War (together with Jazirian, they managed to salvage a piece of the Lattice of Heaven and create the Great Wheel). Soon the new 'cosmic prison' of the planes was complete, and it was dubbed Baator by its lord. too numerous were the elementals that had been corrupted in the wars, and they were given their own region - a piece of the elemental chaos was sheared-off and the Abyss was created just for them, and like Baator, none were allowed to leave, unless called forth.
Like the Dawn War before it, the Godswar ended. The universe had just become too fragmented for any one power to exert lasting control over it. The Gods instead were busying themselves with claiming dominion over as many of the new crystal spheres as they could. Many more were 'locked away' inside the worlds they tried to take as their own. And in one Sphere, poor crazy Selūne played with her 'sister' - that piece of her mind that remained corrupted even after the Black Shard was removed from her person. The newly-formed world below called out to her, and begged her for warmth (for each world had its own fragment of the earthmother, Gaea, and this one was called Jannath, or Chauntea). And when Selūne tried to give the world warmth by lighting a moon afire, her 'other self' destroyed it. She then tried to destroy the world itself, but Selūne stopped her, knowing their power was still connected, she tore it free from her own body, thus denying her 'evil twin' access to it as well. She threw the power down into the world, to keep the dark Shard of her soul from taking it back, and the two continued to fight, while the world roiled in agony.
This is where Ao stepped in, and separated the sisters, and the world. Unbenowst to most, that world - that fragment of the First World - contained the lost homeland of the Fey, and was also the battleground for the Dawn War. Ao and the universe could little afford to allow some of the sleeping atrocities to reawaken, and so he became its special protector. The power that was Selūne's (and Shaar's), was still trapped within the world where Selūne had flung it, and it was reacting with the residual energies of both Gaea (the Unicorn) and Ymir (the Lion) that fragment contained, so he fashioned a new guardian of the power - Mystryl. Most of the Fey were gone, having fled before the Sundering, but the world still contained many of the other Creatori who yet lived. He bade his new instrument Mystryl to care for them, and make them powerful, so that they may yet survive. And she took to her charge diligently... even when the elves began to arrive a few year later. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Oct 2017 22:07:41 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 22:06:07
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Lol - no comments?
Sorry, that was MUCH longer than I anticipated, and thats even the abridged version of what was going on in my head (I've covered other stuff - like where Shar went and what happened - elsewhere... although I'd factor-in a little of the 4e lore at this point, like the involvement of the Spellweavers).
Anyway, I am picturing an on-going conflict, wherein many Gods who did not get along for some time were suddenly forced to work together to stop this threat (the corrupting influence the far realms was having on many beings, most especially those that were of a more purely elemental nature), and then immediately following their Pyrrhic victory, they began to squabble amongst themselves. Thus, the Dawn War segued into the Godswar, which only ended when the parties involved realized that the gods who had not taken sides were 'gobbling up' all the Crystal Spheres for themselves (so the Godswar really should be called 'The God Wars', since it was a series of battles fought between entirely different parties in different places all over the cosmos, over an extended period of time). In fact, some Sages might (rightfully) say the Godswar never truly ended - that many of these beings still work against each other, just by subtler methods.
The War of Light & Darkness is often thought of as its own, separate thing, and at other times, its wrongfully considered part of the Dawn War (which is when True Death actually came into existence), and in some ways both might be true, but in reality, it was more like the final battle of the (overt) Godswar. The seeds for the conflict were planted just before the Dawn War, however, and thats why two, or all three, are often grouped together. It was a series of events, and if the Dawn War hadn't happened, the Godswar may not have happened (although one might assume many of those grudge-bearing gods would have eventually fought anyway).
And it all started when the Obyriths tried to push a shard of pure evil into the D&Dverse. the only difference, at this point, between my homebrew version and that is that I say the universe the Obyriths came from was the 'BEFOREverse' - the one that preceded the current universe, which was basically just a cosmic soup (the Ginnungagap - just an endless void of darkness - which held the proto-matter - the 'soup'). When the new universe was born from the soup (elemental chaos), it 'pushed outward' from its center, thus creating the ever-expanding universe we know. The beings that already lived there - the 'aberrations' that had evolved on their own, or with the help of powerful beings who had also evolved independently in the Chaos - were not very fond of this new 'order' that was being forced onto their universe. The fear was that eventually, even infinity would run out, and the whole of everything would be filled with this abomination (a universe of laws, governing such things as physics, etc). So in other words, I've lumped the Obyriths in with the Elder evils (some, anyway), and the aberrations, and say this 'other universe' was the BEFOREverse.
So even though we think of all those beings as 'evil', the fact is, they think the same of us. WE are the invaders (from within). They consider our universe a cancer. For the first time in existence, many of these disparate creatures and groups were forced to work together, and it was the most powerful - the Obyriths - who had the plan for the Shard of Pure Evil (this is canon now), and were helped by the others, like the Beholders, Illithids, and Aboleths (Phaerimm are a product of THIS {D&D} universe - maggots that had formed immediately in the decaying flesh of the First World). The Shard isn't evil to them - its a piece of Pure Chaos (Xaos) that has been refined into the form of a large black gem (much the way pressure creates diamonds from coal).
Spellweavers are a pain - I never liked them, but since there is a lot of canon now revolving around their involvement in early history I have to keep all that. Not sure how I want to spin them yet - as a naturally evolved race, as per 'folklore canon' (which would actually make them closer to the very beings they were working to thwart), or something that was created/enhanced by some other early power. It may have even been another being from the Far Realms (the remained of the BEFOREverse) even - I have to think about it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Oct 2017 22:17:23 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2017 : 02:35:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't know where I got his 'History of the Nentir Vale' - probably from the Piazza (Found it here).
Although technically a 'fan work', its entirely based on all the canon from 4e, which is spread all through out the 4e products. What he did was put it all neatly in one place (and an amazing job he did on it as well).
Not only were Gruumsh and Corellon involved in the Dawn War, there is some inference that it may have been started by the Seldarine. That puts the existence of the Seldarine WELL BEFORE the creation of the Fey... which is just plain weird to me. I can't have them as ascended fey if they predated the fey.
