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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 23:04:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Donohue
Thanks Richard for the answers.
What Richard said, plus the following.
I'd heard agents are leaning toward taking 20% these days.
The L. Ron Hubbard Writers of the Future Contest helps bring attention to your writing, but it isn't a significant factor in buying stories for any editors I know. I've bought several short stories from WotF winners or runners-up for various anthologies, but didn't really pay attention to that on their cover letters. Like any other credit you might list on your cover letter, it's going to mean different things to different editors.
Agents (like most publishers) want to see finished novels because something that sounds good in an outline may not work well in the actual book. The reverse is true, too--your outline may not reflect your ability to craft spectacular prose; the same book written by two different authors, from the same 10-page outline, could be radically different in quality. And if you have no trak record of published work, you have nothing to point to that indicates you can finish a whole novel, or what the finished book might be like.
In general, the best way to look at writing, at least when you're starting out, is: write because you want to, and write things you enjoy writing. Then find places to sell that material. If you don't sell it, you'll still have a work you're happy you wrote and which satisfied you creatively. If you write what you think will sell, you're left with a story you might not have wasted your time on.
It is actually quite difficult for an unpublished author to get an agent these days. Since most of the larger houses will not read unagented manuscripts, the agents have been given a great deal of power, and they are very, very selective. There are even many published authors who have had some difficulty in getting a good agent to take them on, because the competition is so fierce.
You learn about good agents the same way you do anything else in the industry--research. Read articles in Writer's Digest and Writer magazine. Talk to other writers. Join pro groups like SFWA or HWA--they usually have non-voting "associate" memberships available for people who are working up to full membership.
Three things to note, in addition to, and as amplification of, Richard's good advice on agents:
--A bad agent can hurt your chances of getting published, as well as create nightmares for you in terms of stolen money and wasted time and projects tied up in legal wrangling. And there are many bad and unscrupulous people passing themselves off as agents out there. Do your homework. Before signing on with an agent, make certain that agents represents other clients you've heard of, with books on the shelves from publishers you've heard of, and make certain you talk to some of those clients as references, too. Check out the "Writers Beware" web page and other resources on publishing scams.
--Always remember, money flows toward the writer. You should not be paying out of pocket to your agent for expenses--the agent makes his or her money when he or she sells your work. (The same is true with publishers--if a publiher requires you to pay anything to get your book into print, it's a bad deal.)
--Never, never, never sign a contract without having a lawyer--and not just any lawyer, but one familiar with publishing contracts and IP (intellectual property) law--take a look at it. But you need to do your homework about contracts, too. You should be your own backstop in all business matters like this. Learn about contracts and rights and copyright before you start sending any stories anywhere, to an agent or a publisher. (The Copyright Handbook, published by Nolo Press, is a good place to start on the general topic of copyright.)
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
Edited by - JamesLowder on 03 Apr 2004 23:12:26 |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 00:36:19
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Agents play several roles, but their primary one is that of a salesman. They need a marketable product, which means either a completed manuscript or an author with a proven track record. And even then, the Brand Name Author must have a new and viable product to sell. (For example, an agent could most likely seize an editor's attention with an opening such as, "I've just acquired J.K. Rowling as a client. Would you like to see a proposal for her next series?")
Sometimes you can sell a book from a proposal. This is especially true in shared-world writing. Elfshadow was accepted from a proposal in a situation very similar to Kameron Franklin's. I was offered a Star Wars novel on the strength of Bob Salvatore's recommendation. After writing fifteen shared-world books, I'd probably have an easier time moving into another shared world than an aspiring writer would have of breaking into that same world. Ditto with "book packaging," in which a writer does an original story based on someone's story concept -- very similar to shared-world writing. In such circumstances, a finished novel probably isn't going to help you land the job. A good proposal, a writing sample that shows talent, flexiblity -- that's what shared-world writing requires. I've received many emails from aspiring writers eager to sell their trilogies to WotC. Continuity control, a good balance of stories, conflicts with or duplication of ideas already in the pipeline -- these are just a few of the reasons why this approach is unlikely to get the WotC nod.
