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Magic Matt
Seeker
USA
70 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 14:14:23
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I have been a fantasy fan now for more than 27 years when I first read the LOTR in the 5th grade, and have been hooked on the Forgotten Realms since they started back in the 80’s.
Why is the Forgotten Realms so ‘G’- rated? Sex is basically nonexistent, and the violence is less hard edged / real than in many other fantasy works.
-Robert Jordan: “Wheel of Time” and “Conan” series, are more violent and all of the main characters engage in sexual activities, especial in the Conan books, even including the use of prostitutes by the main character.
-George R.R. Martin: “A Storm of Swords” multiple sex scenes including lesbian sex, hard edged violence, mutilation.
-Raymond E. Feist: “Talon of the Silver Hawk” multiple sex scenes, very adult content.
-Elizabeth Haydon: “Symphony of Ages” series, VERY ADULT, rape of and prostitution by the main character, multiple HOT sex scenes (most ‘adult’ book I have read in fantasy by far)! [I did not really like this series, but not because of content.]
All of these are best selling fantasy authors, whose books all come out in ‘Hard Back’ first, and make their publishers $$$. The Forgotten Realms has Authors who are as good as these others, but they are not as popular, why? Could it be that the FR has failed to grow to meet the demands of the general fantasy reader?
I have noticed that recently there seems to be a harder edge to some of the FR books, “Twilight Falling” by Paul S. Kemp, is an example of this, and it is fantastic!
I, am wondering if this is a trend to bring FR into the more ‘main stream’ of fantasy fiction (and greater profitability), I hope it is, because I would hate to see this wonderful world that has given me so much pleasure, fade away because of lack of revenue.
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"You had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war."
-Winston Churchill- (to Neville Chamberlain)
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
-William Shakespeare, "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1
He who will not reason is a bigot. He who cannot is a fool. and he who dares not is a slave.
-Sir William Drummond- |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 15:18:32
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Whats 'G'-rated in English (non-American)? 
I have certainly noticed novels appearing more mature, as you mention - Twilight Falling. Paul Kemps work is great in many respects and has set a new flavor for the Realms. Sexual references have cropped up lately also, Venom's Taste, Sembia, although likely not anywhere near the way in which youre refering to in other non-FR novels.
Back in the old days of TSR, such violence and sexual scenes are certainly not touched upon, I guess it all stems back to those days, maybe some of the same book editors are still in command?
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Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 15:24:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Rad
Back in the old days of TSR, such violence and sexual scenes are certainly not touched upon, I guess it all stems back to those days, maybe some of the same book editors are still in command?
Unless, as Ed Greenwood pointed out in his thread, you were a certain author writing about a drow orgy at a celebration for an academy graduation. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 15:48:42
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According to the editorial guidelines, the Realms books are supposed to be "PG-13." Not G, but certainly not R.
There are a number of reasons for this. One involves the books' demographics, as well as the age of many gamers. Readers usually discover the Realms between the ages of ten and twelve. Yes, there are readers in their thirties and even forties, and these readers want adult content. I would argue, however, against the notion that "adult content" only refers to explicit sex and graphic violence. Hopefully older readers will keep coming back for the characterizations, the story, and the writing.
Fantasy readers are an unusually voracious bunch, and most of the readers I know enjoy a wide range of books. It's possible for an adult to read and enjoy the Harry Potter books (a representative of the US publisher said in an TV interview that as many as 67% of the readers are adults) and still read stories by G.R.R. Martin, Anne Rice, and China Mieville. Explicit sex and graphic violence might not be healthy fare for children, but neither do most adults desire a steady, uninterupted diet. |
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Magic Matt
Seeker
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 15:55:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Rad
Whats 'G'-rated in English (non-American)?
___________________________________________________________
Sorry for the US colloquialism!
It’s how we rate moves for content;
G- general audiences (kids stuff)
PG- parental guidance (kids over 8)
PG13- parental guidance (ok for teens 13 and up)
R- no one under 17 unless accompanied by an adult
NC17- no one under 17 period
X- ADULT
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"You had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war."
-Winston Churchill- (to Neville Chamberlain)
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
-William Shakespeare, "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1
He who will not reason is a bigot. He who cannot is a fool. and he who dares not is a slave.