This is why my thinking now is that Elves are just 'lesser fey'. They aren't a separate race at all, and the more I think about it, that's really how it should be - they were one of the 'created' by the Fey Creator race. Edit: Looking though older threads since I wrote this, I realize I've had this same thought before, but my mind always goes back to separating the two. Yet, the Elven gods must have created the Fey first, which means the Seldarine really were the FIRST Fey pantheon (back before pantheons were probably even 'a thing'.) the Eladrin weren't the 'wayward children', the elves were, and even that makes sense, now that I think about it. The elves are the ones who followed the 'fey powers', which were the fey pantheon, which must have been the first ascended (arch)fey. The elves turned from the Seldarine to follow the Gods of their own making. In 4e terms, this means the fey gods were deities*, whereas the Seldarine were Estelar - Gods that preexisted the 'mortal races' (which is also a misnomer, because nothing was 'mortal' back then).
Or in other words, the Seldarine (some of them, at any rate) were 'primal Gods', from the beginning of creation. 4e says as much. That part most of us probably have no problem with. What bothers me is that is sticks the 'Fey Pantheon' in a secondary position to the Elven one - they are an adjunct to the older pantheon. I can still work with all of this, but it makes it a lot more convoluted. The Seldarine create the Fey. The Fey create the Elves (lesser fey).
Well, I've never thought of the Seldarine as ascended Archfey lol. I'll read through the Nentir Vale stuff and see what I get out of it, but I've said before it makes sense the Sledarine (and other deities) existed "in the beginning". And I don't mean THE BEGINNING, but before the "mortal" (use that term how you see fit) races, and that the Fey Pantheon and the Seldarine have always been separate pantheons. I think it allows for more complexity and variety, while at the same time keeps it more concise, because you aren't trying to make X and Y god the same deity. Rather, you simply allow them to be separate entities, and one may or may not have existed before the other. This allows for a diversity of pantheons, and saves us some headaches, IMO. Again, though, I will have to read through everything (I wish I had more time to devote to lore, but I don't lol, so my thoughts aren't nearly as detailed as some of the scribes here).
It makes some sense that the elves are a "lesser fey", especially if you take the 4E usage of eladrin to mean sun elf, elves from Faerie/Feywild, and the "elf angels". I personally never liked the use of this term for sun elves--I think it just made things confusing, but maybe they did that because the sun elves came from Faerie. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2017 : 07:43:45
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I'm starting to realize that they used 'Eladrin' because it was a pretty cool term, and already in use for something similar they were going for - a combination 'High-Elf'/Fey. They decided that the common garden(wood)-variety elves were just plain 'elves'(so no more having to slap Sylvan/Green on them). The former 'High Elves' (Gold & Silver, Sun & Moon, or Gray and 'High' {depending upon the world and/or edition} with the annoying Mithril/Star elves thrown in) got merged with both the Fey and Eladrin, and all of them are just called 'Eladrin' now (note I say 'Fey', as in the stately 'High {noble} Fey {sometimes referred to as Sidhe, or LeShay}, as opposed to the common - usually smaller - 'fey'). You can see just by that insanely convoluted sentence I just typed how confusing it all was, because we were using the same terms to describe different things, and we've most certainly had two main races of elves since the beginning, and instead we've been strapped to that silly 'sub-race' notion (which is just ethnicity, and shouldn't be called a 'race' at all).
So the Fey and the elves are basically the same race, but rather than saying lesser' or 'greater' fey/Elves, they just gave us Elves and Eladrin in 4e, and even though that steps on some older lore regarding the old-school eldarin, I say, "Not really" - those were just epic-tier versions of Eladrin. It really is simpler now - one race with two major offshoots. Not everything 4e did was so terrible - we just hated it so much we wanted to hate every single thing it changed.
So the Gold, Silver, and Mithril are all Eladrin (and Fey), and mostly dwell in the Feywild, or close enough to Fey Crossings so they can still access Faerie easily, and all the other elves - including dark elves - are just 'Elves' now (which is really what they always were - all those others were really just offshoots of the Green/Sylvan/Wood main branch). Lythari are just special Elves with shapeshifting. Drow are just cursed dark Elves. Sea Elves are just elves who can breath water... although what happens when an Eladrin wants to become a Sea Elf? Does its race change?
And what about Drow High Elves? Weren't there any? Or were ALL dark elves just Elves? Then what was Araushnee? She couldn't have been eladrin (unless she just had a really great tan). I think there may have been one branch of the Eladrin/Fey that were 'dark' (probably Pale Night's brood, if we go with my musings). Personally I prefer how I spun things in my purely homebrew world - there are three main groups (none like the traditional D&D ones), and none of them like being called 'elves', which they feel is a derogatory human term.
And lastly, that means there really isn't a 'fey pantheon' and a 'elven' one - there should just be the seldarine, which should include both at this point. The Fey powers are really just archfey, anyway, but the greatest of them should be accepted as equals (since there are one or two cases of common elves becoming Seldarine, I can't see why Eladrin/Fey can't, when they are supposed to be 'a step above'). Also, some Seldarine/Fey powers should have worked their way into other pantheons, as themselves, or with aliases (there is at least one canon case of that I can think of off the top of my head). I can see a few Celtic powers having been (former?) fey/elf powers. At least three Norse Gods are (The Vanir).
And by finally completely merging the two (as it always should have been), we also now get to say the the elves are, indeed, one of the Creator Races.
*Spirit-Folk become slightly more complicated, but not really; they are just half-elves where one parent was a 'True Fey' (Eladrin). That's why they are so much more rare. They're just first-generation Fey-Touched. I don't know if 5e has rules for such things (yet), but I'd just use half-elf stats and then give them a bloodline Feat (the ability to detect - and use - Fey Crossings at will). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2017 03:28:32 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2017 : 15:25:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm starting to realize that they used 'Eladrin' because it was a pretty cool term, and already in use for something similar they were going for - a combination 'High-Elf'/Fey.
They said this directly, in fact, in the preview books of 4e. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 18 Oct 2017 15:25:45 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2017 : 16:41:40
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The main reason I disliked the wide use of the term eladrin was because it added confusion. You had three different types of eladrin. I remember the eladrin (he was from the Feywild) from the Abyssal Plague books.