But for something other than shared-world fiction, I wouldn't submit a proposal and sample chapters. Completed manuscript only. Milage may differ, but here's my POV.
If I were an editor, I wouldn't automatically assume that someone who writes sword and sorcery can pull off a convincing historical novel set in 16th century Scotland. I'd want to see a manuscript. Same thing for "original fantasy." A sensible editor would think, Okay, this woman has written 16 short novels in someone else's setting, but that doesn't tell me if she can create an intriguing original setting, or for that matter, handle the pacing of an epic-length tale. |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 04 Apr 2004 00:39:00 |
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Bruce Donohue
Learned Scribe
Canada
131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 07:42:50
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Thank you all so very much. The words were indeed greatly appreciated. I am still mind you faced with my own personal confusion and reservations about getting an agent. The advice that you all gave me is what had indeed crossed my minds since I picked up a book at the librairy on the subject of agents.
James, as you mentioned, I am indeed doing this for me first and foremost. I completed a novel all my own, and on my own time that has about 450 pages to it.
One thing that has always puzzled me though about the industry is one little fact that just completely stuns me senseless. Let me give an example to better explain.
I am unpublished author.I send a detailed outline with chapter by chapter description. I send a submission sample along with it. I eagerly await the weeks to receive feedback, and then I get not a form letter but a rare written letter from the editor or editor in chief. Since I am on shared world forum, lets for sake of argument make it in a shared world. In the 3 small little paragraphs, the letter goes on to explain the reasons that they are rejecting it. It has no comments to indicate that prose, sentructure, or that you haven't matched the style of the publishing company. What it does mention is that unbeknownest to you the author submitting a totally random concept or set of ideas, happens by sheer luck to have similar ideas to something known only in house and in their pipeline.
Why would they refuse an author for that? If they are sending a submission for consideration to join the other stable of authors in their employ, why would they refuse the author if they aren't in the first place basing their decision on your story idea, but on your capability to write? That statement completely baffles me. This is my opinion, if I were the editor, I would view it as so: "Great, we have an unpublished author that knows our style, writes well enough for us to consider, they know the world and the style, I have to spend less time grooming the 'new person', and I don't have to use a valuable staff employee either to help them along the way. Without any knowledge they have hit on ideas and story lines that we with our marketing staff view is a highly sellable concept. If they can predict this without any knowledge naturally, than imagine what he or she could do when we give them an assignment. All I will have to due is give a suggestion here or there and sit back and watch the magic they can come up with."
Maybe it is just me, that I maybe I am too logical, or simply I do not fully grasp the point of view of an editor.
In quest for knowledge and better understanding I hope that this will not be perceived as being naive or simply too bold. Please this is not my intent, I am just trying to get a better sense and appreciation as to what indeed an editor truly is.
If an editor takes the time to have someone make up a form letter or they do it themselves and they have also taken the time to read and decide if they subjectively like your story or not, how much more time does it really take to write a couple paragraphs of feedback to point the writter in the right direction, where they need more experience in honing their craft, or what they didn't like the story? If there are indeed too busy to re-type the form letter, don't most have a secretary that can type up the 100 to 150 words that they might at max write up in regards to feedback? Since most secretaries type in the 50 to 60+ word per minute count, it would take less than two minutes to do. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 18:16:43
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Bruce, I think that most any pro will tell you, if you let yourself, you can easily go nuts brooding about the reasons an editor gives you for rejecting a particular submission. Sometimes the explanation really doesn't seem to make logical sense from the writer's perspective.
But you know what? Ultimately, it makes no difference if the stated reasons for rejecting your material make sense. It also makes no diference if you understand them. Either way, you're left in the same place: your stuff got rejected. It happens to everybody sometimes. If you're serious about launching or continuing a pro writing career, you'll write something new and submit that, to the same editor or another. And you'll submit the rejected stuff to a different market if that's possible. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 18:32:12
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Bruce: It's me again. Realized I didn't say everything I wanted to say in my preceding post.
