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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 19:02:28
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TBeholder -
How active and powerful are the Harpers now in 5E? Essentially they were disbanded and then refounded. However, their primary focus was on defeating Shade (now achieved). That being said, I got the impression that they were now a rather minor organization and a shadow of their former selves.
I think the best thing for Ilsevele Miritar is constant external threats. So long as they are under threat from outside forces, people are going to turn to existing leadership. The same is true about retaking Myth Drannor. So long as people feel that she is moving swiftly to do that--there isn't any snags or stalling--then she should be fine. If for any reason events keep her from moving to retake Myth Drannor internal problems arise for her.
Problems will also arise once Myth Drannor is retaken and things settle down.
I still think people are underestimating the sheer emotional and psychological trauma that the refugee Elves from Myth Drannor are experiencing. I think it is because it is something so horrible that none of us have had anything even remotely as bad happen to us in real life.
Right now, as the last survivors of Myth Drannor trickle into where the refugees have fled, people are eagerly hoping that their sons, daughters, parents, and friends are among those survivors. As the survivors trickle in you are watching people all around you get the news that someone they love didn't make it. You are watching people literally collapse in the streets in horrific grief, screaming and crying. When its all over, absolutely everyone will have lost someone close to them. Most people will have lost more than one person close to them. Every single family has suffered some tragic loss.
Then you have the war injuries and issues of PTSD and the like among the survivors. There are those that made it out, but are literally missing arms and legs now. There are those who may have suffered no physical--or at least no long lasting physical injuries--but instead the emotional and psychological harm they've suffered is massive.
Add to this sense of grief that you've just lost your home. Add to this sense of grief that the places and things that you consider holy are being defiled by your enemies. Add all of this to the horror and grief you are already experiencing.
Then that is when the suicides begin. You are going to find people who have lost so much that they can't carry on. You are going to find people so traumatized by what they've seen and endured that they can't make the nightmares stop. More loss. More pain.
Economically, the people have fled with only what they were wearing and what they could carry. They are all destitute. Their standard of living has collapsed completely.
Right now, before the re-claiming of Myth Drannor, this is the reality in which these Elven refugees are living.
This is what Ilsevele Miritar gets to oversee and focus on in the immediate aftermath of losing the city. Yet, somehow, she also has to begin organizing these people to retake the city that they've just lost. She can't be distracted by any of this stuff, because very soon people are going to start wanting to place some type of blame.
The people can't strike out against the Gods. They can't strike out against their enemies. Yet, there is Ilsevele Miritar. Conveniently. The people are going to want to blame someone, to hold someone responsible, and as their leader she is their most convenient target. It is made worse by the fact that there are so many Elves who decided to stand bravely and die as the city fell. They knew that the war was lost, but they decided to stand strong anyway. Yet, here Ilsevele and her consort are... standing among them. They look cowardly by comparison.
Sure, she could make a very good argument for the reason she didn't go down with the ship. Namely, that it would be worse to leave her people leaderless, and a pointless death would have been in no ones interest. (And she would be absolutely right.) However, considering the state of affairs, I don't believe that logic and reason is going to be powerful tools of persuasion at the moment.
I say all this, because I think it is important to see Ilsevele and her position in their proper context. Even if Myth Drannor is retaken, there are still going to be recriminations, demands for accountability, and demands for justice. Many of those recriminations are going to be unfair and many demands are going to be unrealistic and impossible to grant.
This is when political rivals start popping up. People who have long had a problem with Ilsevele and her leadership. People who are looking for political opportunity and power for themselves, or to take Myth Drannor in a completely different direction.
In a traditional society, one that did not have its leaders selected by magical blades, Ilsevele would be stepping down and handing leadership over to someone else. Someone who could better hold the confidence of the people and unify them. Instead, she is going to be forced to give political rivals and opponents greater power and greater say in how things operate in Myth Drannor. This power sharing is really the only way she will be able to keep confidence in her government.
Of course, this creates internal divisions within the leadership, and it limits her power and authority. This is how things like isolationist Elves are able to prohibit working with Dalelanders, and instead call in more reinforcements from Evermeet. That is when those isolationists begin harassing and even potentially killing in some cases those who come near the forest.
The largest and most vocal of the factions is certainly going to be the isolationists. This is how elves have traditionally responded to threats and problems--they've sealed themselves off and retreated. There is no reason to believe they will act differently here, and that the people wouldn't want the same.
This is why I don't see the Elves actually working with Dalelanders to any large degree. The isolationists are going to hold too much power, and are not going to want humans to have any part of what is taking place. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 19:06:47
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| Either that, or the elves will want to hunt down all survivors of Shade. Instead of blaming their Coronal, I can see them blaming Shade. Kind of how Shevarashans go after drow, perhaps a group of elves (such as the isolationists) will form a band and hunt down Shadovar. This is all speculation, of course. A few might blame Ilsevele, but I can't see enough of them blaming her to form an uprising. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2449 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 19:35:39
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
IIRC, a person with both elf and human ancestors will either be a human or a half elf. The mix never breeds back to full elf.
Uh, no.
Elf.subrace1 + Elf.subrace2 -> Elf.subrace1 (maybe traces of subrace2) | Elf.subrace2 (maybe traces of subrace1)
Elf + Human -> Half-Elf
Half-Elf + Human -> Human (traces of Elf blood)
Half-Elf + Elf -> Elf (traces of Human blood)
Some parts of phenotype are fixed more than the others - while all elves have sharp ears, there are also more variable traits, which is what was said in canon to mark some elves (both surface and drow) with "visible" traces of human ancestry.
Such as unusual eye coloration. Or certain Moon-elven ladies having significantly more curves than is typical for their kin, while otherwise looking all-Elvish, like one Sunite enchantress in Ravens Bluff. 
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Evereska is still going strong so why can't Myth Drannor?
Evereska is in a mostly-stable equilibrium, and its neighbours are mostly Phaerimm-made magical wasteland desert, Elf-made magical wasteland moors and mountains.
