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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 : 22:10:20

i was thinking along similar lines, sibilant implies a hiss which is reptilian in nature.

The other word sent me in a different direction though (in the second paragraph), and the last sentence indicated a specific type.

Interestingly Cavil said the Grandfather of Assassins was a thousand years old and would live for another thousand years. Now that is almost certainly so much hyperbole, but perhaps there is a grain of truth in it and the Grandfather is incredibly long lived or has the potential for incredibly long life.

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 : 23:13:52

Hmm, perhaps then you mean a dragon, possibly a Brass, Crystal or Topaz Dragon?

[EDIT]

With Duergar, from what all I remember and read, they consider themselves dwarves, just have a (quite to increadibly) negative relationships with the rest of their kin (as well suffrace races), especially Shield Dwarves - their closest kin, who Duergar see as abandoning them to their fate, at the Illithids hands. They do though still trade with Gold Dwarves, if their interractions are not friendly, more of convinence/opportunity.

Edited by - Baltas on 23 Jul 2021 01:19:03

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 07:46:18

A dragon is exactly where I was going. Why talk in a hiss, why refer to an underground training complex as "my lair", why refer to himself in a weird way.

Then after that he sits down and has a chat with the heroes. Brass dragons love to talk, even with their enemies.

And lastly cavill saying he is ancient and could live for a thousand years.

Sounds like a dragon to me. A good dragon gone bad.

Anyone else think that the chief assassin of the citadel is referred to as "the Fist" is important, because I do.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11829 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 13:32:29

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

A dragon is exactly where I was going. Why talk in a hiss, why refer to an underground training complex as "my lair", why refer to himself in a weird way.

Then after that he sits down and has a chat with the heroes. Brass dragons love to talk, even with their enemies.

And lastly cavill saying he is ancient and could live for a thousand years.

Sounds like a dragon to me. A good dragon gone bad.

Anyone else think that the chief assassin of the citadel is referred to as "the Fist" is important, because I do.

On him living for a thousand years... from Bloodstone Pass

The mysterious Grandfather, head of the Assassin's Guild, is reputed to be immortal. His true face is always concealed by a mask. In actuality, on the death of the old Grandfather, a new one is chosen to take his place. The superstition that the Grandfather never dies is one of the Guild's many terror weapons.

his stats list him as a race human, class assassin, and 15th level

On him calling his chief assassin "the fist"... that's so common to that time period of writing (i.e. the fist, the hand, etc...) that it's a bit of a trope. I wouldn't read much into it.

That being said, if you want to make him a shapechanged dragon, and maybe he's the grandfather because there are dragonblooded a ninja-sorcerers in the citadel of assassins, it would make a good storyline.

Personally, if I were to rewrite the history, I'd turn him into a cast out "monk" who was trained at the Monastery of the Yellow Rose until he turned evil. I'd make him a monk/priest follower of Loviatar. I'd build up a who anti-Ilmater sentiment amongst these assassins, and perhaps a lot of these people are the cast off members of Damaran society.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 14:17:52

An outcast monk from the Order of the Yellow Rose is exactly what i'm intending to make him. Doesnt mean i cant also make him a dragon.

I get that he can and has been replaced since his death in 1359 DR, but we dont actually know that he has ever been replaced before. In fact we know absolutely nothing about him so i'm happy to use that single conversation as the basis for determining an identity.

We have the Grandmaster of Flowers, clearly related to the season of spring. I figure there are likely a Master of Winter, Master of Summer, and Master of Autumn in the Order as well. Each one relating to one of the four seasons (and therefore related to the 4 winds).

The Monastery of the Yellow Rose existed long before the monks inhabited it, they merely took over defence of its halls from the previous inhabitants, they also inherited a lot of their teachings and the hierarchy from the previous inhabitants as well.

The original Grandmaster was known as the Grandmaster of Butterflies. Butterflies symbolise the death of loved ones and the renewal of life after death. There are huge catacombs and ossuary's underneath the Monastery of the Yellow Rose so it already has a bit of a death theme in it.

Someone or something corrupted the Grandmaster of Butterflies and rather than focusing on the renewal of life after death he starts hastening the death of others. He gets cast out and takes for himself the title of Grandfather (Grandfather and Grandmaster are very similar in Damaran), and then begins training assassins using fighting techniques similar to the monks (hence the senior assassins being called the Fist - a terrible assassins weapon unless used by a trained monk). With the Grandfather's exile from the monastery they discard the title and create a new one from the season following on from winter.

