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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Dec 2016 : 19:36:48
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The only problem I have with all of that is that you state "Killing a mother cyst kills all the spreading ganglia and demoncysts attached", and yet they can also exist independently, which means that attaching itself to a 'mother cyst' would do nothing for it and create a potential weakness.
I think ALL 'Demonscysts' should act as 'mothercysts', should there be room to grow, making them the same thing, in essence. Thus, they should not gain a vulnerability by attaching themselves to another (greater?) cyst.
Don't cysts have levels? What if there are level '0' cysts (proto-cysts) that still have some of the benefits but can be destroyed by killing the mother cyst? The other option would be to say that applies to level 1 Demoncysts, but that means there can be no independent L1 cysts, which goes against written lore (but its a minor point). We could either add another tier - which adds somewhat unnecessary baggage - or we could fudge the RAW a wee bit. Your call.
I'm really taken with the Demoncysts thing (and how I expanded on it as a way for some outer planes to 'absorb' mass from others) - I would apply some of this to other, similar phenomena (like maybe rolling those Weave-taps from Paul Kemp's novels into them). I could also see 'Fenynodes' working in a similar fashion, and perhaps be a deterrent to other types of cysts - the Fey were always about 'The Balance' of nature (NOT 'nature itself', thats a common misconception).
Thus, druids might encourage the growth of Feynodes (faerie places of power, like mushroom rings), in order to prevent nearby demoncysts from entering their domain. 'Balance' is actually part of 'Order' (NOT 'law'), which is the antithesis of 'Chaos'.
And since I am now thinking about Feynodes (and to a lesser degree Mystra's Weave), I am considering that maybe all these nodes/cysts can act as pathways?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Dec 2016 19:37:50 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2016 : 19:46:16
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IIRC according To Champions of Ruin Eltab being bout to Toril is what caused to formation of the Demoncyst's. It's literally the 248th layer of the Abyss BOUND to Toril in places. Bind Orcus or Demogorgon and their layer's would bleed over into Toril. IIRC in the Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep: Circle of Skulls novel the Antagonist was trying to merge Toril and the Nine Hells in a similar manner...
Food for thought... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 20 Dec 2016 23:36:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2016 : 20:07:41
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Which goes along with what I was saying about the Outer Planes trying to 'eat' everything else (returning the universe to its pre-multiverse, UNstructured, primal state).
About my last post - I suppose we could also say that only L5 Demoncysts could grow ganglia - that might work. It would still mean that the newer, 'Brood-Cysts' would all be vulnerable, and unable to operate independently (unless we say that if they were created naturally(?!), instead of through ganglia, they are immune to this (because they are being powered by Eltab and his crew, rather than ganglia). A little convoluted, but it could work. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Dec 2016 20:08:04 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2016 : 16:23:49
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My thoughts on all that is that the 'Pathways' must be attuned to the creature using it. Thus, demons could obviously use demoncysts, Fey could use 'Fairy Paths', elemental beings could use Elemental Nodes (including genasi), etc, etc... but other types of creatures or beings would have to attune themselves, usually through a major ritual (although all of that would be dependent upon the level of the being in question).
Which is why Elminster could so easily move from portal to portal, whether 'connected' or not. Faerūn's plethora of gates are actual 'hacks' into the system of The Path of Light & Darkness, which is part of The Weave, and El is attuned to the Weave itself. Basically, the 'Gates' - and naturally occurring portals - are just 'Weave Nodes'.
Moonwells would be another type of Node/Cyst, but they would be a special case. They are more like 'generic nodes' that can themselves be attuned to a certain plane/power source (which explains how they can be 'corrupted' and re-attuned in some of the lore). I'm thinking they are something akin to a 'primal cyst', left-over from the first world.
Do fiends still have 'Type' numbers as they did in 1e/2e? I would make it that a demon could only use a cyst ½ its level, rounded up, so Type 9 & 10 demons would need a level 5 Cyst. For mages, I would use their spell level (NOT char. lev.). Its a good 'control factor', and it makes sense - only so much 'power' can be pushed through a node. You overload the system and you could blow the thing up.
Unless you're Elminster... but he's just cool that way.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Dec 2016 16:32:14 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 21:37:38
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Demoncysts
The Demoncysts are believed by experts in the field of ancient history, demon lore, and the secret evils of the world to be a manifestation of the binding of a demon lord to the planet Toril.
