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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Sep 2015 : 17:44:24
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As many of you know, initially, I hadn't really cared years ago about the loss of Leira over Cyric, but in the last fifteen years... I've really warmed up to the goddess of illusions. I've also liked the various discussions we've had about how beliefs in certain gods by mortals change them.
This makes me think that certain portfolios MAY in fact be very powerful for a god to have, BUT they may come with consequences that the god/goddess may not actually enjoy. For instance, a god of lies... everyone lies.... this could be a source of a LOT of power. However, what if the consequence of being the god of lies is that one starts to lose one's hold on reality. It should be noted that many of Leira's followers are a bit on the insane side as well. So, what if Leira didn't know what she was getting into when she took on the portfolio of lies.... or what if the portfolio of lies was forced upon her? The below is just a working hypothesis that I'd gladly like to hear other people's reworking of to make for a better story.
In the early years following the start of the calendar of Dalereckoning, a fey deity of illusions named Leira (full name something like Leirathalar) was making inroads to gather human worshippers within the Chondathan / Talfirian pantheon. Perhaps she was even involved as a goddess of deceiving mind magics with the Jhaamdathi. She ends up getting involved with a god of thievery in said same pantheon (said deity being Mask), and the two develop a kind of "love working with you" relationship.
So, there's a deity named Valigan Thirdborn, who is a deity of Chaos and of various other portfolios including lies and intrigue. Leira and Mask decide to work a plot against Valigan Thirdborn to "steal" his portfolios (thereby proving Mask to be the greatest thief ever and Leira the master of deception). Whatever they do (could make a good story), it actually ends up with the death of Valigan. Leira ends up with the portolios of Chaos and lies (and maybe other stuff). Mask ends up with the portfolio of intrigue. However, Leira begins to realize that having the portfolio of lies comes with some drastic personality changing issues. So, she hatches a plot wherein she lays the groundwork to get three relatively newly risen deities to steal the tablets of fate.... by providing them lies about what kind of power the tablets have.... and she possibly does this with the full knowledge of Ao, who possibly sees this as her fulfilling her own duties as a goddess of lies.... with the idea that she will fake her own death in order to force the lies portfolio onto an unsuspecting dupe (through an illusion which tranforms herself into the Cyrinishad)... all with the aid of her love, Mask...
Decent story? Any improvements to be made?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2015 : 18:58:45
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Meh... I don't see it. A deity not wanting a portfolio could simply not focus on that portfolio.
Also, I'm reluctant to include Ao in any of this. There's a lot that can be done without including him.
Here's my idea, mostly developed in the last couple hours, since I saw that earlier post of yours.
Perhaps Savras foresaw and warned Leira that one day she'd be slain by another. So she began laying the groundwork for her own return.
The key to this would be a book - perhaps it's called The Book of Lies (or maybe The Libram of Truth, to have more fun with it). That may not be the actual title of the book; it'd be fitting if the book periodically changed appearance and content, or if different people perceived it differently. However, the book has certain characteristics (namely, the effects) that have allowed clever sages to track it over the centuries.
The book is infused with a good amount of Leira's power, and as a consequence, has the ability to convince readers (or listeners) that what it contains is the truth.
Sound familiar? 
Years pass -- centuries, even -- and Cyric and Mask come along and slay Leira.
Some time later, Cyric learns of The Book of Lies. He finds it and uses it as the basis for the Cyrinishad -- he basically forces it to lock into one format, that of the ultimate "book of Cyric." (All the sacrifices and all that were part of locking the book in this one format)
Then he read it, with the known consequences.
However, the unknown consequence was that the power of the current deity of Deception, reading a book that contained part of the old deity of Deception, broke this lock on the book, allowing it to (eventually) revert to its pre-Cyric format -- and it also freed a sliver of Leira's essence from both sources. (Like calls to like)
That sliver came to rest in one of Leira's most powerful remaining worshipers, the Mistmaster, making him something akin to -- but not quite -- an avatar. Using what power Leira could spare and his own network of agents, the Mistmaster started rumors and whispers that became some of the most powerful lies of the Realms -- the heresies that certain deities were actually other deities and always had been, or that other deities were merely exarchs who served greater deities.
Though the affected church hierarchies struggled against these heresies, Leira's influence allowed them to take root. As the heresies spread, the power of those collective lies flowed back to Leira, causing her to re-emerge as a deity.