Just a thought train i'm riding at the moment. We known Sammaster infiltrated the Monastery of the Yellow Rose and spent many years studying there. I figure another powerful magic user also did a similar thing a century ago and managed to leave behind legacies to corrupt the Grandmaster of Butterflies.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11829 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 19:05:14

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

An outcast monk from the Order of the Yellow Rose is exactly what i'm intending to make him. Doesnt mean i cant also make him a dragon.

I get that he can and has been replaced since his death in 1359 DR, but we dont actually know that he has ever been replaced before. In fact we know absolutely nothing about him so i'm happy to use that single conversation as the basis for determining an identity.

We have the Grandmaster of Flowers, clearly related to the season of spring. I figure there are likely a Master of Winter, Master of Summer, and Master of Autumn in the Order as well. Each one relating to one of the four seasons (and therefore related to the 4 winds).

The Monastery of the Yellow Rose existed long before the monks inhabited it, they merely took over defence of its halls from the previous inhabitants, they also inherited a lot of their teachings and the hierarchy from the previous inhabitants as well.

The original Grandmaster was known as the Grandmaster of Butterflies. Butterflies symbolise the death of loved ones and the renewal of life after death. There are huge catacombs and ossuary's underneath the Monastery of the Yellow Rose so it already has a bit of a death theme in it.

Someone or something corrupted the Grandmaster of Butterflies and rather than focusing on the renewal of life after death he starts hastening the death of others. He gets cast out and takes for himself the title of Grandfather (Grandfather and Grandmaster are very similar in Damaran), and then begins training assassins using fighting techniques similar to the monks (hence the senior assassins being called the Fist - a terrible assassins weapon unless used by a trained monk). With the Grandfather's exile from the monastery they discard the title and create a new one from the season following on from winter.

Just a thought train i'm riding at the moment. We known Sammaster infiltrated the Monastery of the Yellow Rose and spent many years studying there. I figure another powerful magic user also did a similar thing a century ago and managed to leave behind legacies to corrupt the Grandmaster of Butterflies.

Those terms come from the 1st edition monk. They had to fight to advance. Their level titles were (according to the PH), in order of level from 1st to 17th level

Novice
Initiate
Brother
Disciple
Immaculate
Master
Superior Master
Master of Dragons
Master of the North Wind
Master of the West Wind
Master of the South Wind
Master of the East Wind
Master of Winter
Master of Autumn
Master of Summer
Master of Spring
Grand Master of Flowers

Then there was this about advancing after 8th level

There can be only a limited number of monks above 7th level (Superior Master). There are three 8th level (Master of Dragons) and but one of each higher level. When a player character monk gains sufficient experience points to qualify him or her for 8th level, the commensurate abilities are attained only temporarily. The monk must find and defeat in single combat, hand-to-hand, without weapons or magic items, one of the 8th level monks - the White, the Green, or the Red. The same must be done at the ninth and higher levels. The loser of these combats loses enough experience points to place him or her at the lowest number possible to attain the level just beneath the new level. The monk character will know where to locate the higher level monks; and he or she must proceed immediately to do combat or else lose experience points equal to the number which will place him
or her at the lowest number possible to have attained the level just beneath that of the monk he or she should have sought out but did not. That is, the player character drops to 7th level in the above case and must then work upwards once again.

So, based on the above, there's at least 3 monks of each "level" (a white, a green and a red) in 1st edition. I'd have to dig, but I bet they make this division along the alignment side (i.e. LG, LN, LE). They obviously entirely got rid of this ruleset. It makes for an interesting idea though if there's a "grandmaster of flowers" in the various regions of Faerun where there are noted amounts of monks, and maybe they do spar for titles... and maybe like force users they're divided into at least 2 camps (good and evil). The main places I can think of with "monk" type monasteries seen are Damara, the edificant library before it fell, and down in Halruaa, and over in Thesk. I could definitely see some in Thay/Old Empires/Shining lands region too, though none immediately come to mind other than the kenkus mentioned in 4e. I could also see some in Calimshan and others with a different fighting style down in Chult, and deifnitely the utter east would fit for such (not to mention Kara-Tur and the hordelands of course).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 23 Jul 2021 19:09:49

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 19:21:02

Huh, had no idea the ranks came from some 1e rulebook, and master of dragons is in there too, even better

I think i'd prefer to customise it rather than rely wholesale on the list. Also having all monks everywhere follow the same hierarchy doesnt really work for me unless all monastic orders were created by the same thing.
Unless of course all monastic orders were created by dragons based off the teachings of Bahamut, but that doesnt work for me either. Better that just this one has titles listed in the FR sources (Flowers, Spring) and Summer, Autumn, Winter by association.