Many of these demoncysts were indeed brought into existence when a binding of unprecedented power and evil was performed over 1000 years ago in the lands that would one day be Impiltur. However there are works of the ancient Narfelli that show such cysts had been created many times in the preceding years across the lands occupied by the Narfell Empire as a means to protect its borders and hide a reserve of shock troops around for times of need.
Recent discoveries have found demoncysts located on the edge of the Vast (and unconfirmed reports that the mage cults of Thay have a new method of summoning demons that utilises a strange growth in the Thaymount). These new cysts are far outside the territory of Narfell and point to a disturbing trend that new cysts are appearing.
The demonlord bound to Toril is believed to be none other than Eltab, lord of the 248th known layer of the Abyss, otherwise known as the Hidden Layer. This layer is beset by extreme weathers as well as fauna and flora of frightening ferocity, deadliness, and uniqueness including vipertrees, ironmaws, assassinvines, and bloodthorns. These organisms adapt with unnatural speed, spawning new varieties and species as quickly as new intruders/prey are encountered. Often these new organisms just spring up out of the ground, clawing their way free from organic sacs that grow into the landscape.
Some planar experts believe that a malevolent intelligence guides the Abyss itself and the Hidden Layer is evidence of one such layer able to think for itself.
Traits: A Demoncyst is brought into existence whenever a demon is bound to Toril using the ancient method discovered by Nar Demonbinders over a millennia ago. This method literally pulls a portion of the Hidden Layer to Toril and binds it to the land (the Demonbinders often favoured performing the bindings underground or burying them after the binding was done). Thereafter the Demoncyst acts as an anchor between the Hidden Layer and Toril.
A Demoncyst has many stages of development. Some are small and barely able to hold a handful of Manes and lesser demons. Others can hold much larger numbers or even singular greater demons up to and including a Balor for truly massive Demoncysts. The largest Demoncysts (because there several) have or are home to Eltab himself.
A demon bound to a Demoncyst may or may not; depending upon the size of the Demoncyst and the power of the demon and whether they had learned the secrets of the rituals that bound them, move outside and travel distances from the Demoncyst that houses them. Large Demoncysts are very restrictive to their occupants (because they often house the most dangerous inhabitants) and usually do not allow demons to move more than a hundred metres from their borders.
Powerful demons often bargained with their binders to loosen the bindings on them to allow them increased freedom (in exchange for a reward). As a Demoncyst is damaged or destroyed it allows the demon bound to it to move further away than normal (or even allow it to move freely if the cyst is destroyed).
Soneillon herself was freed when her binding was destroyed by the forces of Bellodar's Great March. Most demons however fight to the death when invaders seek to destroy the Demoncysts (usually because they are trapped underground with no escape and cornered by a foe that seeks to eradicate them). She then went on to free a number of other demons by learning the rituals that bound them and the means to unbind them.
Demons slain outside the borders of their cyst are immediately transported and reformed within it (this is usually only possible if the bindings of the demon are relaxed as was done with Eltab and Ndulu (although his demoncyst has since been destroyed), and thus can act as secret redoubt as well as a prison for demons bound to them.
An empty Demoncyst can be used to summon demons into it (thus binding them). The number and power of demons so summoned depends upon the size and development of the Demoncyst.
Development: Demoncysts can be said to have 10 levels of Development (although the boundaries between these are artificial). Demoncysts at level 1 have been known to hold only a single lesser demon. There are only 2 known Demoncysts at development level 10, both were used to bind Eltab himself, one exists on a secret level within the Citadel of Conjurors and the second exists in The Citadel atop the Thaymount.
Recent adventuring reports have shown that Demoncysts beyond development level 5 protrude a number of tendrils (one or two per development level) that extend into the environment around it, burrowing through soil (and even rock). These tendrils have been found to connect to other Demoncysts (or tendrils from other Demoncysts), and these connections result in an increased development level depending upon the number and development of connected cysts.
Connected cysts confer the added ability to its occupants, allowing them to call other demons from connected cysts to aid them (ignoring the normal restrictions on the development level of the cyst).
Future: The Demoncysts are literally anchoring Toril to the Abyss and many believe this alarming new trend for the spread of Demoncysts to be a part of a process that will pull Toril into the Abyss.
