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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Sep 2015 : 12:50:54
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| Just because you don't focus on it doesn't mean that having that portfolio doesn't gain you divine energies when someone commits acts related to the portfolio. It just means that's not in your agenda to focus on that thing. However, the general idea here is that what if by having certain portfolios, it changes the divine being possibly against their own will. You gotta admit, Kelemvor for example doesn't appear to be the same personality as a god. It might also be that HOW you obtain your portfolios may define how much control you have over how they affect you. For instance, finder didn't WANT to become a god, much less become Moander.... that might play into how his ascension was affected. We don't know the godly mechanics.... in fact, I doubt many of the gods even know the godly mechanics..... Ao knows the godly mechanics. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2015 : 15:26:09
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just because you don't focus on it doesn't mean that having that portfolio doesn't gain you divine energies when someone commits acts related to the portfolio. It just means that's not in your agenda to focus on that thing. However, the general idea here is that what if by having certain portfolios, it changes the divine being possibly against their own will. You gotta admit, Kelemvor for example doesn't appear to be the same personality as a god. It might also be that HOW you obtain your portfolios may define how much control you have over how they affect you. For instance, finder didn't WANT to become a god, much less become Moander.... that might play into how his ascension was affected. We don't know the godly mechanics.... in fact, I doubt many of the gods even know the godly mechanics..... Ao knows the godly mechanics.
My original statement was that a deity that didn't want a portfolio could simply not focus on it. I've not said anything about them not getting power from it or being unchanged by it.
I was challenged on it not making sense for them to not focus on a portfolio, and the one example I gave was questioned -- so I gave many more examples of deities that ignore portfolios they hold. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2015 : 22:28:55
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| All those deities portfolios are part of who they are as has been firmly shown. It is not a debate you are just wrong. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 00:01:02
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
All those deities portfolios are part of who they are as has been firmly shown. It is not a debate you are just wrong.
Really? Who last called on the deity of rebellion? Has Mielikki ever been invoked as the deity of dryads? Why is Gond the one that gets all the credit for technology when Oghma is the deity of invention?
These examples firmly show that deities sometimes ignore some of their portfolios, in favor of other portfolios. It would be wrong to say otherwise. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Sep 2015 03:40:28 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 04:00:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
All those deities portfolios are part of who they are as has been firmly shown. It is not a debate you are just wrong.
Really? Who last called on the deity of rebellion?
Rebels, probably. Since we don't see many rebels in first person, we don't hear much of it. That doesn't mean it's an irrelevant portfolio.
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Has Mielikki ever been invoked as the deity of dryads?
Yes, by dryads. Since we don't see dryads in first person, guess what?
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Why is Gond the one that gets all the credit for technology when Oghma is the deity of invention?
Because Gond is the god of Artifice, building things, constructing - not specifically the "coming up with theoretical ideas and plans" god (which is more Oghma). There are theoreticians and planners, and then there are builders and artists. The latter actually interpret and bring ideas into reality, often with unique takes on the ideas, plans, songs, etc.
quote:
These examples firmly show that deities sometimes ignore some of their portfolios, in favor of other portfolios. It would be wrong to say otherwise.
Deities don't ignore their portfolios. Rather than firmly showing anything, you're just demonstrating that you don't quite understand the subtle differences involved.
Even Finder, he doesn't have the portfolio of rot/decay. He rejected it entirely, so he's not ignoring anything.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 25 Sep 2015 04:02:14 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 04:56:22
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Fine, show me Talos looking after the rebellion portfolio. Show me Mielikki being the goddess of dryads. Show me how Oghma is controlling all the inventing that Gond and his followers are doing. Show me Shar's great interest in dungeons.
Divine portfolios are like positions in a corporation -- some are very important and must be filled, some are of lesser importance, and some are entirely unnecessary or are so unimportant that only unpaid interns do them.
One of Amaunator's portfolios was bureaucracy. No one picked that up when he died/became Lathander/whatever.
