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mother1219
Acolyte
26 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Mar 2004 : 19:53:55
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Instead of spamming each author's thread, I thought I'd just ask this here generally. Also, I'd be curious to see other folks opinions.
What do you think about Writer's Associations like SFWA? I scanned the list of authors on the SFWA site and saw names like Jordan, Heinlein, etc., so I know at least some popular SF/F authors are members.
What are some of the pro's and con's in your mind?
Anyone should feel free to answer. If some of the professional authors here wouldn't mind including if they have joined a group like this, or if not, why not, that would be great.
Thank you.
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History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men...Godzilla.
Go, Go Godzilla
See my silly blog: http://www.motherlove.blogspot.com/ |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2004 : 21:02:58
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quote:
Originally posted by mother1219
What do you think about Writer's Associations like SFWA? I scanned the list of authors on the SFWA site and saw names like Jordan, Heinlein, etc., so I know at least some popular SF/F authors are members.
Groups like SFWA and HWA have value, but it depends upon the group and your interests.
I was a member of SFWA some years back, but found the general attitude toward any fiction published by a game company (work-for-hire or not) to be fairly hostile. Many of the active members were happy to bash those books, and their writers, as taking space away from "real books" on the bookstore shelves.
I'm currently a member of HWA, which has a much more enlightened attitude and is led at the moment by people who focus on educating all writers to things like contract terms and the professional dangers of print-on-demand places like PublishAmerica.
On the upside, groups like HWA can provide networking opportunities and even access to benefits like health plans and the like. On the downside, all such groups can be dominated by cliques and if you're not down with the "cool kids," you might find the atmosphere less than cheerful. Some members belong because of the awards the groups give out, others because of the labor/collective action aspects. Conflicts about group mission, and bitter infighting about other matters like eligibility, can be commonplace.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
Edited by - JamesLowder on 30 Mar 2004 21:12:06 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2004 : 22:17:29
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I'm in SFWA. There have been years where I felt like I wasn't getting much benefit in exchange for my dues. But the one time I needed the organization (specifically, the Grievance Commitee) to help me collect money that was owed me, they got it for me in the blink of an eye. So now I'm inclined to think of the organization in the same way I think of an insurance policy. You ante up not because you expect to derive a great deal of tangible benefit on a regular basis, but because it will come through for you on those infrequent occasions when you do need it.
If that makes any sense.
I used to be in HWA, also, and my general impression is that writer's organizations are often helpful to novices, by providing opportunities to network and basic information about the business. Once you've been around for a while, you've already dealt with those issues, and then the organization may not seem as exciting and wonderful to you on a day-to-day basis.
Or it may, in which case, perhaps you've got a problem. It's my observation that some people get so obsessed with the internal politics and the award-giving of these organizations that it has a deleterious effect on their personalities and probably cuts into their writing time. If you do join SFWA, HWA, or whatever, don't be one of those guys. Remember that membership in the organization is simply a tool, a means to the end of having a successful writing career. It has no significance in and of itself, so don't let the tail wag the dog. |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2004 : 23:32:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I'm in SFWA. There have been years where I felt like I wasn't getting much benefit in exchange for my dues. But the one time I needed the organization (specifically, the Grievance Commitee) to help me collect money that was owed me, they got it for me in the blink of an eye.
The two times I interacted with the SFWA Grievance Committee, I got little real help. The first time they sent a letter after much prompting and did nothing to follow up. The second time (involving the Dragon CD ROM) the organization settled a grievance and declared public victory by accepting an offer from the publisher that ran completely contrary to the wishes of many of the members who had first brought the grievance. So while SFWA might have helped you, Richard, I would strongly caution anyone from counting on them as insurance in such matters.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
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dbassingthwaite
Forgotten Realms Author
Canada
64 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2004 : 00:02:06
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I'm in SFWA and would be inclined to agree with what Jim and Richard have said - writers organizations are great for those just starting out in the industry but probably of less value for people with more experience in terms of information and connections. I think they're a great way for novices to maybe get over initial awkward feelings and they do remain something of a way for writers to connect on a social/professional level (believe it or not, writing can be an intensely lonely job!).
I haven't had cause to use it, but the collective action potential of SFWA is sort of a nice thing to know about. The collective party invitation at some conventions is also a nice thing. 