One of the first acts of the reborn Leira was to proclaim that her own death had been nothing but a clever deception. As other fallen deities have returned, Leira's newly revitalized church was there to proclaim that those deities, too, had not been slain, only absent or quiescent for a time. All of these lies, linked to such a fundamental thing as religion, have served to strengthen the reborn Leira, and to even offer a degree of protection against the Dark Sun's inevitable vengeance.
--
All this aside, I'm not a fan of Leira, and I prefer her to remain dead. But I can still run with a fun concept and see where it goes...
For me, it's essential to try to stick with Realmslore as much as I can -- but the end of 3E screwed up the divine situation, quite horribly. I honestly think the "bring them all back!" approach is over-correcting, since now we'll have issues like reconciling Myrkul (who didn't want to return to godhood) being a deity whose portfolios are held by another.
But... Deciding that there is a link between Cyrinishad and Leira is brilliant, and gives us a lot of room to play -- even, in my mind, enough to try to reconcile some of the post-3E divine lore with the previous divine lore. That's why I was so enthusiastic about Sleyvas's post -- I may not like Leira, but this is a way to fix some bigger messes.  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Sep 2015 20:20:38 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2015 : 20:18:28
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At least in canon, it takes more than that for a deity to return from the dead. If they are full on dead, there has to be something else, in addition to belief, that brings them back.
If simple belief was all it took, then just about any slain deity would have popped right back up almost immediately, and some others, like Ibrandul, that have never been declared dead in-setting (as in, to the worshipers) would still be around.
That's why I took the path I did, above. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2015 : 20:42:07
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| What if the original god of Lies Sleyvas proposed didn't get taken by surprise? What if he put a vestige of his divine essence into the Book of Lies? What if the True Life of Cyric was a test run by Mask to see if he'd successfully removed the curse of madness from the portfolio of lies, and it failed, but somehow brought back Leira as a vestige, perhaps in a manner similar to what Wooly proposed? I've got an idea brewing there, and I'm trying to tie Mask's death in Paul Kemp's novels into it, but I can't hash it out quite right. Thought I'd throw those kernels out there and see if anyone took off with it. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2015 : 20:55:04
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More than for 99% of the population of a continent to believe they have returned, personally I would have considered the convincing of millions of people far more difficult than anything else. Especially when those people are simple folk with little understanding of divine affairs, and there is fairly concrete evidence to show that the god did in fact perish.
Take Ammaunator's return for instance. To simply turn up and say, "actually Lathander is dead, Ammaunator is the new god of the sun, he's just in a phase." Your average commoner is gonna tell you to s*d off because you are obviously a loon, and more than a few fanatics are going to string you up for saying such a thing.
However, if you conjure up a second sun above a city (although the city did change name in a spectacular lore gaff), and that sun lasts for 100 years, then gradually people begin to entertain the idea that perhaps Lathander is gone and Ammaunator is actually the god of the sun. Rumours spread, things happen and hey presto you have a new god. All it took was an epic miracle, a hundred years, sounds very easy. |
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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 20 Sep 2015 20:59:45 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2015 : 21:04:05
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
This makes me think that certain portfolios MAY in fact be very powerful for a god to have, BUT they may come with consequences that the god/goddess may not actually enjoy. For instance, a god of lies... everyone lies.... this could be a source of a LOT of power. However, what if the consequence of being the god of lies is that one starts to lose one's hold on reality.
I really like this idea. In addition to portfolios being things that deities claim/covet, now theyre hot potatoes that hand deities more than they bargained for.
Much more interesting this way, and it helps to drive the Realms forward, which fits the idea that the Realms are a place of constant change.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Whatever they do (could make a good story), it actually ends up with the death of Valigan.
A good story indeed. Id like to read more of it if anyone wants to tell it.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, she hatches a plot wherein she lays the groundwork to get three relatively newly risen deities to steal the tablets of fate....
Is she only looking to get rid of the portfolio of lies? Or does she have her sights set on something more?
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 20 Sep 2015 21:05:29 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2015 : 21:19:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Meh... I don't see it. A deity not wanting a portfolio could simply not focus on that portfolio.
Also, I'm reluctant to include Ao in any of this. There's a lot that can be done without including him.
Here's my idea, mostly developed in the last couple hours, since I saw that earlier post of yours.
