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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Mar 2004 : 19:43:36
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I'm just looking for opinions here I guess and maybe to rant a little. Since the Wizo's won't even clarify thier own rules to make them clearer.
This is what I posted over on the WOTC boards after the Wizo gave me a warning:
I have a question about the new novel rules, since it is assumed we all understand them but it looks as if they need some clarification.
According to the rules that Bigsister posted on the FR boards, we are
allowed to post novel info when it is appropriate to the post.
"Posts are free to reference novels when it is appropriate to the topic being discussed. For example, if you are interested in The Origins of the Moonblades, of course you will be able to mention "Evermeet: Island of the Elves." Or, when discussing the nature of Cormyr as a campaign setting, of course you can refer to specifics within Sembia novels as material that provides further insight. The same goes for iconic characters who appear both in novels and supplements."
So then this poster came on earlier this week and posted this.
Master Sylvius posted:
"Tethyr reclamation wars Anybody knows if there are any novels on the rise of Zaranda Star and King HaedrakIII to the throne of Tethyr. I only know about one novel talking about Zaranda Star but it takes place before de reclemation wars...
If they're aren't any and some good writers are reading this well...Jump on the occasion to write about this fascinating piece of Tethyrs' recent history!"
I replied there was a novel that details the rise of Zaranda as Queen as well as it's in Lands of Intrigue and that novel is also referenced in the box set.
I got a PM from the Wizo saying would you please stop posting novel
information, or I am going to have to take action against you for doing so.
So my question is, which is right, can we post titles of novels and
information from novels or not, when they are appropiate to the post? If we are not allowed to even post the titles of novels and say yes there is such a novel, that is referenced in the old material how are we ever going to discuss material since almost every FR sourcebook and box set goes hand in hand with many of the novels.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2004 : 20:05:39
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Hmmmm, what a dilema!
My solution.... Forget WotC and stay at Candlekeep!
Seriously though, if it's against the rules to help by pointing out novels, they need to rethink their rules. It's just plain unfair, and has no point to it that I can see. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2004 : 21:51:38
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Well met
I believe there are indeed heavy restrictions on such discussions over at the abode of the Wizards who dwell on the Coast, regarding certain novel tomes. We do however love to discuss novels herein at Candlekeep.
Mind thy tongue (or quill!) though, we dont want anything untoward which may be offensive  |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Kameron M. Franklin
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2004 : 23:14:27
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My non-official interp:
The original post seems to be in conflict with the new rules. It is not asking in reference to gaming material, but is suggesting possible future novel content in the guise of a question of what novels are already out on the subject. By participating in the illegal discussion, you put yourself in violation. |
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2004 : 03:18:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Kameron M. Franklin
My non-official interp:
The original post seems to be in conflict with the new rules. It is not asking in reference to gaming material, but is suggesting possible future novel content in the guise of a question of what novels are already out on the subject. By participating in the illegal discussion, you put yourself in violation.
Kuje31,
a non-offical interp Part II. Short Answer: I agree with Kameron Franklin.
The original poster was violating the stated rules. However, in the midst of his post, he did seem to ask a question (minus a question mark) and you made a valid reply to this post within the new novel rules posted. However, because you replied to someone else's out of line post, BAM, the gloved hand comes down like a spike.
I commend you for this rant as if this is you ranting, you are very polite and calm. Plus, bonus points for being articulate.
I admire you for having the patience to put up with the WIZO board. I liked Richard Baker's thread, but after the novel boards fiasco, well...let's just say the WOTC board was removed from my Christmas Card list.
Do you have a Wizo that should have handled the situation differently? Absolutely in my opinion. However, I don't know what's going on behind the scenes. He/she may be getting more tension over any posts that violate this new rule and thus he/she is being very sensitive.
