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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11927 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 11:37:42
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These are all very good points. I'd like to throw out some random facts that I'm seeing and see where it goes.
1) Its been noted that the tree of souls acts as a portal to Evermeet.
2) Evermeet has returned to Toril after the Sundering, which is after this assault on Myth Drannor
3) Evermeet has been gone for a century, during which time it was located in the Feywild, where I would presume that it made contact with other elves.
4) It is stated that Evermeet is still in some quasi state where it is both part of Toril and the Feywild, so essentially, the elves of the Feywild have a battlefront on their doorstep.
5) The elves of Evermeet would be LIVID when they get home, try to contact Myth Drannor, and discover that they'd just been assaulted by Shadovar.
6) The 200 mile radius of free use High Magic caused by the tree of souls by my measurements has only just in the last few years reached the standing stones, and all the symbolism that those stones represent, and we all know that magic and symbolism go together.
So, I once again put forth my previous question, "Would they contact the Elven Imperial Fleet?", but to that I add "Would they draw upon allies that they've made in the last century in the Feywild?". There actually could be a serious influx of new elves coming to Toril from outside areas, using High Magic to sieze the entire forest again. Also, what kind of sympathetic high magic can you think of that might be used with the standing stones as a focus? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Elven Avenger
Acolyte
Brazil
27 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 12:01:32
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First of all let me use this moment to say thank you!
What a debate!
Aldrick and CorellonsDevout, you both talk about elves with a passion and property that comes close with the way I think about this race in particular and in my honest opinion the way you talk about it is a very plausible way that elves of Faerun should be portrayed in all my games.
I don’t think that right now I could add anything new to this discussion other than the feeling that I’m also very fond of the idea of seeing the elves rise again in the Mainland.
I can’t see Evermeet and houses like Durothil closing their eyes to Myth Drannor and the Tree of Souls. It would be right the contrary. It would be a very important moment to even wake up the magically sleeping Dragon riders and the marvelous defenses that we know that the elves possess!
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11927 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 15:22:38
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| Also, another idea comes to mind about another elven realm. We know that the Star Elves of Sildeyuir made contact again with the green elves of the Yuirwood/Aglarond. What if some of them agreed to try and breed the elven lines back true in order to recover the Yuirwood again (because half-elf + elf = elf in canon lore). They could have been raising these children in secret in Sildeyuir for the last hundred years, entirely cut off from the realms by the spellplague. In fact, some of this could have simply been that when the spellplague "hit" many half elves were rescued by the Star Elves who brought them to Sildeyuir (maybe there were divine visions sent or something), and the two cultures interbred over the last hundred years much as how our own baby boomers did (say 10 kids for every two parents). These children would be entering young adulthood at about this time given that time passes differently, though one could easily say that time passes in parallel once the spellplague hit and have the children hitting a little over 100 years old now. With the Sundering having just passed, maybe the Yuirwood is seeing these elven children returning to the world of their half-elven parents (many of whom would now be elderly), with their own newly born children as well because Sildeyuir is becoming crowded. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11927 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 15:45:38
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| The more I think on it, the half-elves of Aglarond breeding much like the baby boomer generation (i.e. large families) may make a lot of sense given the constant threat of Thayan raiders seeking slaves. So, if they were to go to Sildeyuir, it would make sense that they continue this trend. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 15:56:51
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
These are all very good points. I'd like to throw out some random facts that I'm seeing and see where it goes.
1) Its been noted that the tree of souls acts as a portal to Evermeet.
2) Evermeet has returned to Toril after the Sundering, which is after this assault on Myth Drannor
3) Evermeet has been gone for a century, during which time it was located in the Feywild, where I would presume that it made contact with other elves.
4) It is stated that Evermeet is still in some quasi state where it is both part of Toril and the Feywild, so essentially, the elves of the Feywild have a battlefront on their doorstep.
5) The elves of Evermeet would be LIVID when they get home, try to contact Myth Drannor, and discover that they'd just been assaulted by Shadovar.
6) The 200 mile radius of free use High Magic caused by the tree of souls by my measurements has only just in the last few years reached the standing stones, and all the symbolism that those stones represent, and we all know that magic and symbolism go together.
So, I once again put forth my previous question, "Would they contact the Elven Imperial Fleet?", but to that I add "Would they draw upon allies that they've made in the last century in the Feywild?". There actually could be a serious influx of new elves coming to Toril from outside areas, using High Magic to sieze the entire forest again. Also, what kind of sympathetic high magic can you think of that might be used with the standing stones as a focus?
If we remove the authors for the sake of this exercise I would say yes to the question about the imperial fleet. I actually think it would have been more interesting if a distress had been sent out to the Elven Armada in Realmspace and had them engage the Shadovar. Now mind you I really liked the Shade and I hated to see them sacrificed in such a cheap way but if they had to go then I would have rather seen it that way.
There is literally nothing stopping a huge team of elves from coming over from Evermeet and securing the city. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 16:27:00
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@sleyvas: a return of the star elves would be interesting (and by return I mean an appearance, since there hasn't been anything about them in a while).
Evermeet is said to now be a part of three worlds: Arvandor, the Feywild, and Fearun. Their ships have been seen docking on the Sword Coast once again. At the very least, I could see the fleet getting involved to secure the Tree, whether that means reclaiming Myth Drannor or taking the Tree back to Evermeet. However, doing that would nullify what they have been trying to accomplish (a Return), so I think they are less likely to do that. Thr question would be whether the Myth Drannorian and other mainland elves would want to contact Evermeet or "handle things on their own". It could go either way. Of course, because of the Tree, Evermeet could be aware of what happened and choose either to involve themselves, or stay out of it.and here, there could be division among those who want to and those who don't. But if there is going to be a successful Return, Evermeet should be invested in it.