Of course, most of the 4e novels, if I remember correctly, rarely used eladrin to refer to sun elves. They were still just called elves. There may have been a few instances, but I think it was more differentiated in the sourcebooks.
It wasn't terrible (minor compared to some of the other things 4e did XD), just a bit annoying. I guess 'eladrin' becomes contextual, and you determine the "type" of eladrin based on what is being discussed. Though that could get confusing, too, if there were a sentence like this: "Arvandor is home to the Seldarine, the eladrin, and eladrin and elf practioners". XD
Anyway, I guess the usage makes sense now, especially with the way Markustay explained it, but for a while it was a bit annoying LOL. I can see how they were trying to simplify it (which was really what 4e was about--an attempt to simplify the setting). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 18 Oct 2017 16:46:38 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2017 : 03:48:15
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Yeah, in order to say 'Fey' (the tall, majestic beings of folklore, not the 'wee folk') we had to jump through hoops, and say 'Fey Creator race', or LeShay (which wasn't quite right, because that would be specifically an epic-tier Fey). So now we want to talk about Faeries (Fey), we just say 'Eladrin' - thats the Fey race D&D has been missing for a very long time.
And it doesn't step on old lore that much, as I explained above - the 'epic level' ones have other powers and abilities, like wings. Ones like that that served gods would be our old-school Eladrin, and the ones who could care less about Gods are the LeShay. I think even dragonborn got an option for wings at the epic tier (can anyone say 'Draconian'?)
It sounds more complicated then it is, but thats because of the complete mess (regarding Fey/Faeries) that we've had since the beginning of D&D. The had to give us some structure finally, and that meant stepping on some lore.
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One last thing - in my Elves of Faerūn Netbook article on the Snow Elves, I hinted at Huldrafolk (Huldufólk), which have tails. My thinking there (if you figure it out by reading all three stories in the article) is that Huldra are an offshoot of Lythari - they become 'winter wolves'. They also have a hybrid form, which Lythari lack, and they tend to use this form when not dealing with outsiders, but still having need of hands (so from a distance, an outsider might think they are seeing a tail on a normal elf - they might think the fur is clothing). I envisioned an Oriental (Adventures) version of them as well, living in the Ama Basin (far northern kara-Tur) who are somewaht more 'catlike' (their tails would be similar to a lions). There was a long-lost race there that was hinted at (in canon) as perhaps being 'spiritfolk' - which ARE K-T's elves - called the 'Maraloi' (that part's canon). I had some lore to go with that, based around an Archfey named Amara (hence both the name of the Basin - Ama - and the name of the race - Maraloi. I would assume 'loi' in Shou would almost be like the suffix '-ling' in English (and that 'Tas' would mean 'jungle' in either a Shou dialect, or Malatran; thus, 'Tasloi', or 'jungleling'). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2017 20:24:00 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2017 : 12:13:51
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| I definitely agree on the concept of the Obyrith as the "elder evils" and I suspect that they came to the abyss from the far realm. They have the look and feel of aberrations for the most part. In fact, I was thinking that before I saw your sentences above, and I half suspect so were the writers who came up with the obyrith. Their exact involvement, not sure. Throw in the fact that in canon, Dagon is an obyrith, and also Dagon is big in Cthulhu Mythos. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 19 Oct 2017 12:16:08 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2017 : 21:03:11
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You know what weird? In 4e (you really need to read ZeromaruX's insanely good synopsis of the 4e lore) they created an truly massive, ancient primordial named Lormoch, 'the master of tides', who just screams "Dagon". However, since D&D already used the name 'Dagon' for a demon lord, they had to come up with something else for real Dagon. LOL
I think they may have been going for Cthulhu with Bryakus, a similar 'many tentacled' being that dwarfed stars. I like the concept, but I'd have him be a different member of the Elder Gods (Cthulhu Cycle beings), because I prefer Cthulhu the way Lovecraft wrote him, not as modern media portrays him - he was a high-priest of a TRULY ancient power (like this guy Byrakus, but thats a D&D thing, so he may have meant for it to be Hastur, "he who should not be named". I wouldn't say Byrakus is Hastur anyway, since Hastur was more reptilian than octopoidal. Byrakus appears to be something closer akin to Azathoth, and there are others in 4e lore that definitely sound like they were inspired by other 'Lovecraftian horrors'.
As for the Obyriths, I am starting to see them almost like the Elderverse's (I didn't like 'BEFOREverse lol) Gods - the last of them, that were trying to save whatever they could as they saw their universe collapsing. And perhaps they were successful, to a degree. They wanted to stop the New Universe from expanding within 'their' space, and by pushing the 'Fragment of Pure Evil' (note that it was named that by guys on this side of the boundary, so its all a matter of perspective) into D&Dspace, they manage to corrupt the whole process, and slow it down, and now whats left of the Elderverse is The Far Realms. Thus, its fairly easy to marry the Obyrith lore to the far realms stuff (why have two other universe messing with us?). And BTW, I picture The Far Realms very much like Fluidic Space from Star Trek - a completely different plane of reality (not just another 'Quantum Universe'). Instead of empty space between worlds and stuff, they have a liquid-like medium, and I think that fits the concepts of aberrations perfectly (aboleths and tentacled things).
So I am no longer seeing the Obyriths as actually 'evil' - more 'amoral', because they are completely alien, and they are just trying to survive (and perhaps save as many of the aberrational species as they can in the process). I can also see some of them - like Pale Night - trying to work with the new powers in this universe, so some of them might be (partial) progenitors of some of the races we have. This is why I think Pale knight could possibly have been working with the Seldarine (her name certainly sounds like a member of a faery court). Dagon would also make an excellent Obyrith that helped with the creation of the new universe (so all these 'Elder gods' could have been acting like they were assistng with the endeavors of the Gods (Esteler & Primordials), when in fact they all had their won agenda, and some of them might have actually been helpful, and some of them may have been working against others of their own kind ('old grudges/rivalries').
