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Prince Forge of Avalon
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Mar 2004 : 04:17:42
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And I say again WOTC's loss OUR(collective) gain!
I don't miss any of the whiner's complainer's etc, sometimes I wonder whatever happened to common courtesy.
And Kuje31 you might want to consider keeping whats said here, HERE(IMO)(kind of like Las Vegas).It is truly disheartening to read some of the trash(IMO) thats gets sprouted at WOTC about people I've come to respect and enjoy interacting with.
PFoA
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2004 : 04:36:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Prince Forge of Avalon
I don't miss any of the whiner's complainer's etc, sometimes I wonder whatever happened to common courtesy.
What in the &%$#@@ is that suppossed to mean?!!
Sorry, couldn't reist that playful jab. 
Seriously, although it will sound like a joke, common courtesy died some time ago. I believe it was last sighted sometime shortly before the release of 3.5 edition. |
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Prince Forge of Avalon
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2004 : 05:26:32
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Unfortunate but TRUE Sirius!
PFoA |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2004 : 12:43:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Prince Forge of Avalon
And I say again WOTC's loss OUR(collective) gain!
I don't miss any of the whiner's complainer's etc, sometimes I wonder whatever happened to common courtesy.
And Kuje31 you might want to consider keeping whats said here, HERE(IMO)(kind of like Las Vegas).It is truly disheartening to read some of the trash(IMO) thats gets sprouted at WOTC about people I've come to respect and enjoy interacting with.
I'd have to agree. Yesterday I stopped by the WotC board, curious to see what the response was to Ed's exported Realmslore. I really wish I hadn't. Kuje's post spawned a flurry of comments about EG's "moral code" and personal preferences. There was much mention of "cheese," and other, less flattering comments. One of the offenders took umbrage to the Faraer's suggestion that some of his comments might be considered libel, and stated that "not much is libel." Unfortunately, he's right. I posted a brief legal definition of libel, and listed some of the obnoxious things that were said on the thread that were NOT illegal. Offering no judgements, mind you, just a ironic commentary on what's "okay to do." As far as I can tell, that went right over everyone's head.
::sigh:: You'd think I'd know better by now. Irony is even more difficult to portray online than sarcasm. At least we have winking smilies to indicate that a comment is tongue in cheek. ::ponders:: Hmmm... What sort of smiley might signal irony? One that changed color when you scroll over it? |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2004 : 13:12:05
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| What I really want is a [ sarcasm ] [/ sarcasm ] tag. With modifiers like "style="tongueincheek"". |
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Alexander Heppe
Seeker
Germany
62 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2004 : 13:18:56
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Well I just posted a reply on the Wizards boards, where someone asked specifically about sources of where to find info on something. Cause I think that info can also be found in a novel I replied
quote:
Despite that, the town is featured in the Icewind-Dale trilogy, I believe, which is sort of like a series of letters that, put together, form three long texts which were then printed and sold to tell a story by some author called RAS, I believe...
There it is: I neither wrote the "n"-word nor named the author...hopefully the WizO will not delete this thread.
Let´s just see what happens... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2004 : 14:15:42
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I think the difference here is that Candlekeep was formed as a community. The WotC boards aren't treated that way.
Just goes to show how clear, precise, and unobtrusive rules can help a group. It's the essence of good governing. Here most of us agree on what we want, so we can get along on that aspect. There, the rules are not stated precisely, and the moderators are far from unobtrusive.
People should not post in fear of being deleted or even banned based on arbitrary decisions.  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2004 : 16:17:46
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
I'd have to agree. Yesterday I stopped by the WotC board, curious to see what the response was to Ed's exported Realmslore... I really wish I hadn't. Kuje's post spawned a flurry of comments about EG's "moral code" and personal preferences.
Egads. Thanks for the warning. That's two people on here letting me know that it just isn't worth it going to that board even for Richard Baker's thread.
quote:
I posted a brief legal definition of libel, and listed some of the obnoxious things that were said on the thread that were NOT illegal. Offering no judgements, mind you, just a ironic commentary on what's "okay to do." As far as I can tell, that went right over everyone's head.
Well, one of the things I like about you is that you try to communicate to people in ways like you described above. Alas, without even going to the thread, I fear you are right, it went over everyone's head.
quote:
::sigh:: You'd think I'd know better by now. Irony is even more difficult to portray online than sarcasm. At least we have winking smilies to indicate that a comment is tongue in cheek. ::ponders:: Hmmm... What sort of smiley might signal irony? One that changed color when you scroll over it?