Sages believe that the development level 10 Demoncysts are unique in that they act as Mothercysts that allow the spawning of new Demoncysts. This means that in recent years the Demoncyst in the Citadel of Conjurors or the Thaymount has escaped its heavily warded bindings and been allowed to connect to a wider network of Demoncysts throughout the Unnapproachable East.
The wards around the Citadel of Conjurors are over a millennia old and have been reinforced many times in the past. They may now have failed since the death of Soargar and the Mothercyst allowed to escape. The wards around The Citadel are more recent but devastating earthquakes have rocked the nation of Thay recent years and may have weakened sufficiently to allow its escape.
Some speculate that Eltabs presence may allow new Mothercysts to spawn. If so it is almost certain that one exists somewhere within the borders of Rashemen. Troubles in that country between various sects of the guardians of ancient Raumathar may have caused the Wychlaran to fail in their efforts to combat the spread of this cyst allowing it to reach beyond Rashemen's borders at last.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2017 : 16:08:44
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
That is really bad. Are they in the realms or in the old west
The Moonsea is Old West (brutal frontier). "Dare, but beware", sunken Northkeep, Phlan still stands (mostly) after being literally dragged into hell, and on the Eastern edge waves of goblinoids sometimes still roll by (all the way to Ravens Bluff).
North of Moonsea? It gets worse.
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2021 : 20:16:44
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Started work on this again but decided to go right back to 1357 DR as it stands in the Bloodstone Lands sourcebook and elaborate it from there.
After reading all the novels containing Damaran lore (mostly RAS novels with a surprising amount of detail in - for a RAS novel), it seems that there are a lot of noble houses unaccounted for in the Bloodstone Lands sourcebook which implies there are more because Zhengyi reorganised the political boundaries to form the riches of arcata, carmarthen, soravia. A Duke is of higher rank than a baron and would have numerous barons as vassals. Zhengyi probably did this to make the supply countries more powerful when compared to the city boundaries and to get him allies in Damaran nobility.
Commander Ellery had a curious set of surnames, Tranth, Dragonsbane, Kierney, Piedopare. She was Gareth Dragonsbanes niece and cousin twice removed which implies Gareth Dragonsbane's family has been enabled at least as far back as his great grandparents. It also implies that Kierney is of noble birth.
So Kierney is a noble family, Piedopare is, and Dragonsbane is, all before the Witchking invaded. Some or all of these families are barons in lands that now make up the larger duchies.
Kierney is cousins with Olwen Forestfriend who seems to have an affinity for Soravia so I reckon Kierney owns land near Kinbrace.
Dragonsbane acquired their name first their deeds (according to RAS) so at some point they slew dragons in the past, and Vaasa has the most dragons so i reckon the Dragonsbanes owned land in Vaasa in the past and lost it. I think there are more than a few noble families in Damara that used to own land in Vaasa when the Damarans were trying to settle it. That means Damara has a two tiered nobility, landed nobles and unlanded nobles.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2021 : 13:20:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Started work on this again but decided to go right back to 1357 DR as it stands in the Bloodstone Lands sourcebook and elaborate it from there.
After reading all the novels containing Damaran lore (mostly RAS novels with a surprising amount of detail in - for a RAS novel), it seems that there are a lot of noble houses unaccounted for in the Bloodstone Lands sourcebook which implies there are more because Zhengyi reorganised the political boundaries to form the riches of arcata, carmarthen, soravia. A Duke is of higher rank than a baron and would have numerous barons as vassals. Zhengyi probably did this to make the supply countries more powerful when compared to the city boundaries and to get him allies in Damaran nobility.
Commander Ellery had a curious set of surnames, Tranth, Dragonsbane, Kierney, Piedopare. She was Gareth Dragonsbanes niece and cousin twice removed which implies Gareth Dragonsbane's family has been enabled at least as far back as his great grandparents. It also implies that Kierney is of noble birth.
So Kierney is a noble family, Piedopare is, and Dragonsbane is, all before the Witchking invaded. Some or all of these families are barons in lands that now make up the larger duchies.
Kierney is cousins with Olwen Forestfriend who seems to have an affinity for Soravia so I reckon Kierney owns land near Kinbrace.
Dragonsbane acquired their name first their deeds (according to RAS) so at some point they slew dragons in the past, and Vaasa has the most dragons so i reckon the Dragonsbanes owned land in Vaasa in the past and lost it. I think there are more than a few noble families in Damara that used to own land in Vaasa when the Damarans were trying to settle it. That means Damara has a two tiered nobility, landed nobles and unlanded nobles.