I'd head for greener pastures. But, that's me. Hang in there. I hope you know I enjoyed your posts when I did visit the WOTC board and will stand by you know even as you cause trouble, ruin your good name, go the inner depths of some foul dimension, etc., etc.  |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2004 : 04:44:35
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I've been banned from those boards some time ago. Oddly enough, I cannot for the life of me tell why -- my last post was a reply in a "FR MMORPG?" thread, in which I said:
quote:
Search function, hiho, here we go.
(I gave the thread starter a link to search results on "MMORPG.")
WizO_BigSister edited my post to:
quote:
Search function, here we go.
After that, I was banned. *blinks* Has "hiho" become a rude word while I wasn't looking? |
Edited by - Winterfox on 15 Mar 2004 04:45:32 |
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Prince Forge of Avalon
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2004 : 05:20:53
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I know Im a little late on this subject, I was away from the WOTC boards for about a year, My question is why the sudden(for me) "no talking" about novels?
Im curious because of the fact that FR more than ANY campaign is so intertwined with the novels it produces!
Im afraid to even mention characters due to what Ive heard about banning etc going on ay WOTC.
Though I must admit Im starting to find Candlekeep more to my liking. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2004 : 06:33:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Prince Forge of Avalon
I know Im a little late on this subject, I was away from the WOTC boards for about a year, My question is why the sudden(for me) "no talking" about novels?
Im curious because of the fact that FR more than ANY campaign is so intertwined with the novels it produces!
This hits the nail right on the head. You can't discuss FR without discussing the novels, it's just to hard! As I said on my post, FR material falls back on the novels to much to not be able to discuss them.
WOTC should at least clarify thier rules on what can or can't be discussed concerning the novels, since it's at the whim of the Wizo.
For another example: The old Shores of Dusk novel (which never even got printed!) we can't discuss it or even send a link to the part where the author told the mailing list what happened to it, that is kept here at Candlekeep. Why? It's a valid question on why it never hit the shelves..... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2004 : 07:44:55
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The WotC forums have been problematic for a very long time. Once a discussion forum reaches a certain level of toxicity, it's extremely difficult to establish a more positive tone.
The problems were not unique to the novels forum, but I think they were most obvious there, largely because books are more readily identified with specific authors than are game products. Also, novel characters offer easy targets for trolling and sniping.
IMO, closing the novels forum created a very awkward situation, as Kuje and others have observed, but keep in mind that not every FR fan believes that books and games are closely intertwined. That seems to be the prevailing attitude here, but the WotC boards lean more toward those who believe books and games should be separate, with a vocal minority who resent the books and are determined to prove that they are "not canon." From either point of view, it would be theoretically possible to eliminate novels from the discussion.
So much for theory.
Kuje, you can't define workable parameters in an unworkable situation, so it might be better to refer people who are interested in the novels to other FR-related sites. FR fans can't do better than Candlekeep. Trolls can probably find a home at www.drizzitsux.com.
Either way, it's time to move on.
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R0GUE
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2004 : 11:05:10
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haha - how many of us clicked on the drizzitsux link to see if there actually was such a webpage?  |
You have had your pocket pilfered by the R0GUE.  |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2004 : 15:41:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
After that, I was banned. *blinks* Has "hiho" become a rude word while I wasn't looking?
Hiho is a bad word now? There is a seven dwarves joke here that I'm going to pass on.  |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 07:47:40
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Not canon? Even the ones with "Ed Greenwood" on the cover?
Are they crazy, or merely insane?
As for the forums in general, I have never once considered moving out of Candlekeep. And though I've joined others (two), not only do I have only a handful of posts on each, neither of them are the WotC forums. (Well, it's three if you count one where I didn't actually post.)
I was simply fortunate to be directed to Candlekeep before anything else. It's simply home. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 08:31:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
I was simply fortunate to be directed to Candlekeep before anything else. It's simply home.