-Sir William Drummond- |
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Magic Matt
Seeker
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 16:07:51
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I appreciate the attempt to appeal to a wide range of audiences in the FR books, and since my 3rd grader is now reading them I don’t mind the PG-13 limitation. {she, has an 11th grade reading level and age appropriate material is hard to find}
I’m just not sure FR traditionally has been PG-13, and having read some of the statements by Ed Greenwood (the stripping in the mud comment for example), of things that were harmless but got axed, I think PG is about the limit of FR so far.
But just my opinion, and I do so much enjoy the FR, just would like it slightly spicier!
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"You had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war."
-Winston Churchill- (to Neville Chamberlain)
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
-William Shakespeare, "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1
He who will not reason is a bigot. He who cannot is a fool. and he who dares not is a slave.
-Sir William Drummond- |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 16:12:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Magic Matt
All of these are best selling fantasy authors, whose books all come out in ‘Hard Back’ first, and make their publishers $$$. The Forgotten Realms has Authors who are as good as these others, but they are not as popular, why? Could it be that the FR has failed to grow to meet the demands of the general fantasy reader?
This is a very good question. I think the answer is more complicated, however, than the issue of mature content.
Mature context isn't an automatic guarantee of best-sellerdom. Consider some of the Terry Goodkind clones we've seen over the past few years. Most of us could name some that started with lots of hoopla about their "grittiness," but quickly faded away because of poor writing and lackluster storytelling. On the other hand, consider the Harry Potter phenominum.
I would agree, however, that the FR books don't meet certain expectations of the general fantasy readership. I think one issue is the size and scope of most FR books. Fantasy readers have become accustomed to epic novels -- big, sprawling, hefty tales that provide a lot of story to justify the cost of a hardcover novel. The longest FR novels run 140-150,000 words, which is about half the length of a G.R.R. Martin or Robert Jordan book.
Another issue is that the Forgotten Realms books are shared-world fiction. In the publishing industry, in professional writing organizations such as SFWA, and among many readers, there is a certain stigma against such books. They are considered a sub-genre, by their very nature excluded from "mainstream fantasy." (How's that for a concept? Can you say "jumbo shrimp," boys and girls? I KNEW you could....) Check out the best-seller lists in LOCUS, the sf/fantasy trade magazine. FR books are listed under "Media-related Fiction," and FR books, despite having original characters and plots, are always condescendingly described as "novelizations."
Forgotten Realms books are packaged and shelved in a manner that assumes readers are looking for the setting, not the author. If you're looking in general fantasy, you're unlikely to find a Forgotten Realms book. You have to go to the series section. This is both good and bad. It creates brand identity, but it also places the books in a shared-world ghetto.
That said, the top-selling FR books (R.A.Salvatore's Drizzt books) probably outsell all the authors Magic Matt listed but one (Robert Jordan.)
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 17:09:07
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Okay, you know what? Stuff it. I don't need my reading to be filled with sex and gore.  That's it. Period. You think you need that stuff for it to be entertaining, then there's something seriously wrong with you. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Magic Matt
Seeker
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 17:40:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Okay, you know what? Stuff it. I don't need my reading to be filled with sex and gore. That's it. Period. You think you need that stuff for it to be entertaining, then there's something seriously wrong with you.
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** Speechless**
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Personal attack for a mild opinion, WOW!
PG-13 is full of sex and violence?
[LOTR, was PG-13 and so was Disney’s Pirates of the Caribbean, by the way]
   
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"You had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war."
-Winston Churchill- (to Neville Chamberlain)
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
-William Shakespeare, "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1
He who will not reason is a bigot. He who cannot is a fool. and he who dares not is a slave.
-Sir William Drummond- |
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Elmonster
Acolyte
Russia
49 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 17:42:02
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I can admit that FR novels have little sexual content, but i really can't admit that they aren't violent enough. An average FR novel has enough blood and killings, but i think that sometimes villians and ruffians are too cultured. They should use more rude words, that will make them look more natural...
p.s. J.R.R.Tolkien's Lord of the Rings has no sexual content and not very violent, nonetheless it is no children's book. |
I wished on the seven sisters
Bring me the wisdom of the age
All that's locked within the book of secrets
I longed for the knowledge of the sage...
Fires at Midnight, Blackmore's Night |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 17:45:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Okay, you know what? Stuff it. I don't need my reading to be filled with sex and gore. That's it. Period. You think you need that stuff for it to be entertaining, then there's something seriously wrong with you.