Not sure where you're taking this, but bear in mind that the one thing Zhengyi made sure to do was kill the nobility.
From Bloodstone Lands
Zhengyi had spent ten years preparing for this day, and he didn't hesitate. Calling on the forces of the Grandfather of Assassins, the Witch-King instituted the second phase of the destruction of Damara. It took only one bloody night for the most loyal and powerful nobles of Damara to be slain.
So, the nobility that remains may have been the LESSER nobility.... which may have not necessarily married into nobility, but rather with rich merchant powers, etc... They might have married adventurers... They might have even just married for love. So, a noble that remains might have surnames that are just "commoner" names. Just a thought. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2021 : 13:33:32
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Well noble houses are more than just one or two individuals, there will be the patriarch and the heir, there will be other sons and daughters, there will be aunts, uncles, and cousins all within the same noble house. Admittedly most of the men would have been slain at that battle as the quote implies, but not all.
Sickly sons, weakling, old men would all be left behind. If we look at House Helmont there is at least one male survivor of adult age. Baron Tranth survives, Gareth Dragonsbane survives.
I would speculate that 60% of the male nobility were slain, and that would be devastating to any noble house. Many would vanish within a few years due to no remaining heirs or patriarchs. But most would survive but be severely weakened.
When Zhengyi then restructured the nobility structure, elevating his puppets or those swearing fealty to him to the positions of Dukes, there would have been little power remaining among the nobility to oppose that restructuring.
I dont think he slew all the men in the battle and assassinated the survivors. That would have resulted in chaos and does not match with Zhengyis plan which seemed to be to create a puppet state that enriched his coffers without him having to rule it. He broke the system but did not annihilate it. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2021 : 13:58:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
One question, do people consider the events of the bloodstone wars to be true, accurate, and canon.
For instance the group go to the abyss and steal the wand of orcus, then they go to hell and kill tiamat. Now it might just be me, but I'm fairly sceptical about this given that the party are about level 20 and there are numerous problems with planar continuity caused by accepting this as fact (Orcus' wand has at least 3 different descriptions and is written in several other non FR adventures as being in the possession of other beings, and it reappears a short time later for tenebrous to reclaim).
Is it possible that the more bardic inclined members of the party embellished their deeds somewhat (gareth cant lie, but as long as he never repeats the story himself he is good).
Perhaps the wand of orcus was a replica made by Zhengyi in homage to the original, and while still an artifact it was lesser in power (explaining the different appearance and powers) and so able to be destroyed by defeating an aspect of tiamat rather than tiamat herself.
My PERSONAL take on the region to explain away exactly what you wonder is this (because it matches up with my homebrew adventures I ran). I kind of picture Gareth and company gone for a year or more.
1357 DR
King Virdin dies, nobility of Damara is killed, Zhengyi takes over
1358 DR
Gareth and company start the events of the Throne of Bloodstone Adventure, which takes them "off world". Rumors that they were followed into Zhengyi's fortress by an archmage named Velsharoon are of course baseless, especially that Gareth and company didn't even know that he was aiding them. The idea that Velsharoon had come to find something that Zhengyi had acquired from the Rawlinswood (possibly Dun-tharos or the Great Barrow) and was searching for it whilst Gareth and Company were also there completely false.
Time of Troubles happens. Orcus is able to be worshipped like a god. Therefore, Orcus is weakened and forced into "an avatar". Orcus' outer planar domain goes into chaos. His wand is still in the outer planes, and he can't access it.
Now, in my home game, I put Orcus into a duergar priest that worshipped him, but it would probably make more sense if he went into Zhengyi (assuming he can, since Zhengyi is undead, but I assume that can happen because of Baneliches carrying some of Bane's divinity).
"Orcus" spends his time during the Time of Troubles fighting against his own forces, specifically the Balor Klavikus as one problem (and give Klavikus some levels in wizard since he's noted as sitting around reading spellbooks for centuries). Other demons also come out to play. So does the goddess Kiaransalee, who is also in avatar form at this time, in Vaasa, in the "Vault of Gnashing Teeth" or the city of V'eldrinnsshar. Of course, the fact that magic is unreliable makes "Orcus"/Zhengyi hesitant to go around blasting things as well and he can't go home. Quite possibly, he is even killed while on the prime in lesser avatar form in the body of a lich (the body of a lich that had once been exposed to the energies of the Athora of Thay to note).