We've got a few monastic orders defined (sun soul, old ones, long death). Any religion that has a saint (or exarch) would work well for a monastic order, so there are bound to be lots in Calimshan, Tethyr and anywhere with Ilmater monasteries.

Cheers for the list though, very useful, and works well with the idea that the Monastery of the Yellow Rose was once used by metallic dragons in their fight against chromatics in Vaasa (long before humans arrived here)

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11829 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 19:27:11

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Huh, had no idea the ranks came from some 1e rulebook, and master of dragons is in there too, even better

I think i'd prefer to customise it rather than rely wholesale on the list. Also having all monks everywhere follow the same hierarchy doesnt really work for me unless all monastic orders were created by the same thing.
Unless of course all monastic orders were created by dragons based off the teachings of Bahamut, but that doesnt work for me either. Better that just this one has titles listed in the FR sources (Flowers, Spring) and Summer, Autumn, Winter by association.

We've got a few monastic orders defined (sun soul, old ones, long death). Any religion that has a saint (or exarch) would work well for a monastic order, so there are bound to be lots in Calimshan, Tethyr and anywhere with Ilmater monasteries.

Cheers for the list though, very useful, and works well with the idea that the Monastery of the Yellow Rose was once used by metallic dragons in their fight against chromatics in Vaasa (long before humans arrived here)

Hmmm, your point about Sammaster "infiltrating" the monastery of the Yellow Rose as well is interesting, given that in theory one of their titles is "Master of Dragons".

I agree too that there should be multiple different variant titles in different groups (Master of Butterflies, Master of Bumblebees, Mantis Master, Tiger Claw Master, etc....). It might be interesting if the Monastery of the Yellow Rose had different types of Flowers for the names of some of its ranks, etc....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 19:55:58

I was wondering about that, trying to tie the yellow rose symbol to dragons somehow but i've yet to find something (other than a picasso rendition of a golden dragons claw).

The flowers thing just doesnt make much sense compared to the rest of the titles (which all nicely align with Bahamut lore), or with Ilmater (what has suffering got to do with flowers).

Not a major problem either way but it would just be nice to tie everything about the monastery to metallic dragons.

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 20:39:05

The Monastery's of the Yellow Rose's symbol's implied origin in canon is a bit...strange. It's the Yellow Rose of Texas/Rosa 'Harison's Yellow'. It's due to Saint Sollars, being basically all but stated to be a Texan from 1980s Earth, before seemingly traveling in time and space to Faerun's past, being martyred and becoming a saint:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Saint_Sollars#Background

It may be a bit to silly though.

As I mentioned though it is implied The Throne of Bloodstone Saint Sollars serves Bahamut, not Ilmater there as I mentioned.

It could be changed Saint Sollars was a priest, warrior, paladin or monk, who worshipped Bahamut, became martyred, the monastery being named in his honor, after a yellow rose that grew in his homeland (were maybe Bahamut was worshipped by humans and demihumans?).

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 21:15:53

Ahh yes, i forgot the rose was linked to saint sollars as his symbol. However Saint Sollars has two symbols (the rose and the 5 pointed star)

I'm not certain there is any origin defined for Saint Sollars. But given that he is only found in Damara it seems likely that he is either home grown (Damaran) and relatively recent, or he is an import from Jhaamdath and quite ancient but remained solely with the Damaran people.

Given the complete isolation and lack of historic mention of Saint Sollars anywhere else i'd be tempted to say he was home grown and could have arisen entirely within the Monastery of the Yellow Rose (previously known as the Citadel of the White Worm).

Might need an Ilmater expert like George on this one.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2021 : 12:17:52

Come up with a few magic items to add flavour.