That would mean in The Beginning, immediately following the "let there be light!" moment of sentience, and the creation of the Sidereals (the sentience of concepts - basically, the planes themselves), the next group of beings to come into play would be the Obyriths, who may have even preceded the Estelar and Primordials in the D&Dverse. 'Estelar' ('old gods') would have come about from further concepts born of the sidereals (so we are really talking about 'spontaneously came into being out of need within the new reality'), while the Primordials are the first of the 'tasked elementals' - creatures created from the stuff of the new universe (energy & matter), rather then just 'ideas incarnate' like the Estelar. Since the primordials are all 'tasked' (basically, 'workers'), they would have had a secondary role to the Estelar, and they may have begun to resent their almost slave-like status (because of the 'dark whispers' of the Obyriths).
The 'Shard of Pure Evil', in fact, may have just been a distraction. Thats a pretty heavy-handed 'sledgehammer'-like way of doing things, when demonic entities tend to be subtler with their machinations. Their whole gig is to cause contention amongst the 'uber-powers' of this universe, in order to get it to destroy itself. However, Not all the Obyriths might still be on board with that - some of them probably like the new piece of the pie they've carved for themselves. In fact, the aberrations might all just be pwns in their 'great game' (same as how our 'Gods' feel about mortals). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2017 21:06:30 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 07:42:23
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I posted here earlier and didn't even say what i intended to say, but now I've said that somewhere else (that the concept of male/Female genders is another thing that didn't come about until after the 'wars in the heavens')
Which is what I am posting about now - those wars. I think The Lattice of Heaven was shattered during the Dawn War (Estelar against primordials, for the most part), but the Sundering of the First world didn't happen until the Godswar, when the recently victorious Gods fought over the spoils (not really, it was more like a mass blame-casting and ancient rivalries coming to a head). Thus, the worst part of the conflicts (in mortal minds) didn't even have anything to do with the Primordials; the warring gods did far more damage to the world itself. Gods just falsely blame the Primordials for everything that happened (they only started the ball rolling, as it were).
So, when the Lattice of Heaven got shattered, Jazirian and Ahriman rushed to save what they could, and by flying in circles, tails in mouths (the Ouroboros), they managed to pull together what they could and create the Great Wheel (which makes perfect sense, since the LoH was designed to interconnect all the Godly Realms, which is precisely what the Wheel does). Unfortunately, the Material plane (Ymir) could not be reconnected, since the war was still raging there. Only the outer Plane was brought together in this manner. And thus being exhausted, the twin Elder powers sank down into a deep sleep (their subconscious minds are still capable of sending forth 'ghostly' aspects of themselves). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Oct 2017 07:45:02 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 09:17:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which is what I am posting about now - those wars. I think The Lattice of Heaven was shattered during the Dawn War (Estelar against primordials, for the most part), but the Sundering of the First world didn't happen until the Godswar, when the recently victorious Gods fought over the spoils (not really, it was more like a mass blame-casting and ancient rivalries coming to a head). Thus, the worst part of the conflicts (in mortal minds) didn't even have anything to do with the Primordials; the warring gods did far more damage to the world itself. Gods just falsely blame the Primordials for everything that happened (they only started the ball rolling, as it were).
This is the main reason the Primal Spirits said "f*ck off!" and created the Primal Ban (an existencial barrier that bars both gods and primordials to enter the mortal world in the Nerath world) and the end of the War of Winter. If that would have happened in the Realms, there were no gods going up and down in the history of Toril,  |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 Oct 2017 09:18:36 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 12:10:00
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As promised in the other topic, here is a list of pre-Dawn War gods mentioned in 4e.
And yes, only 4e edition, for two reasons:
1. My field of expertise. I'm not so knowledgeable in pre-4e lore.
2. The Dawn War is a 4e stuff.
Something to take into account: mortals already existed before the Dawn War (in a primitive state), as there are many accounts in 4e canon that mortals did participate in the war, and in Athas, the war happened before and during the Green Age. The Dawn War happened in Abeir-Toril after the creations of the planets but before the Blue Age, so potentially Chauntea already existed and had create life as well.
Dawn War pantheon
Achra (Bane): According to goblin myths, he is one of the first gods, brother of Kord and Tuern (DR372, p.26). Other myths state that he was a mortal who ascended to godhood, however. (DP, p.40; SotAS, p.51)
Avandra: She was around when humans were created, so way before the Dawn started. (MV, p.288) Notice, the 5e DMG says that she is Tyche (both a greek goddess and a Netherese dead goddess).
Corellon Larethian: He was born way before the Dawn War, as he was one of the gods who created the Lattice of Heaven (SotAS, p.6, 61), and he took no part in the Dawn War until the late years, but got the credit as one of the greatest champions in the war. Gruumsh always hated him for that. (DR408, p.6)
Erathis: She was the one of the gods who created the Lattice of Heaven (SotAS, p.6, 61), and she was who taught laws to the first mortals, so she was there way before the Dawn War. (DR402, p.24) 5e DMG says she is actually Athena (another greek goddess here).
Gruumsh: He fought in the Dawn War since the beginning, and got the short end of the stick, cuz everyone loved Corellon and none acclaimed Gruumsh victories. (DR408, p.6) That was because he was too chaotic and unreliable, though. (SotAS, p.32; DR372, p.26)
Ioun: She was there with Pelor when Tharizdun opened the Living Gate, and learned of the "Shard of Pure Evil". So, way, waaay before the Dawn War. (PHB3, p.4)
Kord: Brother of Achra (Bane) and Tuern, (DR372, p.25) and son of Khala (and potentially, son of Zehir, as he was the lover of Khala) (DP, p.40, 67) He fought in the first battle of the war (to recover the Rune of Stone Eternal (DR394, p.53)), so he predates the Dawn War.
Lolth: According to some myths, she was the sister of Corellon (HotF, p.4), so she predates the Dawn War. Also, pre-4e lore states that she was his first wife, so...
Melora: The only source that states that she did something prior to the Dawn War is the one of the origins of werewolves (DR410, p.5), but other legends states that the werewolves were created by Nerull or the Primal Beast, so... however, she created the halflings alongside with Sehanine (DR384, p.70; SotAS, p.38), so, she may have been around sometime before the war.