Cormanthor is being re-colonized by thousands of elves, most of whom never dealt with humans, and is surrounded by flat, human-occupied lands from all sides.
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Hmmm, I see some offensive and OT real world material in a post by someone else.
Could you please elucidate - exactly what and offensive to whom?
quote:
Out before the thread lock.
Oh, if you want it to go this way... Fine, you'll rat on us all to daddy moderator, I'll rat on you to X-Com.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 10 Dec 2015 19:46:24 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 19:58:45
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Myth Drannor has been ruined for hundreds of years now so where are all these humans that were supposedly going to invade the forest Realm?
Here's the reality of the situation. It would be too costly for a kingdom to try and destroy and rebuilt Myth Drannor from the ground. Shade had the advantage of being a floating city. Let's not forget the Mythal as well. There are still mages left who could get it working perfectly again and add to it if need be.
Let's also not forget that what destroyed Myth Drannor initially was a unique phenomena. We aren't talking about something that would be happening on a daily basis. The tree has been planted so the retreat is over, it's time for the return and there is nothing stopping the elves from doing this except authors of books. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 20:35:34
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Either that, or the elves will want to hunt down all survivors of Shade. Instead of blaming their Coronal, I can see them blaming Shade. Kind of how Shevarashans go after drow, perhaps a group of elves (such as the isolationists) will form a band and hunt down Shadovar. This is all speculation, of course. A few might blame Ilsevele, but I can't see enough of them blaming her to form an uprising.
I don't think Ilsevele would face an uprising that would oust her from power. This is because of the Ar'Cor'Kerym / Ruler's Blade. So long as she wields that, she is the undisputed rightful ruler of Cormanthyr. However, the blade doesn't make her a tyrant. She doesn't have the power or the real authority to suppress dissenting voices (at least not without risking the blade turning against her).
This means that while she may be regarded as the "rightful" ruler of their kingdom, there is still the matter of how much power and legitimacy that she has as a ruler. There is always the possibility of being reduced to the status of a mere figurehead, for example.
Her problem is that people are going to have real and legitimate grievances. Not just those that arise from their current situation, but there are going to be people who had prior grievances who are going to see it as their opportunity to act. And understand, from their perspective, this does not have to be malicious or ill intended. They can have legitimate disagreements over how the kingdom was governed and her performance as their ruler, and want to take the kingdom in a different direction. It may not necessarily mean it is in the direction that is in the best interest of the kingdom, but they as individuals may not see that whether it is due to some personal limitation such as personal bias, or because they simply have an ideologically different point of view of what is best for the Elves in the long term.
The one thing that is going to unite all elves in the aftermath, and this is why I can't imagine Ilsevele not going this route, is the fact that everyone is going to want to retake Myth Drannor. It is their home. It is the location of the Tree of Souls. Abandoning it is not an option. Thus, this is going to unite all the internal factions all the way from the EV to the most Cosmopolitan of Elves.
So, this is what buys her time. However, she cannot afford any delays on retaking the city. If retaking the city is delayed for whatever reason (let's say the portal to Evermeet is no longer functioning and she does not have the forces to retake the city without reinforcement from Evermeet), then the internal strife could very well overtake her--this is when she is at her most vulnerable.
Once she has Myth Drannor back her position is more stable at this point. ...and then yeah, she could try and redirect some of the frustrations and blame toward any survivors of Shade. However, that could get very ugly, very quickly, as it is not like every survivor of Shade is necessarily equally guilty or deserving of death. And where does that end? Should they go after Sembian's as well, since they were involved? What if their are mercenaries in the Dalelands, and the particular mercenaries in question have enough political power to avoid having the local leadership hand them over?
It is to her advantage to point the finger at the survivors of the Shade Empire, but what does that look like in practice? The more justice, good, and noble she tries to appear, the weaker she is going to look for those Elves who are thirsting for vengeance over the death of loved ones and the defilement of their city.
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Myth Drannor has been ruined for hundreds of years now so where are all these humans that were supposedly going to invade the forest Realm?
Here's the reality of the situation. It would be too costly for a kingdom to try and destroy and rebuilt Myth Drannor from the ground. Shade had the advantage of being a floating city. Let's not forget the Mythal as well. There are still mages left who could get it working perfectly again and add to it if need be.
Let's also not forget that what destroyed Myth Drannor initially was a unique phenomena. We aren't talking about something that would be happening on a daily basis. The tree has been planted so the retreat is over, it's time for the return and there is nothing stopping the elves from doing this except authors of books.
I agree entirely. There really are no humans--especially not from the Dales--who are going to invade the Elves. Once backed up by Evermeet, they simply aren't going to have the forces to win in a straight up war. The only power that will be able to threaten them will be Cormyr, which will at least initially start out on good terms.
Once they are reinforced from Evermeet, they aren't in any real danger. They are going to become the major power of the region, surpassing even Cormyr, unless they begin annexing the remnants of Sembia. If not, Cormyr becomes the junior partner in their alliance, and Myth Drannor will ultimately be able to dictate how things operate in the region.
As you point out, the Retreat is over. The Return has begun. It was blunted horribly by the disappearance of Evermeet. However, Evermeet is now back. There is no reason the Return should not pick up where it left off, and the forest should quickly be populated with tens of thousands -- if not hundreds of thousands -- of Elves over the next decade or so. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 20:44:31
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| As as I said, it's just speculation. I'm not saying they should go after Shade, and they might very well not. They could focus all their efforts on retaking Myth Drannor, and once they have, then they will have some options: go after Shade, work on strengthening MD's defenses so there isn't a third destruction. I also don't think that the entire elven force would be sent after Shade, which is why I used to example of Shevarashans. At most, it would likely be a group of angry individuals. It wouldn't make sense for the whole force to go after them, or Sembia, because, even if EV stepped in to help, they need to devote their resources to securing Myth Drannor. Dividing their forces wouls weaken the city and leave it vulnerable again. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 21:16:36
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
As as I said, it's just speculation. I'm not saying they should go after Shade, and they might very well not. They could focus all their efforts on retaking Myth Drannor, and once they have, then they will have some options: go after Shade, work on strengthening MD's defenses so there isn't a third destruction. I also don't think that the entire elven force would be sent after Shade, which is why I used to example of Shevarashans. At most, it would likely be a group of angry individuals. It wouldn't make sense for the whole force to go after them, or Sembia, because, even if EV stepped in to help, they need to devote their resources to securing Myth Drannor. Dividing their forces wouls weaken the city and leave it vulnerable again.