The Staff of the Demon Twist - Zhengyis gnarled oak staff from a RAS short story, allows him to move earth, also gave it powers to control trees and treants (of no use in Vaasa), and project an unholy aura of despair that reduces good divine power as well as making people despair.

Dappled Gem of the Nentyarchs - this is my attempt at explaining the white gem at the heart of Zhengyis wand of orcus.

Crusader - Gareth Dragonsbanes sword is a family heirloom over 100 years old, retrieved from the hoard of aspiradatus the red roar. It gets enchanted even further during the bloodstone wars by the lady of the lake (tazmikella or ilnezhara in disguise)

One curiosity I noted was Zhengyis talisman of orcus, which I'm going to use to explain how zhengyi can cast and control spells over a hundred miles away. Zhengyi made it, not orcus.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2021 : 19:25:07

Gareth Dragonsbane appears to be a war hero from the Vaasan war (I need a name for this war, any suggestions).

According the the adventures he had lands, wealth, and soldiers and lost them all during the war.

His name was acquired by his family for their deeds (dragonslaying).

Dragon encounters in Damara have been rare until recently (when Zhengyi appeared).

I'm thinking the Dragonsbanes founded an order of knights that was dedicated to dragon slaying. They were very successful and so there are few dragons in Damara and therefore the order has dwindled.

In the novellette (if they should ever happen upon my lair) Gareth Dragonsbane sends about 10 knights and 50 men at arms to liberate palischuk, they end up fighting Urshula, they all have experience of fighting dragons. This happened in the period before Gareth was King but before Zhengyi was slain.

In the Rite it mentions Knights of the Order but they are not Paladins of the Golden Cup.

So put it all together and I have the Platinum Order as a secular Knighthood established by the Baen noble house (now known as Dragonsbane) that is dedicated to fighting dragons.

It diminished to a score of members during the Vaasan war but was greatly revitalised following Gareths accession because he is one of the masters if the order by right of his birth.

I chose Platinum Order as a nod to Bahamut, because the metallic dragons of the region are engaged in a war for dominance with the chromatic and are using the humans to help win the war. Also there is a group like the platinum brotherhood in abeir full of dragon born that I think fulfils a similar role

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2021 : 21:54:49

So, pondering a what if scenario, trying to imagine why might Bahamut be associated with the Monastery of the Yellow Rose.

It's a bit of a meandering though train but bear with me.

So Tiamat and Bahamut have been having a war for a long time, but we have several distinct phases to this dragon fall war and different names attached to them, so what if it wasnt really bahamut fighting (or even alive) for all those phases / battles.

If I recall correctly we have Xymor and Bahamut fighting in the beginning. Then things tail off and the dragons forget about them.

Then more recently we have bahamut and tiamat kick off the fight again about 4000 years ago.

So what if Xymor and Bahamut are two entirely different beings.

Then we have Tamara and Lendys who are also platinum dragons.

What if a Platinum dragon is not a racial subtype of dragon at all but is a transformation, like humans can become sharn or phaerimm, metallic dragons can become platinum dragons.

So Xymor was the original Platinum dragon (perhaps Tamara and Lendys merged together to form Xymor.

If Xymor became a god, he would certainly die because nobody believes in him for 30000 years, that's the rule for gods.

Then in more modern times we have Bahamut appearing. What if the Monastery of the yellow rose (long before it was known as such, back when it was known as the Citadel of the White Worm) is the place where one or more dragons achieved enlightenment and were transformed into Bahamut the Platinum Dragon.

That could explain the significance of Damar to Bahamut. It could also explain the resurgence of the Dragonfall War (I dont buy the Marduk story personally because it's different pantheons, but if Marduk was also a dragon in disguise trying to achieve enlightenment and failed or died too soon that could explain the link between the Bahamut and Marduk).

You could even speculate that when chromatic dragons attempt a similar thing they become multi headed creatures (because they are selfish and refuse to give up their individual identity).

Now all I need to do is find a yellow flower that might be used or needed for spiritual enlightenment or transformations.

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 01:38:30

With Bahamut, curiously it is kinda implied in the original Draconomicon he is an avatar of Lendys, Tamara or Xymor; or alternatelly an avatar of a god composite of which Lendys, Tamara or Xymor (or at least Tamara and Lendys) are aspects of. It's notable it could be told Lendys embodies the Justice seeking aspects of Bahamut, Tamara his Mercy.