Moradin: The guy crafted the Sun (Dungeon Master's Kit, p.56) and was one of the creators of the Lattice of Heaven (SotAS, p.6, 61) and the maruts (SotAS, p.32, 98). Nuff said.
Pelor: See Ioun.
Sehanine Moonbow/Angharradh: See Lolth.
Tharizdun: See Ioun.
Torog: He helped Amoth, Tuern and Moradin with the creation of the maruts (SotAS, p.32, 98), and fought Gargash prior to the Dawn War (UD, p.7), so...
Zehir: See Kord. Also, he is stated to be unable to create his own mortal race and wanted the humans (MV, p.288), so he is old. Stated to be Set in the 5e DMG.
Dead:
Amoth: Alongside Tuern and Moradin created the maruts. This happened before the Dawn War. (SotAS, p.32, 98) Killed by Demogorgon and Orcus in the Dawn War. (DP, p.40; MM2, p.44)
Aurom: A deity of many portfolios, slain by a mortal Nerull during the Dawn War (who used Aurom's divinity to ascend to godhood) (Dr390, p.46; DR427, p.10), so must have existed before the war.
Deity of magic and prescience: Parent of Corellon and Gruumsh (and potentially, Lolth and Sehanineand so of Angharradh as well (HotF, p.4)). Died way before the Dawn War. (DR408, p.6)
The God of the Word: Died in the Dawn War, must have existed before (SotAS p.119)
Gorellik: Creator of the gnolls and the patron of hunting, beasts, and the wild. Killed by Yeenoghu in the Dawn War (DR364, p.10), so must have existed before.
Haramanthur: The Eternal Watcher, he much like Helm. He was tasked to protect the Astral Sea before the war (DR390, p.46), so he must have existed before. He "died" during the war (his essence survives in the sacred rock that seals a breach between the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos).
He Who Was: The unknown patron of humankind, existed way before the war. Slain by Asmodeus in the Dawn War, thought some blame Zehir or a primordial of the deed. (PHB, p.47; R&C, p.22; DP, p.40; DR427, p.12)
Io: God of all dragons, existed way before the Dawn War. Killed by Erek-Hus, who cut Io in twain and split him into Tiamat and Bahamut. Some believe Zehir betrayed Io to the primordials. (DP, p.40) Then, we have the Asgorath conundrum (because both Cult of the Dragon (2e) and Ed confirmed me that Io = Asgorath, and Asgorath is alive and well).
Khala: Original goddess of winter and mother of Kord, nuff' said. (DP, p.40) She was killed in the War of Winter (after the Dawn War) by the Raven Queen. (DP, p.67)
Lakal: The living astral dominion of the quom, she existed since Creation. Accidentally killed by Bahamut in the Dawn War (SotAS p.101)
The One in the Void: A forgotten god whose corpse floating in the Astral Sea was used by the githyanki to build their city, Tunarath. They found him during the Dawn War, meaning he was around for some time (DU168, p.30; MotP, p.111)
Tuern: The fire god of conquest. He was pretty unruly and incompetent. Goblin myths has that he was Achra (Bane) and Kord's brother (DR372, p.25), though the myths of mortal Bane say they are unrelated. (DP, p.40; SotAS, p.51) Helped Amoth, Moradin and Torog to create the maruts (SotAS, p.32, 98). He was killed by Bane either during the Dawn War (mortal Bane ascended to godhood after killing him (DP, p.40; SotAS, p.51)), or after the Dawn War, when Bane wanted revenge for all of his incompetence during the war. (DR372, p.27)
An unknown god of shadows and secrets from whose flesh the primordial Balcoth forged a mask during the war (DU178, p.85), so must have existed before.
The rest of the gods not mentioned here were born after or during the Dawn War, or there is no way to place their births in the timeline.
Notice that the other gods in the Seldarine, the Morndinsamman and the draconic pantheon (sans Bahamut and Tiamat) seem to be ascended mortals.
Abeir-Toril's pantheon
Only Shar and Selūne are mentioned to exist before the Dawn War. And, as hypothesized before, potentially Chauntea as well. The FRGC (p.42) states that the rest of the gods were either summoned from other worlds or born from the conflict.
Athasian pantheon
The DSCS (p.5) mentions that there were gods in Athas that were either all wiped out and the survivors (if any) were driven away during the war. The athasian front of the Dawn War was won by the primordials. Its stated that this eventually led to the downfall of Athas: with no gods, arcane magic in that world was flawed, and Rajaat took advantage of this flaw to create defiling magic (p.208).
No godly names given, though.
Eberron pantheon
There is no mention of the Dawn War happening in Eberron, but we know Eberron is the black sheep of the family There is the potential that the gods there aren't even real.
Now, tinfoil time.
Melora. She is pretty much a later addition to the Dawn War pantheon (either in-universe and IRL: the legend of the creation of the halflings in Races and Classes says that the creators were Obad-Hai and Sehanine). So, perhaps Melora is an aspect of Obad-Hai (a gender bend) or perhaps a more wild aspect of Chauntea (both goddesses represent the Gaia archetype, but Melora is less civilized).
Also, seeing that both Erathis (Athena) and Avandra (Tyche) are pre-Dawn War, that would mean that the whole Greek pantheon is old. Set there also implies the same for the Egyptians.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, an article in Dragon 412 says that Erathis and Melora are equivalent in dogma and stuff to Chauntea and Silvanus. So, perhaps Melora is related to Silvanus. How old is Sylvanus? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 Oct 2017 12:35:09 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 19:42:04
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Actually, I'm GLAD it says mortals existed before the Dawn War - in FR lore, the 'Creator Races' (can we just start using Creatori already?) were around before the First world was destroyed. And since I now realize there was at least a little bit of time (whats 'a little bit' on a cosmic scale? 10 minutes? 40 million years?) between that and the Godswar (when the world was actually Sundered/Destroyed), that means Ur-mortals had some time to develop before being 'nuked back into the Stoneage'. Thats when I theorize the Blackmoor civilization arose among the humans, the Altrusians among the Sauroids (a caste system based on different types, with the Sarrukh at the top), Ladinion for the Eladrin (Fey), The Demesnes of the Batrachi (A loose republic of allied realms, the main one of which was R'lyeh), and the 'Cloudstates of the Aearee' (basically, flying citystates).