Technically, everything we've posted in this thread is speculation. 
Mostly, because if I am being truthful, I don't think WotC or the authors will handle it in any way like what I have outlined. They are likely to leave Myth Drannor abandoned, continue to ignore the tree (as they have done so far), and gloss over the horror that has taken place among the Elves of Myth Drannor. They are going to get a happy fantasy version of war, where no one speaks of casualties, where refugees are met with all the resources that they need to resettle and get right back on their feet, and everyone still loves their leader believing her extra brave, strong, intelligent, and wonderful.
If you want my honest assessment of what is going to happen, I just outlined it. In canon, it is very unlikely that the Elves leave Semberholme, which is where the bulk of the refugees are currently located. It is likely that Ilsevele Miritar becomes known as something like the Coronal in Exile, and then is largely ignored by canon moving forward as she hangs out in Semberholme, ruling from there.
That is my best guess as to where canon is going. If they have to address the Tree of Souls and its portal to Evermeet, they will likely wave their hands and say it malfunctioned during the Spellplague. If they are forced to address the power of the Tree itself and the High Magic the Elves can use without penalty, once again, hand wave--the Spellplague broke it.
It makes me horribly sad. So, instead of focusing on the horror that is Realms canon, I prefer to speculate with you on what could and should happen. Maybe people will take it up and use it in their home Realms, as a lot of what I am discussing is inspired by the direction my home Realms went as a result of the Tree of Souls being planted.
My concern with sending out groups such as the Sheverashans, is... well... we know how they can be. They are fairly indiscriminate, and how do you tell a former supporter of Shade from any other human living in the region?
Basically, this is going to look a lot like Ilsevele Miritar sending out death squads to engage in revenge killings and ethnic cleansing. That is what it is going to look like in practice.
If she wants to avoid those appearances, she can target major survivors of Shade--individuals who played some prominent role in the war or government. However, there is the issue of apprehending those individuals. Then there is the issue of what to do with them. Once you find them, do you simply have them assassinated by said death squads? Or do you bring them back to Myth Drannor to stand trial and answer for their crimes? If you bring them back to Myth Drannor, where do you house them? How do you keep them safe from an Elven population that is going to want them dangling from the nearest tree? Is the trial going to be a show trial, or are they going to be able to provide an honest defense? If there is an honest defense, what happens if they are found innocent of the charges levied against them? Are you going to let them go? How will the people respond?
All of this ignores the fact that, if you only target prominent individuals, will it be enough to satisfy the Elves? |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 21:32:05
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| Well it wouldn't be the Shevarashans specifically, it would be a group -like- them, but instead of going after drow, they would go after Shadovar. I used Shevs as a comparison because that's what it made me think of. And that's why I said I doubt it would be the whole elven force. It would be a group, consisting of elves were out for vengeance and were particularly angry at Shade. If it turns out Ilsevele did want to target Shadovar, it would likely only be those prominent individuals, since as I mentioned in my previous post, they cannot spare the resources to go after all Shadovar. Which is why, if there were individual elves who were particularly vindictive, they might form a group that is -like- the Shevarashans and target all Shadovar, but this would not be a decision made by Ilsevele, nor would it be the best option. But it is a possibility that some individuals band together and form a group that is similar to the Shevs, where they vow not to rest until all Shadovar are dead. This group would likely not be supported by the rest of Myth Drannor, and like the Shevs, would be viewed as extreme. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 21:50:25
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Well it wouldn't be the Shevarashans specifically, it would be a group -like- them, but instead of going after drow, they would go after Shadovar. I used Shevs as a comparison because that's what it made me think of. And that's why I said I doubt it would be the whole elven force. It would be a group, consisting of elves were out for vengeance and were particularly angry at Shade. If it turns out Ilsevele did want to target Shadovar, it would likely only be those prominent individuals, since as I mentioned in my previous post, they cannot spare the resources to go after all Shadovar. Which is why, if there were individual elves who were particularly vindictive, they might form a group that is -like- the Shevarashans and target all Shadovar, but this would not be a decision made by Ilsevele, nor would it be the best option. But it is a possibility that some individuals band together and form a group that is similar to the Shevs, where they vow not to rest until all Shadovar are dead. This group would likely not be supported by the rest of Myth Drannor, and like the Shevs, would be viewed as extreme.
I can definitely see that happening. The only problem with that is how does such a group avoid basically evolving into a roving death squad? How do they avoid the appearance of ethnic cleansing? How do they avoid targeting relatively innocent people?
We know how the Shevarashans react. They will kill all drow--any drow--that they find. They struggle to even acknowledge the existence of good aligned Drow, and if given leave, they would kill them as well.
So, it is easy to imagine a situation where this anti-Shade force locates some guy whose only crime is something like... say... being a merchant or a farmer in the Shade Empire, and just butchering him to death simply for the "crime" of being born under the rule of the Shadovar.
Certainly, one could direct that anger and frustration at the people who physically became Shadovar, but of course there are more people guilty than just Shadovar. There are a lot of Sembian's hands that are just as bloody.
Then there is the matter of how Ilsevele deals with this group. What if they are accused of committing atrocities? What if, say, the Cormyrian's are angry at something they've done, and want to put them on trial? Is she going to hand over fellow Elves to Cormyr to stand trial at the hands of humans? What does that do to her support at home? What happens if Cormyr has acted in good faith with Ilsevele, handing over criminals that they've captured to stand trial in Myth Drannor, but Ilsevele won't respond in kind?