::glances over to Bookwyrms desk, seeing him rocking back on his chair, feet on the table and hands behind his head. His favorite mug upon his desk, sleeping bag behind, stove, toothbrush, personal effects....::
Yup, ya sure made yerself at home, Bookwyrm. Would be the same without ya! |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Edited by - Lord Rad on 16 Mar 2004 08:32:02 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 08:53:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Not canon? Even the ones with "Ed Greenwood" on the cover?
Are they crazy, or merely insane?
Ahaha. You've never met Silverthorne before, then, I trust. Or a number of others who will, at every opportunity, say "Novels are pointless fluff! Only sourcebooks are canon!" Some will even go so far as "the novels have ruined FR!" |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 09:06:44
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Munckin imitation: "I'll say! They never have a single PrC in them! Not even a solitary feat! How can they be considered canon?"
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Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Prince Forge of Avalon
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 09:35:42
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Ah Elaine, you sometimes make me wonder if there is even a hint of darkness anywhere in your person, to your credit you make elegant and no less politically correct comments. It is truly a pleasure to have the chance to associate with you, much less read your books.
Just by reading your comments you were able to anwser my questions about the unfortunate problems at WOTC, to bad for them, and good luck for us that we have the "Lords of the Realms" around.
PFoA |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 13:32:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Prince Forge of Avalon
Ah Elaine, you sometimes make me wonder if there is even a hint of darkness anywhere in your person...
::chuckles:: Oh, there are hints...
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 16:20:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Ahaha. You've never met Silverthorne before, then, I trust. Or a number of others who will, at every opportunity, say "Novels are pointless fluff! Only sourcebooks are canon!" Some will even go so far as "the novels have ruined FR!"
Oh Cyric, I remember that name. If I recall there were also some posters who felt only sourcebooks that were 3e and I guess now 3.5e were canon. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 16:23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
::chuckles:: Oh, there are hints...
Anyone who writes Kymil Nimesin so well has to be finding darkness someplace. |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2004 : 03:43:14
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I agree with Elaine about how diffiult it is to establish a positive tone once a certain level of toxicity is reached.I was upset at WoTC just pulled the rug out from the novel forum,and are telling everyone that they can't have an opinion on a product that they bought from said company.Well at least not able to express it in a discussion with fellow consumers.
Also,what happened to kuje,IMO,was just plain petty.A person comes out,and asks for information concerning a novel,he replies,and gets reprimanded???Hogwash!!!!
Kuje,not to tell you what to do.I would just boycott WoTC's site like I did.Come to Candlekeep,and join in the knowledge of Alaundo and all his scribes!!! |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2004 : 04:05:19
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quote:
Originally posted by VEDSICA
Kuje,not to tell you what to do.I would just boycott WoTC's site like I did.Come to Candlekeep,and join in the knowledge of Alaundo and all his scribes!!!
Attica! Attica!
Sorry, couldn't resist and have probably just dated myself to anyone who has a good knowledge of motion pictures. |
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Prince Forge of Avalon
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2004 : 07:43:48
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Sirius, Wow your older then I thought! hahaha
PFoA |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2004 : 13:32:31
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quote:
Originally posted by VEDSICA
I agree with Elaine about how diffiult it is to establish a positive tone once a certain level of toxicity is reached.I was upset at WoTC just pulled the rug out from the novel forum,and are telling everyone that they can't have an opinion on a product that they bought from said company.Well at least not able to express it in a discussion with fellow consumers.
Consumers can still express opinions. There are many places online where you can discuss the Realms. Offhand, I can think of very few companies that offer an online discussion forum such as those found on the official WotC website.
When it comes to consumer opinions, most corporate websites post selected testimonials. People who want to read a variety of opinions about a new Volkswagon will go to a consumer affairs site, or a site about cars in general that can give an overview and comparison. Disgruntled car owners might even seek out www.newbeetlesucks.com to discuss how much better First Edition was. (Heh...) What possible benefit could there be to Volkwagon to host all this information, discussion, and venting on their corporate site?
Answer: There is very little benefit to the corporation. There is, however, a certain liability, because a company that hosts an online discussion bears some responsibility for the content.