We know divine portfolios can be left unclaimed. I've listed several portfolios whose holders are not documented as doing anything with those portfolios. And we know deities can change their portfolios into something more suitable.... Given all of that, especially the lack of evidence that some portfolios are used, why is there so much resistance to the idea that Deity A might focus more on Portfolios 1, 2, and 3, and not really do anything with 4? |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 05:55:30
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| I think deities likely do focus more on those portfolios they hold that give them the most divine energy, but I doubt any of them ignore their 'lesser' portfolios...they just (as Wooly says) focus more on some and less on others. But Eltheron is also correct, I think, in that just because we don't see Mielikki functioning as a goddess of dryads or Talos as god of rebellion doesn't mean they ignore them. They just haven't been focused on in the lore. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 15:04:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Show me how Oghma is controlling all the inventing that Gond and his followers are doing
IIRC it's written somewhere how Gond and Oghma often argue and how Gond is frustrated by Oghma's withholding of ideas for inventions Gond would like to spread among mortals |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 16:13:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Fine, show me Talos looking after the rebellion portfolio. Show me Mielikki being the goddess of dryads. Show me how Oghma is controlling all the inventing that Gond and his followers are doing. Show me Shar's great interest in dungeons.
Divine portfolios are like positions in a corporation -- some are very important and must be filled, some are of lesser importance, and some are entirely unnecessary or are so unimportant that only unpaid interns do them.
One of Amaunator's portfolios was bureaucracy. No one picked that up when he died/became Lathander/whatever.
We know divine portfolios can be left unclaimed. I've listed several portfolios whose holders are not documented as doing anything with those portfolios. And we know deities can change their portfolios into something more suitable.... Given all of that, especially the lack of evidence that some portfolios are used, why is there so much resistance to the idea that Deity A might focus more on Portfolios 1, 2, and 3, and not really do anything with 4?
I don't have a problem with the idea that a deity pushes the agenda for some portfolios more than others. However, and I think this may be where the confusion is coming in, I don't think a deity can lose a portfolio via neglecting of pushing it. I think another deity has to take it on OR the deity has to die and come back without the portfolio. I also think that whatever act occurs to "transfer" godly portfolios to another deity has a strong factor in HOW those portfolios transfer, and we don't know what that is, because we simply don't truthfully understand what happens when a god "dies". Do I have any rules to back that up? No, absolutely not, and I'd like to hear others takes on that, because some of what you've brought up Wooly is interesting.
Now, on specifics... Talos and rebellion.... I'm betting he was called upon during the Thayan uprising (but that being several hundred years ago.....). He does appear to be a poor choice for rebellion, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if someone else took it from him (such as Garagos or Mask)
On Mielikki and dryads... honestly, there I'm going to say I'm betting she does serve as their goddess and we just don't see it much because we don't hear a lot about dryads.... of course, there is also a daughter of Titania (Verenestra) that's supposed to be the goddess of dryads. So, EITHER Mielikki is Verenestra... which I doubt since Rillifane Rallathil lists both as allies in demihuman deities... or they're BOTH patron deities of Dryads (along with Rillifane I'd bet).
On the bureaucracy and Amaunator.... you know who I'd like to see pick that up? Deneir. I'd love to see Deneir become one of Mystra's "gods of magic" over symbol magic, but also his being a god of scribes just fits also being a god of bureaucracy.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 18:37:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Fine, show me Talos looking after the rebellion portfolio. Show me Mielikki being the goddess of dryads. Show me how Oghma is controlling all the inventing that Gond and his followers are doing. Show me Shar's great interest in dungeons.
If someone insists they only see black and white, it makes no sense to waste time trying to explain to them how color works.
However, I repeat the most important point I made: just because a deity seems to be neglecting a portfolio doesn't mean they are. Invariably, novels paint deities as if they have primary agendas, because it's simpler for the narrative and for readers. You simply aren't considering what the entire worshiping body of followers is doing - you're only considering the narrow perspective of one or a handful of that deity's protagonists.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 19:21:16
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd love to see Deneir become one of Mystra's "gods of magic" over symbol magic, but also his being a god of scribes just fits also being a god of bureaucracy.
This idea appeals to me.
Gets Deneir out from under Oghma's shadow, too.
This sort of transition (or revelation, if you think it ought to have happened already without anybody knowing--perhaps while Mystra was down for the count and Deneir had a century to take up where Mystra was lacking) is similar to what we were presented with in Elminster's Guide to the Realms.
I wonder which other deities went for a "soft takeover" of Mystra's wide-ranging portfolio during her absence? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 22:39:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Fine, show me Talos looking after the rebellion portfolio. Show me Mielikki being the goddess of dryads. Show me how Oghma is controlling all the inventing that Gond and his followers are doing. Show me Shar's great interest in dungeons.
If someone insists they only see black and white, it makes no sense to waste time trying to explain to them how color works.