@Elven Avenger: the elves are my favorite race  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 16:56:41
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| Since Wizards currently like to blow things up every chance they get, I wouldn't be surprised to see Evermeet get taken out somehow. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 16:57:57
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| Please no >< |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2015 : 01:47:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Yes, I assumed it was most of the city as well, until Ed said otherwise here. Which way do you think they'll go in canon? Do you think they'll try and limit it to only a few blocks, as Ed has stated here, or do you think they'll try and say that the entire city is destroyed?
Frankly it sounds a little bit as if Ed wants to have his cake and eat it too here.
Just from the sheer size of the rock that Shade was floating on, if it's anything but destruction for the vast majority of Myth Drannor, it's just silly even for the "well, elves don't crowd their buildings as close as humans" explanation.
On the topic of humans-elves conflicts/wars, has there ever been one where the elves have not curbstomped the human armies?
It reads as it the armies of Jhaamdath actually did well in the field, that is until the elves just wiped the entire nation off the map with their high magic.
Maybe the last war vs. the shades could count (until shade crashed down at least), but even that was basically described at "lets have 11 humans charge the elven spearmen, once the first 10 corpses are impaled on his spear it'll be to heavy and the 11th can slay him".
Ridiculous that the shades could find any mercenary willing to continue this battle after the first few days. That's WW1 level casualty rates, but unlike then these are supposed to be mercenaries in it for the money who at least want a chance to live through it and spend it later. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2015 : 02:14:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Since Wizards currently like to blow things up every chance they get, I wouldn't be surprised to see Evermeet get taken out somehow.
It has just returned... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2015 : 02:17:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
[...] it's just silly [...]
Just take a look at the whole FR metaplot...
Anyway, Ed's lore can make Myth Drannor a useful campaing elment for both the groups who want a ruin to plunder/explore, and those who like elves putting and end to the retreat. It's something constructive, and fits perfectly in the 5e ''inclusiveness'' thingy.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 13 Dec 2015 02:20:08 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2015 : 14:23:54
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Since the tree can never be removed once it's planted they will have to come back. I also don't see elves on Evermeet not wanting to make sure the tree is kept safe.
Reestablishing Myth Drannor is really now more important than ever. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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eeorey
Seeker
Bulgaria
96 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2015 : 15:40:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
On the topic of humans-elves conflicts/wars, has there ever been one where the elves have not curbstomped the human armies?
In the Thronhold novel a bunch of paladins that were on their way to slay a demon were not given passage through elven lands somewhere near Sembia, so they made way through the elves.
The battles in Dambrath between the local human barbarians and the drow were actually pretty much a draw before the priestesses of Loviatar showed up and betrayed the humans in a battle that they appeared to be winning. Hell at the beginning they attacked the drow city in the underdark.
As for the Jhaamdathan armies, it was they who curbstomped the elves, reducing the total population there by 9/10 and all of the elves left were below the age of 100.
These three are literally all I can remember right now, compared to all the curbstomping from elves that human armies have received.
But yes the rest is an annoying elves are so much superior and they can kick human ass all over the place theme. Seriously I would love to have a novel or just some smidgen of lore of how Jhaamdath fought with them, it would be a nice change of the usual - human armies are just relying on numbers and apparently don't know anything about tactics when facing anything other than other humans or orcs.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2015 : 17:04:39
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Because elves are superior  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2015 : 19:00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Because elves are superior
Lies. We all know the trope that humans always win in the end. Humans are to elves what cockroaches are to us: they have numbers and flexibility. Also, anything an elf can achieve in their centuries-long lifespan, a human can achieve in their ten times shorther lifespan. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4692 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2015 : 19:57:27
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Well in part it could still be the numbers games. Elves have a long life to prefect their combat, however have a low reproduction rate.
Humans indeed grow to adult age quicker in years and do indeed can achieve high levels (though not the average human), however also have a high reproduction rate.
One hundred elves living in peace with 100 humans in a nearby community might be how they might start out. In one hundred years later the peaceful communities might have 120 elves and might have about 1,000 humans.
Should they go to war in the 101st year the humans can win even if 5 humans are killed for every elf. That is in this example - kill 50 elves and 250 humans the remaining communities once again at peace would have about 70 elves and about 750 humans. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2015 : 20:03:22
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| My comment was mostly meant to be lighthearted (thus the emoticon), though I do favor elves over humans, just as a personal preference. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2015 : 20:09:05
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| Mine was too |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2015 : 18:31:03
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Just a couple things I thought about while reading this scroll... Has anyone consider the idea of "The Return" being a return to the Ancient ways by the Elves of Cormanthyr? Sembia used to be part of Cormanthyr, and they were involved in the war against Myth Drannor... In the scenario that presents Cormyr annexing Sembia, it may be worth considering the idea that the Elves (prompted by the Eldreth Veluuthra?) would consider Sembia as part of Cormanthyr, and oppose Cormyr's expansion into the region.
Additionally, the return of Eiliastraee could be used by the Cormanthyr Elves to try and unify the Elves & Drow of the region into a single society. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Tree of Souls: When will it be planted on Faerun?