Whoah, someone reign the dragon back in!
I agree though, Bookwyrm. The gore and sex dont make the book mature, take a look at The Sapphire Crescent - a very mature read IMO, mainly because of the intrigue and storyline - not a disembowlment or flash of breast to be read! |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 17:49:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmonster
I can admit that FR novels have little sexual content, but i really can't admit that they aren't violent enough. An average FR novel has enough blood and killings, but i think that sometimes villians and ruffians are too cultured. They should use more rude words, that will make them look more natural...
p.s. J.R.R.Tolkien's Lord of the Rings has no sexual content and not very violent, nonetheless it is no children's book.
Quite right, Elmonster. I was slightly disappointed in how certain villains are portrayed when its clear they should be more gritty and foul in their speech and actions, recent examples being Kesk (the tannuruk from The Black Bouquet) and Ssaz Tam (from The Crimson Gold). Mighty fine books, none the less |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 17:50:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Magic Matt
Personal attack for a mild opinion, WOW!
PG-13 is full of sex and violence?
[LOTR, was PG-13 and so was Disney’s Pirates of the Caribbean, by the way]
But that wasn't what you were talking about. Besides, movie ratings are screwed. They always aim for the highest rating possible.
The Realms is already PG-13 -- a real PG-13, not like how Pirates was. And you were complaining that it was too tame? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Magic Matt
Seeker
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 17:59:03
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I also posted that I was fine with the PG-13 limit in FR, that Elaine Cunningham mentioned, but just thought they are not there yet, PG at most, I thought.
I did not say fill the books with blood and sex. I would not even go as far as Ed Greenwood goes with his vision of Alustriel, now’s that’s kinky.
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"You had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war."
-Winston Churchill- (to Neville Chamberlain)
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
-William Shakespeare, "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1
He who will not reason is a bigot. He who cannot is a fool. and he who dares not is a slave.
-Sir William Drummond- |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 18:09:31
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You want to know what you actually said? Perhaps you didn't mean it, but this is how it came out in my reading.
I have been a fantasy fan now for more than 27 years when I first read the LOTR in the 5th grade, and have been hooked on the Forgotten Realms since they started back in the 80’s.
Why isn't the Forgotten Realms more "mature"? There's barely any sex, and the violence isn't gory enough, the way it is in the stuff I like to read.
All of these are best selling fantasy authors, whose books all come out in ‘Hard Back’ first, and make their publishers $$$ because of the way they pander to people who like sex and gore rather than plot. The Forgotten Realms has authors who are as good as these others, but they are not as popular, why? Could it be that the FR has failed to grow to meet the demands of the unmatured reader?
I have noticed that recently there seems to be a harder edge to some of the FR books, “Twilight Falling” by Paul S. Kemp, is an example of this, and it is fantastic!
I, am wondering if this is a trend to bring FR into the more ‘main stream’ of fantasy fiction (and greater profitability), by adding pseudo-porn material. I hope it is, because I would hate to see this wonderful world that has given me so much pleasure, fade away because of lack of revenue.
Again, that might not have been what you meant. I'll give you that much slack. But is sure sounded like that. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 19:56:32
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I suspect that some current FR novels (like Dissolution) are indeed edgier than many of the older ones. At any rate, I can pretty much guarantee that, as a guy who broke in doing horror fiction, I could serve up some material that's a lot nastier still. I imagine that most other FR writers could, too.
But I wonder if FR fans would like the results. Even though each of us writers has his own voice, his own style, his own approach, isn't it nonetheless true to say that the Realms as a whole have an overall feel, a general tone? And doesn't that make them what they are, as much as the background info that Waterdeep is the greatest city, Mystra's the goddess of magic, etc.? If we go X-rated, perhaps there's a danger of losing that vibe. |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 20:24:33
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I like my Realms just the way they are, thank you. 
Richard, I wouldn't suggest changing your style at all! You are absolutely right about the whole Forgotten Realms "Feel". Though I do agree with the others, and think that some villians could be a little more... well, villainous.  |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 20:28:22
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| I know what you mean, Shadowlord. But that wasn't what Magic Matt was talking about increasing. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Magic Matt
Seeker
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 20:32:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I suspect that some current FR novels (like Dissolution) are indeed edgier than many of the older ones. At any rate, I can pretty much guarantee that, as a guy who broke in doing horror fiction, I could serve up some material that's a lot nastier still. I imagine that most other FR writers could, too.
