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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Nov 2015 : 19:40:08
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Okay fellow scribes I have been trying to wrap my head around this for some time but I can't seem to make the pieces fit. I will try my best to explain everything.
Now we all know that Corellon Larethian is the father of all elves and also holds the portfolio of magic. Now when the elves were at the height of their civilizations, humans were still living in caves and dragging their knuckles. If they had such disdain for humans, why did they Worship Mystra/Mystryl and does she hold sway over Corellon when it comes to magic? I don't understand why the deity of all magic would be a human goddess since elves were using magic first.
What about before humans were around when the Sarrukh ruled the planet? Was magic controlled by Mystryl then? Has the goddess of magic always been a human deity?
Gives me a bit of a headache trying to fit everything in order.
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“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2015 : 20:35:46
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| If you go by the mythology about Shar and Selűne, then Mystryl predates most life on the planet -- including elves. So it's not so much that she's a human deity, as it is that she's a kind of omni-racial one whose followers are primarily human. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2015 : 20:52:58
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| As far as I know, elves worship Corellon as their primary deity of magic. However, I agree with Wooly in that Mystra is far more than a human deity. Not only she is linked to the creation myth, but she also is the Weave, and IIRC the elves are deeply linked to it. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6398 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2015 : 21:12:08
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Well if you're like me, the mythology and all pervasiveness of Mystra/Mystryl just doesn't add up.
So I made up my own explanation.
Each pantheon has its own god of magic as you would expect. That way any magic use by a member of that pantheon (whether racial or geo-political) sends a bit of divine energy to that god because it is covered by his portfolio. Anyone worshipping a god of magic within that pantheon again gives power to that deity.
So any elf that practices magic enriches Corellon (unless Mystra is their patron), and any elf giving thanks or paying homage, or venerating magic or a deity of magic (without specifically naming one, although that would be unusual since almost all elves will have heard of corellon by now) again enriches Corellon unless Mystra is their patron.
The same goes for Mulhorandi (although it depends upon the perceived alignment of the magic), the same again for dwarves, sarrukh, gnomes, kobolds, etc. If they have a deity of magic and make some gesture or act regarding magic then it goes to that deity in that pantheon.
Mystra is of course the goddess of magic for the faerunian pantheon and so the same rules apply to her. However she is also the goddess of the weave and so some special rules apply here along with a special history.
The weave did not always exist. Before the Days of Thunder the planet was saturated with raw magic that would cause lesser beings to combust in its energy (of course lesser mortals did not include the sarrukh, batrachi, aearee, and fey).
The Weave was created during the days of thunder as part of the process of the Golden Skins of the World Serpent (and the silver scales of the great devourer, and the bronze feathers of the soaring avian). It took several thousand years, but the end result was an easily accessible, completely safe way of casting magic which at the same time protected everything from the harshness of raw magic.
However at this time there is still no mystryl/mystra. The Nether Scrolls are still just a means of accessing the weave directly, and a way that stores all the known spells.
During Netheril's time a being known as Avrauntra tried to educate the Netherese in the elven ways of magic. She failed as the terraseer secretly helped them find the nether scrolls instead. Finally towards the end of the Nether Age she disappeared, becoming a weave ghost, the first human (or part human) weave ghost.
Avrauntra gave the Nether Scrolls/the Weave intelligence, and a personality. She continued to try and guide the Netherese through appearances and whisperings in waking and dreams. This gave birth to the legends of the lady in grey, and also to a goddess of magic which would later become known as Mystryl.
So Mystryl became the goddess of magic for the netherese and was also the first god of the weave. She is the only god of magic that is able to cut of magic to any and every creature on Toril (overruling all other gods of magic if they wanted to do something contrary to her), but in doing so she weakens herself.
When the Weave faltered Mystryl was destroyed, but the Nether Scrolls persisted and the remnants of Avrauntra's weave ghost were reborn in her closest living relative, creating the goddess Mystra (something similar happened again to Midnight).
Mystryl is a relative new deity, prior to her each god of magic had total control within their own pantheon, but now Mystra has overriding control because she is literally the weave. However she would never be so foolish as to mess around with the weave and cut people off unless the entire planet was in danger because the chances of something going wrong are high and the results could be catastrophic (how do you suddenly reprogram a planet sized computer without getting something wrong).