To avoid frustration and disappointment, you need to be realistic in your expectations of editors. An editor is not paid to be your writing teacher or your friend. He's paid to procure publishable, profitable material for the publisher with a certain degree of efficiency.
He's also extremely busy. Part of the reason he's busy is that he receives a constant deluge of submissions. You say to yourself, "Gee, it would only take him a couple minutes to give me some really helpful feedback." Maybe, but if he makes it his practice to give helpful feedback on all the manuscripts he processes, there goes a huge part of his work time. And remember, he's got other tasks besides processing submissions. He's got to edit the books he does acquire.
Despite his heavy workload, an editor may take the time to give you some sort of personal feedback. My advice would be, when that happens, be grateful, and take it as a sign that the editor likely sees something of merit in your writing, which makes him a good person to submit to again. And when it doesn't happen, when you just get the form rejection letter, be understanding of the editor's circumstances, and don't resent it, and don't take it as an indication that you should not try that market again in the future. |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 20:53:04
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| Just a small question. Phil Athans (a noted Realmsian Editor) is beginning to write the fifth book in the War of the Spider Queen Series. Would being an author qualify you to be an editor, or vice versa? |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 21:41:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Donohue
I am unpublished author.I send a detailed outline with chapter by chapter description. I send a submission sample along with it. I eagerly await the weeks to receive feedback, and then I get not a form letter but a rare written letter from the editor or editor in chief. Since I am on shared world forum, lets for sake of argument make it in a shared world. In the 3 small little paragraphs, the letter goes on to explain the reasons that they are rejecting it. It has no comments to indicate that prose, sentructure, or that you haven't matched the style of the publishing company. What it does mention is that unbeknownest to you the author submitting a totally random concept or set of ideas, happens by sheer luck to have similar ideas to something known only in house and in their pipeline.
A handy thumbnail guide to rejection letters (and I have written and received many over the past 15+ years):
* Editors are incredibly busy. When I was handling "slush" (unsolicited manuscripts/submissions) at TSR, I got dozens of letters and manuscripts day. For the zombie fiction anthologies I recently edited for Eden Studios, I had hundreds and hundreds of submissions. I had Xerox boxes full of them. To write and print my response to each submission took--let's minimize it--five minutes. Not a lot of time, right? Now multiply that times 750 submissions--it adds up to 62.5 hours. And this is just the time to respond to them, not the time required to read the submissions. (And there are really no editors these days who just read submissions; the editors reading the slush are also supposed to be editing books already on the schedule, and going to marketing meetings, cover design meetings, sleeping now and then....)
So if you get any sort of personalized reply, be happy.
* A rejection means your work was not right for that market or project. That's all you can know for certain. Your story could be great, your writing spectacular, but still not right for the publisher or magazine or the specific project that's being put together. As an editor I've rejected stories that went on to be reprinted in Year's Best collections, and rejected books that went on to great acclaim at other publishers. I'm OK with that. I didn't reject them because they were bad, but because they wouldn't have worked well for that publisher or that project. Or it could be that your writing is bad, or this story or proposal a flop. But a rejection, by itself, will not tell you which.
* Just about every author gets rejected. I have. Lots of times. As an editor, I've turned down stories or novel proposals from many of the published writers on this forum, and lots of other "names" too. It doesn't mean they aren't fine writers. The pitch they made didn't fit the spot I was looking to fill.
* While you can only know with any certainty that your rejected work was not right for a project, seriously consider any criticism you receive, especially if an editor took the time to offer specific, personalized comments. If an editor says your characters need work, give it some thought. If you're ever going to improve as a writer, you need to be self-critical. You need to be your own harshest editor/critic. Of course, editors can be wrong. Don't assume that all criticism of your work from an editor (or a reviewer) is correct. But give it some honest consideration and use it to help you develop a strong critical inner voice.
