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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 14:35:07
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| Actually Elminister is Ed's persona as its the one that most resembles him and is the most popular, but I think Ed's actual character and his favourite is Mirt. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 17:00:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Ed's main character is Elminster - always has been. Elminster's goddess is Mystra - always has been. Ed is the only FR author with a guaranteed novel contract year after year. THAT is why you see so much of Mystra's followers and their exploits. It is not because she is more active in the Realms than every or even any other god, just that she plays a part in the life of the setting's main character. Pretty simple. If you don't want to read about Mystra's chosen kicking but, then stop reading the Elminster novels, because Mystra is most likely going to stay a part of those stories. Basically, you don't read a Alex cross mystery and expect him to not solve the crime, right?
Manshoon is another of Ed's favorite characters. He has confirmed multiple times that 1) the Manshoon from the past couple novels is just one of several surviving Manshoons and 2) the this Manshoon is not the eldest, most experienced Manshoon. I personally took this to mean that he comes from a clone Manshoon created before learning some lessons in humility.
As far as you disliking the Ariel Manx identity Ao slapped onto Mystra - that's fine. You're not required to like everyone's personality or every character.
I've read that before in Ed's interviews, but as a longtime Manshoon fan, I would LOVE to finally see this master puppeteer Manshoon in a few novels. We keep being told that there is more to Manshoon than we're seeing, but all we're being shown is a bumbling villain caricature. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1570 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 19:00:39
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To be honest, actually portraying high level wizards seems to be difficult for a lot of authors. That's mostly because any player knows that high-level spellcasting is basically save-or-suck, celerity hax, gate shenanigans and so on, while authors are stuck in 'fireball, fireball, flashy evocation, another fireball'.
But ostensibly Manshoon is an intelligent person, with an Int of at least 19. There's no excuse for turning a spymaster and paranoid evil overlord into Dr Claw. |
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Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 10:39:34
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Corellon, like the elves themselves, is not native to Toril (same with the dwarves) and are effectively migrants from other worlds and other planes.
Ao's rules say that deific power from OTHER planes does not apply on Toril (and thus Corellon on Toril only has the power of his on-world worshippers), while Mystra is more strongly tied to Toril and bound up more tightly in it's fabric then Corellon, who has a lot of other stuff on his plate since technically he's bouncing around Greyhawk and who knows where else at the same time.
So the elves who ended up on Toril were already worshipping the guy, so they didn't switch over to Mystra because it wasn't really required of them. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
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Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 10:43:04
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
To be honest, actually portraying high level wizards seems to be difficult for a lot of authors. That's mostly because any player knows that high-level spellcasting is basically save-or-suck, celerity hax, gate shenanigans and so on, while authors are stuck in 'fireball, fireball, flashy evocation, another fireball'.
But ostensibly Manshoon is an intelligent person, with an Int of at least 19. There's no excuse for turning a spymaster and paranoid evil overlord into Dr Claw.
Part of it is that (and I'm not being mean here so much as stating an evident fact) that most Realms authors are just kinda okay novel writers at their best, and THEN they have to work with editorial stuff handed down from WotC at the same time which makes their job a lot harder then it already is I imagine.
Writing complex plots involving spies, lies, and politics is tricky and takes a lot of time, and I'm sure you've noticed that in general most Realms novels do not exactly lean towards the subtle or long-term planning type series. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 03:33:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Actually Elminister is Ed's persona as its the one that most resembles him and is the most popular, but I think Ed's actual character and his favourite is Mirt.
Yeah, Ed has several characters - Mirt is my personal favorite (something about an old warrior who aches and has put on the pounds and has lost a step but can still be badass when needed... sigh). But the one that has always been his primary character in novels, magazine articles, and other realms publications. He was cast as our window into that world - as 'everything we know came from the mouth of Elminster and Ed wrote down to relay' set up. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 09:59:00
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| As you dabbed into Mystra's connection and involvement in Faerun... For me Weave is diefic power of creation through which most of this world was created (including beings) that is why all gods have access to it. So Mystra is 1) heavily occupied by just maintaining it in orderly fashion 2) heavily involved in what is going on there. It make sense to me that she invested a lot of her power to her Chosen to have more direct influence on events in realms. Also it frees her hands as she doesn't have to pay attention to it so much as her representatives have their own will. Her biggest problem with other gods of magic is Shar who is too powerful to be dealt with directly (and she does not want to risk succumbing to her influence by connecting both weaves) so she uses her Chosen to find a crack in Shadow Weave (Halaster, Sammaster) - basicaly sacrificing them in this task (for greater good of course). There is of course traitorous Velsharoon looking for opportunity and other troublemakers but mostly they are not bound to destroying her, only to get more power but so does everyone of diefic powers there are (in their own way). |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 21:44:23
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Tintageer was the capital of a Gold Elven realm on the world of Faerie (Feywild). When the gold elves, and Shalario Moonflower came over, there were already Elves here, not worshipping the Seldarine.