Elves never worshipped Mystryl because she never existed. They might do so now, but not necessarily as a replacement for corellon as god of magic, they instead recognise she is the weave and worship her in that regard.
At least that's how I'm working it.
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2015 : 21:27:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If you go by the mythology about Shar and Selűne, then Mystryl predates most life on the planet -- including elves. So it's not so much that she's a human deity, as it is that she's a kind of omni-racial one whose followers are primarily human.
I would find it much more sensible that Mystra was an omni-racial goddess, but this is a big reason I have never liked racial pantheons. Or, at least I don't care for how FR uses them. Every major deity is de facto human, unless otherwise specified. Then some other races get whole pantheons, while others get only 1 or 2 deities, but none have the sheer variety of the human pantheon. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2015 : 22:13:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Then some other races get whole pantheons, while others get only 1 or 2 deities, but none have the sheer variety of the human pantheon.
Most of the other intelligent races lack the numbers or numerous different cultures of humanity. |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2015 : 22:29:49
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| And don't forget the Elves are interlopers. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2015 : 22:39:41
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| Torillean elves had (have?) access to lands beyond Toril. If you limit the Weave to only existing on Toril then it would make sense for elves to worship a god that has a presence in multiple planes/worlds. |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2015 : 22:53:51
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This is why I really like the way it's done in my Forgotten Realms homebrew.
In mine Mystra and her servants are merely shepherds who go around making sure the weave remains undamaged. They are all neutral and have no powers over the weave. Any deity who carries the portfolio of magic is a part of the weave so if you wanted to take over the weave you would need to take over Mystra, Corellion, Azuth, Savras, etc.... This ensures the weave is never in any kind of danger of being taken over. I feel like the canon version is putting all your important generals in the same bunker instead of spreading them out. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2015 : 23:40:56
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch
Torillean elves had (have?) access to lands beyond Toril.
Not without the use of magic, which puts them back in Mystra's territory.
And it's really not that common for elves to leave Toril -- at least, not while alive. |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2015 : 23:47:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch
Torillean elves had (have?) access to lands beyond Toril.
Not without the use of magic, which puts them back in Mystra's territory.
And it's really not that common for elves to leave Toril -- at least, not while alive.
My understanding of elves is that they came from another land (I believe it was the Plane of Faerie, but I might be getting things mixed up with 4th ed). If elves had their own deities when they first arrived in Faerun it would make sense for them to have their own god of magic. Also I believe the Spelljammer elves once had contact with the Evermeet elves so access to other realms isn't necessarily reliant on portals constructed within Faerun (assuming you treat Spelljammer as canon in Forgotten Realms. I don't know if the book on Evermeet or anything like that corroborated the contact between Faerun elves and Spelljammer elves). |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
Edited by - JohnLynch on 09 Nov 2015 23:48:55 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2015 : 23:53:06
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch
My understanding of elves is that they came from another land (I believe it was the Plane of Faerie, but I might be getting things mixed up with 4th ed). If elves had their own deities when they first arrived in Faerun it would make sense for them to have their own god of magic. Also I believe the Spelljammer elves once had contact with the Evermeet elves so access to other realms isn't necessarily reliant on portals constructed within Faerun (assuming you treat Spelljammer as canon in Forgotten Realms. I don't know if the book on Evermeet or anything like that corroborated the contact between Faerun elves and Spelljammer elves).
Yes, they come from the world of Tintageer, if we go by what Elaine Cunningham wrote in ''Evermeet: Islad of Elves''. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 05:24:20
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I believe Tintageer has been revealed to be from the Feywild.
Anyways none of the gods are humans, elves, dwarves, they're GODS. They just appear that way.
In the SCAG, likely because of the increasing Tiefling population in Faerun, the "human" Gods have began to appear to Tieflings in visions in Tiefling form.
Like Horned Goddess of the White Moon (Selune) for example.
In retrospect it actually makes Sharess' title of Succubi of Sensation actually make more sense, given that she had a history of recruiting Tieflings and Alu-Fiends (Cambions in 5e), perhaps they're is a connection. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 05:36:03
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch
Torillean elves had (have?) access to lands beyond Toril.
Not without the use of magic, which puts them back in Mystra's territory.