As for the note you got--the publisher may have felt it was important to let you know that your work was a lot like something in the pipeline, so that you wouldn't feel that they had ripped you off--stolen your idea. If I were you, I would follow up on the letter, addressed to the editor who sent it to you, with a note that thanks her or him for the reply, then note something along the lines of "I'm happy to hear the idea I pitched was close to what you're already pursuing. I think that shows I'm thinking about the line the right way. Is there a way for me to do another writing sample so we can test that further?" Include a SASE for a possible reply.
You'll be able to get a better sense of the intent of the first letter from there.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
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Edited by - JamesLowder on 04 Apr 2004 22:05:15 |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 21:45:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
Just a small question. Phil Athans (a noted Realmsian Editor) is beginning to write the fifth book in the War of the Spider Queen Series. Would being an author qualify you to be an editor, or vice versa?
Editing and writing are two very different skill sets. As a writer, you are trying to express your creative vision. As an editor, your job is to help the writer express his or her creative vision in a clear, entertaining way. There's some crossover between the skill sets, but not all writers have the right mindset to be editors (they act as co-writers, not as editors), and not all editors have the creative prose skills to create an original work.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
Edited by - JamesLowder on 04 Apr 2004 21:58:44 |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 22:08:30
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I thought so, but a friend of mine insisted I ask someone else... Ah well, thanks James.  |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Erin Tettensor
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2004 : 16:40:08
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I just wanted to thank everybody who has participated in this string. As a brand-new "pro" (I too just made my first sale to the Realms of the Dragons anthology -- thanks Richard!) these are issues that I've been wrestling with for some time. My experience is rather different from my fellow Canadian's, though. I am new to Forgotten Realms, though not to WoTC (I was a Dragonlance junkie when I was a kid). I have been pursuing my writing as a full-time career for nearly two years now, and have two completed and one near-complete novel to show for it.
On the subject of spending so much time writing something "on-spec", I can only say that while writing a novel is no doubt a huge commitment, it's also an enormous high. If you didn't get that kind of kick out of writing, why would you do it? It certainly isn't for the dental benefits. I can also tell you that while it is generally the case that publishers don't accept unsolicited manuscripts, it is not always so. Both DAW and Tor, major fantasy imprints both, accept unsolicited work. DAW is an imprint of Penguin-Putnam, and their response times are actually quite reasonable. (Or so they claim. I haven't quite screwed up the courage to put them to the test yet.) But even if this weren't the case, I can think of no other way to learn your craft. Because I can tell you that for me, there's absolutely no comparison between where I am now and where I was a year ago.
I can personally recommend the Guide to Literary Agents, published annually, as a sourcebook. It lists agents by genre, which is enormously helpful, and includes only AAR accredited agents.(It even has a separate listing of Canadian agents, if you choose to go that route.) But I'm inclined to agree with those authors who said that you're more likely to get noticed as a novice by a publisher than an agent. That certainly agrees with the research I've done on this subject, which is pretty extensive.
Ultimately, though, there's no substitute for the anecdotal experience of published authors, which is why I'm grateful for fora like this. Thanks again, guys.
ps -- does anybody know the etiquette of the following situation:
You have sent a query letter to all and sundry, thinking you'll receive nothing but rejections. But --oops!-- several agents nibble at your line, and they all want the MS. Trouble is, they don't accept simultaneous submissions.
Do you treat these in order? Do you lie and hope for the best? This has already happened to me once, and I think I handled it badly. Anyone have any advice? |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2004 : 21:17:53
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Congratulations, Zyx!
The simultaneous submission question is a thorny one. The long turn-around times we encounter when we send a book manuscript or proposal to an editor or an agent are the writer's bane, and that's a fact. But even so, I would definitely not lie. It's unethical, and it could come back on you in an unfortunate way. So don't say that you are not making a simultaneous submission if, in fact, you are.
I think your idea of dealing with the agents one at a time is probably the right one. The downside is that, if the first couple guys decide not to represent you, when you send your stuff to the next agent on the list, you're probably going to be responding to a letter that's at least six months old. But maybe it won't come to that.