Sylvanus should be 'there from the beginning', and in RW folklore he is actually an amalgam of a bunch of Celtic nature-deities that the Romans rolled-together (so he is a RW 'archtype', thus we make him a D&D archtype, which I am now thinking ALL Estelar are). And since those 'Gods before the gods' were asexual (androgynous), the 'he' and 'she' thing really doesn't matter.
Ioun is another I have trouble with - he was a male archwizard in FR, and he was also in GH (although I'm not sure if gender was ever specified - he was part of Oerth's history). the simplest solution is to just say it is revered amongst 'learned types' on many worlds, and the name is used for both sexes in homage to the original entity (which neatly solves the whole dilemma of which world he/she was from, after all these years).
Erathis as Athena AND Chauntea really doesn't work for me, but if we just say those two are aspects of the Erathis archtype, that might work. In my newest hypothesis, ALL Estelar are 'archtypes', and all would have had aspects in each Crystal Sphere (in the beginning, when the spheres were formed - many may have 'died off' by now). Archtype aspects may be known under their real name, or an alias (in reality, they are all 'real names' - humans probably couldn't even pronounce what they call themselves).
For example, we have the Set archtype. He was Set on Earth (and in the Hyborian Age), and he was Zehir in The Realms. When the worlds were separated, Zehir was forced to go to Abeir (although he was constantly trying to sneak back onto Toril by various means). Then the Earth-Set gets a call from Ptah and he says, "you guys better come quick! Timmy fell down the well!" (okay... maybe not exactly that... ). By that time, Earth had developed its own Egyptian Pantheon, which is a world-specific aspect of the Pharonic one, so some of the gods did like the sources said and shed a single avatar (aspect), but in the case of certain others, like set, Baast, and probably Ra, they just 'phoned home' to the Ordial plane (there is such a thing you know... mortals just aren't suppose to know about it), and got three (or more) new aspects 'whipped up' to send to Toril.
Of course, this caused some problems. Abeir-Toril's 'Set' was still alive, just trapped on Abeir. Baast also already had an aspect of herself there (Baast is actually an ascended Beastlord, but she's become so universal that she's now an archtype as well) - Zandilar the Dancer - who had been folded into the Faerūnian Fey pantheon (Yuir Totems). The two 'made nice' and became one, giving her an immediate power-boost over her fellow interlopers. As for Ra/Re... we already had Aumanator, and both were aspects of Amun. At that point the two had become so different neither would agree to be (re)absorbed by the other, so a deal was struck (probably with Jergal as moderator) - Aumanator would take the 'Morninglord' portfolio and become Lathander, slowly over time (so as not to have an instant power-loss from his followers not finding him). he would become 'the left-hand' (Lathander) of the sun god. Ra would became Re and be the 'right hand of the sun'. For his help in negotiations, Jergal was allowed the title 'Dusk Lord', and he would rule over the 'twilight' between day and night.
later on, Zehir manages to return to Toril, and by that time (FR)Set had manage to absorb Seth, another truly ancient aspect (probably of Ahriman). the two decide to be a bipartite deity, each remaining a separate aspect of the Set archtype. In other words, its all 'Set, but an aspect of him continues to use 'Zehir' in 5e (what happened to FR Set in 4e? Did he go to Abeir? That means the two would not have to have worked any of that out until 5e). Set/Zehir's power has grown astronomically because of all of this (although one might assume - correctly - that there WILL be a schism, eventually).
Bane was also there 'at the beginning' (you have some strange, misplaced commentary about him in that thing I downloaded from you - probably a vestige of an earlier version that is still there, in the wrong place. It appears to be a footnote for something that isn't there anymore). he was 'The Bane of Existance', lord of tyrants (the Sarrukh probably loved him). Once again, various worlds got archtypes of him, sometimes under other names (*cough* Hextor *cough*). We may have lost FR's early-on in a conflict with another God (Talos? In which case, was he Kozah and/or Bhaelros?) Either way, a certain Ur-Orc (I don't want to say half-orc - there was a group of superior orcs in Vastar that may or may not have been hybrids) War-Chief of the Moonsea region rose to power, with a little help from some other deities (I forget which two ATM - one was a core deity, IIRC), and eventually becoming a god, and taking the title 'Bane' (he may have been calling himself this long before his ascension). Iyatchu Xvim had a 'shard' of this original Bane within him, and was able to supplant his father for a time, until that shard ascend itself and became Bane all over again (there is debate on whether this is old FR-Bane, Xvim acting like {or just being} Bane, or perhaps the shard 'rebooted' original archtype bane and this sis something entirely new... basically, 'Core bane' in FR). Thus, 'Bane' is almost like a Godly template. And do to the nature of this god, you can even have multiple aspects arising on the same world and challenging each there for supremacy (technically, they can ALL do that, but this bastitch revels in that). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Oct 2017 19:47:56 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 20:05:52
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Damn, sorry about the wall of text. I had intended that to be short-and-sweet. MY bad. 
As for the Olympian pantheon (known as the Greek pantheon on Earth), some were definitely there 'at the beginning'; a lot of MY - and WotC's - cosmology/mythology is now based on that stuff (Creation Myths).
The only ones we should really be concerned with are the 'Core' gods of each pantheon - the really powerful ones near the top. Guys like Zeus, Odin, Ra, etc. In fact, I may be able to get rid of my 'High God' category in the Immortals tier. I'm always trying to streamline things, but its damn hard when you are trying to incorporate EVERYTHNG.
I also have the main gods of Hinduism in there already - the three big ones (Vishnu, Brahma, and Shiva) in the 'Eternals' tier. In fact, I could probably get rid of the name and just call these guys the 'Estelar' (although everyone above the Ordial tier are technically Estelar, so maybe I'll keep it). I'd put their wives int their with them (really, just the feminine aspect of those three - once again, these beings are all androgynous), but I am still toying with the idea of making Lolth Kali (its a good fit, except for the accompanying history of both). Still trying to work-out the new genealogies for my cosmic drama. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 20:18:21
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If you can point me where is that error, I can purge it out
But Bane is quite conflicting in canon right now. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 20:31:27
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Oh, and I am staring to think that 'Seldarine' is really just a fey/Elf-specific term for the Estelar - the 'Elder Gods'. It may now mean the Elven pantheon, but thats kind of meaningless, since they've not only merged the fey one into it, but we have tons of evidence of other 'racial gods' being in other race's pantheons (and the very idea that any of these ancient beings - who predate the entire concept of 'race' - would even have a race is ludicrous).