Perhaps Savras foresaw and warned Leira that one day she'd be slain by another. So she began laying the groundwork for her own return.
The key to this would be a book - perhaps it's called The Book of Lies (or maybe The Libram of Truth, to have more fun with it). That may not be the actual title of the book; it'd be fitting if the book periodically changed appearance and content, or if different people perceived it differently. However, the book has certain characteristics (namely, the effects) that have allowed clever sages to track it over the centuries.
The book is infused with a good amount of Leira's power, and as a consequence, has the ability to convince readers (or listeners) that what it contains is the truth.
Sound familiar?
Years pass -- centuries, even -- and Cyric and Mask come along and slay Leira.
Some time later, Cyric learns of The Book of Lies. He finds it and uses it as the basis for the Cyrinishad -- he basically forces it to lock into one format, that of the ultimate "book of Cyric." (All the sacrifices and all that were part of locking the book in this one format)
Then he read it, with the known consequences.
However, the unknown consequence was that the power of the current deity of Deception, reading a book that contained part of the old deity of Deception, broke this lock on the book, allowing it to (eventually) revert to its pre-Cyric format -- and it also freed a sliver of Leira's essence from both sources. (Like calls to like)
That sliver came to rest in one of Leira's most powerful remaining worshipers, the Mistmaster, making him something akin to -- but not quite -- an avatar. Using what power Leira could spare and his own network of agents, the Mistmaster started rumors and whispers that became some of the most powerful lies of the Realms -- the heresies that certain deities were actually other deities and always had been, or that other deities were merely exarchs who served greater deities.
Though the affected church hierarchies struggled against these heresies, Leira's influence allowed them to take root. As the heresies spread, the power of those collective lies flowed back to Leira, causing her to re-emerge as a deity.
One of the first acts of the reborn Leira was to proclaim that her own death had been nothing but a clever deception. As other fallen deities have returned, Leira's newly revitalized church was there to proclaim that those deities, too, had not been slain, only absent or quiescent for a time. All of these lies, linked to such a fundamental thing as religion, have served to strengthen the reborn Leira, and to even offer a degree of protection against the Dark Sun's inevitable vengeance.
--
All this aside, I'm not a fan of Leira, and I prefer her to remain dead. But I can still run with a fun concept and see where it goes...
For me, it's essential to try to stick with Realmslore as much as I can -- but the end of 3E screwed up the divine situation, quite horribly. I honestly think the "bring them all back!" approach is over-correcting, since now we'll have issues like reconciling Myrkul (who didn't want to return to godhood) being a deity whose portfolios are held by another.
But... Deciding that there is a link between Cyrinishad and Leira is brilliant, and gives us a lot of room to play -- even, in my mind, enough to try to reconcile some of the post-3E divine lore with the previous divine lore. That's why I was so enthusiastic about Sleyvas's post -- I may not like Leira, but this is a way to fix some bigger messes.
I could buy this, and like I said, I'm not married to any particular concept. The one thing I'm SLOWLY becoming married to is that I really (not sure why) like the idea that Mask and Leira are involved (the level of the involvement should not necessarily be defined.... some think its actual love... others think both are using the other). So, when Cyric "slew" Leira with Godsbane (aka Mask), maybe have Mask do something to contain a portion of her essence which he then feeds into her ancient text (kind of like how he hid Kelemvor). Maybe he just feels like he needs his ally back, or maybe its because Mask knows what the book is and he wants it to backfire on Cyric. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2015 : 21:34:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
What if the original god of Lies Sleyvas proposed didn't get taken by surprise? What if he put a vestige of his divine essence into the Book of Lies? What if the True Life of Cyric was a test run by Mask to see if he'd successfully removed the curse of madness from the portfolio of lies, and it failed, but somehow brought back Leira as a vestige, perhaps in a manner similar to what Wooly proposed? I've got an idea brewing there, and I'm trying to tie Mask's death in Paul Kemp's novels into it, but I can't hash it out quite right. Thought I'd throw those kernels out there and see if anyone took off with it.
One of the other twists I was thinking with that original god of lies (whom I chose as Valigan Thirdborn just because the only thing we know is he's at least a god of Chaos opposing Tyr).