Tiamat's avatar is down in Unthalass and slays Gilgeam, but is severely weakened by the effort. After slaying Gilgeam (the last member of a pantheon that she's part of), she performs "shenanigans" to get off of Toril utilizing the divine domain of the Untheric Pantheon. Tiamat, proud of herself for outstmarting Ao, then goes home to find some adventurers invading her home turf. She is still in "lesser avatar" form.... as in she's simply possessing a mortal dragon's body from Toril, but its still technically infused with her divinity.
Time of Troubles ends
Kiaransalee invades Orcus' home at the same time as Gareth and company. She begins setting up to cast a major magic ritual. Orcus isn't there, as he's still "trapped" in a phylactery from his ordeals on the prime.
Some "simulacrums" of Orcus (or something like a simulacrum) had been acting as if they were Orcus in his absence. These get destroyed.
Kiaransalee's dark elven priests and crusaders of the Legion of vengeful Banshees, along with night hags, banshees, vampires, liches, and even a dark elven death knight busily clear the way.
Gareth and company unwittingly waltz past the chaos, occasionally having to fight something, and think themselves the greatest heroes ever. They never encounter Kiaransalee's forces, but the do find the aftermath on occasion.... however there are few bodies left behind, as Kiaransalee's forces tend to animate them to serve as fodder (even demons are turned into undead using a special artifact of Kiaransalee).
Gareth and company get the Wand of Orcus. A former red wizard named Velsharoon had been following them in hopes of getting ahold of this, but somehow was distracted and only knows they got it and got away.
1359 DR
Gareth and company return from destroying the wand of Orcus by bathing it in the blood of Tiamat's "avatar". A former ally of Zhengyi named Velsharoon, who had been following Gareth's company, figures "what the hell, they left behind that blood? Do they not realize its infused with powerful energy?" and swoops in to collect it.
Orcus dies, Kiaransalee casts the spell that erases Orcus' name from history at some point following. However, Gareth and company were unaffected, and unwittingly their use of his name to remark on their heroics has consequences.
Tenebrous is created
1368 DR
Zhengyi's former ally, Velsharoon the Vaunted, who had also been with him when the athora explosion happened, begins the casting of a ritual with the aid of Talos. Part of this ritual casting involves possibly use of Zhengyi's own phylactery, maybe, which had once held the spirit of Orcus. He also has the phylactery of the god Mellifleur who had also been entrapped during the ToT by Velsharoon. He also has some of the blood of Tiamat that had infused with the wand of orcus, some blood gathered from the Karsestone, bone powder from the body of the lich that was an avatar of Mellifleur, godflesh from the body of Nergal's manifestation buried in the great Barrow in Rawlinswood, and possibly even some of the dust that was from Myrkul's avatar. Velsharoon becomes the god of necromancy.
that he fought during the ToT.
time wise this might need a little work, but I think the gist is there. Basically, the time of troubles puts a big spin on what actually occurred with Tiamat, Orcus, and Kiaransalee around this time.
Oh, and the rumors that Velsharoon the Vaunted actually met and slept with the mortal avatar of Kiaransalee during the Time of Troubles, and that they had a half elven child..... well, that's just gossip of course. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 08 Jul 2021 15:25:56 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2021 : 11:26:57
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Well after reading the sellswords novels it seems clear to me that zhengyi was a demilich of sorts, using the phylacteries of other creatures as his soul gems (I reckon he was slowly leaching energy from their phylacteries, but they would have thought the leach was being used to maintain the castle perilous constructs.
One thing that puzzled me was how zhengyi was able to create dracoliches without any association with the cult of the dragon, or was he a secret wearer of the purple (there are a few dracoliches and the wyrmsmoke cell nearby).
Also, the portal beneath castle perilous that leads to both the abyss and baator. I'm thinking the bit with orcus and his wand was a lie because it was clearly not orcus' wand.
But why a portal to baator, had it always been there, is that why there are so many dragons of varieties you would not expect in Vaasa (at least 3 reds, 2 coppers, silvers, golds, brass, a flight of blue dragons, black dragons and of course the expected white dragons for such a frozen territory, and all of these present before zhengyi appeared.