It may also be a way of referring to a specific group of Estelar - perhaps those most concerned with 'mortal affairs' (but now I am just splitting hairs).
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
If you can point me where is that error, I can purge it out
Page 9, second paragraph - a bunch of italics at the bottom there doesn't seem to be referencing the stuff above it. There was also two spelling errors - I should have written those down - I'll try to find them.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
But Bane is quite conflicting in canon right now.
NOT when I'm done with him. 
EDIT:
is 'Deva' just the 5e (4e?) term for Aasimar now? I think I might like that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Oct 2017 18:27:40 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 21:48:41
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Deva is a specific type of Aasimar, one that is not a planetouched, but an angel (or celestial, in pre-4e terms) incarnated as a mortal. Then, you get confused with the Deva that is still an immortal angel/celestial...
Yeah, there are two kinds of devas now. Like with the eladrin. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 Oct 2017 21:49:41 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 21:49:51
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Oh, and I thought about this last night, just as I was falling asleep.
Goliaths, Firbolg, and Irda (Krynn's High Ogres) are all offshoots of the Nephilim - children of mortals and celestial giants.
I am also rethinking the Celestial Giants (Jotuns) altogether, so I am probably going to wander far-afield from D&D canon on that one. I think all of the first races (and I may even be including the Creator Races, or 'ur-mortals') were malleable, like everything else in that first world. They could literally take-on 'templates' (just like in D&D rules, except this is no longer meta-gaming), usually elemental in nature, but it could have been other things. The Jotuns would have really taken to this, hence we have 'frost' and 'fire' giants. Dragons loved it as well, hence their elemental nature. And even some other races, like dwarves becoming Azer. I'm not sure if I want that to be a 'from the beginning' thing, or something that happened as an aftermath of the Dawn War (but definitely BEFORE the Godswar). So basically, there were just Dragons, and there were just giants, and both races started life fairly small (about 3' tall), but then could grow as big as they could, for as long as they were around (there size would be an indication of their age, very much how dragons still are today). This actually eliminates the need for all different 'breeds' of giants before the Sundering, and makes them more like how they were in non-Scandanavian folklore (just 'giants', of every imaginable size), and in Glorantha (Runequest - another old favorite of mine). Thus a 'Titan' would just be a very old, powerful giant.
Later, after the Sundering, things got 'locked in' to their forms. Sadly, the closest thing to the original giants would be the hill giants (who eventually become Mountain Giants, if they live long enough). In the First world, those would just be children, like 8-10 year olds. So the next time you kill a 'stupid hill giant', think on this - its not stupid, its a child. An unevolved form because it no longer can (right around that age true giants would choose their 'path', gain a template, and become more intelligent... those CAN'T). All my homebrew, of course.
Oh, and 'hags' are actually female giants... but that part comes from my 100% homebrew setting.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Oct 2017 22:06:29 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 21:59:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Deva is a specific type of Aasimar, one that is not a planetouched, but an angel (or celestial, in pre-4e terms) incarnated as a mortal. Then, you get confused with the Deva that is still an immortal angel/celestial...
Yeah, there are two kinds of devas now. Like with the eladrin.
See, I finally like what they did with all the Eladrin stuff (now that I fully understand it), but I think they just made it more convoluted using 'angel' - we gained nothing by swapping that with celestial. Ah, well... I had considered doing much the same awhile back.
On the other hand, it does mean I CAN repurpose 'Celestial' to mean 'Outsider', which is so much better.
So the language Celestial (maybe call it Selestial?) would just be a debased form of Supernal (the language, not MY category), like the 'Common' of the heavens, and the Dark Speech would be a corrupted form of that (not to be confused with Black Speech, from Tolkien, which would be a tainted form... 'taint' and 'corruption' are different).
So Celestials speak Selestial, and fiends can speak Selestial, especially since they are now Celestials.
And if you are a fan of 4e, you used to be categorized as an 'Outsider', but now you get to be a Celestial too!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Oct 2017 22:02:45 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2017 : 01:34:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Oh, and I am staring to think that 'Seldarine' is really just a fey/Elf-specific term for the Estelar - the 'Elder Gods'. It may now mean the Elven panthoen, but thats kind of meaningless, since they've not only merged the fey one into it, but we have tons of evidence of other 'racial gods' being in other race's pantheons (and the very idea that any of these ancient beings - who predate the entire concept of 'race' - would even have a race is ludicrous).
It may also be a way of referring to a specific group of Estelar - perhaps those most concerned with 'mortal affairs' (but now I am just splitting hairs).
I think racial pantheons become the elven, gnome, dwarf, etc pantheon because they are the pantheon of that particular race, and are often the creators of said race. It goes back to the "modeled in their image". They uphold the ideals/morals of that race, and are the "mother" of that race. So of course they aren't going to start out as the elven or gnome pantheon before the mortal elves and gnomes exist, but they become so once that mortal race is created. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2017 : 18:59:01
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So why doesn't every race just look like a glob of energy/matter?
Because we are talking about beings so far above and beyond mortals - a mere one or two tiers below 'The First' - who were around long before the Prime Material plane was even a thing... so no physical bodies.
And yet, people still insist Corellon always looked like an elf. Go figure.