It is my understanding that Mystra is the Weave and elves are part of the Weave. To me, that means the Seldarine are part of Mystra. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 22:15:52
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I don't think Faerie was the Feywild.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 22:22:46
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I don't think Faerie was the Feywild.
-- George Krashos
I've gone back and forth on this one. Sometimes it seems as it is, others they seem distinct. |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 00:47:00
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I don't think Faerie was the Feywild.
-- George Krashos
Good. I didn't either, but the FR Wiki says it is. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 00:51:45
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| They don't have any reference for it, though. I believe that it is more a matter of homonymy, and not that elven homeland Faerie is the same as Feywild Faerie. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 16 Nov 2015 00:51:58 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 04:16:09
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| Has anyone just asked Elaine? Tintageer was hers after all. The reason my brain has them connected is the Evermeet novel is collected as a elven history for Arilyn. In other novels she has lythari friends who live in Faerie. So I just tied them together in my head. |
Edited by - The Masked Mage on 16 Nov 2015 04:19:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 05:14:40
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I'm pretty sure the lythari didn't actually live in Faerie, it was just a place close to it.
As for the Feywild... I'd spin the Feywild as being sort of an intermediate plane, something between the Prime and Faerie itself. It's a lot closer to Faerie than it is to any place else, but it's not quite the real deal. Faerie itself is off the beaten path, when it comes to the planes -- it's not on the Great Wheel, and most of the ways into it are from the Prime (and some from the Positive Energy Plane). It's pretty much inaccessible from elsewhere.
At least, that's my take on it. I'm rather fond of Faerie, but I prefer the spin from the 3rd party book Faeries, from Bastion Press. Also, I thought the Feywild was kind of a hamfisted attempt to bolt Faerie onto the Realms, so I decided to spin things a little differently. |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2016 : 06:10:46
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First, I'd point out that 'Mystra' is not exactly a 'human' goddess. Up until 1358 DR ''she'' was often depicted as a ''bright willl o whisp'' or having an ''everchanging shape''.
As for the other gods of magic, I see a very simple solution. Mystra simply did not seek active worshipers for the first 30,000 years of history. She was content to sit back and let other gods and goddess of other races be her ''ambassadors of magic''. The average mortal would not worship ''the weave'' any more then they would worship ''evil'', but instead worship an evil deity.
So, roughly -4000 DR would be when Mystra finally actively started to attract worshipers and become and official goddess. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1570 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2016 : 08:35:16
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She also banged several humans and gave birth to humans. Elminster consistently sees her as a hot human.
I mean, Moander looks like a living pile of compost and he's a 'human' god. Myrkul's a gangrenous skeleton. Lurue is a unicorn. Bhaal is either a corpse or a huge minotaur thing. Set has the head of a snake-aardvark-jackal thing. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
958 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2016 : 10:22:46
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
She also banged several humans and gave birth to humans. Elminster consistently sees her as a hot human.
I mean, Moander looks like a living pile of compost and he's a 'human' god. Myrkul's a gangrenous skeleton. Lurue is a unicorn. Bhaal is either a corpse or a huge minotaur thing. Set has the head of a snake-aardvark-jackal thing.
Well, Moander really strangles the line of "Human" god, seeing he has or has various non-humans(saurial, elves) worship him, or aberrations serving him/being enslaved by him. But again, a lot of Moander's worshippers, are actually his slaves, via the seed of Moander.
There is a possibilty creator races worshipped Moander before humans started to do so, although that's not 100% sure by any means.
Lurue is also worshipped by elves as Yathaghera, the Winged Queen, and is also worshipped, or at least revered by sentinent animals/magical beasts. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1570 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2016 : 10:43:04
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I never got why the Realms needed three animal deities; the Aslan expy, the original Twilight Sparkle, and the goddess of animal husbandry, of all things. Also, they're all still members of the Faerunian pantheon, not the nonhuman pantheons. Lichdrow Dyrr worships Velsharoon, but that doesn't mean the lich god is a drow deity.
Although a wee bit of my bitterness comes from what the Realms did to poor Sebek. Poor guy went from being a respected deity in his own right to being Set's dumb muscle. I've long since retconned that to being some fiend masquerading as Sebek, and the real power is just only finding out. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
958 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2016 : 11:35:13
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Well, as was alluded by Dalor Darden, Ed stated in one his answers that Lurue was originally the God of Magic in the Realms, and the most powerfull entity in them.