I'm not in HWA (mostly because I don't consider myself a horror writer) but from what I hear it's one of the friendliest pro writer groups - ironically, horror writers tend to be real nice people.
Bias against game fiction, however, isn't just a SFWA thing - although I suspect I'm preaching to the choir on that point.
Don |
Don Bassingthwaite
www.sff.net/people/dbassing |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2004 : 00:25:38
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| Jim, I asked the SFWA Grievance Committee for help rather recently. Maybe it's gotten more effective than it was back when you belonged to the organization. Of course, it's also entirely possible that I just got lucky. |
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mother1219
Acolyte
26 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2004 : 02:20:02
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Thank you all three for responding. You've given me a lot to think about. I suppose I was thinking more of the networking benefits, but I like RLB's idea of it being a bit like insurance for writers as well.
Someone mentioned to me that membership in a group like this also often has the added benefit of making a submission to a new publisher stand out from the slush pile. Would any of you say that's true?
While I don't know if I plan to join right away, it's something I've been thinking about, so I'm very glad to have input. I just made my first pro sale (to WotC, the Realms in particular, actually) and found out that one can join SFWA as an associate (I believe was the term they used)with even just that one sale.
Thank you all for your thoughts.
On a sidenote, thank you Mr. Byers for writing your new trilogy, as there might not have been an anthology for me to be a part of without it  . |
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men...Godzilla.
Go, Go Godzilla
See my silly blog: http://www.motherlove.blogspot.com/ |
Edited by - mother1219 on 31 Mar 2004 02:23:49 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2004 : 02:43:19
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Congrats on the sale, mother1219! I'm honored to have played a teeny-tiny part in your going pro.
It's often said that editors are more likely to read a submission marked Member, SFWA (or whatever) in a timely manner, or to respond positively to such a query letter, but I don't know from first-hand experience that it's true. Maybe Jim, who's an editor his own self, will tell us if it influences his reaction. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2004 : 08:33:31
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quote:
Originally posted by mother1219
I just made my first pro sale (to WotC, the Realms in particular, actually)
Ok, spill the beans  You cant make comments like that and get away with it |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2004 : 14:22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by mother1219
I just made my first pro sale (to WotC, the Realms in particular, actually)
Congratulations!
Does SFWA membership prompt editors to give your submissions a more timely or thoughtful perusal? I've heard mixed opinions. Some insist it helps, others sneer at cover letters that point out "SFWA Member Since 1998." I incline toward the middle: SWFA membership indicates that you've made one or two professional sales. After you've been writing for a while, however, you're more likely to emphasize your work than your affiliations.
I was a member of SFWA, but left the organization for reasons Jim has already stated. I joined HWA last year in anticipation of my dark fantasy novel's release, but my involvement so far has been limited, and I can't offer an informed opinion of the group other than to comment that their email newsletter has a LOT of info, and the southern New England chapter is very active.
Back in my pre-published days, I held brief membership in RWA (Romance Writers of America.) I attended a few meetings of the Washington DC chapter, and found the atmosphere there to be the antithesis of SFWA. RWA is is a support group, fan group, and social club in one. I also attended one -- count 'em, one -- convention, sponsored by the New Jersey chapter and I can see how some people might find membership very helpful and lots of fun. But it wasn't for me. |
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mother1219
Acolyte
26 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2004 : 14:36:44
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Quoted from Rad:
quote:
Ok, spill the beans You cant make comments like that and get away with it
Rad, check out the last thing I say in my last post...where I thanked Mr. Byers. Or...just read the following quote from the link that you posted in another thread.
Quoted from the Wizards site:
quote:
In September of 2005, Kameron, Erik, and James will join a select group of even more new authors in a second volume of the Realms of the Dragons anthology. This collection will showcase eleven authors who will be making their Forgotten Realms novel debuts in 2005 and beyond.
Just call me 1 of 11. Hrm...too Borg-like?
Resistance is futile, read more Realms.
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History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men...Godzilla.
Go, Go Godzilla
See my silly blog: http://www.motherlove.blogspot.com/ |
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Murray Leeder
Forgotten Realms Author
Canada
228 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2004 : 14:42:28
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| Congratulations! My first pro sale to was to a Realms anthology as well. So, are you going to tell us your name or anything? |
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mother1219
Acolyte
26 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2004 : 16:05:03
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Quoted from Murray Leeder:
quote:
So, are you going to tell us your name or anything?