(specifically, it's stated in he original Draconomicon Bahamut and Tiamat might be avatars of the mentioned Dragon Gods in the book, which though does not include yet Bahamut or Tiamat - Bahamut being implied as I described above).

This would fit into your theory of Xymor (or maybe even Bahamut) being a merger of Lendys and Tamara.

This of course would a bit contradict Bahamut being only a lesser God - though all three - Lendys, Tamara or Xymor - are described as Greater Gods in the Draconomicon. Though later canon presents Xymor and Tamara as Intermediate Gods (latter 2E, Cult of the Dragon), or even Lesser Gods (3e).

It's also notable Xymor curiously was not described as a Platinum Dragon - but as a "a huge dragon wrapped in a scintillating aura of light so brilliant that it is impossible to tell his color.", while both Lendys and Tamara were explictly described as Platinum Dragons i the original Draconomicon.

Draconomicon also presents an intereting version of a creation myth - presenting Bahamut as a figure rebelling against Asgorath - who is in the same myth implied to be the same as Tiamat. Though this is most probably just a Red Dragon perspective.

In Candlekeep Compendium's fourth issue's article, Reign of Dragons, Brian R. James presented Asgorath dying as being split into 3 beings -
Xymor, Yaldabaoth, and Null (Xymor being originally Lawful Neutral, Yaldabaoth Chaotic Neutral, and Null True Neutral). (Asgorath eventually reformed independantly from his/her's three "split apects")

Yaldabaoth eventually became Tiamat, while Xymor created Bahamut as the first Metallic Dragons (with the help of coatls) from landwyrms, Bahamut being the first King of Justice (though he was already born as a Platinum Dragon). Tiamat killed Xymor, with Bahamut though aspecnding and becoming a god in his creators place.

I mention this, as in the official The Grand History of the Realms, elements of the Reign of Dragons were included (like Nagamat - the first Chromatic on Toril and Polychromatic Dragon - Tiamat latter warped her form into into a Polychromatic Dragon, after Xymor killed Nagamat. Though Nagamat had one head, and could change shift his scales to any colors, and powers of any Chromatic Dragon he color he took). With The Grand History of the Realms, (specifically and curiously) stating the slaying of Nagamat (c. �29500 DR), incited the war between the followers of Bahamut and Tiamat.

The idea on Nethir Vale, and Abeir (specifically, among Abeiran Dragons), that Io/Asgorath/Asgoroth split into Bahamut and Tiamat, seems to be inpired by the history presented in the Reign of Dragons article.

Edited by - Baltas on 26 Jul 2021 02:28:20

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11829 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 02:38:33

I would not try very much to link Bahamut and the Monastery of the Yellow Rose for his origins. Just saying... it doesn't feel like a good fit, especially when the only reason its being considered is that a title that was "generic" for monks in 1e is being used for Bahamut in a non-canon card game. I stress on the word origins in that... I don't have a problem with something like "Bahamut had to take an avatar during the ToT and he took over the body of the monk at the monastery of the yellow rose and then just meditated and didn't reveal his true nature, while setting some wheels in motion to help aid Damara" or something similar.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36804 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 02:46:35

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

With Bahamut, curiously it is kinda implied in the original Draconomicon he is an avatar of Lendys, Tamara or Xymor; or alternatelly an avatar of a god composite of which Lendys, Tamara or Xymor (or at least Tamara and Lendys) are aspects of. It's notable it could be told Lendys embodies the Justice seeking aspects of Bahamut, Tamara his Mercy.

(specifically, it's stated in he original Draconomicon Bahamut and Tiamat might be avatars of the mentioned Dragon Gods in the book, which though does not include yet Bahamut or Tiamat - Bahamut being implied as I described above).

Are we looking at the same Draconomicon? Aside from the fact that Tamara and Lendys are both described as platinum, I couldn't find anything connecting them to Bahamut -- openly or implied. I similarly didn't see anything suggesting that either Bahamut or Tiamat were avatars.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 03:01:26

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Are we looking at the same Draconomicon? Aside from the fact that Tamara and Lendys are both described as platinum, I couldn't find anything connecting them to Bahamut -- openly or implied. I similarly didn't see anything suggesting that either Bahamut or Tiamat were avatars.