It is hard for me to imagine Ilsevele handing over an Elf--any Elf--to stand trial in human courts. She would want to handle these things internally, and even if not the pressure to do so would be enormous. Elves are very funny about allowing outsiders to see those types of internal weaknesses, flaws, and struggles. There is also the propaganda imagery of humans standing trial over a group of elves, and then executing them for their crimes. I can't imagine that would play well at home, no matter the crimes committed. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 22:15:21
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Hmmm, well I think it would depend on just how vindictive this group (I'm going to call them Shadovar hunters for the sake of the discussion, if that's all right) became. I think if they went around killing any and all Shadovar, Ilsevele (and all other elves for that matter) would want to distance herself from the hunters, just as they distance themselves from the Shevs. If atrocities are committed, then you are right, Ilsevele would want a trial in the elven court, not in Cormyr or another human city. Either that, or the Shadovar hunters would become outcasts from elven society, somewhat like how certain followers of Fenmarel have committed crimes and are outsiders, so it would be like if you blended Fenmarans and Shevs. It would depend on how extreme the Shadovar hunters became.
Either that, or, since the Shadovar are largely hated by most Faerunians, the hunters would find support from the other races. Perhaps this is unlikely, but not impossible.
As for Sembia, I think for now at least, the elves would want to avoid further conflict with them, unless the Sembians cause more trouble. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 22:53:42
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| I just really get the feeling a lot of what's gone on with the elves takes too much from Tolkien where the elves were the dominant power at one time and then gradually they all left so humans, hobbits, and dwarves adopted the land. I really want to see the might of the elves returned because I am sick and tired of the People being held back. Through the years there is always something that is keeping the elves from returning to something great. I'm not sure what the motive has been through the years to keep them always struggling and never really getting back on their feet. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 22:55:48
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| Targeting anyone at the moment would be suicide to be honest. What happened to the elves patience that used to be frequent? They live a long time and are a smart race of people. The best thing to do is reestablish yourself and build your defenses first before worrying about revenge. Secure your hold before you go reaching for the next one. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 23:03:21
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I agree completely about the elves constantly being in retreat. Something always gets in the way. I'm tired of it too. I also agree about them focusing on re-establising themselves, which is what I suggested in an earlier post. Which is why any group of hunters that formed would pretty much be on their own, since Ilsevele would likely want to focus elven resources on regaining some sort of foothold on Myth Drannor, notto mention taking care of the refugees.
The Shadovar hunting group would be an extreme, and not in the interest of the majority of the elves. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 23:06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Hmmm, well I think it would depend on just how vindictive this group (I'm going to call them Shadovar hunters for the sake of the discussion, if that's all right) became. I think if they went around killing any and all Shadovar, Ilsevele (and all other elves for that matter) would want to distance herself from the hunters, just as they distance themselves from the Shevs. If atrocities are committed, then you are right, Ilsevele would want a trial in the elven court, not in Cormyr or another human city. Either that, or the Shadovar hunters would become outcasts from elven society, somewhat like how certain followers of Fenmarel have committed crimes and are outsiders, so it would be like if you blended Fenmarans and Shevs. It would depend on how extreme the Shadovar hunters became.
Either that, or, since the Shadovar are largely hated by most Faerunians, the hunters would find support from the other races. Perhaps this is unlikely, but not impossible.
As for Sembia, I think for now at least, the elves would want to avoid further conflict with them, unless the Sembians cause more trouble.
Isn't Sembia in absolute chaos, and is basically a failed state? Certainly, there are a number of groups fighting for power, but essentially, there is no longer a central government, right? They are pretty much in civil war (whether openly fighting one another or not)?
I ask this for two reasons.
First, because I don't think Sembia could muster any threat to the Elves of Myth Drannor, and as a result they should more-or-less be able to act with impunity. In fact Shadovar Hunters would likely find quarters of support there, despite their dislike of Elves, because the Sembian's would see them as useful tools to settle old scores against those who benefited from Shadovar rule or were / remain Shadovar loyalists. Of course, there is also the possibility that the Shadovar Hunters could be used to settle scores with non-Shadovar loyalists as well. (I am not sure that Elves who are committed to vengeance would particularly care about what humans they are killing, especially if it is Sembians. In their mind one Sembian is likely as guilty as another, and working with one particular Sembian is likely a means to an end--a lesser evil to get the greater evil.)
Second, because what happens to Sembia matters a lot to Cormyr. It is hard for me to believe that Cormyr does not try and move to annex more of Sembia's territory. Especially as they'd want to clean out any remaining Shadovar loyalists. On the surface this seems like a good deal for the Shadovar Hunters, as they could easily align with Cormyr to assist them. They might do that. However, Cormyr isn't really interested in vengeance, they are interested in a political solution that will result in stability in the region. Shadovar Hunters are going to want vengeance. So, even if they start out working together, there is going to be a point where their goals are easily in opposition. For example, let us say that a former prominent member of the Empire of Shade military holds control of a chunk of territory. He is willing to renounce his loyalty to the Shade Empire, kneel before the Cormyrian crown, and bring his lands under their rule. In exchange, the Cormyrian crown promises to grant him a noble title, and the right to rule the lands he currently controls. This is a fantastic deal for both sides that avoids further bloodshed. However, the Shadovar Hunters are not going to care about that, they are going to want that guys head. Especially if they know he's murdered Elves, which--lets face it--he probably has. Ilsevele's interest likely align largely with the Cormyrian crown, and so she likely would not look unfavorably upon the deal even if she hated that particular human for what he's done. It's in the best interest of all in the long run. Shadovar Hunters don't care. They scuttle the deal and kill that guy after he's been placed under the protection of Cormyr. Now this has created an international incident. Cormyr is going to be required to demand that the Elves responsible be handed over. There is no way around it. Ilsevele is not going to be able to do it, of course. This is going to create conflict between Myth Drannor and Cormyr.
