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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Sep 2016 : 02:42:17
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Hi all. I've been delving into Dwarves Deep recently, and can't help but notice what I feel is a discrepancy between its description of dwarven behaviour and that of material on dwarves 3e and onwards. I couldn't find any prior threads on it.
Dwarves Deep, a book made for people playing in the 1350s and 60s, describes the shield dwarves as pretty much being happy with mating with anything that moves to get their numbers up, knowing down the generations dwarven blood predominates. It even goes as far as to say that "fear of clan extinction sometimes drives dwarves to raid human settlements for mates, or even to deal with slavers"!
This is compared to the descriptions of the dwarves post the Thunder Blessing, supposedly in 1306. These dwarves have been boosted to half the population rate of humans, and seem optimistic about their future. It certainly doesn't sound like they're desperate enough to seek non-dwarven mates.
I guess my question to y'all is: is there something I'm missing here, or is this just a retcon?
I'm loving Dwarves Deep, but a lot of the character of the dwarves described within its pages seems to be a consequence of the dwarven drive to preserve their population, and I can't help but feel that the Thunder Blessing removes the desperate nature of that drive.
I'd love to know how people tackle dwarven culture in their own games. Dwarves Deep is really great IMHO, but I'm also interested in staying true to current canon. What drives your dwarves if not the urge to preserve their population?
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Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2016 : 03:30:30
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| A 3e retcon... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2016 : 17:34:33
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| 3e came out with plenty of good stuff, but there were also some places where it completely ran counter to established canon for no reason. That stuff, of which the Thunder Blessing is rather high on the list, should be ignored IMO. It is impossible to reconcile Dwarves Deep and the Thunder Blessing, so I throw out the Thunder Blessing. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2016 : 18:56:50
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I ignore the Thunder Blessing as well.
The way I look at it, they were always able to do what they are doing now, but for whatever reason, dwarven males seem to have become... lax... in their duties. I would almost consider 'industry' to be a cultural addiction, ignoring just about everything else to achieve that 'perfect work'. So the Dwarven gods gave them a little incentive ('Divine Viagra', as it were), and they are 'getting busy'. 
Also, taking the beards off the women helped, BIG TIME.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2016 : 19:15:12
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| My understanding of the Thunder-blessing was that was that it dramatically increased the odds of dwarves being twin-born, which has the obvious side effect of nearly doubling the birth rate. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2016 : 19:25:44
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I would say that Dwarves Deep was based on information known in-setting at the time; it was only 20 years later, when people noticed dwarves becoming more common, that the wider world found out about the Thunder Blessing. It's even possible the dwarves hid the info for a few decades, to keep the other races from knowing about it.
As for myself, my only issue with the Thunder Blessing is that if the authors had added merely one or two more sentences, the sudden advent of dwarves using arcane magic could have been explained in-setting, instead of being a blatant retcon. They gave themselves the perfect explanation and then failed to use it. It's one of the many failures of the 2E/3E transition. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2016 : 19:26:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
My understanding of the Thunder-blessing was that was that it dramatically increased the odds of dwarves being twin-born, which has the obvious side effect of nearly doubling the birth rate.
There is that, but it was more then that - the birth rate was unnaturally low to begin with, so it not only increased the chance of twins, but it also dramatically increased the birth rate itself. For whatever reasons, dwarves weren't very fertile for a time there, and the number of females compared to males was also very low.
I would say nature was self-correcting again (needing more males because of losses suffered in wartime), and now the pendulum is just swinging back the other way. Of course, in a fantasy setting, 'nature' and 'The Gods' is pretty much the same thing. 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As for myself, my only issue with the Thunder Blessing is that if the authors had added merely one or two more sentences, the sudden advent of dwarves using arcane magic could have been explained in-setting, instead of being a blatant retcon. They gave themselves the perfect explanation and then failed to use it. It's one of the many failures of the 2E/3E transition.
Since there are VERY rare examples of dwarves using arcane magic pre-Thunder Blessing, my assumption here is that it was a 'cultural thing' all along. To each their own.
There was that one online D&D article that described how the dwarves were unable to even read the nether scrolls, but that may have just been something specific to those items. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Sep 2016 19:30:12 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2016 : 19:59:45
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| Dwarven wizard is even further out there for me than dwarven ranger. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2016 : 20:08:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There was that one online D&D article that described how the dwarves were unable to even read the nether scrolls, but that may have just been something specific to those items.
I have a copy of that. They couldn't even see the Scrolls, much less read them.
That was the file that I had to spend a couple years looking for, and I only found it when someone provided the name and I intuited the URL from there. So far as I know, it's still on the WotC site, though there haven't been any links to the file for years. I'll have to check that URL later, when I can find it again. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2016 : 20:09:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Dwarven wizard is even further out there for me than dwarven ranger.