Well, on page 58:

quote:
Sages continue to debate the true nature of Bahamut. Is he the archetype of all good dragonkind,
the ideal of which all other dragons are merely shadows? Is he an avatar of a greater deity?

Of the members of the Dragon pantheon resented in draconomicon, Lendys, Tamara ad Xymor each if described as if Bahamut could be an avatar of them. Lendys and Tamara specifically, as I wrote, embody two aspects of Bahamut's personality (his desire for justice and empathy respectivelly), with thouh seemingly Xymor fitting Bahamut the best (up to being resident in the Seven Heavens of Celestia), but was not described as a Platinum Dragon.

Being the Platinum Dragon is all other sources before this, was unique to Bahamut (and Paladine, but they may be the same being, or at least alternate versions of each other).

At least I percieved such implication (not statement though), but of course YMMV.

Edited by - Baltas on 26 Jul 2021 03:24:19

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36804 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 03:58:14

Ah, okay. I did not read that the same as you, but I shan't sweat it. YMMV, as you say.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 21:12:35

Well nothing is a sacred cow as far as I'm concerned, and I'm not taking anything away, just trying to explain Bahamuts 30000 year absence and survival, as well as during his sudden revival why take an interest in Damara.

Looking at Xymor and Bahamut in isolation they have different appearances, different religious goals (I believe xymor focuses more on justice with mercy), they have separate named spells (I've seen a Light of Xymor spell and a Blessing of Bahamut spell), they may even have separate clergies (difficult to define a clergy with draconic worshippers but Halavan was a member or leader of the Talons of Justic (in the year of the Dracorage novels) and I believe worshipped Xymor.

So it looks like Xymor was for dragons and Bahamut was for people. Bahamut even had an old man form so that he could walk among people without scaring them.

Sooo, Bahamut is a more recently arisen platinum dragon. The wiki entry on bahamut even lists Xymor as one half of Bahamut as though he is different to Bahamut somehow

The legends say there is only one platinum dragon but that seems clearly incorrect, we have Lendys, Tamara, Xymor, and Bahamut, clearly more than one. But you could spin it that the Platinum Dragon is like a magical transformation, an apex form (sharn or phaerimm), but rather than merging with another being to achieve transformation, what if you achieve enlightenment and become part of this Platinum Dragon.

So Xymor is the Platinum Dragon, becomes a godlike being, lasts through the Dragonfall War and fades into nothingness (as you do when no one believes in you).

Marduk is next, transforms into the Platinum Dragon, But being trapped in material form (by the planar barrier) he cant ascend. However, around the time of his death another also becomes the Platinum Dragon (Bahamut, an old monk in the Citadel of the White Worm).

Bahamut and Marduk become the same being and also revitalise Xymors astral husk.

So the monks of the yellow rose are just following the path laid out by bahamut several millennia ago.

Need to do lots more work investigating and researching it. I originally had tiamat the dragon queen and tiamat from unther as separate beings (because the logistics of them being the same didn't work with the planar barrier), but this may mean they are same or similar beings as well (perhaps not, I cant see chromatic merging identities, and the fact that unther tiamat had only 3 heads says to me she is still different but in the same type of form or transformation)

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 01:29:03

It's possible that there were multiple Platinum, and Polychromatic Dragons.

Sources though, including the original Draconomicon state Tiamat and Bahamut, were as long on Toril, as Dragons were on it. From Draconomicon, pages 58, and 59:

quote:
Certainly, he
is a unique creature who, if legends
tell a-right - has existed from
the first day that dragons peared on Toril
(or any other
planet).

quote:
Tiamat the Chromatic Dragon is
similar in nature to Bahamut; nobody
knows for sure whether she
is a natural creature, the Queen of
Evil Dragons, a demon, or a deity
of some kind. She, too, is reputed
to have been in existence from the
first moment that dragonkind emerged
upon Toril.

Reading through the original Draconomicon, is has also an explanation of Bahamut and Tiamat, that each is an "archetype" (ie about Bahamut, the eexcpt from page , towards which each dragon, even maybe Dragon Gods (sans Asgorath, and maybe Null and Zorquan) which is an alternate explanation to one I presented above why Lendys and Tamara are Platinum Dragons - as they are so close to the archetype of Bahamut, rather than maybe Bahamut being an avatar of (either of) them..

