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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Felix's story irks me.

So its 1357 DR, the army of the Witch King is on the north side of the Goliad River. The Army of Damara (is it called the Army of Bloodstone at this point?) is on the south side of the Goliad River.

Neither army can make much headway because the river is a significant tactical obstacle. Any army trying to cross the river would be vulnerable to attack and would have difficulty retreating.

Now the Ford of Goliad allows crossing of the River Goliad, its name implies a shallow crossing where people can ford the river.


So Felix supposedly comes up with a plan to use a wand to allow the army secret passage across the river. Now a wand has limited charges so its unlikely it can teleport the entire army, nor can it help them all walk on water so presumably the wand lowers the level of the river so it is crossable. My biggest problem with this however is that the river is already crossable at the Ford of Goliad where they are all arrayed against one another.

Nonetheless, the army of Damara begins to cross the river. The Witch King's army waits for a while and then attacks catching the bulk of the army in the river. Which implies that whatever deception was being used didnt work, and Virdin must have known it hadnt worked as his army waded through the river, and then the army was somehow destroyed as the Witch King's forces slaughtered those trapped on the north side, and from the sound of it those in the water continued to wade across to be slaughtered, and then those on the south side waited around for the Witch King's army to cross the river and slaughter them as well.

It just doesn't make sense, what kind of an idiot attacks across a river against a numerically superior force (fighting goblinoids the assumption is always there are more goblinoids). What kind of an idiot uses a wand to cross a river and then when it clearly isnt working carries on anyway. Now thankfully it is all phrased as though Felix might not have actually done as history says and perhaps he was merely condemned because some people he knew were connected to the Citadel of Assassins (a connection he may not have even known about, they could have just been drinking buddies).




I'm thinking the plan was to use the wand (a wand once owned by Ashaba) to control the level of the river, allowing the Damaran army to cross the river at will with ease and use the river as a weapon against Zhengyi's army if they tried to cross.
The wand isnt a fake, its real. They stop the river, and start to cross. The wand runs out of charges and the river floods back. Those on the north side are attacked by the Witch King's forces, while those on the south side of the river are flanked by a force of cavalry 4000 strong that was stationed in Helmsdale and crossed there onto the south side of the river.

Felix seemingly disappears (he is never mentioned again in the sourcebook), and then gets blamed when his connections to the Citadel of Assassins are discovered presumably following the spate of assassinations meant to finish off those nobles that would not swear fealty to the Witch King.

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Going through the old adventures, didnt realise they were originally written for Oerth before being shoehorned into FR.

First thing in Bloodstone Pass is the Circus of Doctor Trundles. That name wont do, so Doktorr Trundlesk it is.

This guy seems nice enough, taking his menagerie of creatures around to show everyone, but take a closer look at the inventory

Lamia, nominally intelligent creature
Xorn, intelligent creature
Foxwoman (lycanthrope) able to change shape into an elf - this sounds more like a lythari. Definitely intelligent, they keep it trapped in animalistic form
And last of all is an ancient blue dragon. Highly intelligent.

Now Doctor Trundles would have to be a lot more powerful than he is displaying in order to capture and imprison an ancient blue dragon. Or alternatively (but unlikely) the blue dragon is working with Doctor Trundles.

But regardless, Doctor Trundles seems a bit of a jerk to go around capturing intelligent and sentient creatures and keeping them in tiny cages to parade in front of people to make money.

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison


Foxwoman (lycanthrope) able to change shape into an elf - this sounds more like a lythari.

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from AD&D2 MM:

A foxwoman is an elven-appearing woman who is able to transform herself into a silver fox form or a silver-furred humanoid (vixen) form with a fox’s head. They are extremely self-centered.
The female elven form of the foxwoman is extremely beautiful.

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Sounds like an attempt to out reproduce humans by converting them to elves and it went wrong.

Definitely sounds like a star elf thing to do.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

possibly some variant lythari from Kara-tur instead of the hordelands who were exposed to some kind of divine curse?

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Why does it have to have anything to do with lythari? Lythari aren't the only critters that have an animal form and a humanoid form, but nothing in the middle. Wolfweres, jackalweres, swanmays, selkies, song dragons; this all come to mind immediately.

Tring to force this connection is just complicating things.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by sleyvas

possibly some variant lythari from Kara-tur instead of the hordelands who were exposed to some kind of divine curse?

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Why does it have to have anything to do with lythari? Lythari aren't the only critters that have an animal form and a humanoid form, but nothing in the middle. Wolfweres, jackalweres, swanmays, selkies, song dragons; this all come to mind immediately.

Tring to force this connection is just complicating things.

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Am I right in thinking Bahamut has an association with the four winds somewhere in his lore. Are these the same four winds that one would associate with the four seasons

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Originally posted by Baltas

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Am I right in thinking Bahamut has an association with the four winds somewhere in his lore. Are these the same four winds that one would associate with the four seasons

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Well specifically the North Wind, though the original Draconomicon stated Bahamut's palace is "beyond the East Wind" (though in Dragon #272 it's descibed as being beyond the North Wind), and in Bahamut's palace there are gates leading to each of the four winds (as described in Planes of Law), each gate guarded by a warden archon. Suggesting indeed a connection to the 4 Winds.


- Wooly Rupert, - sleyvas

With Foxwomen connection with Kara-Tur, in the original 1985 Oriental Adventures, did state Foxwomen are present in Kara-Tur (as sen on encounter tables). It isn't a place holder, as Hu Hsien and Hengeyokai are introduced in the same book.
This also means they are one of the two noted "elven" or or at least directly elf-related races/creatures in Kara-Tur - along with Maraloi, and their descendants.

It's also curious Maraloi descendants have can have very light, even white hair, or white streaked hair (ie Ayana No-Shui). While Foxwomen have silver, or silver strocked hair. Hmmm...

With Lythari, it is curious one population (Vil Adanrath) is present in the Endless Wastes, close to Kara-Tur.

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Wasnt much of interest in Bloodstone Wars so skipped to Throne of Bloodstone.

Now as far as I'm aware adventures cannot be considered canon because their end results are mutable but several things strike me as better reasons why the results stated in the Bloodstone sourcebook should not and indeed cannot be considered to have happened.

Number one is this adventure allows players to reach level 100 and the heroes of the Bloodstone Wars are not level 100 so it is likely they did not do the events as stated in the novel.

More importantly the adventure appears to have the players descend to Orcus' layer (which was 333 at the time - no idea if it's still the same) starting from the first layer. So they somehow navigate through the endless and maze like fathoms of the abyss, wander through innumerable layers filled with infinite demons (with the possibility of fighting bayonet and other demon lords).
Then they get to Orcus' layer, navigate that realm despite being living mortals, find the capital of the layer, stealth inti his palace and pinch his wand.
There is a reason the adventure goes up to level 100 for players, because you could not survive such a journey otherwise.


So, because Gareth Dragonsbane is only level 20, he could not survive the journey through all the layers of the abyss, therefore logic dictates the heroes did not do it. So Celedon and Riordan must have concocted the tale about their trek (something not out of their character).

It seems more likely they defeated the Witch King, took his wand from him and went through the portal to tiamat's lair (it was already pointed there) and defeat an avatar or aspect of tiamat set as guard (difficult but not impossible).

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"Welcome to my kingdom," the old man says in a sibilant whisper. "As you may have guessed, I am he who is known as the Grandfather of Assassins. My loyal servant Cavil has done well by luring you here.
"Now that you have entered my lair, you shall never leave alive. Yet I would have some sport with you before you die. To start, I will answer any single question you ask of me."

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