I originally didn't like the idea, but I've since come to accept it. WotC chucking all the restrictions out the window for classes and races certainly took some getting used to. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6359 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2016 : 01:01:48
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Is that a Word file? Can't seem to open it from my phone.
Edit: nvm |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 10 Sep 2016 01:06:37 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6655 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2016 : 08:12:26
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That little story is from the old REALMS-L listserv from way back when. It was never "official". Nice to see Grant's work again.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2016 : 09:35:04
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I'm loving Dwarves Deep, but a lot of the character of the dwarves described within its pages seems to be a consequence of the dwarven drive to preserve their population, and I can't help but feel that the Thunder Blessing removes the desperate nature of that drive.
Why not? It, indeed, merely makes things not quite desperate.
Besides, the dwarves are not elves - they will act mostly like they used to, rather than sit, drink, watch butterflies and say "oh, surely gods will find some way to pull our pretty butts out of fire the next time, too".
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Dwarven wizard is even further out there for me than dwarven ranger.
What's funny? Makes sense, and even could be cool, either underground or in mountains. Now, the choice of animal companions can be funny. Then again -
But never knock the yak, the yak
No, never knock the yak!
Squat, shaggy, enduring, both sexes have what most creatures in their family have for secondary characteristic (horns), band together (other than as families), threaten if disturbed and can kick ass if cornered. That's a very dorfy beast, IMHO.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And the file, first posted in early 2000, is still there!
The Scrolls and the Dwarves/ The Denial of Mystryl -- A very brief tale; it offers a reason for while pre-3E dwarves could not use arcane magic.
It doesn't "offers a reason" for anything. It merely narrates an in-universe legend related to the subject. Which could as well be true, given that the scrolls are established to be interactive.
Which is set long after raise of Netheril, and as such is far too late to be origin of anything that concerns dwarves.
In-universe reason why dwarves cannot do arcane magic was that they are so anti-magical that for a dwarf even generic magic items other than weapons and armor (like ring of invisibility) have a chance to fail on each particular use. Which was made less than unique, as this also happens for Giff. Firbolgs are said to have involuntary resistance too, but not clarified whether this applies to trinkets. And someone else too, can't remember now. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Omenborn
Acolyte
Germany
16 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2016 : 11:06:26
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Please correct me but was the Thunder Blessing not limited to the Dwarves of the Great Rift ? Sorry if im wrong but was some time since i last looked into my old D&D stuff :).
And for the thing with the Nether Scrolls sounds similiar to Happenings in one the Books in the Dwarven Nations Trilogy of Krynn in concern of Magic.
For me i like the Idea of more Dwarves since they seemed very often to hold back great Hordes of Goblinkind and Orcs. |
Some Adventure for Gold,
others for Fame,
ME i just like to KILL THING |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6359 Posts |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2016 : 14:36:52
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I'd love to know how people tackle dwarven culture in their own games.
Wow. The idea of dwarves raiding and breeding (whether by enslaving people or through willing couplings) certainly paints a picture of dire times. I really like that idea. I have referred to the thunder blessing in my own campaign notes I provide to players, so let's see if I can reconcile those two bits of canon.
The Thunder Blessing
Today (in the 1480s) dwarves are still in the minority, but are much more populpous then they were only a couple of centuries ago. Young dwarves today credit Moradin as being responsible for saving their race, by bestowing upon them the Thunder Blessing. An inexplicable increase in the fertility of all dwarves that resulted in a sudden overcrowding of the dwarven settlements. Dwarves nearing their 300th birthday however, know that the Thunder Blessing is nothing more than a lie. One perpetrated by their generation to cover up their crime.
In 1306 a great convocation was held among the dwarven leaders on what to do about their population levels. One by one, contact with dwarven settlements was being cut off as they were invaded by hostile forces. It had been calculated by dwarven engineers that even without external forces attacking the dwarves, the current population levels would result in the dwarves becoming extinct within 500 years. The convocation argued as to what they could do to stave off the destruction of their race. Some dwarves argued for reaching out to dwarven settlements who had been established off world, and to search for portals that would lead to contact with dwarves of other worlds. The convocation felt this was too risky, and that a much more certain path needed to be chosen.
It was with great reluctance that the assembly decided to enact a harsh and extreme breeding program. All dwarves, both male and female, would be required to mate with other species in order to bolster the dwarven numbers. Documented crossbreedings had shown that in the short-term any pairings with other races would result in the dwarves breeding true, so long as the offspring didn't continue the practice for more than 3 generations. However it was known that humans, elves and other races would not be eager to mate with the dwarves. And so more extreme methods would need to be undertaken.