One that was flashing with a Big Message: "The following is an Ironic comment. If you believe that means it relates in some way, shape, or form to the thing you use to get the wrinkles out of your shirt, please close this thread, turn off your computer, and pick up the nearest dictionary reading it from cover to cover. Repeat this process as much as possible until you realize where you went wrong." |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2004 : 16:19:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
What I really want is a [ sarcasm ] [/ sarcasm ] tag. With modifiers like "style="tongueincheek"".
In another thread, Alaundo said he'd try to work on getting us some additional smilies. I hope we at least get a rolling eyes one, that has always been a fave of mine. Gee, wonder why?  |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2004 : 16:21:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Heppe
Let´s just see what happens...
It's been nice knowing you Alexander. When the WOTC hit squad comes for you, can I have your FR books? Or has someone in your family already made a claim for them? |
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Alexander Heppe
Seeker
Germany
62 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2004 : 17:09:44
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I am sorry to disappoint you Sirius, I suppose my wife will have you back in Azkaban before you even know what was happening...
She´ll defenitely try to keep her hands on my books, because I have to keep telling her that investing in my hobby means investing in our future, because of the amounts that collectors are willing to pay - otherwise I haven´t found a way yet to have her stop bickering ´bout my hobby -sigh- |
Edited by - Alexander Heppe on 18 Mar 2004 17:11:25 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2004 : 17:18:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Heppe
She´ll defenitely try to keep her hands on my books, because I have to keep telling her that investing in my hobby means investing in our future, because of the amounts that collectors are willing to pay - otherwise I haven´t found a way yet to have her stop bickering ´bout my hobby -sigh-
With some stuff you aren't off. I had one game store owner give away a dinged up, but otherwise complete edition of H1: Bloodstone Pass. That fetched a nice price on the auction I sold it at later on. |
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Darth KTrava
Learned Scribe
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2004 : 19:49:00
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And every time you try to ask any sort of technical question regarding the novels, a certain wizo will only post the "static excuse" form that she always does when anything regarding novels comes up. Makes ya wonder if they've become Nazis or something.... (that was a joke) They probably make at least a decent percentage of their sales off novels in relation to gaming materials. And it's been word of mouth as to how I picked up some of the "lesser" novels...
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Evil will be dealt with swiftly as it is my duty to remove such evil from my presence.
-Rozhena, Cleric/Divine Champion of Torm |
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Simon Says
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2004 : 23:11:12
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Personally, I'm actually wondering why the "What's next?" topic I threw up here yesterday was yanked.
Anyone?
Accident? Or was someone offended by the vague suggestion that Richard Lee Byers's "Dissolution" was kickbutt?
Enquiring minds want to know.
:)
Simon Sayeth |
And the trees were all kept equal - by hatchet, axe, and saw. --Peart |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 03:58:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Simon Says
Accident? Or was someone offended by the vague suggestion that Richard Lee Byers's "Dissolution" was kickbutt?
You actually mentioned a novel. <whistle> Boy, you're brave.
Cue the Born to be Wild music. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 06:23:27
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I, personally, am starting to get tired of some of the stuff that goes on over there... I'm another person who has had posts deleted because I dared mention a specific novel.
My solution thus far has been to PM anyone who asks novel related questions, thus avoiding the heavy hand of the WizOs... But I hardly think this an ideal solution.
I can see some of the reasoning for shutting down the Novels forum, though I'm not convinced that it was necessarily the best maneuver.
What I don't understand is situations like the one Kuje31 referred to. "Hey, has this been in a novel?" BOOM! Closed thread, deleted posts...
Sometimes their actions seem rather arbitrary... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 08:50:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Simon Says
Personally, I'm actually wondering why the "What's next?" topic I threw up here yesterday was yanked.
Anyone?
Accident? Or was someone offended by the vague suggestion that Richard Lee Byers's "Dissolution" was kickbutt?
Enquiring minds want to know.
:)
Simon Sayeth
Well met, Simon Says
I was concerned over your intentions, please try rewording in future Also, if you wish to discuss a novel, please check the Scrying Room to see if such a scroll exists.....I unearthed this one if you wish to commence your discussion.
Thank ye |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 13:54:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My solution thus far has been to PM anyone who asks novel related questions, thus avoiding the heavy hand of the WizOs... But I hardly think this an ideal solution.
No, but it's a very smart move and one that I used in the past on the WOTC for another topic that couldn't be discussed in public. |
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PyrateJenni
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 15:35:23
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quote:
Oh Cyric, I remember that name.
Oh, gawd, what a bloody twit. I lurked for a while when he was there. I was amazed none of the mods banned him during that time. There's arguing, and there's venting/ranting, and then there's having "TROLL!!!!" blazing across your forehead in flashing red letters. |
"The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense." -- Tom Clancy_ |
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PyrateJenni
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 15:46:03
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quote:
One of the offenders took umbrage to the Faraer's suggestion that some of his comments might be considered libel, and stated that "not much is libel." Unfortunately, he's right.