However, take the Shadovar Hunters out of the equation for a moment. Let's say everything about the Cormyr scenario is the same. A former high ranking member of the Shadovar military who has control over a chunk of Sembia is pledging his allegiance to Cormyr. This brings about a peaceful resolution to a problem, preventing further bloodshed. However, this ranking member of the Shadovar military was involved on the siege of Myth Drannor. Not only did he kill Elves, he was involved in the looting, and that is how he has obtained some of his wealth. He is willing to denounce his ties to the Shades, be completely loyal to Cormyr, the War Wizards have mind probed him and can vouch for his honesty and truthfulness, all that is required is for Cormyr to set aside the actions he performed while working for the Shades. It is in their interest to do so, and so they do. A bit of time passes, and the Elves hear about this. Whether from a group like the Shadovar Hunters or a group like the EV. Regardless, this guy becomes known in Myth Drannor. It is in Ilsevele's best interest to allow this guy to reform his ways, and let the past stay in the past. Stability is important, and doing anything else will lead to more unnecessary bloodshed. Yet, the politics of the situation is going to force her to demand Cormyr hand him over to Myth Drannor to stand trial. Cormyr, of course, cannot comply with that demand. Ilsevele can, of course, turn to her people and say, 'Well, I tried guys. Sorry, but Cormyr said no.' That, naturally, isn't going to fly very well in Myth Drannor. It is going to make her look weak when dealing with the humans. However, unless she is willing to press the issue more aggressively, it is the best she is going to be able to do. This isn't going to stop a group like the Shadovar Hunters or the EV from hunting down this guy and assassinating him--which is pretty much a done deal the moment Cormyr refuses to hand him over. Of course, Cormyr is going to believe that Ilsevele was behind this action--especially if she ratcheted up tensions for politics at home. Even if not, they are going to demand that Myth Drannor hand over the obvious criminals. Myth Drannor is not going to be able to do that, in large part because they aren't going to be viewed as criminals back home. They are going to be viewed as the people who brought them justice, while Ilsevele pleaded with humans that were harboring the war criminal.
I paint this particular picture, because after war a lot of conflict looks like this, and you mention the fact that Ilsevele may try and distance herself from them or make them outcasts. The problem is that I don't necessarily think she can do that successfully, because in large part I think most Elves would be supportive of them. They may not support their tactics. They may not support their utter devotion to that particular cause, but they will see them as the hands of justice--the people who are striking back at those who murdered their loved ones and defiled their city. That is the way they will be seen by most Elves. So, while they may not agree with everything they do, they will enjoy some measure of popular Elven support. As a result, while Ilsevele can distance herself personally from them, they are still going to enjoy safe haven in Myth Drannor as she largely turns a blind eye to their actions. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 23:22:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I just really get the feeling a lot of what's gone on with the elves takes too much from Tolkien where the elves were the dominant power at one time and then gradually they all left so humans, hobbits, and dwarves adopted the land. I really want to see the might of the elves returned because I am sick and tired of the People being held back. Through the years there is always something that is keeping the elves from returning to something great. I'm not sure what the motive has been through the years to keep them always struggling and never really getting back on their feet.
I agree. I love the fact that the Elves returned. That is why, in my home Realms, I had it happen. Both the Elves and Cormyr are the dominant powers in the region. What I love so much about the Elves returning is the inevitable tensions and conflict it causes--it is such a wonderful thing for plots, and it is more interesting than having the Zhents (some type of "obvious" bad guys) there as the punching bag. It is a morally gray conflict, where sometimes one side is right, at other times the other side is right, and neither side has clean hands.
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Targeting anyone at the moment would be suicide to be honest. What happened to the elves patience that used to be frequent? They live a long time and are a smart race of people. The best thing to do is reestablish yourself and build your defenses first before worrying about revenge. Secure your hold before you go reaching for the next one.
You are looking at things from a rational and objective point of view. You are not wrong to say that, as it would be in the interest of the Elves to do exactly what you are stating. However, there is no reason to believe that, based on what has just happened in canon, that the Elves should either be calm, rational, or objective on the situation.
Literally, just try and imagine yourself as the average elf. You are learning that half your city is dead. Multiple people that you know and love are dead, including people in your family--children, brothers, sisters, parents, grand parents, etc. You are watching others in extreme grief as result, and you are experiencing extreme grief as well. You know people who survived the conflict, but are maimed as a result--they've lost limbs. You know people who are suffering from extreme PTSD as a result of the conflict. Suicide rates are sky high as a result of all of this, as would be expected, and as happens in the real world. You are an economically destitute refugee, who had to flee with only what you could carry and had on your back. Your city and all that it symbolizes to your people has fallen, and is actively being looted and defiled by the people who killed those that you loved.
That is literally the situation that the Elves of Myth Drannor find themselves in at this very moment. Do you honestly expect them to be calm, rational, and objective? Or do you expect them to act more like Elves typically act when experiencing extreme grief and hardship?
You should look at it from the point of view of the Elves, and not as a neutral outside observer. Imagine what they are feeling, imagine what they are experiencing, and imagine how they'd want to react. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 23:35:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I just really get the feeling a lot of what's gone on with the elves takes too much from Tolkien where the elves were the dominant power at one time and then gradually they all left so humans, hobbits, and dwarves adopted the land. I really want to see the might of the elves returned because I am sick and tired of the People being held back. Through the years there is always something that is keeping the elves from returning to something great. I'm not sure what the motive has been through the years to keep them always struggling and never really getting back on their feet.
I agree. I love the fact that the Elves returned. That is why, in my home Realms, I had it happen. Both the Elves and Cormyr are the dominant powers in the region. What I love so much about the Elves returning is the inevitable tensions and conflict it causes--it is such a wonderful thing for plots, and it is more interesting than having the Zhents (some type of "obvious" bad guys) there as the punching bag. It is a morally gray conflict, where sometimes one side is right, at other times the other side is right, and neither side has clean hands.