And it's really not that common for elves to leave Toril -- at least, not while alive.
My understanding of elves is that they came from another land (I believe it was the Plane of Faerie, but I might be getting things mixed up with 4th ed). If elves had their own deities when they first arrived in Faerun it would make sense for them to have their own god of magic. Also I believe the Spelljammer elves once had contact with the Evermeet elves so access to other realms isn't necessarily reliant on portals constructed within Faerun (assuming you treat Spelljammer as canon in Forgotten Realms. I don't know if the book on Evermeet or anything like that corroborated the contact between Faerun elves and Spelljammer elves).
You're correct on all counts, and Spelljammer is canon -- or at least, it once was. (And I'm obviously a huge fan of Spelljammer; it's where my username comes from!).
But my point was that on Toril, Mystra is the top dog, numero uno for magic. And while elves have come to the Realms from elsewhere and have the potential to go elsewhere, they can't do that without the use of magic. So them having their own deity of magic is immaterial within Realmspace, because Mystra controls magic in the sphere.
The way I prefer to spin the Corellon/Mystra thing is that Mystra controls the magic in general, but Corellon controls how elves use it and how it's a part of them. It's similar to Leira and illusion magic: Leira's followers get their juice from Mystra, but they apply Leira's teachings to that juice. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1570 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 10:50:23
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Mystra is THE goddess of all magic, the tradeoff being that she's only a single sphere greater power whereas Corellon is venerated across multiple crystal spheres. On neutral ground, Corellon can tell her where to stuff her portfolio.
Likewise, Mystra can't walk into Gehenna and dictate terms to Math Mathonwy, or challenge Wee Jas or Boccob's stewardship over their own portfolios unless it pertains to the Realms. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 13:40:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I would find it much more sensible that Mystra was an omni-racial goddess, but this is a big reason I have never liked racial pantheons. Or, at least I don't care for how FR uses them. Every major deity is de facto human, unless otherwise specified. Then some other races get whole pantheons, while others get only 1 or 2 deities, but none have the sheer variety of the human pantheon.
It's not the human pantheon, it's the Faerűnian pantheon, and outside racial enclaves Faerűnian society happens to be predominantly human. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 14:01:38
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Mystra is THE goddess of all magic, the tradeoff being that she's only a single sphere greater power whereas Corellon is venerated across multiple crystal spheres. On neutral ground, Corellon can tell her where to stuff her portfolio.
Likewise, Mystra can't walk into Gehenna and dictate terms to Math Mathonwy, or challenge Wee Jas or Boccob's stewardship over their own portfolios unless it pertains to the Realms.
At the end of Elminster in Hell, she pretty much walked in there and told Asmodeus what was up. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 17:03:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Mystra is THE goddess of all magic, the tradeoff being that she's only a single sphere greater power whereas Corellon is venerated across multiple crystal spheres. On neutral ground, Corellon can tell her where to stuff her portfolio.
Likewise, Mystra can't walk into Gehenna and dictate terms to Math Mathonwy, or challenge Wee Jas or Boccob's stewardship over their own portfolios unless it pertains to the Realms.
At the end of Elminster in Hell, she pretty much walked in there and told Asmodeus what was up.
Not really.
She just made him forget. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
Edited by - Shadowsoul on 10 Nov 2015 17:04:35 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 18:54:43
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| For my Mystra is the goddes of Weave itself - she is lawful neutral (Midnight just didn't settled into position yet) and have to use lot of her time maintaining the web of magic. All other gods with magic portfolio are the same as Azuth as god of some type of users of magic (Azuth - mages generaly, Corellion - elven mages, Isis - mulhorandi mages, ...) |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1570 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 01:56:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Mystra is THE goddess of all magic, the tradeoff being that she's only a single sphere greater power whereas Corellon is venerated across multiple crystal spheres. On neutral ground, Corellon can tell her where to stuff her portfolio.
Likewise, Mystra can't walk into Gehenna and dictate terms to Math Mathonwy, or challenge Wee Jas or Boccob's stewardship over their own portfolios unless it pertains to the Realms.
At the end of Elminster in Hell, she pretty much walked in there and told Asmodeus what was up.