Further info (from page 5 of Draconomicon):

quote:
And here the conversation must
turn to dragons, for in these species
the diffusion theory seems to
be the only suitable explanation
for their wide-spread existence.
Dragons are the only creatures for
which there exist archetypal
forms. In dragonkind, these forms
are Bahamut, the Platinum
Dragon, and Tiamat, the Chromatic
Dragon.

quote:
Some sages truly believe this observation
to be representative of
the truth of the matter. According
to this theory, the very existence of
the two archetypal forms - Bahamut
and Tiamat -is responsible
for the existence of dragons
throughout the multiverse. In metaphorical
language, dragons are
the shadows that the archetypes
cast across the planes. As shadows
are, in a sense, subsets of the creatures
casting them - as they must
be, since shadows are two-dimensional
- so are the "shadows" of
the dragon archetypes subsets of
those archetypes - characteristics
and powers.

It's also described a curious spell:

quote:
Contact Archetype
(Divination)
Level: 7
Range: 0
Component: V
Duration: Special
Casting Time: 4 rounds
Area of Effect: Special
Saving Throw: None
This spell is similar to the normal
wizard spell contact other plane,
except that with it a dragon can
contact only one of the two archetypes
of dragonkind - Bahamut
the Platinum Dragon or Tiamat
the Chromatic Dragon.

This could also explain some other "Polychromatic Dragons", Kereska, whose color is described as changing, kinda like much latter Nagamat.
(if Kereska rather doesn't fully embody the Tiamat archetype).

This would mean that there were muliple "Bahamuts" and "Tiamats", or rather dragons who embodied each archetype.

Xymor might had become the first, or one of the first embodiments (on Toril) of Bahamut/the Platinum Dragon archetype, much latter Marduk became another in war with Tiamat, and then another.

(Lendys and Tamara could be embodiments of the Bahamut archetype before, or after Xymor, or maybe just became very close to the Bahamut archetype, without fully embodying it).

Nagamat, and Yaldabaoth possibly became the first and second (or vice versa), emodiments of Tiamat/the Polychromatic Dragon archetype, tens of milennia latter, the Untheric Queen of Chaos becoming another embodiment of Tiamat, and after her death Tchazzar became another, if maybe taken over by a previous holder of the archetype, or aabsorbed into an amalgamation of the previous holders personalities. Or he lied about being subsumed by Tiamat, just took one the name of Tiamat (if compelled to do so, after embodying the archetype), and latter created an avatar to pose as an separate Tchazzar.
(It might also interest you Tchazzar, to further his apoteosis, did indeed devour and absorb two other Chromatic dragons Gestaniius and Skuthosiin, and then transformed into Tiamat - in canon, he fully was taken over by her, but we can speculate).

It could also explain why Xymor is unknown on others worlds (as are to a degree Lendys and Tamara), yet Bahamut and Tiamat are known, and "appear" around the multiverse.

Or at least that's another of my theories

Edited by - Baltas on 27 Jul 2021 02:11:33

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 07:43:00

Well it's starting to work for me. Each crystal sphere is a slightly different version of a prime world (now gone), but every single one of them could have the same or similar archetype.

Paladine and takhisis are very similar. The dragon king of Athas is that archetype gone horribly wrong.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11829 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 13:21:37

Kereska the Wonderbringer reminds me of Mystra, and often made me wonder if there are some link between the two.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6666 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 14:03:04

Just because I've written some stuff on Ilmater hardly makes me an "Ilmatari expert". St Sollars is an in-house TSR joke. Ed Sollars worked for TSR and was laid off twice - hence the "Twice Martyred" moniker. Clearly, he was also from Texas. Nothing like a bit of TSR whimsy to make life difficult Realmslore-wise. There's lots of ways you can go with him. I have a wacky idea off the top of my head, but I'll chat to Gary in private about that.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 14:08:13

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Kereska the Wonderbringer reminds me of Mystra, and often made me wonder if there are some link between the two.

Indeed, Kereska even having a star as a symbol, like Mystryl, and Mystra.

Maybe Kereska was, or became an early embodiment of the Weave (and Mystra/Mystryl), before becoming a separate being, or Mystryl sponsored Kereska's ascension (possibly turning her away from the path of beoming the Ploychromatic Dragon).