Considering how often "You better be careful, that's libel!" is tossed around on the 'Net as a method to try and shut people up, I don't think that's unfortunate at all.
I've recently seen a very pathetic attempt to invoke libel because someone blew the whistle on two women who scammed people out of thousands of dollars.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/turimel/48890.html#cutid1
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"The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense." -- Tom Clancy_ |
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Simon Says
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 23:40:17
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Alaundo spaketh:
quote:
Well met, Simon Says
I was concerned over your intentions, please try rewording in future Also, if you wish to discuss a novel, please check the Scrying Room to see if such a scroll exists.....I unearthed this one if you wish to commence your discussion.
Thank ye
Hm ... my intentions? I was not aware I'd been branded a troublemaker, Ancient One.
Was my last critique ("The Sapphire Crescent") seen as insolent? Unfair?
Curious. I thought it went rather well. More than likely, you are confusing me with someone else.
My intention was to see if there was a novel that the populace wanted discussed. I threw up "Dissolution" as a possible starter, because it seemed as though a great many had read it. Though if it has already been discussed at length, and the Candlekeep folks still want to go over its merits, I think it would be a smashing idea to conduct the review in the already-titled "Dissolution" thread.
My primary goal was to see what the current "buzz" was.
Is my attempt to begin a dialogue about novels in the "Novels" 'board seen as potentially derisive?
This is Candlekeep, after all. Not the WotC boards.
;)
Simon Sings! |
And the trees were all kept equal - by hatchet, axe, and saw. --Peart |
Edited by - Alaundo on 20 Mar 2004 11:23:07 |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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Magic Matt
Seeker
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2004 : 21:06:33
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This is a much more pleasant place to post than the WOTC site, I can not tell you how much more comfortable Candlekeep feels. NOVEL! NOVEL! NOVEL! Hehe….Hehe.
That other site freaked me out to be honest [and few things freak me]. I got a 'warning' for saying that the old art was better than the new ‘cartoony junk’ in the product I had just bought $$$, and wished they would go back to some of their old artist. [I was being insensitive, and the word libel was mentioned in the warning]?
I would think that customer response would be something they would be interested in?
NOVEL! NOVEL! NOVEL! Hehe….Hehe.
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"You had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war."
-Winston Churchill- (to Neville Chamberlain)
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
-William Shakespeare, "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1
He who will not reason is a bigot. He who cannot is a fool. and he who dares not is a slave.
-Sir William Drummond- |
Edited by - Magic Matt on 23 Mar 2004 21:48:31 |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2004 : 22:23:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Magic Matt
That other site freaked me out to be honest [and few things freak me]. I got a 'warning' for saying that the old art was better than the new ‘cartoony junk’ in the product I had just bought $$$, and wished they would go back to some of their old artist. [I was being insensitive, and the word libel was mentioned in the warning]?
Sheesh. Did this warning come from a fellow poster, or a WizO?
Either way, I wouldn't worry about it. Libel is a false statement. It must target a specific, recognizable person. It must be a statement of fact that can be proved or disproved, which rules out opinions, insults, and hyperboly. It must be injurious to reputation -- bruised feelings don't count. It must be made "with fault," which means that the person making the comment did so knowing that it would be injurious. In short, libel isn't easy to commit. You really have to work at it.  |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 23 Mar 2004 22:52:58 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2004 : 22:38:31
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Matt
That other site freaked me out to be honest [and few things freak me]. I got a 'warning' for saying that the old art was better than the new ‘cartoony junk’ in the product I had just bought $$$, and wished they would go back to some of their old artist. [I was being insensitive, and the word libel was mentioned in the warning]?
Sheesh. Did this warning come from a fellow poster, or a WizO? I'm hoping that company employees aren't throwing around veiled threats of litigation, but frankly, I'm not optimistic.
The Wizo probably PM'd the poster before or after she posted this.
WizO_BigSister posted on 03-22-04 at 04:41 AM
"Second warning guys ... please don't flame the artists. Constructive criticism is O.K. Abusing artists and attributing motives such as "money saving" are not ok. In case you think this doesn't really matter think back to the reputation these boards had this time last year, and think back to what happened to the novels forums!
Some relevent exceprts from the "Guidelines for Posting thread" ...
Remember the Golden Rules!
"If in doubt, leave it out!"
“It is ok to disagree with what someone has written; it is not ok to attack the person who wrote it. If you can't tell the difference then maybe you shouldn't make the post!"