Mr Greenwood's cosmology functions differently from the mainstream Great Wheel. The least of them, Bel, is implied to have booted the orc and goblinoid pantheons from Baator, whereas Mystra casually storms in and begins butchering baatezu by the truckloads without intervention from the Lord of the First, or any other Lord of the Nine for that matter.
Also, Geryon seems to be loyal to the Dark Lord, while in the mainstream cosmology, he was dethroned by Levistus since 2e. Levistus himself is locked in a cold war with Set and Sekolah, and actually seems to be winning.
At the very least, Mystra's actions in the mainstream cosmology should have had her fellow Greater Powers facepalming. Her actions themselves would have Baator scrambling to regain some prestige, since now every greater deity with a bone to pick can just waltz into Avernus and obliterate baatific military structure. That's not even counting the other members of the Nine; if Bel reports this to the Dark Lord, the Lord of Nessus is going to start wondering why he has no memory of the event that has his entire kingdom gossiping nervously and his chief military officer scrambling.
Mystra's actions may also end up causing a schism, with the Faerunian pantheon realizing Mystra's just pissed off an entire plane and then running damage control, possibly with some suggesting the Simbul and/or Elminster be stripped of their powers and offered to the Hells as a peace offering. Sympathetic evil or lawful deities may offer divine aid to the baatezu for the Blood War, while others take advantage to launch attacks on Mystra's clergy.
Her servitor deities are also chagrined, with Savras and Velsharoon trying to ensure their own faiths don't get caught up in the ruckus. The demipowers might take to banning the symbol of Mystra anywhere near their temples, for fear of their young faiths being targeted. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 04:23:45
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Her actions themselves would have Baator scrambling to regain some prestige, since now every greater deity with a bone to pick can just waltz into Avernus and obliterate baatific military structure. That's not even counting the other members of the Nine; if Bel reports this to the Dark Lord, the Lord of Nessus is going to start wondering why he has no memory of the event that has his entire kingdom gossiping nervously and his chief military officer scrambling.
You got it in one: "with a bone to pick". She had one. She picked it. If Mystra had been mucking around with the Hells (let's see: how about her supporting Armaros in terms of destablising one or more of the Dukes or even Asmodeus himself), Asmodeus would have been within his rights to muck around with Mystra, her servants etc. and likely would have done so.
And who is to say he didn't get his revenge in turn ... Azuth ...
All I can say is IMO Ed has provided a far greater "feel" for the Nine Hells in his Dragon articles and fiction than any other RPG writer. Ever. The stuff in "Elminster in Hell" was superb.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 04:44:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm obviously a huge fan of Spelljammer; it's where my username comes from!
I had a feeling what with the mention of giat hamster in your signature (that or you're a melonpool fan). I didn't know your name came from it though.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But my point was that on Toril, Mystra is the top dog, numero uno for magic. And while elves have come to the Realms from elsewhere and have the potential to go elsewhere, they can't do that without the use of magic. So them having their own deity of magic is immaterial within Realmspace, because Mystra controls magic in the sphere.
Oh. Yes. All magic on Toril (that uses the Weave which elven magic definitely does) does get cast through the Weave/Mystra.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The way I prefer to spin the Corellon/Mystra thing is that Mystra controls the magic in general, but Corellon controls how elves use it and how it's a part of them. It's similar to Leira and illusion magic: Leira's followers get their juice from Mystra, but they apply Leira's teachings to that juice.
I don't see Corellon controlling how elves use it or how it's a part of them (of course, he might have been involved in their creation and imbuing them with magic. I'm a bit hazy on how much the gods created certain races versus the creator races. At least in canon realms). I do see his priests teaching a particular philosophy and interpreting Corellon's holy text in certain ways to back up their philosophy. I also see there being very different interpretations, if only because the original Sundering must have caused quite a schism in elven culture between those who thought it was a great idea and those naysayers who then got to say "I told you so" after the fact (there's always naysayers) while some held onto the idea that Evermeet wasn't a mistake at all (there's always those who refuse to admit they were wrong). I expect the church of Corellon would have had very important things to say on that subject both before and after the event. And for me that's the binding authority that elven mages listen to when it comes to what should (and shouldn't) be done with magic (human mages would listen to either the Church of Azuth or the Church of Mystra). |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12077 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 15:02:32
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My personal take on "the weave" is somewhat similar to Dazzler's, but less dependent on specific items, etc.... I also present this as unreliable narrator...