Rather than have Mask and Leira plot to take the portfolios from him, perhaps he himself in some kind of attempted plot tried to kill Leira, but it backfired and she "slew" him and thereby received the portfolio (willingly) before realizing over time that that wasn't a good idea. I'm thinking along the lines that deities don't necessarily know the implications of a lot of these godly matters until they've been in them long enough to notice what happens through empirical evidence. She couldn't just give up the portfolio though, as she had to make the world believe someone else had it now. As to "how" she slew Valigan Thirdborn, that in and of itself could be an interesting story, and might even involve the original creation of an artifact book involving lies.
Also, bear in mind, Mask is back too in 5e, at least according to the novels. So, the whole Leira and Mask in cahoots thing can be played out in present day with the two religions aiding each other. Someone a few months back mentioned wanting some religious assassins like the faceless from Westeros in Faerun (i.e. assassins who change their appearance and personality to work their way into organizations)... and truthfully, I think that's a great idea for a group of assassins serving both Mask and Leira (or just Leira). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2015 : 21:46:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
This makes me think that certain portfolios MAY in fact be very powerful for a god to have, BUT they may come with consequences that the god/goddess may not actually enjoy. For instance, a god of lies... everyone lies.... this could be a source of a LOT of power. However, what if the consequence of being the god of lies is that one starts to lose one's hold on reality.
I really like this idea. In addition to portfolios being things that deities claim/covet, now theyre hot potatoes that hand deities more than they bargained for.
Much more interesting this way, and it helps to drive the Realms forward, which fits the idea that the Realms are a place of constant change.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Whatever they do (could make a good story), it actually ends up with the death of Valigan.
A good story indeed. Id like to read more of it if anyone wants to tell it.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, she hatches a plot wherein she lays the groundwork to get three relatively newly risen deities to steal the tablets of fate....
Is she only looking to get rid of the portfolio of lies? Or does she have her sights set on something more?
Thank you, and especially thank you for that last question.... yes, that bears some thought as to what all she could gain from getting the Dark Three to steal the tablets of fate. You know what.... I was just talking about her wanting to setup an assassin group like the faceless. Maybe she was also in cahoots with Mask to get the murder portfolio freed up for him by killing Bhaal... and maybe she wanted corruption from Myrkul. Hell, maybe she also had Jergal involved and was planning on returning death, decay, hatred, strife, and tyranny to him (i.e. maybe Jergal was the source telling Myrkul and Bane about the tablets of fate). This failed of course, so we can show that yes, they had big plans... only some of it worked. There are probably some other spins we can throw in there. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2015 : 22:02:21
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I also wonder about deities wining a portfolio, only to realize they're not powerful enough to handle it. Not sure what Leira's divine rank was pre-ToT, but what if this whole business ended with her getting Mask to set Cyric free from his divine prison, but in the process Mask robs Cyric of Lies and hands it off to a newly empowered (and much stronger, from a divine ranking point of view) Leira.
Or maybe Mask pulls an Indiana Jones and hands off the worst of his and Leira's divine baggage to The Mad God, so he doesn't realize he's lost Lies, the idea being to have Cyric self-destruct from what's "in his pocket," and complete the cycle of deception and renewal mirrored in the ToT/Spellplague/Sundering process. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 20 Sep 2015 22:03:31 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2015 : 22:05:26
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Maybe she was also in cahoots with Mask to get the murder portfolio freed up for him by killing Bhaal... and maybe she wanted corruption from Myrkul. Hell, maybe she also had Jergal involved and was planning on returning death, decay, hatred, strife, and tyranny to him (i.e. maybe Jergal was the source telling Myrkul and Bane about the tablets of fate).
Oh, I like that. Heck, anything Jergal catches my interest.
What could Jergal promise her (and Mask) in return? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 00:15:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Maybe she was also in cahoots with Mask to get the murder portfolio freed up for him by killing Bhaal... and maybe she wanted corruption from Myrkul. Hell, maybe she also had Jergal involved and was planning on returning death, decay, hatred, strife, and tyranny to him (i.e. maybe Jergal was the source telling Myrkul and Bane about the tablets of fate).
Oh, I like that. Heck, anything Jergal catches my interest.
What could Jergal promise her (and Mask) in return?
I don't know. We are led to believe that Jergal was playing some kind of long game in giving up his godhood to the dark three in the first place (at the end it says "And Jergal merely smiled, for he had been delivered"). So, maybe he was setting them up to be Patsy's from the get go, just as Cyric was being setup. Ultimately though, this long game didn't work as planned. This involvement might be getting a little convoluted though... so if we do make it a tripartite thing, we need to nail this down thoroughly.
