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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Oh and St Lalibela is described as some kind of elfin, faerie like goddess. Tazmikella also can take the form of a young elven maid. Mayhaps it was Tazmikella that augmented Gareth's sword (it seems silly to take a super powerful sword and replace it with a new one, more likely they enhanced its powers or unlocked them like some weapons of legacy thing).

Ilnezhara and Tazmikella were of course working against Zhengyi according to Promise of the Witchking so it seems possible they would aid Gareth. I'm guessing that if they directly acted against Zhengyi he would just send his considerable dragon allies against the two copper dragons.

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

My bad. In the mines of bloodstone adventure, deep underground is a lake where suddenly a random woman appears and bids Gareth dragonsbane throw his +5 holy avenger sword in.
When he does she gives him an enhanced +5 holy avenger called crusader.
That naked woman is called Lalibela and is hinted at being some kind of goddess of nixies. In Throne of Bloodstone she is called st Lalibela.

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Originally posted by sleyvas


Oh, gotcha, they did a whole "Lady of the Lake" thing. Cheesy, but I admit it would be fun as a player. I'd probably go with something without modifying the story. Make this "demigoddess" a demigod by definition... something like the daughter of Eldath. One thing to remember is that prior to the Time of Troubles, Eldath was on Toril in physical form (so was Mielikki... and she might work as well, though I think of Eldath more with Nixies, but Mielikki is more warlike). It might be interesting to stick children of several of these goddesses that were "prime bound" prior to the ToT around the world (thinking Eldath, Mielikki, Lurue, Nobanion, Torm were all DEFINITELY prime bound gods)

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quote:

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Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

My bad. In the mines of bloodstone adventure, deep underground is a lake where suddenly a random woman appears and bids Gareth dragonsbane throw his +5 holy avenger sword in.
When he does she gives him an enhanced +5 holy avenger called crusader.
That naked woman is called Lalibela and is hinted at being some kind of goddess of nixies. In Throne of Bloodstone she is called st Lalibela.

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I can't believe I missed a deity. Argh!
Oh, gotcha, they did a whole "Lady of the Lake" thing. Cheesy, but I admit it would be fun as a player. I'd probably go with something without modifying the story. Make this "demigoddess" a demigod by definition... something like the daughter of Eldath. One thing to remember is that prior to the Time of Troubles, Eldath was on Toril in physical form (so was Mielikki... and she might work as well, though I think of Eldath more with Nixies, but Mielikki is more warlike). It might be interesting to stick children of several of these goddesses that were "prime bound" prior to the ToT around the world (thinking Eldath, Mielikki, Lurue, Nobanion, Torm were all DEFINITELY prime bound gods... would expect similar with Shiallia, Hoar, Red Knight, Siamorphe, Sharess, Gwaeron Windstrom, Valkur.... plus of course the Mulan gods).

She basically imbues the weapon with the ability to cast heal, charm, & strength 1/day. Commune with her 1/day, plus gives the weapon intelligence and telepathy with its wielder. Then gives it the special power to disintegrate certain demons on a nat 20. At the cost of all their other magic items (minus armor and shield) being taken away (which for the "pregen" Gareth is a silver horn of valhalla and his existing holy avenger). Yeah, I'd go with somehow they take the magic from the other items to imbue the sword more.

From Mines of Bloodstone, in case anyone else comes along
The woman introduces herself as Lalibela, a demigoddess of the nixies. She gives the paladin a glowing sword, and all the paladin's other weapons and devices (except armor and shield) vanish from the shore.


From Throne of Bloodstone, powers of Crusader the Holy Avenger
Commune with minor goddess St. Lalibela 1/week

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:

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Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

My bad. In the mines of bloodstone adventure, deep underground is a lake where suddenly a random woman appears and bids Gareth dragonsbane throw his +5 holy avenger sword in.
When he does she gives him an enhanced +5 holy avenger called crusader.
That naked woman is called Lalibela and is hinted at being some kind of goddess of nixies. In Throne of Bloodstone she is called st Lalibela.

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Oh, gotcha, they did a whole "Lady of the Lake" thing. Cheesy, but I admit it would be fun as a player. I'd probably go with something without modifying the story. Make this "demigoddess" a demigod by definition... something like the daughter of Eldath. One thing to remember is that prior to the Time of Troubles, Eldath was on Toril in physical form (so was Mielikki... and she might work as well, though I think of Eldath more with Nixies, but Mielikki is more warlike). It might be interesting to stick children of several of these goddesses that were "prime bound" prior to the ToT around the world (thinking Eldath, Mielikki, Lurue, Nobanion, Torm were all DEFINITELY prime bound gods... would expect similar with Shiallia, Hoar, Red Knight, Siamorphe, Sharess, Gwaeron Windstrom, Valkur.... plus of course the Mulan gods).