My gut feel is that they are connected to the spellweaver portal hidden in Vaasa and that zhengyi built castle perilous atop it Nd for some reason it must be pointed at baator and tiamats cave (maybe myrkul pointed it there when he visited it), or maybe jergal before him) but whatever the reason, there has long been a portal to tiamats realm in baator open beneath Vaasa and zhengyi was trying to exploit it to get the dragons on his side and get many dracolich phylacteries.
Perhaps that's why there is another dragon sized fortress just south of vaasa in the glacier of the white worm, and of old the good dragons used it in opposition to the bad ones (long before humans lived here). |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2021 : 14:51:47
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| The secrets of dracolichdom aren't exclusive to the Cult of the Dragon. Given that Falazure's almost certainly the one responsible for the creation of dracoliches, it wouldn't be out of possibility that he used his Null aspect in Realmspace to point Zhengyi in the right direction. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2021 : 20:30:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Plus I think there is a gang dragon beneath Damara who is rumoured to have a time of the dragon.
I have no idea what this sentence means. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2021 : 20:45:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I think I prefer a more terrestrial means of explanation. Plus I think there is a gang dragon beneath Damara who is rumoured to have a time of the dragon. And there are lots of dragon cultists in the year of the Dracorage novels that have infiltrated Damaran society and military, implying they have been there a while.
No reason why zhengyi couldnt have obtained a time of the dragon for himself and established his own cult of the dragon cell, or just had his Cult of the Goats Head serve the dracoliches he created.
Does Anyone have details of the confusing link between Bahamut and the Grandmaster of Flowers in the new Magic the Gathering cards. I've read something about it but I'm not getting the cards myself but it could be an idea I can steal.
Well, to quote myself from the Forgotten Realms MTG set thread:
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Bahamut being called "the Grandmaster of Flowers" is a bit more confusing. I think though it might be connected to the fact St. Sollars (worshipped/revered by the Monastery of the Yellow Rose, whose grandmaster is known as Grandmaster of Flowers) originally was implied to revere and/or serve Bahamut in the Throne of Bloodstone, before the The Bloodstone Lands connected him to Ilmater. Still a bit indirect connection.
(A bit off-topic theory/fanon time for why this might be. I think it's posible Saint Sollars might had be or at least had been a shared saint/proxy of both Bahamut and Imater, or originally even served just Bahamut, but got transfered/shared with Ilmater, with overtime his connection to Bahamut fading from mortal memory. This isn't improbable seeing Bahamut's connection to the Triad. Maybe even the Monastery of the Yellow Rose was originally dedicated to St. Sollars, Bahamut and Ilmater, or just Bahamut and St. Sollars, before the worship got transfered to Ilmater, possibly due to Bahamut weakeneing due to his battes with Tiamat? With one of Bahamut's Avatars, being the
Grandmaster of Flowers. This is is of course in part basing this on a non-canon card, but it's still fun to theorize.)
Also, sleyvas' comment from the same thread, also with an interesting idea:
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I do wonder though, in Throne of Bloodstone, it says that Kane was Grand Master of Spring, and he deliberately left his order and let someone take that role because he respected and didn't want to challenge the current "Grand Master of Flowers".
Then the Bloodstone Lands says
On Kane's advice, Gareth has spent some effort soliciting the
goodwill of the Monastery of the Yellow Rose. He has invited Cantoule, the new Grandmaster of Flowers, to visit Bloodstone Village.
and
At 40, Cantoule is young for his station as the reigning Grand Master of Flowers. He was pressed into the position when Grand Master Poke died, and Kane professed no desire to hold the station for any extended period. Even then Cantoule was not the next most obvious successor. Unfortunately, the man who was next in line, a 15th level monk named Temmenische, was also 95 years old. Kane and Temmenische realized that Cantoule would be the most appropriate successor, so they put him through a crash course of the higher level lessons.
Finally, on the FR Wiki
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Cantoule
There's apparently in the rage of dragons series of novels, this grand master of flowers, Cantoule, helps the monastery of the yellow rose stand off against a bunch of chromatic dragons, until some metallic dragons show up to aid them.
Not that I'd push for anything in the cards to become canon, but just working through concepts for the hell of it.... maybe Cantoule did some shenanigans of some sort with Bahamut (offering himself up as an avatar or somesuch, allowing his body to be possessed, as a martyr) that isn't documented.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2021 : 00:48:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Apologies, fang dragon it should have said. Auto correct strikes again
So if it was autocorrect, can I then assume that "time of the dragon" was supposed to be "tome of the dragon"? |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2021 : 12:24:52
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I would also look at the Planescape adventures "Dead Gods" and the "Great Modron March."