Has anyone made any really good theories out there as to why Jergal gave up his portfolios? You know what.... it occurs to me that my idea that accepting certain portfolios might have repercussions COULD actually play into this as well. Maybe there's some faults of being the god of the dead.... or maybe the god of dusk...? After all, we're led to believe that Myrkul didn't want to go back to being a god and wanted to stay in the crown of horns... maybe its because he got some portfolio that Jergal was willing to give up all his other portfolios in order to get rid of that one. Could it be that being the "god of dusk" gave Shar or Amaunator some control over him? Maybe being the god of "parasites" or "exhaustion" or "old age" had issues that he hadn't foreseen when he acquired them?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 01:13:29
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Has anyone made any really good theories out there as to why Jergal gave up his portfolios?
I think George Krashos covered this topic over at the Realms Secretariat.
That website is still down (is it migrating or?), and I don't have access to the articles outside of it--never saved them.
So mentioning the article does us no good, but I thought I'd put a note of it here for when the Secretariat comes back (fingers crossed). |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 01:31:11
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My story on how I see the origins of Jergal didn't go into how he relinquished his portfolios to the Three. My thoughts on that topic are as scattered as the lore other than to think that there must have been a "recipe" for godhood that they were following. In my book you can't become a god just because you want to be one. So whose recipe were they following?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 02:43:29
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There are a lot of great ideas getting thrown around in this scroll. I really dig the idea that the Cyrinishad was Leira, it's a great parallel with Godsbane being Mask.... and Cyric reading it being the event that enables her eventual return is  .
Sleyvas original post with the "love working with you" comment about Mask & Leira, reminded me that Cyric's parents remain unnamed. Is it too over-the-top to think that Cyric's parents were Avatars of Mask & Leira? Considering that Cyric's father murdered his mother for having the child, it creates a pretty twisted parallel when Cyric uses Godsbane(Mask) to murder Leira... |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 06:23:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Meh... I don't see it. A deity not wanting a portfolio could simply not focus on that portfolio.
I could not disagree with this more. Portfolios are essential parts of the being of Gods. If a God gains or loses a portfolio they change in a fundamental way. "Not focusing" on it makes no sense.
If Leira got rid of "lies" she would be entirely different and potentially in ways that benefited her. A deity of lies would feel compelled to lie and mislead, potentially in ways that were not conducive to their goals. We know this from in novels when Mask damaged his own goals and himself because he was compelled to work intrigue even to his own detriment. |
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 21 Sep 2015 06:26:10 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 10:58:42
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Meh... I don't see it. A deity not wanting a portfolio could simply not focus on that portfolio.
I could not disagree with this more. Portfolios are essential parts of the being of Gods. If a God gains or loses a portfolio they change in a fundamental way. "Not focusing" on it makes no sense.
It's canon for deities to do this. Finder took the portfolio of rot from Moander, but he made it something else -- he isn't the god of rot. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2511 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 14:09:27
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I could not disagree with this more. Portfolios are essential parts of the being of Gods. If a God gains or loses a portfolio they change in a fundamental way.
Well, yes...
quote:
"Not focusing" on it makes no sense.
But... people flaunt or develop traits they see as advantageous and downplay or counter traits that give them problems... all the time.
Why gods wouldn't do the same?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's canon for deities to do this. Finder took the portfolio of rot from Moander, but he made it something else -- he isn't the god of rot.
Tempus also actively keeps his portfolio trimmed the way he likes it: let Garagos keep the BURN!MAIM!KILL! side and gave to Red Knight the strategy side.
And it looks like Mystra circumvented the few limitations of her divine nature by sponsoring Azuth.
If she can't go directly against development of magic even if it becomes a threat to the Weave (like Mystril didn't prevent development and "field test" of Karsus Avatar) or otherwise annoys her, she needs someone to do it for her...
Of course, usually such matters can be resolved via mortal champions acting on their own free will for their mortal reasons (like Elminster slaying Seldinor Stormcloak), but sometimes not.