______________________
Commenting, reviewing and/or critcising someone’s work
* Don't just give a strong of negative comments, say what you "liked" as well
* If you simply post “I hate everything insert-authors-name writes” or “I hate insert posters name ideas” without following this with examples and reasons then it causes problems. Firstly it is not a good way to get people to accept your opinion as valid. More importantly this kind of post acts as a magnet for flaming
* Offer polite suggestions, bearing in mind it is completely optional for an author to act on them. These suggestions aren't necessarily "this is how I would have done it better". They may actually be "this is what I personally enjoy more". As the majority of our posters are not champion players, professional authors or rule writers this second kind of suggestion should be much more common
* OFFER your suggestions and opinions; don't ram them down anyone's throat
* Always be aware that this is just your opinion and not the "absolute truth"
* The whole underlying foundation of what you write is the thought "I want to help this person" NOT the thoughts "I want to insult this person", "I want to look better than this person", "I want to take out my bad mood on this person", "I resent this person for making money at writing when I can't" etc. etc.
_______________________
Assigning Motives to WotC Staff, Writers and Designers
I have a request for you all. When you talk about the actions of the various designers, editors, executives, authors and other assorted WotC staff please don't assign motives as outright statements. You do not know why they do things, you can only guess. Saying "I think that maybe they published this because of x, y or z" or "it looks as if this may have happened because the designers wanted to yis ok. However it is not to say "The executors made these changes because of x"... especially if what you are claiming to be fact is highly uncomplimentary.
Yes, stating such an opinion as fact does not necessarily break the CoC, but depending on the nature of the opinion it may not only be against the rules it can even be libel! We know that making such "this is true" statements about employees of WotC often offends, irritates or down right infuriates them ... and we all want to see these people giving their input to the board. Let's not drive anyone away." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2004 : 23:27:25
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| They've totally flipped thier lids over there.Listen to me,it's like their across the river or something. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Magic Matt
Seeker
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 02:48:51
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Matt
That other site freaked me out to be honest [and few things freak me]. I got a 'warning' for saying that the old art was better than the new ‘cartoony junk’ in the product I had just bought $$$, and wished they would go back to some of their old artist. [I was being insensitive, and the word libel was mentioned in the warning]?
Sheesh. Did this warning come from a fellow poster, or a WizO?
Either way, I wouldn't worry about it. Libel is a false statement. It must target a specific, recognizable person. It must be a statement of fact that can be proved or disproved, which rules out opinions, insults, and hyperboly. It must be injurious to reputation -- bruised feelings don't count. It must be made "with fault," which means that the person making the comment did so knowing that it would be injurious. In short, libel isn't easy to commit. You really have to work at it.
As a former ‘Stare Peace Officer’ and ‘Officer of the Court’ (Arizona), I’m reasonably familiar with the law, even civil law, so was not worried so much as shocked!
But fortunately there is Candlekeep, and I shall not go back to that dark and foreboding place.
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"You had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war."
-Winston Churchill- (to Neville Chamberlain)
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
-William Shakespeare, "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1
He who will not reason is a bigot. He who cannot is a fool. and he who dares not is a slave.
-Sir William Drummond- |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 05:31:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Magic Matt
That other site freaked me out to be honest [and few things freak me]. I got a 'warning' for saying that the old art was better than the new ‘cartoony junk’ in the product I had just bought $$$, and wished they would go back to some of their old artist. [I was being insensitive, and the word libel was mentioned in the warning]?
You have got to be kidding me? Do you have your original post to quote? I would love to see that and know what a moderator was deciding was libel worthy. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 05:37:11
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
The Wizo probably PM'd the poster before or after she posted this.
WizO_BigSister posted on 03-22-04 at 04:41 AM
"Second warning guys ... please don't flame the artists. Constructive criticism is O.K. Abusing artists and attributing motives such as "money saving" are not ok. In case you think this doesn't really matter think back to the reputation these boards had this time last year, and think back to what happened to the novels forums!
Ah Big Sister, there's a name that rings a painful bell. Based on my last experiences with her, she is a real [the remaining portion of this post has been deleted on the decision of Sirius Black's computer which likes people to think my user is a nice person who sings in fields of flowers and plays with puppies all day long rather than the over-caffeinated, type A personality he appears to be to me] |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 05:45:17
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Ah Big Sister, there's a name that rings a painful bell. Based on my last experiences with her, she is a real [the remaining portion of this post has been deleted on the decision of Sirius Black's computer which likes people to think my user is a nice person who sings in fields of flowers and plays with puppies all day long rather than the over-caffeinated, type A personality he appears to be to me]
I can't post my feelings about this, since they would get me censored. :) But yes after my problems with her for discussing "novels." I tend to agree..... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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WOTC's New Novel Rules