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Targeting anyone at the moment would be suicide to be honest. What happened to the elves patience that used to be frequent? They live a long time and are a smart race of people. The best thing to do is reestablish yourself and build your defenses first before worrying about revenge. Secure your hold before you go reaching for the next one.
You are looking at things from a rational and objective point of view. You are not wrong to say that, as it would be in the interest of the Elves to do exactly what you are stating. However, there is no reason to believe that, based on what has just happened in canon, that the Elves should either be calm, rational, or objective on the situation.
Literally, just try and imagine yourself as the average elf. You are learning that half your city is dead. Multiple people that you know and love are dead, including people in your family--children, brothers, sisters, parents, grand parents, etc. You are watching others in extreme grief as result, and you are experiencing extreme grief as well. You know people who survived the conflict, but are maimed as a result--they've lost limbs. You know people who are suffering from extreme PTSD as a result of the conflict. Suicide rates are sky high as a result of all of this, as would be expected, and as happens in the real world. You are an economically destitute refugee, who had to flee with only what you could carry and had on your back. Your city and all that it symbolizes to your people has fallen, and is actively being looted and defiled by the people who killed those that you loved.
That is literally the situation that the Elves of Myth Drannor find themselves in at this very moment. Do you honestly expect them to be calm, rational, and objective? Or do you expect them to act more like Elves typically act when experiencing extreme grief and hardship?
You should look at it from the point of view of the Elves, and not as a neutral outside observer. Imagine what they are feeling, imagine what they are experiencing, and imagine how they'd want to react.
Elves are not stupid by any means and they will not rush into a situation that will leave them dead. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 23:45:06
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| The Shadovar hunters (or other extremist group, for lack of a better term) would be formed by those elves who are particularly mad with grief and/or anger. Elves can be given to strong emotion, but I think, in spite of the grief, most would likely be more focused on regaining a foothold and making sure the People are safe. Most elves hate drow, but the Shevarashans are a rather small group, made up of those so filled with hatred they can't get past it, except via vengeance. That's why most elves, though certainly grief-stricken, are unlikely to act rashly. They would turn their attention towards either regaining MD or aiding each other as refugees. I think only a few would be so "mad with grief" they would act out in extremes. If anything, they are more likely to project that grief/anger into regaining MD, which would likely involve fighting, but is not to the extreme. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 23:52:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Elves are not stupid by any means and they will not rush into a situation that will leave them dead.
I am not saying they are stupid, and I don't think they are going to rush into a situation that will leave them dead. Simply put, the Dalelands is never going to raise arms against them officially, so long as they do not march on them militarily. Cormyr has no interest in a costly war with the Elves.
What you have, worst case scenario, is a situation like in my Realms where there is a low level simmering conflict taking place on the local level. You have some Elves attacking this or that group of humans, this group of humans attack this group or that group of Elves. The leaders on all sides want to avoid open war because such a war would be too costly for them, and it is unclear who would come out on top--though if people had to guess, it would probably be the Elves.
That is what it is like in my Realms. Tensions are incredibly high, with low level and local conflict, with the constant danger that things could spiral out of control into something larger at any moment.
But of course, in my Realms, there are roughly a million Elves living in the Forest in multiple settlements. They are also occupying several Dales, and are building settlements there. However, this is after over decades and decades and decades of conflict.
Tensions would start out no where near that high currently in canon. However, because they have access to Evermeet again, there is no reason to believe that they won't have tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Elves coming through the Tree of Souls portal to support them, help them rebuild Myth Drannor, and put the Return back on track. Understand, though, if this happens, the Elves are in zero danger of being in a situation that is going to leave them dead. They are going to be the dominant power in the region.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 23:58:51
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The Shadovar hunters (or other extremist group, for lack of a better term) would be formed by those elves who are particularly mad with grief and/or anger. Elves can be given to strong emotion, but I think, in spite of the grief, most would likely be more focused on regaining a foothold and making sure the People are safe. Most elves hate drow, but the Shevarashans are a rather small group, made up of those so filled with hatred they can't get past it, except via vengeance. That's why most elves, though certainly grief-stricken, are unlikely to act rashly. They would turn their attention towards either regaining MD or aiding each other as refugees. I think only a few would be so "mad with grief" they would act out in extremes. If anything, they are more likely to project that grief/anger into regaining MD, which would likely involve fighting, but is not to the extreme.
I don't disagree. My point was not that most Elves would join such a group, but rather, most Elves would sympathize with such a group and understand their reason for existence. They may not agree with all of the actions of the group and they may not agree with its tactics, but they understand the reasons they do what they do.
After that, all it really takes is a couple dozen Elves doing their own thing to cause problems. |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 00:16:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I don't think WotC or the authors will handle it in any way like what I have outlined. They are likely to leave Myth Drannor abandoned, continue to ignore the tree (as they have done so far)
The thing is, WoTC hasn't ignored the tree; it's survival of the seige is specifically mentioned on WoTC's own website!
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/after-fall
quote:
When the city of Thultanthar began flying from its usual location above Anauroch toward Myth Drannor, the Srinshee foresaw the danger to the Tree of Souls, which had been planted at the heart of the resettled elven city. So she started visiting all of the surviving baelnorn guarding family crypts under Myth Drannor, and she commanded or cajoled them (whatever worked for each guardian) to get to the Tree of Souls and magically shield and defend it with all their might. Scores of them obeyed her and warped the Weave around the tree to form a conical protective barrier around it—so when the Netherese city came crashing down, the Tree survived, and the cone of baelnorn and their magic punched up through the stone of the descending city like a great fang or spike.
Presumably this is canon, so unless WoTC are going to ignore/forget canon lore on their own site, I think we can expect to hear more about the tree, and the efforts to reclaim it (and by extension, Myth Drannor) in future updates.