But I wonder if FR fans would like the results. Even though each of us writers has his own voice, his own style, his own approach, isn't it nonetheless true to say that the Realms as a whole have an overall feel, a general tone? And doesn't that make them what they are, as much as the background info that Waterdeep is the greatest city, Mystra's the goddess of magic, etc.? If we go X-rated, perhaps there's a danger of losing that vibe.
_________________________________________________________________
Your, “The Shattered Mask”, is in the mail from Amazon so don’t spoil the ending, but I hope it’s not x-rated! PG / PG-13 would be fine for my taste.
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"You had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war."
-Winston Churchill- (to Neville Chamberlain)
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
-William Shakespeare, "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1
He who will not reason is a bigot. He who cannot is a fool. and he who dares not is a slave.
-Sir William Drummond- |
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Elmonster
Acolyte
Russia
49 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 20:38:28
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I agree with you Shadowlord, some FR villains are too polite...
And i also assume, that in general it isn't a good idea to increase sex/violence in Novels, but in some situations it can help depict place or event more vividly.
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I wished on the seven sisters
Bring me the wisdom of the age
All that's locked within the book of secrets
I longed for the knowledge of the sage...
Fires at Midnight, Blackmore's Night |
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Magic Matt
Seeker
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 20:47:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
I know what you mean, Shadowlord. But that wasn't what Magic Matt was talking about increasing.
I really wish you would not try to characterize my post, since you seem incapable of that without puerile vindictive! Your characterizations of my post have been without merit and have twisted and inserted your own views in paraphrasing my words. I have been incensed by your immature behavior.
Especially, since Alaundo had requested that we not go after each other further in this post.
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"You had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war."
-Winston Churchill- (to Neville Chamberlain)
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
-William Shakespeare, "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1
He who will not reason is a bigot. He who cannot is a fool. and he who dares not is a slave.
-Sir William Drummond- |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 20:56:38
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First of all, put down the thesaurus. Finding new ways of saying things doesn't make you wittier, must less seem more intelligent.
Second. I'm strongly opposed to your view, which I find childish and shallow. I see no reason not to point that out. You opened yourself up to this. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Magic Matt
Seeker
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 21:19:45
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Did you even read the post in whole, before attacking? You will see very early on that I thought a PG-13 was the correct level of adult content, way before you posted anything on this subject.
You, just attacked, then miss-characterized my post, I wrote nothing about having porn in the books.
And if you read some of what Ed Greenwood has mentioned that they have cutout, like characters taking off their cloths to smear mud on to stop biting insect (not even sexual in context), as in one of his books on Cormyr, etc., you would wonder at what the content level was.
I was civil, even after your attack, but then you would not let it go.
Now you criticize my ‘vocabulary’, ok, perhaps grad school has stilted my speech, so what?
No, that’s not true; I’ve always talked this way. Forget the last part then.
{I have noticed that recently there seems to be a harder edge to some of the FR books, “Twilight Falling” by Paul S. Kemp, is an example of this, and it is fantastic!} NO SEX & VIOLANCE IS NO MORE THAN NORMAL, but it has a harder edge to the plot, that is part of what I ment as well.
P.S. It would be nice, for the sake of the other people on this form, if we did not go about flaming each other. For the sake of harmony, I will leave you alone of you return the favor.
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"You had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war."
-Winston Churchill- (to Neville Chamberlain)
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
-William Shakespeare, "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1
He who will not reason is a bigot. He who cannot is a fool. and he who dares not is a slave.
-Sir William Drummond- |
Edited by - Magic Matt on 24 Mar 2004 21:44:50 |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 22:50:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
I know what you mean, Shadowlord. But that wasn't what Magic Matt was talking about increasing.
Well, I just gave my opinion. Since everyone feels free to give their opinions without regard for consequences, I did the same.... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 22:57:07
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Well met
Hmmmmmmm, obviously this is becoming too heated and caused many misunderstandings. I think i'll pop this scroll up on this top shelf (no not THAT sort of "top shelf" ).
Now put thy quills to better use, there be Realmslore to be researched!!  |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Why is FR so ‘G’- rated?
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