Well, since the contracts are signed and all, I suppose I may as well, eh?
*stands up and looks around the room* My name is Ed Gentry and I'll be in the Realms of the Dragons II anthology.
/endFRAAmeeting (Forgotten Realms Authors Anonymous)
I'm afraid I can't provide any details of the story (before anyone asks), as I'm still going to be tweaking it so things could change considerably. As I understand it, all eleven of the new authors are going to be tweaking their stories for a while yet, as well. When it is utterly complete and I have Phil's go ahead, I'll see what I can't do about dropping some teasers.
It's quite a feeling to be congratulated by the likes of RLB and EC, let me tell ya. Thank you.
-Ed
P.S.- Do you think it's too early to speak to Mr. Greenwood and Mr. Bolme about forming the Forgotten Realms TriEdvirate?
Of course...no matter which of the two Triumvirates we base it off of, I'm probably not in good shape. I'm either Crassus or Lepidus in this situation...neither fared very well. C'est la vie. |
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men...Godzilla.
Go, Go Godzilla
See my silly blog: http://www.motherlove.blogspot.com/ |
Edited by - mother1219 on 31 Mar 2004 16:24:02 |
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Murray Leeder
Forgotten Realms Author
Canada
228 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2004 : 16:27:15
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Well, cheers Ed. I'm in that anthology too, you know. My story "The Strength of the Jester" was slated for Realms of the Dragons 1 but has been held back so it'll be closer to my novel's release date.
Don't you have the same name as Jon Voight's character from Deliverance? |
Edited by - Murray Leeder on 31 Mar 2004 16:40:05 |
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mother1219
Acolyte
26 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 17:26:25
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I have to give you points, Murray. Believe it or not you're only like the 4th person in my life to pick up on the Deliverance character name thing. It's been years since I've seen it, but yeah, I believe it is his name as well.
Congratz on your book and the story, by the way. I enjoyed your previous short story and will be curious to see the book based on it.
Enjoy. |
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men...Godzilla.
Go, Go Godzilla
See my silly blog: http://www.motherlove.blogspot.com/ |
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Grimbones
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 19:57:25
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3 of 11, reporting for duty, sir.
Another question for the panel: where does a freelance writer go for health and dental insurance?
Sheesh. Talk about a thread killer. :) |
http://choosedeath.blogspot.com/ |
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Kameron M. Franklin
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 20:56:05
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Wohoo! Welcome, Grimbones. It's the invasion of the MoPers.
Don't know the answer to your question, but just wanted to give a "satanic monkey shout-out". |
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride |
Edited by - Kameron M. Franklin on 01 Apr 2004 21:25:16 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 22:04:28
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Grimbones: For medical insurance, I go to company that sells to private individuals and pay what feels like a lot for so-so coverage. For dental insurance, I brush and floss regularly and hope for the best.
Sorry I can't steer you to a source for good coverage at good rates. If you find one, let me know, okay? |
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Murray Leeder
Forgotten Realms Author
Canada
228 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 22:46:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Grimbones
3 of 11, reporting for duty, sir.
Another question for the panel: where does a freelance writer go for health and dental insurance?
Living in Canada works pretty well. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 23:29:41
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Lack of benefits -- health insurance, pension plans, and so on -- is one of the down sides of a freelancer's life. Unless you hold down a "real job" with benefits, or have a partner with one, you're on your own. Careful financial planning is very important to people whose paychecks come every three months -- if we're lucky.
As RLC said, you can purchase private health insurance. You can also get (slightly) discounted group rates through some writers' groups. Here's an excerpt from the HWA website:
In Times of Trouble
There are times when writers must pull together to solve mutual problems or come to each other's aid. HWA can be a friend to turn to when things get rough. Here's how we can help.
LIFE, HEALTH, AND LIABILITY INSURANCE
HWA members are automatically eligible for life, health, and media liability insurance policies offered through the Council of Writers' Organizations, to which we belong.
DISCOUNT ON PRE-PAID LEGAL SERVICES
Also offered through our membership in the Council of Writers' Organizations, this benefit provides comprehensive legal services for a low monthly fee. This nationwide program is to attorneys' fees what major medical coverage is to hospital and doctors' bills.