Azuth's nature is different, so he's free to drop in and perform the spanking as necessary. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 21 Sep 2015 14:20:26 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 16:24:25
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quote:
Sleyvas original post with the "love working with you" comment about Mask & Leira, reminded me that Cyric's parents remain unnamed. Is it too over-the-top to think that Cyric's parents were Avatars of Mask & Leira? Considering that Cyric's father murdered his mother for having the child, it creates a pretty twisted parallel when Cyric uses Godsbane(Mask) to murder Leira...
 Wow, I read this and my jaw dropped open. The best comment in this scroll so far! It actually makes some sense as I always wondered why Ao would raise a mere mortal to not only godhood...but to the full power of THREE dead gods. I've always argued that Midnight wasn't truly mortal (she was what I call an embedded avatar). But Cyric never made any sense...until now. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 16:33:51
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@sleyvas: I've always liked your take on Leira and she's always been a favorite deity of mine (though I can't effectively play a priest of hers...ALWAYS lying just makes gaming hard...very hard...as not even your companions trust you  ).
Some time ago I believe you proposed something similar to this idea (that Leira tricked Cyric into all this with the Cyrinishad). I always liked it and still do. She pulled off the greatest deception ever (faking her death) and did it with style.
Getting back to Cyrinishad's comment. I just thought of one hiccup to that theory: If Cyric was essentially the child of two gods this (IMHO anyway) make him 1) a semi-divine being from birth and 2) he should have been able to handle the portfolios he was given much better.
Of course, this thread is dealing heavily with the consequences of certain portfolios so maybe just about any deity with those particular areas of influence (in tandem with each other) causes a great deal of strain, even for a deity. Thus Jergal needed to be 'delivered' from them. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 18:15:39
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My contact with the Realms is really just only through novels and some PC games, but I've also been entertaining ideas that Leira faked her own death just for kicks.
In my own little fanfiction version of the Realms, based on the "logic" that the fundamentals of magic is deception, illusion and slight of hand, Leira is the real goddess of magic, she just lets Mystra have fun with it. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2015 : 02:08:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Meh... I don't see it. A deity not wanting a portfolio could simply not focus on that portfolio.
I could not disagree with this more. Portfolios are essential parts of the being of Gods. If a God gains or loses a portfolio they change in a fundamental way. "Not focusing" on it makes no sense.
It's canon for deities to do this. Finder took the portfolio of rot from Moander, but he made it something else -- he isn't the god of rot.
On this, I refer back to the idea that gods don't truly understand "god physics" of what it means to "take" a portfolio by killing another god. Sometimes possibly their essential nature prevents them from acquiring a portfolio.... and this also brings up some things like Moander having rot and Myrkul having decay.... what exactly is the difference between those two? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2015 : 02:13:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
There are a lot of great ideas getting thrown around in this scroll. I really dig the idea that the Cyrinishad was Leira, it's a great parallel with Godsbane being Mask.... and Cyric reading it being the event that enables her eventual return is .
Sleyvas original post with the "love working with you" comment about Mask & Leira, reminded me that Cyric's parents remain unnamed. Is it too over-the-top to think that Cyric's parents were Avatars of Mask & Leira? Considering that Cyric's father murdered his mother for having the child, it creates a pretty twisted parallel when Cyric uses Godsbane(Mask) to murder Leira...
HMMMMMMMMMMMMM...... delicious...... where could we take this? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2015 : 02:24:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
@sleyvas: I've always liked your take on Leira and she's always been a favorite deity of mine (though I can't effectively play a priest of hers...ALWAYS lying just makes gaming hard...very hard...as not even your companions trust you ).
Some time ago I believe you proposed something similar to this idea (that Leira tricked Cyric into all this with the Cyrinishad). I always liked it and still do. She pulled off the greatest deception ever (faking her death) and did it with style.
Getting back to Cyrinishad's comment. I just thought of one hiccup to that theory: If Cyric was essentially the child of two gods this (IMHO anyway) make him 1) a semi-divine being from birth and 2) he should have been able to handle the portfolios he was given much better.
Of course, this thread is dealing heavily with the consequences of certain portfolios so maybe just about any deity with those particular areas of influence (in tandem with each other) causes a great deal of strain, even for a deity. Thus Jergal needed to be 'delivered' from them.
Hmmm, I like the general premise though that perhaps Cyric was born of those deities involvement. For instance, maybe Cyric was born to a high priestess of Leira (who never told him the truth of herself) who wormed her way into the temple of the night masks in Westgate using her womanly wiles. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2015 : 23:07:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Meh... I don't see it. A deity not wanting a portfolio could simply not focus on that portfolio.