For example, let's say a poster accuses a writer of plagerism. The poster might honestly think that this is just a casual, throw-away comment, an "opinion." But the fact is, it's a very serious and potentially career-damaging accusion, not the sort of thing a working writer can afford to shrug off very often. It's also libel. If the author decided to defend his reputation and career through a lawsuit, he would address both the poster and the company that "published" the libelous comments.
The potential for copyright entanglements is staggering. When you invite fans to offer "constructive criticism" with the goal in mind of "helping the authors" with "suggestions that may or may not be taken" (quoted comments come from the WotC posting guidelines that were in effect the last time I visited the site), you are creating the expectation of an interactive process. If someone has reason to believe that their suggestions might be incorporated into a novel, it's a logical next step for someone to step forward and claim partial ownership of a published work. I'm not a copyright expert, but from what I've read, I would NOT want to be in a position of having to defend myself from such a claim. After all, company employees have published on a company site this apparently official policy. This creates a risk for the company, as well as for any writer who frequents the company site. (I tried for quite some time to point this out. Unfortunately, my efforts were misunderstood and charactered as an "attack on the moderators," a call for censorship, and an attempt to destroy Community.)
There are also possible image problems for the company. For example, hosting threads about controversial topics, such as gay characters in the Realms, inevitably brings out of the woodwork people who will rant that homosexuals are an "abominations," unnatural, disgusting, sinful, and so on. I've seen some incredibly vulgar and hateful diatribes online about this topic, and can only imagine how jarring it would be for a gay fantasy reader to encounter such venom on a corporate website. Or a fantasy reader who has gay friends and relatives. Or, for that matter, any fantasy reader who is troubled to see any group singled out in this fashion. What company would want to project this sort of image?
Which brings us to the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" part of the program. If those who run a company-sponsored website find that certain topics or posting styles are damaging or distasteful, the logical next step is an attempt to regulate what can and can't be posted. This inevitably inspires indignant protests about free speech (most of which come from people who obviously have never read the Constitution and have no idea what freedom of speech entails and what it does not.) Regulation--moderation, if you will--is always a difficult task, but it seems to work better on private sites. Many people are extremely wary of a company's effects to curtail negative opinions of its products.
Is it just me, or is this starting to look like a no-win situation?
I think that the closing of the novels board created some short-term confusion and hard feelings, but I'm not sure that WotC made the wrong decision.
My advice is to let it go. Find another site that suits you. Start a new gaming group and introduce people to your particular vision of the Realms. Dust off your copy of Campaign Cartography and make some detailed maps of your favorite region, city, or dungeon. There are so many creative, positive ways to enjoy the Realms. It makes little sense to spend too much time dwelling on something that didn't work and is no longer an option. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2004 : 15:25:47
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Consumers can still express opinions. There are many places online where you can discuss the Realms. Offhand, I can think of very few companies that offer an online discussion forum such as those found on the official WotC website.
I've never seen a forum as large as WOTC's boards. But, every of the major D20 publishing companies has in some shape or form a message board: Green Ronin, Malhavoc Press, Bastion Press, FFG, etc.
quote:
Is it just me, or is this starting to look like a no-win situation?
Exactly. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2004 : 16:04:05
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
I've never seen a forum as large as WOTC's boards. But, every of the major D20 publishing companies has in some shape or form a message board: Green Ronin, Malhavoc Press, Bastion Press, FFG, etc.
Point taken. It might be worth noting, however, that these d20 companies are just starting to venture into fiction. Fantasy Flight Games has some novels in the pipeline, Bastion Press offers one by Thomas Reid, Malhovoc Press has an anthology. You're not likely to find open discussion forums hosted by major publishers of fantasy fiction, such as Tor and Penquin. Such sites are geared toward information, not interaction.