Edited by - Baltas on 27 Jul 2021 15:23:17

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36804 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 15:42:32

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Just because I've written some stuff on Ilmater hardly makes me an "Ilmatari expert". St Sollars is an in-house TSR joke. Ed Sollars worked for TSR and was laid off twice - hence the "Twice Martyred" moniker. Clearly, he was also from Texas. Nothing like a bit of TSR whimsy to make life difficult Realmslore-wise. There's lots of ways you can go with him. I have a wacky idea off the top of my head, but I'll chat to Gary in private about that.

-- George Krashos

You could have St. Sollars have left the Realms for a while, wound up in Texas long enough to sound like a caricature of a native, and then return...

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36804 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 15:44:54

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Kereska the Wonderbringer reminds me of Mystra, and often made me wonder if there are some link between the two.

I've long wondered the same.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11829 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 19:15:28

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Just because I've written some stuff on Ilmater hardly makes me an "Ilmatari expert". St Sollars is an in-house TSR joke. Ed Sollars worked for TSR and was laid off twice - hence the "Twice Martyred" moniker. Clearly, he was also from Texas. Nothing like a bit of TSR whimsy to make life difficult Realmslore-wise. There's lots of ways you can go with him. I have a wacky idea off the top of my head, but I'll chat to Gary in private about that.

-- George Krashos

You could have St. Sollars have left the Realms for a while, wound up in Texas long enough to sound like a caricature of a native, and then return...

If you're going to do that, I recommend an alternative, which kind of mirrors the "official" history of Sleyvas. Have him go to the realm of Ravenloft that's known as "The Masque of the Red Death". It would put him in the right era without time travel issues. I used this a LOOOooongggggggg time ago to explain away why Sleyvas would have "six-shooters" that he used (along with enspelled bullets that held an electric charge via the old charge spell). I had fun with it at the time, but man its dated.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2021 : 08:36:32

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Just because I've written some stuff on Ilmater hardly makes me an "Ilmatari expert". St Sollars is an in-house TSR joke. Ed Sollars worked for TSR and was laid off twice - hence the "Twice Martyred" moniker. Clearly, he was also from Texas. Nothing like a bit of TSR whimsy to make life difficult Realmslore-wise. There's lots of ways you can go with him. I have a wacky idea off the top of my head, but I'll chat to Gary in private about that.

-- George Krashos

A chat I'm most looking forward to, the wacky ideas are the best

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2021 : 21:17:13

Read the Bahamut entry on the FR wiki in detail, i didnt realise the idea of Bahamut being an archtype came from there, and that other dragons sacrifice themselves to become aspects of Bahamut. Now this might be a 4e idea but it works quite well with my idea of other dragons changing themselves into platinum dragons through meditation etc.

I even have the names of several candidates that have done so in the past. Xymor, Marduk, Bahmat (comes from the Draconomicon 2e).

I was actually looking for examples of Bahamatian organisations because i dont think we have an FR writeup for Bahamut and his worship. Looked at the Talons of Justice, dedicated to Xymor and has an entirely silver dragon membership up until 1374 DR. The goals of the Talons of Justice are not entirely clear but it sounds like they are made to fight evil dragons.

I'm thinking that the Talons of Justice were an old religious order of Xymor that survived the 20+ millennia long absence of Xymor when he was forgotten (gods die if they are not worshipped). I'm guessing silvers kept up the name but did not continue to worship Xymor.

Then we have the Platinum Cadre which exist in Tymanther and seem to be the remains of another religious order that the dragonborn have taken to prove they came from a good origins.

I've already used the name the Platinum Order as a semi secular organisation of Damara dedicated to fighting evil dragons but i'm thinking the Platinum Cadre could be Bahamut's religious order (the Talon's of Justice being Xymor's old religious order). The Platinum Cadre in Abeir believes that not all dragons are evil, i'm thinking that the Platinum Cadre in Toril is meant to show other dragons the way to achieve enlightenment and become the Platinum Dragon, but also that not all dragons are evil, anyone can be redeemed, they should try and save their chromatic cousins from Tiamat, not just destroy them (although evil always needs to be fought).

So Platinum Cadre dedicated to fighting Tiamat, redeeming chromatic dragons where possible, and showing all dragon kind how to achieve salvation / enlightenment. The Platinum Cadre of course allows members of any draconic subrace, not just silvers.

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