At least I hope so....... |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 00:42:43
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| I remember reading that. They should have mentioned it in the SCAG though. They barely talked about MD at all, except saying it had been destroyed. For those who don't frequent their site, they are rightly going to wonder what happened to the Tree. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 00:43:23
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quote:
Originally posted by BenN
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I don't think WotC or the authors will handle it in any way like what I have outlined. They are likely to leave Myth Drannor abandoned, continue to ignore the tree (as they have done so far)
The thing is, WoTC hasn't ignored the tree; it's survival of the seige is specifically mentioned on WoTC's own website!
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/after-fall
quote:
When the city of Thultanthar began flying from its usual location above Anauroch toward Myth Drannor, the Srinshee foresaw the danger to the Tree of Souls, which had been planted at the heart of the resettled elven city. So she started visiting all of the surviving baelnorn guarding family crypts under Myth Drannor, and she commanded or cajoled them (whatever worked for each guardian) to get to the Tree of Souls and magically shield and defend it with all their might. Scores of them obeyed her and warped the Weave around the tree to form a conical protective barrier around it—so when the Netherese city came crashing down, the Tree survived, and the cone of baelnorn and their magic punched up through the stone of the descending city like a great fang or spike.
Presumably this is canon, so unless WoTC are going to ignore/forget canon lore on their own site, I think we can expect to hear more about the tree, and the efforts to reclaim it (and by extension, Myth Drannor) in future updates.
At least I hope so.......
Yes, that is part of what Ed posted here at Candlekeep awhile back in response to you, who put questions to him that I was raising after the publishing of the Herald where he had forgotten to include anything about the Tree of Souls. (I quoted that entire post made by THO earlier in this thread.)
My point wasn't that Ed was ignoring the Tree of Souls (though he obviously forgot to include anything about it in the Herald--thus the emergency clean up), it was that WotC is not really interested in the inevitable outcome of what the Return actually symbolizes and means. Just as they are not interested in the obvious outcomes of what it means to have half of Myth Drannor literally dead and the realities of war pushed upon the Elves.
It seems to me that they largely planted the tree as an after thought to sort of serve as a capstone moment for their little 3E RSE involving the Elves. However, they did not really think about the consequences of what they were doing in the long run. As a result, the tree and the significance of it, has largely been overlooked in canon--to such a degree that even Ed Greenwood himself accidentally forgot about including information regarding the tree in his novel. ...when the tree should have been a central focus. After all, it could easily been argued, because the Elves can use High Magic freely and without penalty with the Tree, that they should have been able to easily smite pretty much all of those attacking their city. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 00:54:29
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I remember reading that. They should have mentioned it in the SCAG though. They barely talked about MD at all, except saying it had been destroyed. For those who don't frequent their site, they are rightly going to wonder what happened to the Tree.
I don't have the SCAG. What does it say specifically about Myth Drannor? You mentioned that it says it was destroyed. However, is it saying that ALL of Myth Drannor is destroyed, or only a few blocks of it? Ed's lore here and elsewhere has a few blocks of Myth Drannor destroyed. However, if the SCAG is saying that Myth Drannor is in total ruins and is destroyed, this would overwrite what Ed has stated previously here and elsewhere. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 00:58:14
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| It doesn't specify. There isn't even a section about Myth Drannor. It just a couple times in paragraphs about other things that Myth Drannor was destroyed, though they make it sound like it was most of the city. Even Ed made it sound that way in the Herald. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 01:06:08
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
It doesn't specify. There isn't even a section about Myth Drannor. It just a couple times in paragraphs about other things that Myth Drannor was destroyed, though they make it sound like it was most of the city. Even Ed made it sound that way in the Herald.
Yes, I assumed it was most of the city as well, until Ed said otherwise here. Which way do you think they'll go in canon? Do you think they'll try and limit it to only a few blocks, as Ed has stated here, or do you think they'll try and say that the entire city is destroyed?
Also, what do you think about how they'll play the issue of the Tree of Souls and how it allows the Elves to have access to High Magic without penalty? How do you think they'll play the fact that Evermeet is back, and the Tree of Souls portal? |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 01:10:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Which way do you think they'll go in canon? Do you think they'll try and limit it to only a few blocks, as Ed has stated here, or do you think they'll try and say that the entire city is destroyed?
The article on WoTC's website says
quote:
a few blocks of central Myth Drannor are rubble
And this is canon. (right?) |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 01:15:45
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quote:
Originally posted by BenN
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Which way do you think they'll go in canon? Do you think they'll try and limit it to only a few blocks, as Ed has stated here, or do you think they'll try and say that the entire city is destroyed?
The article on WoTC's website says
quote:
a few blocks of central Myth Drannor are rubble
And this is canon. (right?)
Not if it is overwritten by a source book. Basically, what Ed says is canon and what is posted on the website is canon unless it is overwritten in a novel or source book. I think the lore hierarchy goes something like this (from least to greatest): Ed > Website / Other Official Source (such as a Magazine Article, Video Game, Comic Book, etc.) > Official Adventure > Novel > Source Book. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11927 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 02:18:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Wow, that just puts a definite spin on things. You know what.... I wonder if the surface elves would put a call out to their spelljamming brethren in the Elven Imperial Fleet? I could definitely see the fleet being interested in securing a 100 mile area wherein high magic can be cast at no cost that expands every year.
High Magic seems to be just a thing for elves of the Realms -- I've not seen references to it outside of Realmspace (I'm actually not recalling any references beyond Toril).
And yet the Elven Imperial Fleet could benefit from the magical castings of High Mages (for instance, I'd imagine that High Magic could make some very sweet spelljamming vessels, weapons, portable defenses, etc...).... and in return provide valuable defense to those High Mages in securing territory (and possibly learning secrets from the High Mages that otherwise the Faerunian Elves might have kept to themselves). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2449 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 03:11:51
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Either that, or the elves will want to hunt down all survivors of Shade. Instead of blaming their Coronal, I can see them blaming Shade.
Oh, they don't like the Netherese, all right. But the Netherese are still (mostly) humans.
The main problem is inevitable everyday frictions with human neighbours, possibly escalating into open hostilities and then total war.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I don't think Ilsevele would face an uprising that would oust her from power.