Except that's not what you're doing. You're insisting that there is color in pictures that are black and white.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
However, I repeat the most important point I made: just because a deity seems to be neglecting a portfolio doesn't mean they are. Invariably, novels paint deities as if they have primary agendas, because it's simpler for the narrative and for readers. You simply aren't considering what the entire worshiping body of followers is doing - you're only considering the narrow perspective of one or a handful of that deity's protagonists.
I'm not just looking at novels -- I'm looking at sourcebooks, web articles, magazine articles, and novels. And in none of the several examples that I have listed, is there any evidence whatsoever that the deity isn't just sitting on and otherwise ignoring a portfolio.
You want to convince me otherwise? Stop with the condescending "you're not seeing the whole picture" comments, especially since I'm looking at all of the same info you are. Give me actual example. Show me somewhere in print that it proves I am wrong. As has been said in other online locales -- "Pics or it didn't happen." |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2015 : 00:46:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Fine, show me Talos looking after the rebellion portfolio. Show me Mielikki being the goddess of dryads. Show me how Oghma is controlling all the inventing that Gond and his followers are doing. Show me Shar's great interest in dungeons.
If someone insists they only see black and white, it makes no sense to waste time trying to explain to them how color works.
Except that's not what you're doing. You're insisting that there is color in pictures that are black and white.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
However, I repeat the most important point I made: just because a deity seems to be neglecting a portfolio doesn't mean they are. Invariably, novels paint deities as if they have primary agendas, because it's simpler for the narrative and for readers. You simply aren't considering what the entire worshiping body of followers is doing - you're only considering the narrow perspective of one or a handful of that deity's protagonists.
I'm not just looking at novels -- I'm looking at sourcebooks, web articles, magazine articles, and novels. And in none of the several examples that I have listed, is there any evidence whatsoever that the deity isn't just sitting on and otherwise ignoring a portfolio.
You want to convince me otherwise? Stop with the condescending "you're not seeing the whole picture" comments, especially since I'm looking at all of the same info you are. Give me actual example. Show me somewhere in print that it proves I am wrong. As has been said in other online locales -- "Pics or it didn't happen."
Wooly. Please. Last time I checked, this was a pretendy fun time game of imagination. Many descriptions of gods, NPCs, even cities are not going to be lifelike-complete.
Proof that a deity cares about a particular thing, aka portfolio, is simply in the fact that it's LISTED on their description. If you require an example of every single portfolio being actively demonstrated in some sourcebook or novel, then you are being extremely pedantic.
This is probably the dumbest thing I have ever seen on these boards. It's in their description - if novels or sourcebooks happen to focus on one particular side of a deity or whatever, that's expected - it's not some clever sign, pregnant with meaning, suggesting that other aspects don't matter.
It's akin to suggesting that a parent only loves one of their children and ignores all the others because you happened to attend one child's graduation but none of the others so you didn't see them fawning over the other kids.
Good bloody grief. 
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2015 : 02:21:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd love to see Deneir become one of Mystra's "gods of magic" over symbol magic, but also his being a god of scribes just fits also being a god of bureaucracy.
This idea appeals to me.
Gets Deneir out from under Oghma's shadow, too.
This sort of transition (or revelation, if you think it ought to have happened already without anybody knowing--perhaps while Mystra was down for the count and Deneir had a century to take up where Mystra was lacking) is similar to what we were presented with in Elminster's Guide to the Realms.
I wonder which other deities went for a "soft takeover" of Mystra's wide-ranging portfolio during her absence?
Yeah, I'd personally like to see a whole team of these lesser deities who are serving multiple masters. For instance, I'd like to see the red knight as a goddess of magical strategy and spell dueling. I'd like to see Milil reporting to Mystra for control of song-based magics. I'm on the fence about Auppenser reporting to her.... thinking more of an ally. I'd like to see Deneir reporting to Mystra as a god of truename and symbol based magics (including the symbol based magics of summoning extraplanar entities AND binding vestiges). Note, on the binding vestiges piece, I'd also like to have Velsharoon be taking a stab at that as well as a form of spirit magic, but that's personally because I like the alternate rules for vestiges/spirits in "secrets of pact magic" that doesn't make all spirits as trapped in some odd space. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2015 : 02:32:10
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Sleyvas,
Looking at your second to last post again, I begin to wonder if there isn't a lesser aspect of Deneir that is worshipped, or at least prayed to, by those who work within a bureaucracy.
Sort of like how there is Tyr and Iltyr.
I think it would be interesting if a powerful cleric of Deneir came along to champion this aspect, who joined forces with a sect that were once Mystrans, but years ago turned to Deneir after Mystra fell, especially if those worshippers were big on symbols and similar.