(The adventure "Headless" in Dungeon #89 is also interesting.)
The wiki does a nice job of integrating the two storylines. You could argue that the success of destroying the Wand of Orcus by Gareth (at least temporarily) weakened Orcus enough that Kiaransalee could kill him, turning him into Tenebrous. The Rogue Modron March is assumed to have succeeded, restoring Orcus as a demon lord.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Orcus |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2021 : 00:36:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I will give them all a good read, but I'm of the opinion at the moment that the wand of orcus is just one of many.
The wand of orcus has multiple different descriptions, which implies there are several different ones. It has been described as a rod used by orcus in melee, and obsidian wand topped with a skull, an iron wand topped with a skull, and one picture has it made of bone topped with a skull.
It has multiple different definitions of powers as well.
The planescape book Hellbound says that the wand of orcus was hidden in pandemonium when orcus was slain. And later 4e modules have aspects of orcus wielding lesser versions of the wand.
So it seems quite possible if not more likely that the party in the Bloodstone Wars only managed to obtain a lesser version of this wand, it was not destroyed by bathing in the blood of tiamat (because the ToT causes problems with that) and so the story has already been changed so that it was bathed in the blood of an avatar, again implying it is lesser in nature.
So if the story has already been changed why not make the wand of orcus a lesser version created by zhengyi and given a more realmsian origin. It can still be imbued with a measure of orcus' power because it would be a lesser artefact and so still weaken him when destroyed.
Making it a wand of orcus instead of The Wand of Orcus helps sort out continuity problems elsewhere.
Along these particular lines, each different wand of orcus may be tied to a different prime material plane in which he is able to interact as a god, almost like Mellifleur with his multiple phylacteries (in my version of Mellifleur EXACTLY like that as I believe he has a phylactery for each prime in which he arose because he "overwrites" someone via getting them to enact the same ritual and then "overwriting" their name with his own in the histories.... in my version of realmslore, Velsharoon broke this chain for the realmsian phylactery of Mellifleur, in which he used the same phylactery as the present "Mellifleur" of the realms).
To note, this trope doesn't need to be unique to Mellifleur and Orcus.... there may be multiple gods doing something similar in some way or another <cough Bane cough>.... nor Velsharoon unique in finding a way to subvert their own "being subsumed" by the former power <cough Xvim cough> .... man, I need to get this cold looked at. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Jul 2021 00:39:23 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2021 : 11:14:15
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Onto the various religions.
Damara, thanks to RAS design principles is a separate entity from the rest of Faerun in many ways. I guess you could put it down to their fierce independence and refusal to rely on others, and that extends to adopting the culture of others.
That being said, some attempt is needed to integrate Damara with the wider world.
For religion, the Bloodstone modules and sourcebook only mention Dyonasis, Orcus, and Bahamut. George nicely made Dyonasis a saint.
The rogue of dragons novel mentions Lathander having a lesser position than ilmater but is still important enough to have a mention.
Pool of Radiance mentions worship of Tyr in Vaasa and that worship is different to the rest of Faerun (more martial and warlike) and it seems sensible to extend the link to Damara which is likewise different from the rest of Faerun.
No mention is made of Torm at all. Could it be that he has been abandoned in Damara (who probably dont need mercy given all the dangers around them and already have a warlike Tyr to combat them).
There are mentions of druids and rangers, presumably they follow a nature deity of some sort, Silvanus has presence in the neighbouring Great Dale so that is one option, or it could use a more local nature god.
And then there is bahamut. An oddity in the Bloodstone Lands. He seems to have little or no human contact elsewhere (as bahamut) and yet Gareth Dragonsbane seems to be a paladin of Bahamut and at the same time a member of the Order of the Golden Cup which is an Ilmater crusading order.
4e had Bahamut replace Tyr in the Triad. The new MtG cards list Bahamut as the Grandmaster of Flowers or some such nonsense.
So what if Bahamut takes on the guise of a saint in the church of ilmater in Damara. He could then be worshipped like Dyonasis but not be recognised anywhere else in Faerun (which he isnt really) because he is a local saint - the platinum knight.