Oust, no. Undermine her actual authority or try to push her in some or other direction, why not?
quote:
This is because of the Ar'Cor'Kerym / Ruler's Blade. So long as she wields that, she is the undisputed rightful ruler of Cormanthyr.
Theoretically, yes. Practically - tell that to Eltargrim. And he was relieved when it finally was an open attack rather than backstabbing.
quote:
The one thing that is going to unite all elves in the aftermath, and this is why I can't imagine Ilsevele not going this route, is the fact that everyone is going to want to retake Myth Drannor. It is their home. It is the location of the Tree of Souls. Abandoning it is not an option. Thus, this is going to unite all the internal factions all the way from the EV to the most Cosmopolitan of Elves.
Yes. But this in itself immediately calls attention to the difference between "Myth Drannor" and "Cormanthor": how much will the humans (and gnomes, and halflings, and dwarves) participate from day one?
quote:
Should they go after Sembian's as well, since they were involved?
And that was just the last straw. Between the recent events, ancient hostilities and overall being the lest "elf-friendly" neighbour of neo-Cormanthyr, Sembia is going to be where most "elves vs. humans" issues collect.
But from there the problem will spread. Far too much trade is going through and from Sembia. And what Cormyr is going to do?
quote:
What if their are mercenaries in the Dalelands, and the particular mercenaries in question have enough political power to avoid having the local leadership hand them over?
Maybe not in the Dales, but there can be a lot of this. Then again, the Elves are infamous exactly for... not being very particular in this, in that they'd often choose genocide over investigation.
quote:
It is to her advantage to point the finger at the survivors of the Shade Empire, but what does that look like in practice?
In practice, it looks like hunting the shadows - often, literally. 
They are hiding, thus any newly arising issues are not with them. Which is yet another part of why they would make a bad lightning rod despite being so easy to hate.
quote:
There really are no humans--especially not from the Dales--who are going to invade the Elves. Once backed up by Evermeet, they simply aren't going to have the forces to win in a straight up war. The only power that will be able to threaten them will be Cormyr, which will at least initially start out on good terms.
Yup. No one will want a war... until and unless the situation will become utterly insufferable. Which is indeed possible, since you're right about pervasive border frictions that can sour everything and easily escalate.
Thus the real focus of the conflict would be: attempts to heat/cool/redirect these issues. On both "Elven" and "Human" sides.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
How active and powerful are the Harpers now in 5E? Essentially they were disbanded and then refounded. However, their primary focus was on defeating Shade (now achieved). That being said, I got the impression that they were now a rather minor organization and a shadow of their former selves.
A lot will depend on this, yes. If the Harpers and other sympathizers are too weak, it will lean more toward escalation, if strong - more toward recruitment of somewhat like-minded humans. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 11 Dec 2015 03:15:40 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 04:02:39
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Should they go after Sembian's as well, since they were involved?
And that was just the last straw. Between the recent events, ancient hostilities and overall being the lest "elf-friendly" neighbour of neo-Cormanthyr, Sembia is going to be where most "elves vs. humans" issues collect.
But from there the problem will spread. Far too much trade is going through and from Sembia. And what Cormyr is going to do?
This is exactly why I had Cormyr annex Sembia in my Realms. Things happened very differently, and for radically different reasons. However, all the motivations and political realities are the same.
The moment Shade is gone, Sembia is vulnerable and becomes a liability. Cormyr has already annexed chunks of it. Do they really want the Sembian's becoming a thorn in their side? Do they really want other groups--whether Zhents or folks from Westgate--causing trouble from that direction? Bringing Sembia under their thumb on the surface seems like a smart thing to do. It secures their borders, and increases their power and influence in the region. After being ruled by the Shades, it is not a particularly hard deal to strike with a lot of rulers who want their rule secure. Cormyr can back them up militarily, make them nobles, and essentially set up their family for generations to come. They also know they'll be treated more-or-less fairly under a Cormyrian government--better than they were treated under the Shades. There is also a rise of anti-Shade sentiment rising up there, people who are glad that the Shades are out of the picture, are rebelling against Shade-loyalist authorities, and are looking for support. Sembia is basically sitting there, heavily divided, and ripe for the taking.
So, Cormyr takes Sembia. However, Sembia has some baggage associated with it. Namely, they have a longstanding conflict with the Elves. Cormyr is going to expect the Myth Drannor government to be more-or-less competent and fair in their dealings. When their are grievances, they are going to expect the Myth Drannor government to work with them to address them. After all, they are allies.
However, Myth Drannor has its own internal politics that are going to work strongly against that. Cooperation is going to be less than Cormyr will like. Tensions are going to rise among their new Sembian subjects, and they are going to be turning to the Cormyrian government to have them addressed. The alliance is a little frayed in the beginning, and then there are these "little" incidents that happen that serve as escalating tension. Those "little" incidents keep happening, which eventually lead to important breaking points.
Meanwhile, you have stuff going down in the Dales. Dales folk are upset about this or that problem. There is growing concern about this or that issue involving the Elves. The Dales folk have no ability to deal with the Elves on any sort of equal power level, so naturally where are they going to turn? Cormyr.
Ilsevele Miritar will find herself playing this constant balancing game. She is trying to avoid escalation with the humans, so she tries to give just enough to appease them, but not so much that it upsets the people back at home. Of course, if you try and make everyone happy, you are going to make everyone unhappy because it means that people are not going to get what they ultimately want. So, it pretty much keeps her in this constant state of relative unpopularity at home and abroad.
When dictators usually find themselves in this position, they solve the problem by turning the peoples focus onto marginalized groups among their people to oppress. Alternatively, they start saber rattling for war. Putting the focus on outside groups or marginalized groups, allowing people to focus their energy and frustrations on them, is usually the key move that keeps dictators in power.
However, those are tools that are not available to Ilsevele Miritar. Not only would it be against her morality to do so, she also is held to a certain standard by the Rulers' Blade. |
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Tree of Souls: When will it be planted on Faerun?