Long ago, people began to learn to wield raw magic. The raw magic occasionally absorbed the souls/spirits/intellects (and I list these as 3 distinct things... some it left behind a soul-less husk, others it turned them bodily into magic as spirits, and others it separated mind from body and soul). These "bits" that were absorbed had a stabilizing influence on magic, and the gathered intellects began to develop its own sentience. Eventually, it realized it needed spellcasters to keep using it in order for it to survive, so it developed a sentience to begin providing an order to magic (or perhaps a sentience was split by Selune from an avatar of hers). This sentience needed to become a god, and somehow worked with Selune to pull energy from Shar in order to achieve this. The shadow weave was Shar's attempt to duplicate the creation of the weave by gathering souls, etc... in a similar fashion, but instead tying it directly to her own godhood. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 21:49:12
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My understanding of it all is that Mystra "governs" the Weave (as much as anyone can govern it). Other temrs could be tends to/watches over, etc. Corellon is more of a god of elven high magic, which, as the name implies, is a magic specific to elves. Elves as a whole are a magical race, and are more connected the the Weave than the average human. It's just part of their make-up (in part because they came from another world), so it would make sense that Corellon, as the father of the race, would be the god of elven magic. But he is also the god of war, art, and things elven, so he doesn't have his hands solely in magic.
Magic as a whole is such an expansive domain that it makes sense to me that you would need more than one deity. Mystra's function in the "magic sphere" is different than Corellon's, but her portfolio is more encompassing of magic, as she is seen as -the- goddess of magic. Corellon is -a- god of magic, and they operate on a different sphere, so to speak. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 00:20:02
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Well...for me there is no such thing as Chosen of Mystra...because there is no Mystra in my personal Forgotten Realms any longer. I replaced her with who it SHOULD be that rules magic in the Realms: Lurue.
Lurue the Unicorn is the PERFECT God of Magic for me in so many ways. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1570 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 01:57:11
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| Does Lurue preach about the Magic of Friendship? |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 04:28:52
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Does Lurue preach about the Magic of Friendship?
Nope...she is just like Ed originally intended her to be... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 10:24:24
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In D&D cosmology there are literally dozens of gods of magic. Whether they are gods from one pantheon or another, they have certain things in common. They all represent the way a group uses magic or the rules of magic in a setting.
Mystra has always been different from all of these in a very simple way. Mystra IS magic. All magic. From the spells cast by wizards and priests, to the swords wielded by paladins, to the innate abilities of Lloth's children, right down to the stuff that forms the fabric of the sphere a la Spelljammer and matter and space and even planar boundaries a la Planescape (giving her a direct link to the planes that no other deity has). She is the personification of the magical relationship connecting everything in FR to everything else - even the gods - which is why she has the awesome power to cut other deities access to the use of magic and the ability to allow followers magic.
As such, assuming Ao is the creator of the Realms and the gods, her essence was the very first thing he created. Her changes of identity and nature are the result of a basic law of the FR universe - she CANT truly die because she is an essential component of the plane. This does not mean her personality cannot change, or she can't be knocked senseless for a time (as she was from 4E :P ). All of the many "deaths" of FR magic deities are really just identity crises for one being, because if she ever really died so would all the other gods and mortals and the FR would unravel.
As far as Faerunian gods and who is in charge of which magic - the other gods are each in charge of their own type or group of magic users NOT the actual magic they use. Leira is the goddess of using illusion magic, not the magic itself. Corellon is the god of all the various elven methods of magic use, not the magic being used. Isis & Thoth the gods of the Mulhorandi use of magic etc. etc. etc. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 10:59:37
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Now, the weave is a construction of the god of magic (Whether mystril or an earlier incarnation, it doesn't really matter), applying an order and structure to her nature, which had previously been raw and primal... and more importantly, undeveloped - a lot like the way magic works in pretty much every other Prime Material world. The weave is a development in structuring power for increased control and influence and reach.
In my mind, the various recent attacks upon the weave by Shar and Lloth make sense only in this light. They seek to claim this development as their own, or at very least copy it. Otherwise, by their vary natures, both gods are antithetical to this. Shar (as the goddess of descent to oblivion) to any creation at all, and Lloth's (as a goddess of chaos) to creating structure.
