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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 05:15:37
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During my time as a DM, I've seen players whose PCs are nothing more than a collection of stats and numbers, with a little background flavor for necessity's sake.
To me, these PCs lack focus, a particular direction in which to strive for. They go from one encounter to the next, never achieving anything more than accumulating XP. While this may appeal to some gamers, it does not carry with me, nor do I usually allow such an aspect in any of my games.
In the past, I've utilised an idea originally borrowed from the Planewalker's Handbook. I've built upon this idea extensively since that time, in order to give PCs (and their players) some kind of belief, or direction that either extends their perceived notions that are associated with the PC's alignment, or deity's religious belief.
All individuals have the freedom of choice and the right to do whatever they want.
This is a belief that is associated with many protagonists where their mercy comes into play. Acceptance of the consequences of one's actions is something that will have to always be there, making those that break the law to do something obligated to take the punishment. Remember, while they will give the antagonist the right/chance to choose, they will not feel regret dealing with them justly when they have obviously chosen their fate.
Those in power are always in the right.
A very selfish belief for many people. If said character gets into a position of power, they will feel it is their right to do what they want without having to answer to morality. However, qualms for those heavily subscribed to this will face challenges when various people of rank/station command them to do something, as to challenge their decisions is against their belief.
The strong should always help the weak.
A paladin code if I ever saw one, altruism being the forefront. Adventures can brew up from such a character attempting to convince a person in power to actually use it to the benefit of others.
Intentionally inflicting pain on others is wrong.
Pacifist code in its simplest definition. PCs will find themselves resorting to enchantment/charm alot to salve possible incidents, while melee characters will learn grapple to its upmost. Another way, and more interesting, is for said character to actually obtain a great deal of power that can kill droves of people and always end up using it to merely intimidate while attempting to solve problems without actually causing damage to people. The option for subdual damage is technically too much because it does cause pain.
Obviously, torture and anything related to such is distasteful when used to say the least.
For non-combat situations, this could extend to emotional pain, where even greater problems lie. Such an option will prevent said characters from effectively dealing with the more emotionally charged antagonists, because to be prevented from doing their goals will hurt them immensely. This can be solved for spellcasters, who can change one's mindset.
The past should be ignored, because only the present is important.
While you get to have a carefree character, this also gives many villians immunity to an attack on the logical edge of this belief. Unless they are currently performing evil, or planning to do so, they are not in the wrong. Research is a distasteful activity for such characters, since the past is not important. It allows for easy redemption, creating situations similar to the mercy scenario. This mindset will provide a party the needed initiative to go onward with an adventure, providing that neccessary push from stagnation or thinking too long on a subject.
Knowledge is free, and should never be witheld from anyone.
Although this will give a character the need to demand much information from many, he has to live with it himself. Valuable and dangerous information is not safe with said characters, who feel obligated to inform when asked. An open atmosphere is appreciated by many because of these people, who can enlighten many if given the chance.
Taking risks is foolish and wrong.
More appropriate for the reluctant hero, because they will opt to take the safe and easy route over the one with danger. Now, when the situation has little chance of danger through their presence, they are valuable aids because their presence is a sign that not much is going to go wrong as they strive to provide an equal safety to others around them. However, while sticking to this belief is easy for PC to do, they will have to answer to the rest of the party when they die because said character didn't want to risk himself. Not many enjoy cowards.
Every individual has to improve the lives of others at every available opportunity.
Similar to the strong helping the weak, but more broad. As a reminder for both beliefs, the major issues of conflict will arise when they have an important personal quest to perform and they see another in need.
Comforts and pleasures serve only to weaken.
A relatively personal-range belief, creating tough characters which can provide conflict when moving their beliefs onto others. Major issues will arise when they find themselves in depression, or realizing that when they enjoy fighting they are breaking their belief.
All individuals are responsible for their own well-being, and reliance upon others is wrong.
While some characters subscribe to this frequently when it comes to dealing with others. they will find this belief a hard pill to swallow when they are desperately in need of assistance in some form and cannot accept help from anyone unless they can provide compensation. If somehow forced assistance, such characters will either be indebted to them or will possibly send themselves back into the original predicament so that they can help themselves.
Lying is always wrong.
Very similar to the information belief above, only this time they cannot even provide false information when not asked for it. Also, many people will be hurt by this sometimes grating resulting belief.
Mercy should be given to all beings, even when unrequested.
Narrowed version of the freedom of choice, where they are not as personally obligated to help others in need. Basically, said individuals give many chances to their opponents, frequently resorting to letting them live after fully destroying their plans. While it does provide the benefit of the occasion where the villian actually changes his ways, it will hurt the character often by allowing the character a chance to come back and haunt him or even survive because of the needed moment.
The powers are evil, and priests should not be tolerated.