The RPG hobby is, by its very nature, interactive. Discussion forums seem to be a natural extension of this. Novels, however, are not an interactive process -- at least, not beyond the alchemy that exists between a writer's words and a reader's imagination. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2004 : 16:33:04
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Understood, But, I believe even more of a point, and something that made WOTC's board more prone to be hostile....the company's popularity. Those D20 companies, sell what, a fraction of what WOTC does for D&D and FR. If they become as popular as WOTC, I guarantee they will run into the same type of board problems as WOTC did be it regarding novels or something else. I think it's inevitable when more and more people come to a site.
I've seen the ENWorld board have some nasty exchanges over some controversial topics. Granted, it's not a company, but a D20 in general community. However, the thing that saves ENWorld is it has some really good moderators who nip stuff in the bud. |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2004 : 18:04:33
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Elaine,I can totally see your point of view.It is a no-win situation.Also in today's sue-happy world.I wouldn't put it past someone to try,and bring about a copyright infringement lawsuit on someone else.Especially,online!!!Just because someone suggested it,and it might appear to be in a novel that they read down the line.I mean,I know nothing of law,but can that really hold up in the court of law????Wait!anything is possible.
I think that WoTc could have had the moderators just delete whatever was offensive in the posts,and let all the good,constructive stuff slide.Not just come in ,and say,"That's it,we're shutting it down!"Which by the way is thier right.I haven't lost sight of that fact.To me.WoTC shutting down the novel forums were lame.They didn't have to get rid of it.They could have kept it,and managed it better.
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LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2004 : 19:06:41
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I understand where you're coming from, Vedsica. I wish the WotC novel topics were still a going concern, also.
But I also think that deleting "whatever was offensive" could have turned out to be a very big job, could ultimately have generated more hostility than just shutting down the boards outright, and on top of that, there's no guarantee that it would have fixed the problem WotC was trying to solve. Because what if the moderators made an error in judgment and let a problematic post slip through? Then the company could still wind up with the kind of trouble it's trying to avoid. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2004 : 19:38:11
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The problem with these new "rules", at least from the three other posters I have discussed this with, is that the rules are not clear on what exactly is or is not a "novel" discussion.
So far we have narrowed it down to, you can't discuss turning novels into movies, nor can you ask about the novels dealing with the Tethyr Wars, for some odd reason. However, you can discuss the Spider Queen novels, since that thread hasn't been shut down.... Yet.....
It has gotten to the point where all of us are afraid to say the word novel since we might get banned or given a warning even though we are trying to be helpful and answer new posts by members who just signed up. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2004 : 20:41:08
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That's true Richard.It could happen.Some post were blantant attempts to light a fire in the community.Those post have to go.But having someone come on,and discuss with you a certain topic about "The Rage" taken away.That to me is the whole lame part of it.I really appreciate the time that you authors take to come,and discuss certain topics concerning your novels.That was taken away,and I resent that.Not to say that I couldn't ask you on your personal websites(if you had them)Maybe you did,maybe you didn't.Or on another website as Elaine pointed out.But we aren't discussing those.I only read the novels from WoTC.Don't game anymore.I enjoy reading the novels very much.What I really enjoy is coming here,and talking to you about that novel.Even if it is just a compliment.WoTC took that away from a lot of people.That's what burns me up a little bit.
But I've moved on......Candlekeep rocks!!!!And I am happy to come here to continue discussing novels!!! |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2004 : 20:41:48
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
The problem with these new "rules", at least from the three other posters I have discussed this with, is that the rules are not clear on what exactly is or is not a "novel" discussion.
That's poor communication, plain and simple. WOTC's higher ups should be clearly stating to their moderators what is and isn't allowed, and from them the general direction is passed along to the community.
Obviously, based on your experiences, it sounds as if this isn't happening and there is no continuity on what is or isn't allowed. Granted, the WOTC board wouldn't be the first forum this has happened in, but it's still distressing.
I will say this much Kuje. Your post has made me sooooo grateful I gave up on the WOTC board after the novel forums shut down. |
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WOTC's New Novel Rules