I could not disagree with this more. Portfolios are essential parts of the being of Gods. If a God gains or loses a portfolio they change in a fundamental way. "Not focusing" on it makes no sense.
It's canon for deities to do this. Finder took the portfolio of rot from Moander, but he made it something else -- he isn't the god of rot.
No that is not the case. He took the portfolio and changed/adapted it.
His portfolio is: the cycle of life (rot to rebirth), transformation of art, and saurials.
"Finder has a dual aspect as a divine being. Rot and corruption
(a remainder of Moander's portfolio) represent Finder's excessive pride, arrogance, and vanity. Rebirth and renewal from rot and corruption symbolize Finder's transformation into her, sevior and deity" (Powers and Pantheons p. 14)
Therefore, the portfolios he possesses are still essential to his being. Things must rot/decay and then be remade in cycles. Rot/decay are not inherently evil, like Moander, and Finder still seeks to break things down as being his divine provenance. Just like Kelemvor has a very different take on being a "Death" god than Myrkul or Jergal did. Death is still core to the essence of Kelemvor as a deity and he's not just his mortal self overseeing death he has become a death deity that is fundamentally different and unlike a mortal in consciousness, form or action... they do not perceive the universe the same as mortals and are incapable of seeing things from our perspective. Which in a way blinds them to things we may think are obvious. |
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 22 Sep 2015 23:10:37 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2015 : 23:08:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
My contact with the Realms is really just only through novels and some PC games, but I've also been entertaining ideas that Leira faked her own death just for kicks.
That would be an interesting idea for your own world. But it is stated that she is "really" dead by sources that are not "unreliable narrators". Gods sleep lightly, though, wouldn't it be just as interesting if she laid the groundwork for her own resurrection? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2015 : 00:26:34
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As I recall, Steven Schend has plans for Leira: I'll see if I can find his musings.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2015 : 00:30:48
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
As I recall, Steven Schend has plans for Leira: I'll see if I can find his musings.
-- George Krashos
Don't tease me George.... I would love to see Mr. Schend's musings. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2015 : 01:07:34
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's canon for deities to do this. Finder took the portfolio of rot from Moander, but he made it something else -- he isn't the god of rot.
No that is not the case. He took the portfolio and changed/adapted it.
His portfolio is: the cycle of life (rot to rebirth), transformation of art, and saurials.
"Finder has a dual aspect as a divine being. Rot and corruption
(a remainder of Moander's portfolio) represent Finder's excessive pride, arrogance, and vanity. Rebirth and renewal from rot and corruption symbolize Finder's transformation into her, sevior and deity" (Powers and Pantheons p. 14)
But it's not his focus: he focuses on the good that can come from rot, not on rot itself. He's about renewal, not corruption. So he is not focused on, and is not, a deity of rot.
And he was just an example, anyway -- the first one I could think of.
When was the last time you heard of anyone paying attention to hospitality as a divine portfolio? Lliira holds that one, but she focuses on joy and dance -- not hospitality.
Oghma is the god of invention -- but everyone thinks of Gond as the inventor. Oghma clearly isn't doing much with the portfolio; his focus is on knowledge, which is what he's known for.
Kossuth covers purification thru fire... But his focus is on fire itself, and he doesn't pay attention to anything else.
Mielikki is the goddess of dryads. But she's the goddess of the forest and of rangers, and doesn't seem to do anything special for dryads.
Who pays attention to Selūne as anything other than the goddess of the moon, and occasionally, non-evil lycanthropes? She also covers navigation, wanderers, and seekers.
Shar doesn't give an osquip's behind about dungeons, from anything we've seen -- but she holds that portfolio.
When was the last time Talos got behind a good rebellion? He's the deity of rebellion, after all.
Tymora is known as the goddess of good luck and of adventurers, and people think of her when taking chances... But she doesn't specifically cover gambling. She does cover skill, which seems an odd fit for someone that focuses on luck -- but maybe that's why she doesn't do anything with that portfolio.
So, as I said earlier, it is canon for deities to hold portfolios that they don't focus on -- all the ones I just referenced were from the listings of portfolios for each deity in Faiths & Avatars.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Sep 2015 01:09:43 |
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What if Leira WANTED to lose the portfolio of lies