Corellon, Moradin, some of the 'human' gods - were all the exact same thing back then. Corellon looked no different than any of the others (unless he desired to do so, and that would have only become 'a thing' once the physical world began to take shape). I also laugh at things like 'Set was a snake', or 'Io was a dragon' - you can BE something before that something existed. The most we can say is that when these incredibly ancient beings (I am ONLY talking about ones around before the Dawn War) did start to create Ur-mortals (the races that would eventually BE mortal, but not until later), they "reflected the essence of the god itself". Of course, then we start to walk a very fine line of racism - if scaly things reflect set's 'inner self', does that mean all scaled things are automatically evil? Thats bigotry. Thats why I'd side-stepped that and say something like, "they created races in forms they personally found pleasing". Thus, Set creates races that are low-to-the-ground, even 'groveling on their bellies', because it makes him feel good about himself (so yeah, now I'm psycho-analyzing Gods again LOL).
The earliest Elven and Human (I really do HATE referring to them this way that far back) Gods had very similar outlooks and tastes, thus, elves and humans look a LOT alike. the differences are mostly cosmetic. Dwarves are a little more different, but that's because Moradin was a little more different then them (his love of artifice gave him a feel for 'efficiency', thus he would have reflected that in something 'more compact and capable'). Yondalla - if she was around back then ( still have to check that) - probably wasn't very assertive when dealing with the other Estelar, thus her race looks like there, but is smaller, and less noticeable (so I guess we needed some feminism, even back then).
Of course, I am also running into the problem of MY (homebrew) version of things having very different creations for Hin (halflings AND gnomes). Same with dwarves, but after looking at WotC did, its super-easy to reconcile the two. Then again, a race would not have myths about their creation that reflected poorly on THEM, so i can probably flub all that as well (just say, "This is what the Hin believe, but the truth of the matter is...").
And lastly, ow that I am doing a ton of research on Elves and fey in D&D (going ALL the way back to Arneson's Blackmoor and Chainmail), I think the best approach is to say that groups of gods (usually) worked together on races, and this is why you have slightly different 'models' for each (ethnicities). So if Pale Night approached the Seldarine (it was sort of like a 'private club') disguised as another Estealar ("Hey, you guys are sooo kewl... can I be in your club?"), she could have created the first few Dokkalfar (Dark Elves, or in this case, dark-skinned fey), including Araushnee. You see, I can't have Corellon creating her, because that would get just a little bit icky ("Who's daddy's good girl?" See what I mean?), and since the rest of the Seldarine have a neo-familial type relationship, I'd prefer at least one outsider to be involved there... and it doesn't hurt that that helps my homebrew lore. Besides, I am not so sure Pale Night wasn't the actual model for the Fey - whereas she came from another universe, the rest of them ('Gods') just appeared, whole-cloth, in a vacuum with no preconceptions of how physical matter should even look, let alone races of people.
Hmmmm... perhaps I can spin her as Corellon's first 'lover' (in which case, to do anything, he would have had to manifest in his very first physical form, and the only reference material he'd have for that was Pale Night herself...
I absolutely LOVE this site - its when I am discussing this stuff that ideas just grow on their own. Imagine if the Obyriths WERE the original 'Dark Elves', and that Dark Elves came first (sort of). Perhaps Pale Night looked something like this. Not all of them, mind you - some would be quite Lovecraftian - and she herself (it?) could probably take any form it wanted, so it may have just taken a form it knew Corellon would find appealing.
EDIT:
Okay, after just checking Pale Night's entry, you are correct about her being 'insubstantial', but that seems to just be a form she maintains to confuse, like how a vampire can become mist. It says "she appears as an empty flowing white shroud with the suggestion of a shapely female body underneath", so I can assume she can take a physical form of great beauty whenever she wants, and one of her forms could look very much like the pic I linked above (that could be the 'shapely female body' in the mists). It also goes on to say she takes this aspect to obscure her true form, which is something very aberrational (Lovecraftian - horrifying and ancient).
So basically, she pulled the first 'hag maneuver' on Corellon. He was probably wondering why he kept feeling tentacles... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Oct 2017 19:13:44 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2017 : 23:44:55
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The gods probably started out as balls of energy/matter, but they eventually took a form. It could be the "form they found most pleasing", or for some other reason. Perhaps they took this form, found it pleasing, and thus "modeled" their "mortal" creations/followers after that image. For whatever reason, they likely had a physical form by the time they created their "mortals".
Perhaps one of the reason the gods took physical form is because it allowed for easier interaction with one another, whether that be negotiations, fighting, taking a lover, or any other form of interaction. Sure, they could probably do this as balls of matter/energy, but it was likely easier (and perhaps more attractive to them?) to have a physical form. They could have experimented a bit before settling on a form.
Or, if we go back to the idea that multipsheric gods comes from a source (such as a ball of energy), the "Moradin ball" (LOL), could have created other "Moradins", and these Moradins look more...dwarven, shall we say? I like my idea in the previous paragraph better, but I still wanted to propose this one, since we've talked about it before.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 07:26:28
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Well, yeah, it all goes back to the 'archtypes' I've talked about numerous times before (which isn't mine - I got that from an old D&D source - probably the original Deiies & Demigods). It said that every world with elves (Fey) have a 'Corellon', and other Seldarine (above the demi-tier), but these are just 'aspects of the archtype'. I liked that a lot, way back when i first started migrating from GH to FR, because I was confused by why demi-human deities didn't just take over the universe, since they were all-pervasive.
But if we look at it like each 'archtype' (and even human gods have 'em) has to 'shed' some power each time it crates a sphere-specific aspect, and each of these aspects becomes somewhat independent of the original, then its almost like 'cloning' a god. And over time, these would start to act,and even look, different.
I'm just wondering what template they were all working off of, because when it comes right down to it, the five main PC races in D&D all look VERY 'human' (or rather, look a LOT alike, compared to some other races out there). And they all look like giants, which came first. Did they look at Annam's giants and think, "yeah, like that... but smaller"? (some setting had giants that also looked like elves and dwarves - it may have been Krynn).
I'm still working on my own 'cosmic genealogy' (trying to hook-together every single major mythos, and D&D, and even a couple of other non-D&D settings). I have to work-out the canon connections first (there were quite a few 'familial' connections in places I never expected!) before I start layering-in my own Homebrew lore. I've had to move Lolth around quite a bit in the last few years, but I think I finally know where to put her, and how to spin her. There was also a spider-primordial I have to tie to her somehow (I had an inspiration earlier, but I'm tired now, and I can't remember it). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Cosmology Theories