She basically imbues the weapon with the ability to cast heal, charm, & strength 1/day. Commune with her 1/day, plus gives the weapon intelligence and telepathy with its wielder. Then gives it the special power to disintegrate certain demons on a nat 20. At the cost of all their other magic items (minus armor and shield) being taken away (which for the "pregen" Gareth is a silver horn of valhalla and his existing holy avenger). Yeah, I'd go with somehow they take the magic from the other items to imbue the sword more.

From Mines of Bloodstone, in case anyone else comes along
The woman introduces herself as Lalibela, a demigoddess of the nixies. She gives the paladin a glowing sword, and all the paladin's other weapons and devices (except armor and shield) vanish from the shore.


From Throne of Bloodstone, powers of Crusader the Holy Avenger
Commune with minor goddess St. Lalibela 1/week

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I can't believe I missed a deity. Argh!

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

The more i read on Bahamut the more i see "Bahamut is an archetype", this statement seems to have appeared from at least 2e onward.

It looks like most people assume an Archetype is just like a deity, but what exactly is an archetype and how does it differ from a deity (if they arent any different then why distinguish between them and say Bahamut is an archetype).

From an initial look it says that Bahamut allows his most devout followers to sacrifice themselves and become a lesser version of himself (an aspect i guess), these aspects are independent and free willed but also still seem to be part of or represent Bahamut.



Without knowing about a proper definition it seems that an archetype is an ideal form of being. The Platinum Dragon represents the ideal of all good dragons. He is not a deity that they need to worship, he exists as long as they exist, and it would seem that worthy beings on a planet may become the Platinum Dragon but only a material plane representation that is independent of the archetype itself.

Now there has always been a debate about whether deities extend across multiple spheres (for me they do not, there are several Banes and several Tyrs, they are not the same). What about Archetypes, i think archetypes do extend across multiple spheres, there is only one platinum dragon archetype across the whole multiverse, perhaps this is how demonlords and archdevils differ from deities (they are archetypes).


Anyone have any thoughts or quotes from various editions as to what an archetype may be and how it differs to deities.

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison



Aspects of Bahamut exist on multiple crystal spheres.

Bahamut does not require worship to survive (he went 20000+ years without any measurable worship on Toril)

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Depends upon how you view the multiverse and the planes i suppose.

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison


That leaves the breath weapons and other additional abilities like resistances, shape changing, etc. Thankfully George provided an answer when he detailed a dragon like juggernaut that the sarrukh had created during the 1000 year long war. Serpent Kingdoms details lots of grafts and i believe that many of the unusual abilities of the dragons came from grafts the sarrukh applied to their dragon like creations that then went on to breed with the true dragon survivors of the 1000 year war.

Just my theory, but it explains how Daurgothoth is able to acquire new breath weapons, he is using grafting techniques of ancient sarrukh, and modifying them to work on his undead physiology.

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Originally posted by Baltas

quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison


That leaves the breath weapons and other additional abilities like resistances, shape changing, etc. Thankfully George provided an answer when he detailed a dragon like juggernaut that the sarrukh had created during the 1000 year long war. Serpent Kingdoms details lots of grafts and i believe that many of the unusual abilities of the dragons came from grafts the sarrukh applied to their dragon like creations that then went on to breed with the true dragon survivors of the 1000 year war.

Just my theory, but it explains how Daurgothoth is able to acquire new breath weapons, he is using grafting techniques of ancient sarrukh, and modifying them to work on his undead physiology.

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That, an interestin idea. By the dragon-like juggernaut, do you mean maybe Orslinn "the Great Slave", or someonthing else?

[EDIT]

with Sarrukh, it's interesting some sources, including Io's first escription in Monster Mythology, stated Io as possibly an aspect fragment of the World Serpent. Asgorath appeared earlier, though the two were only identified explictly latter on (and confirmed to be one and the same by Ed, not just two combined and conflated deities, and further implied Asgorath's connection to the World Serpent, as the "World Dragon").

Asgorath was called a Primordial, though so was Ramenos (who also was mentioned as an aspect of the world serpent, if an "extremelly corrupted" one).

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