HWA GRIEVANCE COMMITTEE
For the mediation or settlement of complaints arising from generalized unfair or unethical behavior on the part of individuals or organizations with whom HWA members regularly do business.
HARDSHIP LOANS
The writing life can be difficult. Established HWA members experiencing financial distress are eligible to apply for small safety net loans under this program |
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Grimbones
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 14:46:26
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quote:
Living in Canada works pretty well.
That's the last straw. I'm moving. ;)
Panel of Esteemed Authors: Thank you for the replies. I tried to hunt down my own dental insurance a month ago, but I had hopes that I was missing “the best kept secret” in the industry.
I understand that with different insurance laws in every state, quality coverage of a geographically diverse group is a complicated undertaking, but you’d think that we could do better for our nation’s most valuable resource. ;)
I mean, c’mon, isn’t America the last first world nation without universal healthcare?
I retrospect, I realize that I should have posed my question this way:
Where do freelance writers go to wine and dine rich patrons in order to get on their insurance plans? |
http://choosedeath.blogspot.com/ |
Edited by - Grimbones on 02 Apr 2004 14:48:05 |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 14:57:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Congrats on the sale, mother1219! I'm honored to have played a teeny-tiny part in your going pro.
It's often said that editors are more likely to read a submission marked Member, SFWA (or whatever) in a timely manner, or to respond positively to such a query letter, but I don't know from first-hand experience that it's true. Maybe Jim, who's an editor his own self, will tell us if it influences his reaction.
Pro org membership has never really influenced my opinion as an editor, and I don't know of any editors who weight it significantly. (I used to know one editor for a gaming fiction publisher who actually counted it as a minor strike against a writer.) Shawna McCarthy at Realms of Fantasy treats submissions from graduates of the Clarion writing courses differently, but only because she taught there.
Membership in a pro org like SFWA or HWA might get you interaction with an editor you might not otherwise have. And taking advantage of message boards or the articles in the members mag for SFWA to learn more about markets, contracts, and professional behavior will help you make your submissions and professional interaction more attractive. But the membership itself likely won't get you special treatment like faster responses on submissions.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
Edited by - JamesLowder on 02 Apr 2004 15:13:27 |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 15:05:03
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quote:
Originally posted by dbassingthwaite
Bias against game fiction, however, isn't just a SFWA thing - although I suspect I'm preaching to the choir on that point.
Oh, it's certainly a common prejudice in the industry. It's right out on the surface with SFWA, though. I believe people have run for officer spots in SFWA with shared world fiction bashing as part of their platform.
I'm certain the bias exists in HWA, with some people, but it's not systemic. This year's Stoker final ballot is a clear indication of that. One of the short fiction finalists is from The Book of Final Flesh, which I edited for Eden Studios. There's an actual RPG product up in the Other Forms catagory, and an RPG-related comic book story in the Illustrated Narrative category.
Cheers,
Jim |
Edited by - JamesLowder on 02 Apr 2004 20:38:49 |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 15:10:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Jim, I asked the SFWA Grievance Committee for help rather recently. Maybe it's gotten more effective than it was back when you belonged to the organization. Of course, it's also entirely possible that I just got lucky.
The SFWA GriefCom has helped some people, to be sure, but it was not reliable from what I've seen. I would never count on them, especially if your problem is with a game-related publisher, since the general sneering attitude about w-f-h (work-for-hire) and game publishers makes it unlikely the membership will support blowing funds to "better" a part of the market they see as beyond redemption. With the Dragon CD ROM mess, they clearly screwed some people over and made things actively worse for writers, enough so that at least a couple quit the org. for that specific reason.
As always, Richard, your mileage may vary. Glad they proved useful for you.
Cheers,
Jim |
Edited by - JamesLowder on 02 Apr 2004 20:40:26 |
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mother1219
Acolyte
26 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 16:42:54
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Quote:
quote:
Pro org membership has never really influenced my opinion as an editor, and I don't know of any editors who weight it significantly. (I used to know one editor for a gaming fiction publisher who actually counted it as a minor strike against a writer.) Shawna McCarthy at Realms of Fantasy treats submissions from graduates of the Clarion writing courses differently, but only because she taught there.