Dwarves began raiding settlements of other races, capturing the inhabitants to be used as breeding stock for the dwarves. They also traded with other races, including drow, for slaves when they could afford to. Those who were kidnapped or purchased were all killed after 5 years, in a mass genocide the like of which Faerun hadn't seen in centuries.
However the program worked. It was discontinued in 1330 DR, with the dwarven numbers safely bolstered to such levels that the settlements were struggling to house the offspring. Lost dwarven halls and cities were being sought out in order to restore and bring to life once more with the excess population. The dwarves, ashamed of what they had done, created the cover story of the Thunder Blessing so that the product of the breeding program would be able to live without shame.
Not all dwarves, however, felt that it was time for the breeding program to end. Some dwarven settlements continued the practice in secret. The result of this was something no-one had expected. By the 1370s some of the dwarves from the extended breeing program were capable of learning wizardry. Such clans discontinued the practice altogether when the Spellplague hit, however now in the 1480s, the dwarven fertility levels have dropped once more. Although there are plenty of dwarves still alive, the elders are growing alarmed at how few new dwarves are being born and are fearful that things are going to return to how they were a more two centuries earlier. |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2016 : 15:00:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Dwarven wizard is even further out there for me than dwarven ranger.
How about Dwarven bards?
They need at least a couple of bards in every dwarven city to sing the dirges. And dwarven skalds to recite and chant the lore of long-dead warriors and heroes of legend. That's a bard's job.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2016 : 15:41:56
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
That little story is from the old REALMS-L listserv from way back when. It was never "official". Nice to see Grant's work again.
-- George Krashos
Really? It came from the Wizards website, and was put up around the same time the Roll of Years was. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6359 Posts |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2016 : 19:36:53
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quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Dwarven wizard is even further out there for me than dwarven ranger.
How about Dwarven bards?
They need at least a couple of bards in every dwarven city to sing the dirges. And dwarven skalds to recite and chant the lore of long-dead warriors and heroes of legend. That's a bard's job.
Dwarven Wizards that could sing, were called Bards. Dwarves are a secretive race. Maybe they had wizards all along, just hid them really well.
I like the idea of forced breeding and the Thunder Blessing. Maybe when the Dwarves started getting jiggy with other races, it embarrassed Moradin into TAKING "action". Just some thoughts... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 10 Sep 2016 19:37:39 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6359 Posts |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2016 : 22:09:39
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| Dwarves have been know to use Deepspawn to create troops during wars... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6359 Posts |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2016 : 02:50:21
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For my own Realms, I'm thinking of taking much of the desperate circumstances described in Dwarves Deep and ascribing them to pre-Thunder Blessing, but the situation does continue even afterwards, although to a less desperate extent. Then when the Thunder Blessing occurs (a real blessing from Moradin, but dwarven legend differs as to why), the birth rate comes up to "half as high as a young and vigorous human land", which I'm going to say makes for a stable population rather than a growing or declining one. All this seems to be kind of in line with canon as far as I can see.
I can't find any information saying anything changed in the Thunder Blessing except for upping the frequency of twins to one in five births (and thus indirectly increasing the birth rate), so I'm going to say individual fertility is still low, and the number of females is still only about 30% of the population. This would still make some individual dwarves seek relationships outside of the race, as described in Dwarves Deep. Although the overall population rate is stable, that doesn't help them find a partner, raise children, and contribute to their race themselves.
I want to have both Dwarves Deep be relevant and the Thunder Blessing to have occurred as described, and this is the best central position I can think of right now. Bottom line is that the dwarven population as a race would be stable, but individual dwarves still get desperate for some lovin'. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2016 : 00:23:42
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Do you really consider deep spawn progeny a regular dwarf? for me those products are not complete and should not be considered any race at all. I personaly hate deep spawn as a monster and would never use it in my realms. Where does it get the souls for those copies it makes???
For Moradin's blessing - I would place it closer to the current date just to make it more relevant to living dwarves... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2016 : 10:33:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
For Moradin's blessing - I would place it closer to the current date just to make it more relevant to living dwarves...
If it's the 1480's, dwarven characters would be the second, maybe third generation since the Thunder Blessing. I'd think they'd hear enough about it from their parents and extended family for it to be relevant. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6359 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2016 : 21:18:27
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Too much work to do the 'quotey thing'. so...
Deepspawn: I never liked them either, because they are pretty nonsensical. However, Ed always strived to provide explanations for certain aspects of D&D gaming that the rest of us tend to just overlook, like how dungeons are constantly re-stocked with treasure, magical items, and MONSTERS. So there's your choice - a weird monster that doesn't make much sense, or no explanation at all.