The only even halfway viable alternative I can see is to make simultaneous submissions and, in your cover letters, don't address the question of whether they are or aren't simultaneous one way or the other. That way, you aren't playing by the rules the agent said he wanted you to play by, but at least you aren't actually lying to him, either. You could still wind up in an awkward situation, though, and that's definitely not the course of action I recommend.
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Erin Tettensor
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2004 : 09:21:07
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Thanks for the reply, Richard.
On the subject of lying, I've never been much good at it anyway. All that would happen is I'd spend night after night staring at the ceiling wondering if those agents knew each other and I'd get caught out. It's not a course of action I've ever seriously considered; I guess I was just trying to illustrate what a bind that situation puts you in.
I took the first course when this happened to me. But as you guessed, by the time it came down to the third agent, it was several months since I had received his letter. I can't say for sure whether that mattered, but since he was the only agent that didn't even reply with a rejection letter, I'm suspicious that it might have. (It's always possible, of course, that the MS just wasn't that good. A year and a half after writing it, I'm beginning to think so myself.)
It's moot at the moment -- I haven't got any queries in circulation. But I was secretly hoping there was some established code of conduct in this situation that would keep you out of trouble. Agents seem to have strict do's and dont's about everything else, after all. They should make a rule! |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2004 : 14:56:27
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The established code of conduct is, no simultaneous submissions except to those rare editors or agents who say they are willing to consider them.
But I'll tell you, after you've had somebody sit on a submission for six months, nine months, a year or more--and at some point, if my own experience is anythng to go on, this is very likely to happen to you--if you start wondering if there isn't a way to finesse the established code a little, well, you certainly won't be the first writer to think such thoughts. |
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Erin Tettensor
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 15:49:50
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Thanks, Richard. That makes me feel better, at any rate.
Since I have your ear (eye?), I'll ask you another question, if you don't mind:
I've read repeatedly that the majority of published authors get their first agent through networking, whether through an established author they know or, more commonly, by attending workshops and writer's groups. Is this true? If so, what do those of us who live in the boonies do about it? (Apologies to any Swiss people who might be reading this, but honestly I've seen abandoned warehouses more exciting than this place.)
What I need right now is a good strategy to get myself out of the slush pile. I have a friend who used to work the slush at Harper Collins, and she tells me that even if your work is good, you're still very unlikely to be rescued from the mire. It's really a major stroke of luck if you are. And as for agents, they seem to think they can gauge the calibre and saleability of someone's work based on three paragraphs. Gifted people, obviously.
Is it perhaps a good idea to sell a piece of short fiction based on a scene or characters from your novel? That way, over and above the obvious value of showing you've sold your work to other markets, you might establish that this particular property is attractive to others. Is that a viable strategy, or is it more likely to damage your chances because the 'cat's out of the bag'? |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 18:05:04
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Zyx, when I had an agent (I'm flying solo these days), I got her via the query letter route, so it can be done. As to whether that's the way most people do it, I can't say. My general feeling about going to writer's conferences, workshops, the big sf conventions, etc., and networking and schmoozing relentlessly is that if you're lucky and not too obnoxious when meeting folks face to face, it can indeed grease the ramp for you, but a lot of people never do that stuff and succeed anyway. Which is a good thing, because some of us aren't good at that kind of thing, or feel very uncomfortable doing it. Or, as you say, live in the boonies and for whatever reason--lack of funds, lack of time, obligations--can't make World Fantasy Con, World SF Con, and what have you.
With regard to selling a short story related to your novel, my feeling is that it's not going to make any difference to a book editor one way or the other. Not unless the short story won a major award or got picked for a Year's Best anthology, and possibly not even then. So do the short story if you feel like it--it's not going to hurt anything--but I doubt it's going to score any points for you when you try to peddle the book. |
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Erin Tettensor
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 18:51:32
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| Good to know, thanks. With the limited time I have available, I'd rather not waste my time with make-work projects that aren't going to help me out anyway. I guess I'll just have to do my best to figure out that magic formula that catches an agent's eye in the query letter. |
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Writer's Associations