Membership in a pro org like SFWA or HWA might get you interaction with an editor you might not otherwise have. And taking advantage of message boards or the articles in the members mag for SFWA to learn more about markets, contracts, and professional behavior will help you make your submissions and professional interaction more attractive. But the membership itself likely won't get you special treatment like faster responses on submissions.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
Thank you Mr. Lowder. As always, you have proven very helpful. It's exactly this sort of practical information that I need. Your experience as both an author and an editor have again helped me out.
Note to those thinking, "What's he talking about?": Mr. Lowder was kind enough several weeks ago to offer some excellent advise to me about short story writing and, obviously, something worked. So thank you again Mr. Lowder.
Sorry to have hijacked the thread slightly.
-Mother/Ed
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History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men...Godzilla.
Go, Go Godzilla
See my silly blog: http://www.motherlove.blogspot.com/ |
Edited by - mother1219 on 02 Apr 2004 16:44:15 |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 20:35:40
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quote:
Originally posted by mother1219
Quote:Note to those thinking, "What's he talking about?": Mr. Lowder was kind enough several weeks ago to offer some excellent advise to me about short story writing and, obviously, something worked. So thank you again Mr. Lowder.
Glad the exchange was useful. Congratulations on landing the story contract!
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
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Bruce Donohue
Learned Scribe
Canada
131 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 08:11:04
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I have a few question to the esteemed authors here.
Wanting to know if this is more of a myth than anything else...
I was once told that if there isn't an open contest, that an unpublished author must demonstrate, via various submissions, at least 12 attempts to the same publishing company before one is considered to be serious, and two before the publishing company really notices who and what your writing style is really about. That usually on the 13th attempt, that it seems to be the lucky number and when they finally take you on in a some role as a test.
My second question is... the previous organizations are all pro writers or semi pro-writers associations aren't they not? Does the John Hubbard Star of the Future Award have much recognition in the industry?
Though affliated with SFFNET, I am part of a Writer's Forum called Critters. Org (http://www.critters.org). This a private authors forum, one can join and all the submitted material is protected, allows people to put up their stories for the other members to critique. It offers the prospective author the possibility to gain valuable feedback, from not only other peers, but some pro members as well. In exchange for having your story critiqued, you must also critique others in order to stay in good standing to have further stories of yours critiqued. Critters, is a site dedicated to Fantasy, Horror, and Science Fiction stories only. All stories are welcome and none are really ever belittled in any way. So far though sci-fi stories seem to be the most prelevent. I recommend it to anyone. They also have a list of fellow authors in a little honor roll, that have been published and their comments afterwards, since 3/4 of posters were unpublished before.
Now a question about getting an Agent. When one is unpublished, how does one attract an agent to be willing to take you on to go up to bat for you and presenting a story to a publishing company? How much do agents normally charge for services? Is it even worth while for an unpublished author to even think of hiring an agent? How does one, who has never had an agent before, weed out which is a good agent and which one is not? What criteria makes for a good agent to help an unpublished author get published? In other words, what does one look for? |
Edited by - Bruce Donohue on 03 Apr 2004 08:17:16 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 09:12:03
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Bruce D: I'm reasonably certain the 13th-time's-the-charm theory is utterly bogus with regard to any publisher or editor in the known universe. You send them a submission they like well enough, and they'll buy it, whether it's your first try or your hundredth. Conversely, if they don't like it enough, they won't accept it, no matter how many times you've tried with them before. That's really all there is to it.
SFWA and HWA are professional associations, yes.
I think you may be talking about the L. RON Hubbard WRITERS of the Future contest? I don't know how seriously editors and publishers regard it, bu I do know that some guys who've won it have gone to establish professional careers.
These days, agents typically take 15% of the advance and royalty money they help you earn. (Never, ever pay an agent money out of your pocket for any reason whatsoever.) The first step in getting one is to send him a query letter. If what you say sparks his interest, he'll ask you to send him a writing sample, maybe the entire manuscript of your novel, maybe the first three chapters and a synopsis or something like that.
Note that I say, your novel. Agents peddle book projects. They usually aren't interested in short fiction because the money they could make hawking it isn't worth their while. And you can peddle your short stories without an agent's help anyway. So, if you're currently doing short fiction but haven't gotten going on a novel yet, don't worry about securing representation.
It's very hard for a beginning writer to tell a good agent from a bad one. Heck, in my opinion, it can be tough even if you've been a pro for a good long while. But here are some very basic guidelines:
You want an agent who represents a number of other clients who write the same kind of stuff you do.