TSR decided that it's just strange that a non-human, even non-humanoid deity has such importance, and Ed created Mystra to take on part of Lurue's quailities when writting "Down-to-earth Divinity".
Although that makes the similarities to Twilight Sparkle even greater XD
And about Moander and Lurue being members of the "human" pantheon. Tiamat and Bahamut became gods worshipped by humans, and joined the Faerunian pantheon. Shialla was originally worshipped by Korred, before she had her first human worshippers.
Humanity, being the dominant culture and species, just absorbs the gods of other cultures and species. It happened many times in reall life. Sumerians allready started to absord deities of their neighbours, or vassal kindgoms into their own pantheon, and most famously did so Romans.
If I remember right, the Realms Sebek was explained as son of Set, and a Faerunian archfey in an article by Brian R. James in the Dungeon magazine, I think the Chessenta one.
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Edited by - Baltas on 14 Jan 2016 11:43:43 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1570 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2016 : 13:04:50
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Technically, Big T and her bro are part of the core pantheon as well.
Makes me wonder what happened to all the other dragon gods in 4e. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
958 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2016 : 16:04:53
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With Io/Asgoroth he got split into two halves, which became Tiamat and Bahamut in the Core Setting/Points of Light/Nethir Vale. One could say Io got split in half and absorbed into Tiamat and Bahamut. Or that he died, and his divine power and portfolio got split between the siblings, or all of his children.
For the rest, I don't know. It's possible they died, or have been recategorized into Primordials, as the 4e Campaign setting had Asgoroth described as one of the primordials, and Brian R. James I think at least suggested Tiamat was also originally a primordial in the Realms. |
Edited by - Baltas on 15 Jan 2016 14:46:36 |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2016 : 21:58:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Okay fellow scribes I have been trying to wrap my head around this for some time but I can't seem to make the pieces fit. I will try my best to explain everything.
It's all the usual mess with having pantheons; trying to make it make sense doesn't actually work.
Things work much more coherently if you have the Realms off in its own FR cosmology (like 3rd's Great Tree) with one god/des of magic for the entire set of planes/continents/races. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2481 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2016 : 22:42:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
As far as I know, elves worship Corellon as their primary deity of magic. However, I agree with Wooly in that Mystra is far more than a human deity. Not only she is linked to the creation myth, but she also is the Weave, and IIRC the elves are deeply linked to it.
If we assume that Mystril did oversee magic itself while Corellon is about Elven magical traditions (especially those exclusively Elven - bladesong and High Magic), Azuth would be more fitting as a counterpart.
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12077 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2016 : 15:12:02
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I never got why the Realms needed three animal deities; the Aslan expy, the original Twilight Sparkle, and the goddess of animal husbandry, of all things. Also, they're all still members of the Faerunian pantheon, not the nonhuman pantheons. Lichdrow Dyrr worships Velsharoon, but that doesn't mean the lich god is a drow deity.
Although a wee bit of my bitterness comes from what the Realms did to poor Sebek. Poor guy went from being a respected deity in his own right to being Set's dumb muscle. I've long since retconned that to being some fiend masquerading as Sebek, and the real power is just only finding out.
On the Sebek thing, I could buy that. Maybe he was a powerful Sarrukh in the East who created some crocodilian people. Later, he instilled the ability to shapechange and thereby came the first "werecrocodiles". Later, maybe the race was cursed/blessed, and their shapechanging became a form of lycanthropy that they would use to infect other races and thereby change them into their own kind. Maybe pureblood werecrocodiles can still shapechange, but people equate them all as the same beings.
This might also explain why Sebek joined up with Set to attack the Khaastas. If he's a Sarrukh, he may hate the Khaastas. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2016 : 17:46:54
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| Mystra allows corellon to govern elven magic. This allows elves to use high magic, which is powerful enough to break mystra's ban on such powerful spells. It's a good workaround. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2016 : 17:53:39
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
As far as I know, elves worship Corellon as their primary deity of magic. However, I agree with Wooly in that Mystra is far more than a human deity. Not only she is linked to the creation myth, but she also is the Weave, and IIRC the elves are deeply linked to it.
If we assume that Mystril did oversee magic itself while Corellon is about Elven magical traditions (especially those exclusively Elven - bladesong and High Magic), Azuth would be more fitting as a counterpart.
True, that would be a fitting analogy. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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The Gods of Magic and the Past: Confusion!