It is important to remember that shadow magic is a form of magic, and as such still a access to Mystra's power. Both the shadow weave and demon weave were not a way of bypassing Mystra's power (despite Lloth's typically prideful lies to the contrary), but rather a way of bypassing her control over it, leaching her power away through the weave she created. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1570 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 11:47:58
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Mystryl and Mystra may have been the Weave, but Mystra 2 is a mortal who got stuck with the job over the dozens of other more qualified mages, and then had the entire pantheon turn on her the instant she botched up. This is no more obvious than in their alignments; Mystra 2's predecessors were varying shades of neutral, with the first emphasizing the chaotic, free nature of magic and the second embodying the more structured classification of magic when it became obvious that too much freedom was a liability for the continued existence of magic.
Mystra 1 also extended the hand of friendship to a traditionally darker deity like Wee Jas, the Suel deity of death and magic, and her disagreements with other deities were never personal, but rather over how they would destabilize the nature of magic. She was basically a more personable Boccob.
Mystra 2 is the opposite. I don't particularly like Mystra as a deity, but I'm firmly of the notion that she's become too involved in the Realms, even if it ended up with her being shanked. None of the original problems of the Realms were dealt with either; Mystra herself wasn't the problem, but her various servants and progeny running around sticking their noses in everything didn't help. I mean, where's Azuth and the demigods? We have so much of Mystra's Power Rangers running around that the actual ones she should be tasking with duties - her direct subordinates - are kind of just there.
The Zulkirs, the Twisted Rune, the racist elf organization with the funny name, Cadderly, the Cult of the Dragon, the Zhentarim and so on don't even get a quarter of the vitriol leveled at Mystra and her Chosen. The Circle of Eight, which is also an organization of good and neutral epic archmages, don't get this spite leveled at them by GH fans. Half of the evil organizations of the Forgotten Realms seem to be completely unaware that the Chosen are around; only Khelben has mentioned dealing with Runemaster Sapphiraktar once. The other half? The Red Wizards, without the Chosen, are presented as cunning planners and merchants, with the Thay trilogy showing off the Zulkirs in all their might, but the instant Mystra or the Chosen step in, they're reduced to drooling thugs. Shade scores victory after victory, then Elminster shows up and spanks freaking Telamont. The Zhents? Manshoon shows up in one novel to gloat and then gets vaporized.
The problem isn't Mystra as a deity, no matter how much I personally dislike her. It's that Mystra and her Merry Men show up, and suddenly every villain is feebleminded. The Elminster books show Manshoon being a joke no matter what Mr Greenwood says, and the Red Wizards are such disposable cannon fodder that Mystra freaking chides the Simbul for wiping them out like pests. Mystra can storm Baator and get no reprisal from its Lords, then can assault the Dark Lord of Nessus in his own throne room when he decides to stamp out the mortals who just barged into his backyard and started wrecking the lawn.
Mystra the Institution isn't the issue. Mystra the person, however, is everywhere. I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for saying this, but either kill Mystra permanently or don't kill her at all. This whole death is a revolving door nonsense with the Chosen showing up to show off how cool they are whenever Mystra comes back with a new coat of paint is aggravating. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 03:43:39
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Ed's main character is Elminster - always has been. Elminster's goddess is Mystra - always has been. Ed is the only FR author with a guaranteed novel contract year after year. THAT is why you see so much of Mystra's followers and their exploits. It is not because she is more active in the Realms than every or even any other god, just that she plays a part in the life of the setting's main character. Pretty simple. If you don't want to read about Mystra's chosen kicking but, then stop reading the Elminster novels, because Mystra is most likely going to stay a part of those stories. Basically, you don't read a Alex cross mystery and expect him to not solve the crime, right?
Manshoon is another of Ed's favorite characters. He has confirmed multiple times that 1) the Manshoon from the past couple novels is just one of several surviving Manshoons and 2) the this Manshoon is not the eldest, most experienced Manshoon. I personally took this to mean that he comes from a clone Manshoon created before learning some lessons in humility.
As far as you disliking the Ariel Manx identity Ao slapped onto Mystra - that's fine. You're not required to like everyone's personality or every character.
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The Gods of Magic and the Past: Confusion!