The agent should be making sales for those clients.
If you get a chance to talk to them, those clients should be willing to recommend the agent.
The agent's office should be in New York City (where the greater part of the book business is) or so close to NYC that he gets into the city often to meet face to face with editors.
The agent should not ask you to sign a contract that will make it costly or horribly difficult to part company with him if your relationship goes south.
And, I reiterate, the agent should not ask you to give him cash for a reading fee, photocopying, postage, or anything else. He should have to sell your work both to earn any money and to recoup any incidental expenses incurred in the process.
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Bruce Donohue
Learned Scribe
Canada
131 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 18:12:56
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Thanks Richard for the answers.
How does one find an agent? How does one attract an agent in the first place if you have never had anything published in the first place? Wouldn't it be most a waste of money for the unpublished author to even solicit the services of an agent in the first place? Maybe it is just me, but I haven't heard of many unpublished authors having any real success using an agent to help them get the first infamous foot in the door, or that first contract and therefore no longer be considered amongst the ranks of the unpublished.
I guess what I am trying to say, is this... I am debating getting an agent or not because so far, my own attempts have not been fruitful and thought that maybe an agent would help in regards to landing that first contract. In regards to the 13 try thing, well you are right it probably is just bogus (some myths say even you need to be of a certain age), but so is the thinking that you can get published on the first try idea. After all how many people out there have on their rejection letters the famous courteous words: "Every author started somewhere, and no one was published on their first attempt."
Secondly, you mentioned in regards to agents they sometimes want to see a completed novel. I thought about this, and in my personal opinion, why would I want to technically do that?
Publishing companies never take unsolicited novels; they take either only submission samples or short stories at most. Yes I realize that novels are what is the ultimate goal, hence why you are writing in the first place (for the love of writing and to want to pursue it on a totally different level). Having said that, I can hone my craft and gain experience much more quickly if I write many short stories and submissions. Being all authors yourselves, I am sure you can attest to the fact that writing a novel is much more time consuming than writing a short story, or a compelling submission sample that runs between 10 to 20 pages.
After all I have to think about my so called "real time job", other mundane responsibilities of daily life, then I have to think of a story, write it, edit it over and over, then put on my salesman and marketing hat, write a polite, down-to-earth, well though out query letter that demonstrates both interest (hinted but not blatantly demonstrating my eagerness) and knowledge of the medium (all their guideline rules of each particular publishing company). Maybe it is just me, but I will deal with writing a complete novel when I cross that bridge, until then I have secure the opportunity to write that first illustrious novel.
Though this may sound weird, I tend to follow the rule of writing about what I know and like. Personally, having gone through a few submissions and the various form letters, I now write for me because I have to since it is bigger than me and though frustrating at times, brings me so much more rewards of personal satisfaction. On the flip side of that coin, I would be a hypocrite if I even thought of denying that fact that I wouldn't want to get published. I can't speak for other unpublished authors, yet for me, as much as I love to write for myself and hear the enjoyment of friends that they liked the story, so to is the strong pulled desire to share it with the rest of the world and see my words in print.
It is not the money; it is not the delusions of notoriety that is my principal muse, but more a feeling and a sense of having accomplished something. That one has beaten the odds, that one has persevered despite all the negativity and the once voiced words that your dream can't come true did indeed see the light of day. Hell, maybe all you Forgotten Realms writers shared this thought or not at one time or another when you first started, but strangely enough I could honestly say, that even if I only got one book published in my lifetime, I would go out happy knowing that I did it.
Maybe for me it is even more poignant. Because when I see authors little blurbs describing a brief description of their background in their published books, that a little person like me who didn't graduate as a teacher, a journalist, a writer, or from any creative writing program; managed nonetheless to have someone believe that all those hours spent teaching oneself and learning to write creatively on their own steam, succeeded at getting oneself published. It is just like that little story many of us heard as children, about that little train that went up the hill all the while saying to himself: "I think I can, I think I can," and when he finally reached the top of that hill felt like the most special little train in the world.
Sorry I babbled on here, my apologies to the various Realms Authors who may have read this.
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Kameron M. Franklin
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 22:57:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Donohue
Thanks Richard for the answers.