Could have been an early defender of the monastery of the yellow rose, killed a few chromatic dragons, became a saint, and worshipped as a lesser member of the triad in place of Torm. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2021 : 13:37:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Onto the various religions.
Damara, thanks to RAS design principles is a separate entity from the rest of Faerun in many ways. I guess you could put it down to their fierce independence and refusal to rely on others, and that extends to adopting the culture of others.
That being said, some attempt is needed to integrate Damara with the wider world.
For religion, the Bloodstone modules and sourcebook only mention Dyonasis, Orcus, and Bahamut. George nicely made Dyonasis a saint.
The rogue of dragons novel mentions Lathander having a lesser position than ilmater but is still important enough to have a mention.
Pool of Radiance mentions worship of Tyr in Vaasa and that worship is different to the rest of Faerun (more martial and warlike) and it seems sensible to extend the link to Damara which is likewise different from the rest of Faerun.
No mention is made of Torm at all. Could it be that he has been abandoned in Damara (who probably dont need mercy given all the dangers around them and already have a warlike Tyr to combat them).
There are mentions of druids and rangers, presumably they follow a nature deity of some sort, Silvanus has presence in the neighbouring Great Dale so that is one option, or it could use a more local nature god.
And then there is bahamut. An oddity in the Bloodstone Lands. He seems to have little or no human contact elsewhere (as bahamut) and yet Gareth Dragonsbane seems to be a paladin of Bahamut and at the same time a member of the Order of the Golden Cup which is an Ilmater crusading order.
4e had Bahamut replace Tyr in the Triad. The new MtG cards list Bahamut as the Grandmaster of Flowers or some such nonsense.
So what if Bahamut takes on the guise of a saint in the church of ilmater in Damara. He could then be worshipped like Dyonasis but not be recognised anywhere else in Faerun (which he isnt really) because he is a local saint - the platinum knight.
Could have been an early defender of the monastery of the yellow rose, killed a few chromatic dragons, became a saint, and worshipped as a lesser member of the triad in place of Torm.
Gareth is a paladin of Ilmater per Bloodstone lands
Gareth Dragonsbane
Bloodstone
21st level paladin
LG, Ilmater
Human male
ST 18/30, CN 17, CHA 18
Also, Ilmater is the state religion of Damara.
I would say that the reason Torm isn't mentioned is he never made serious inroads INTO Damara/Vaasa (I could see that changing, except that the Dragonsbane Dynasty dies out over the next century, so theoretically it only had a few generations). We tend to think of "The Faerunian Pantheon" as prevalent everywhere, but some places just don't have much if any worship at all of certain people. With the "death" of Tyr, post spellplague, worship of Bahamut and Torm would grow (but I see Bahamut's growing due to the symbolism of the gem tree).
On Bahamut, Throne of Bloodstone makes it clear that Ilmater and Bahamut do work together. I know a lot of people don't like this concept, but I do... and the concept I'm talking about is that many lesser gods serve multiple masters. So, Deneir isn't just a servant of Oghma under this theory, but also a servant of Mystra with the idea of pushing scrolls, spellbooks, glyphs, etc... The Red Knight isn't just a servant of Tempus, but also a servant of Mystra, as a goddess of spell tactics, etc... Lurue might serve all 3 of Selune, Mystra, and Sune, etc...
On Bahamut as well, I would make it very much NOT that he's a servitor of Ilmater. He is very clearly a dragon god. In the past he may have hidden it by posing as say Marduk, but he very clearly came out to Gareth (through St. Sollars) as Bahamut and made it known that HE was going to give them the gem tree. I see Bahamut as a new arrival per se, seeking a place in which he can grow his worship. I can see Gareth possibly having a shrine to Bahamut built at the site of the gem tree. I can see people giving offerings in thanks there, even as people still worship Ilmater as their primary deity. His faith "energy" would start to grow... maybe some dragons show up... instill awe in folks... more faith.... a paladin or two swears to him... more faith... Tyr dies and his paladins switch to either Torm or Bahamut...
There are also in theory dragonkin in Vaasa (based on the short story Darksword), as the Moor Eagles tribe in Vaasa faced off against some white scaled dragon like humanoids. This leads into their tribe gaining the black crystal "darkswords" and serving Shade Enclave leading into the 1300's. I wouldn't be surprised if Bahamut tries to "turn" these into worshippers (if he can) or eliminate them so that Tiamat can't use them (if he can't).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Vaasa, damara, narfell