This way Deneir's attainment of Bureaucracy and Symbols could happen through the efforts of mortal worshippers. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 26 Sep 2015 02:34:51 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2015 : 05:22:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Wooly. Please. Last time I checked, this was a pretendy fun time game of imagination. Many descriptions of gods, NPCs, even cities are not going to be lifelike-complete.
Proof that a deity cares about a particular thing, aka portfolio, is simply in the fact that it's LISTED on their description. If you require an example of every single portfolio being actively demonstrated in some sourcebook or novel, then you are being extremely pedantic.
This is probably the dumbest thing I have ever seen on these boards. It's in their description - if novels or sourcebooks happen to focus on one particular side of a deity or whatever, that's expected - it's not some clever sign, pregnant with meaning, suggesting that other aspects don't matter.
It's akin to suggesting that a parent only loves one of their children and ignores all the others because you happened to attend one child's graduation but none of the others so you didn't see them fawning over the other kids.
Good bloody grief.
Just because they hold something doesn't mean they have an interest in it. I can solder electronics well enough to hold a job doing so -- but just because I have that skill doesn't mean I ever had any interest in it.
We don't know how all of these deities got their portfolios. Mielikki may have absorbed a lesser deity of the woods, for example, and gotten the dryads portfolio along with it. Talos may have slain a deity for his destruction portfolio, and took the rebellion one from that same deity.
So no, simply holding a portfolio is not any kind of proof of interest in it.
And I'm getting really tired of the insulting nature of your posts. You don't agree with me, that's fine -- don't be insulting about it, though. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2015 : 14:32:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Wooly. Please. Last time I checked, this was a pretendy fun time game of imagination. Many descriptions of gods, NPCs, even cities are not going to be lifelike-complete.
Proof that a deity cares about a particular thing, aka portfolio, is simply in the fact that it's LISTED on their description. If you require an example of every single portfolio being actively demonstrated in some sourcebook or novel, then you are being extremely pedantic.
This is probably the dumbest thing I have ever seen on these boards. It's in their description - if novels or sourcebooks happen to focus on one particular side of a deity or whatever, that's expected - it's not some clever sign, pregnant with meaning, suggesting that other aspects don't matter.
It's akin to suggesting that a parent only loves one of their children and ignores all the others because you happened to attend one child's graduation but none of the others so you didn't see them fawning over the other kids.
Good bloody grief.
Just because they hold something doesn't mean they have an interest in it. I can solder electronics well enough to hold a job doing so -- but just because I have that skill doesn't mean I ever had any interest in it.
We don't know how all of these deities got their portfolios. Mielikki may have absorbed a lesser deity of the woods, for example, and gotten the dryads portfolio along with it. Talos may have slain a deity for his destruction portfolio, and took the rebellion one from that same deity.
So no, simply holding a portfolio is not any kind of proof of interest in it.
And I'm getting really tired of the insulting nature of your posts. You don't agree with me, that's fine -- don't be insulting about it, though.
I have to disagree with you wooly, just because we don't see them act out all of their duties it doesn't mean that they shirk their responsibilities. In general, no god wants to lose any part of a portfolio if it means losing power. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2015 : 03:38:15
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But if no one is singing the praises of dungeons, does Shar lose power by ignoring the portfolio?
And Oghma holds the portfolio of invention -- but everyone thinks of Gond as the inventor. So Oghma is definitely not getting that worship. It doesn't seem to bother him, since he's not paying any attention to it. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2015 : 04:41:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But if no one is singing the praises of dungeons, does Shar lose power by ignoring the portfolio?
And Oghma holds the portfolio of invention -- but everyone thinks of Gond as the inventor. So Oghma is definitely not getting that worship. It doesn't seem to bother him, since he's not paying any attention to it.
And this may be an instance of Gond eventually stealing this portfolio from Oghma, but through "peaceful" means. This could also be a sign of the weakness of Oghma as well, because he spread himself kind of thin in many directions, and there are deities who more directly fill his roles that could rise up and take his portfolios. For instance, Milil as god of bards, Deneir as a knowledge/history deity, and Gond as lord or invention. Not that I want to see Oghma disappear mind you, but he could be threatened by the success of his underlings.... and those underlings COULD find other masters who would gladly support him (Deneir and Milil could easily report to Mystra... and Milil would also fit well under Sune). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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What if Leira WANTED to lose the portfolio of lies