How does one find an agent? How does one attract an agent in the first place if you have never had anything published in the first place? Wouldn't it be most a waste of money for the unpublished author to even solicit the services of an agent in the first place? Maybe it is just me, but I haven't heard of many unpublished authors having any real success using an agent to help them get the first infamous foot in the door, or that first contract and therefore no longer be considered amongst the ranks of the unpublished.
You can purchase directories of agents or probably even find some online. You attract an agent with a query letter (as Richard said) and then a work sample, usually 3 chapters plus a synopsis, or a finished manuscript. If you plan only to write short stories then yes, getting an agent is not necessary. However, most of the major publishers do not accept unsolicited manuscripts, which means you have to use an agent to get them to even look at your work.
quote:
Secondly, you mentioned in regards to agents they sometimes want to see a completed novel. I thought about this, and in my personal opinion, why would I want to technically do that?
Publishing companies never take unsolicited novels; they take either only submission samples or short stories at most. Yes I realize that novels are what is the ultimate goal, hence why you are writing in the first place (for the love of writing and to want to pursue it on a totally different level). Having said that, I can hone my craft and gain experience much more quickly if I write many short stories and submissions. Being all authors yourselves, I am sure you can attest to the fact that writing a novel is much more time consuming than writing a short story, or a compelling submission sample that runs between 10 to 20 pages.
After all I have to think about my so called "real time job", other mundane responsibilities of daily life, then I have to think of a story, write it, edit it over and over, then put on my salesman and marketing hat, write a polite, down-to-earth, well though out query letter that demonstrates both interest (hinted but not blatantly demonstrating my eagerness) and knowledge of the medium (all their guideline rules of each particular publishing company). Maybe it is just me, but I will deal with writing a complete novel when I cross that bridge, until then I have secure the opportunity to write that first illustrious novel.
I answered the first part above. Novel writing is a big investment, but it is a much bigger pay off compared to short stories. Authors write because they love the craft, but they also have bills to pay. Agents and publishers don't purchase ideas, so that means you have to have a product to hand over to them before contracts are signed. Once you've proven yourself (whatever that means), it is likely that your publisher will offer future contracts without having to see the finished product first.
Now, there are exceptions. Take me for example. I got the Maiden contract with only a 10 page sample and synopsis, but again, that is the exception, not the rule. I have my own novels I'd like to publish, so I'll be looking for an agent in the next year, after I've completed a large chunk of the manuscript for my first book so I have something to show. |
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 23:03:13
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Bruce D.: You can find listings of agents. I believe Writer's Digest Press publishes a yearly book, and also has a briefer listing of agents in the annual edition of Writer's Market. These lists typically tell you what kind of material the agent is interested in representing, and maybe who some of his bigger-name clients are.
If you get hold of a SFWA or HWA directory (presumably by joining the organizations, or begging a favaor from someone who's a member), you'll find agents listed among the other members.
Then, as I indicated in my last past, you send a query letter. If you're lucky, they'll ask to see a submission, and then, if you're even luckier, it will impress them so much that they'll take you on as a client, unpublished or no. It does happen.
An agent who has no interest in taking on a beginner presumably will not respond positively to your query, so you only wasted as much time and money on that guy as it took to send the letter.
But you're right, it's not easy for an unpublished writer to get an agent, and therefore, I think it's the wrong approach if you ONLY query agents about your book or book proposal. If you want to try to get an agent, there's no harm in taking a shot at it, but at the same time that you're approaching agents, you should also be querying publishers to get them to look at your stuff. It's entirely possible you'll find an editor who thinks you're the next Tolkien before you find an agent who recognizes your genius.
Why should you write a complete novel on spec? Maybe you shouldn't. Every writer is different, every person's circumstances are different, and perhaps it would be the wrong move for you. But on the other hand, there may be some advantages to it.
Once you write a novel from start to finish, you'll know that, in fact, you're capable of completing the task. That's a good thing to be sure of. Also, for many of us, the only way to really learn to write novel-length stories well (perhaps at all) is to sit down and knock the darn things out. You'll likely develop your novelist skills by writing complete novels much more than you will just by doing the opening chapters and synopsis for a book proposal.
Also, some editors and agents may be more interested in a query that says, "I've written a novel" than in one that says, "I've got an idea for a novel, and can send sample chapters and an outline." Because before they go into business with a beginner, maybe they'd like to be sure that you can actually go the distance. |
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Writer's Associations