Artificial Dwarves:This is a tough one, but I'll fall back on my premise of "Use the lore to EXPLAIN the lore". When Dwarves are 'copied' the soul is split. A soul in D&D is a very real thing, and its a person's 'moral compass'. Without one, a creature becomes more primal... more 'animalistic' The 'mind' is nothing more than a big data base (and get shunted into Astral storage upon death, IIRC), leaving the reptilian brain in control. Those dwarves are not 'souless', but their souls have become so dwindled that they've completely lost their (dwarven) 'moral compass' - hence, why THOSE DWARVES almost all 'turned evil'. Basically, the dwarves who did all that became less 'dwarfy' to other dwarves (they even wound up with their own panthoen). They were almost like 'living automatons' by the end of the war.
Nether Scrolls Legends: It was written as a legend, and is therefore 'canon', but only as an in-setting story. I tend to believe it, although I do not agree with the premise that that demonstrates that dwarves couldn't do magic before. I believe that the Dwarven gods specifically put a 'block' on the Nether Scrolls themselves, seeing as how much trouble they've caused humans, elves, and others. So it wasn't so much a 'magic thing' as it was a 'scroll thing'.
Dwarven Magick: I believe dwarves and giants are distantly related, and at one time shared a culture, deities, and magical knowledge - the knowledge of RUNES. Giants and Dwarves BOTH CANONICALLY use Runes (Giantcraft & Dwarves Deep). I referenced this fact in other theories I've put forth before. The Magic of Runes is a very Primal form of magic, predating the universe itself. It is the written form of the Language Primeval, which itself is debased form of the purely mental (psionic) language first spoken by the elder powers (that tier two levels above 'deity'). Bards can sing parts of this language, and call it the 'Music of the spheres' (Sublime Chord, primal Music, etc). The spoken form is the basis for Words of power. A corrupted form is the Black Speech, used by fiends and their minions. ANYHOW... Runes are what dwarves are supposed to use, according to their gods. They frown upon Arcane ('newfangled' in their minds) magic. That doesn't mean dwarves couldn't do it, it just means that it was heavily frowned upon in dwarven society, except in very specific circumstances. Dwarves who developed an interest in arcane magic thus were forced to seek training elsewhere (usually among elves, but sometimes humans). I think how all this relates to the 'Thunder Blessing' was quite simple - just use the name of the event. Dwarves now have their god's 'blessing' to use magic within their society, thus negating the former cultural negativity.
Dwarven Crossbreeds: This is nothing new. I am surprised that no-one mentioned the D'Tarig of Anauroch, which had human blood. Apparently, when dwarves breed with just about anything else, the offspring come-out 'mostly dwarf', and are considered full-blood dwarves by other dwarves. This makes me think this situation is a LOT more common then we've been led to believe (probably because it may be a point of embarrassment to the sullen and private dwarves). It could also go a LONG way in explaining the slow disappearance of the beard on female dwarves in D&D. Dwarves are known for another thing - taking in 'refugees' from disasters and wars, mostly from their own race, but also quite often from human settlements and others. Now, we can assume that a 'mixing' happened after that, quite naturally. But I think, while that may also be the case, I think the very efficient dwarves may have pulled deals with some of these folk - "we will require 10% of your population number in dwarven children, and we will let you in and protect you". Nothing evil there (according to dwarven morality) - its just a simple business arrangement. Thus, wives and daughters may have been 'made available' to dwarven males and required to have a child (purely voluntary, of course... unless you want to imagine something different).
In Conclusion: We have to stop thinking of non-humans in fantasy games as 'short humans', 'pointy-eared humans', 'green humans', etc, etc. These are all ALIENS. They wouldn't think like us. Their cultural mores, responsibilities, faith, etc... would all be VERY different from ours. Yes, over the course of thousands upon thousands of years of interaction the various cultures have homogenized quite a bit (even goblinoids), but they are still NOT humans. A human might be very offended if his dwarf friend want to 'breed' his wife (although, Realms humans are also NOT Earth humans, and not nearly as squeamish about such things), but the dwarf would probably be a bit confused by his friend's anger. After all, this is an accepted practice amongst dwarves (not 'city' dwarves and elves, etc - they've come to know their human neighbors quite well). Elves, on the other hand, would probably jump at the chance just for the novelty. Every race is different, as it should be.
EDIT: All of the above is supposition on my part, and is not canon, although it is all based upon bits and pieces of canon. Consider the conclusions I have drawn 'homebrew'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Sep 2016 21:31:21 |
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Dwarves Deep vs the Thunder Blessing