Pretty much the more militant version of Planescape's Athar faction. This belief will be fraught with difficulty with the sheer number of enemies they will face.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 05:19:09
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Here's a number of others...
Inaction is worse than the most extreme action
To some, not being involved is a crime. Perhaps understandably, because sometimes it takes the shattering of worlds to get people to act.
Of course, this philosophy can lead to extremism.
It is the exact following of an ethical code that makes individuals just, not the ethical code itself.
Ethical codes usually have things in common. Clearly, the following of rules of behaviour rarely leads to evil. There even exist arguments (however shaky) that all ethical codes *are* the same, no matter the origin.
Law is eternal, but not unchanging. Following the law is just, no matter what the law is.
Good and evil are defined from my own experiences
How can I ever know right from wrong?. Am I born with that ultimate knowledge, or do I need someone to tell me it?. The 'right thing' may be nothing more than a careful conditioning done to me by my environment. Isn't that how most people come by their righteousness?
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 06:13:32
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Sage you've done it again .
Although our characters usually have direction (megalomaniacal Halfling with visions of grandure and an Imperial Dynasty, etc.) This will help on more short term goals (pun not intended ).
This is a grand list, and if we could think of any we'd add to it... But most are already there... just opposites  |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 06:29:00
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I didn't know halflings worshiped Lloth . . . .  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 06:37:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Cardinal Deimos
Sage you've done it again.
Although our characters usually have direction (megalomaniacal Halfling with visions of grandure and an Imperial Dynasty, etc.) This will help on more short term goals (pun not intended).
This is a grand list, and if we could think of any we'd add to it... But most are already there... just opposites
Go ahead and post those opposites anyway...They could serve to generate other focuses for your characters.
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 20:40:27
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Ok, we'll see what we can come up with.
The Ends will be justified Mostly followed by those who believe that whatever they do will serve the greater good in the end. These people are not above dealing with forces of evil, brigands, or fiends to make sure that their goals are accomplished. Thes goals maybe to cure a disease, or halt an orc army from destroying a large forest, etc. They will sacrifice many others to make sure that their goal is achieved, which will usually be good for the generations down the road.
The True Artist The true artists are usually half mad, yet gifted in their chosen profession. They are somewhat similar to the ends will be justified, they will create weapons, items, or pieces of art of unheard of quality... However they will endlessly pursue a never ending need to make something of even greater quality. This can lead to violent and even evil actions to work with new mediums, craft better things, and build upon their masterpieces with new abilities.
There's a two for now. And Bookwyrm, he never did follow Lolth... No, no he never did, he planned to become the first evil Halfling god... after establishing his Empire. His common belief was anyone higher than three feet lost intelligence at an alarming rate. Which means they are only fit for menial tasks. Of course that's why he set out with the party, elves, half-elves and human with naught but a dwarf? They needed a leader, they needed a brain. They needed him! Of course he usually only got along well with the dwarf, and the stupid tall folk picked on him and used him for bait on more than one occasion but they didn't know any better, the savages that they are and without him they'd wander lost and die from asphyxiation, since he wouldn't be around to tell them to breathe. It was such fun! |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 02:04:10
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| Hmmm, as a rule, I only play characters motivated by power, lust for wealth, and selfishness. Your ethics wouldn't help many of my characters. Of course, I could come up with an "evil" exact opposite of your list, but I don't think you'd want to hear it.... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 08:02:12
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Shadowlord, your description of the type of PC that you enjoy playing doesn't surprise me...
Actually, I think it would be interesting, not to mention useful, to see your "evil" exact opposite listing...Afterall, not all PCs are going to be of a 'lawful' alignment. Some players enjoy role-playing characters with an 'chaotic' or 'evil' bent.
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2004 : 03:57:36
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What ever I can get away with is fair game.
The basis for the phrase caveat emptor. A rather commonly held belief that as long as nobody notices, complains, has a rule otherwise, or tries to stop one from performing selfish actions then these actions are acceptable.
All others are but means to gain that which I seek.
A rather psychotic mind-set, completely lacking in sympathy or compassion for the plight of others. There are two variations of this belief -- the conditional and the absolute. A person who follows this conditionally only does so in order to carry out a particular task or to achieve a particular goal. They view this one task as so important that it dwarfs the needs of all others. Once they have completed this task they lose this mindset. The absolutist on the other hand feels it applies in all situations and have completely divorced themselves from the rest of society in the pursuit of their megalomania.
Cheers,
Sarta |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2004 : 06:31:10
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These are both very interesting Sarta.
I especially liked the second 'option'. The 'absolutist' variation could be of great use to a player who enjoys using a particularly unscrupulous rogue PC, who cares nothing for the staid formalities of a society.
I've got just such a player in my current group at the moment...
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2004 : 12:15:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Cardinal Deimos
His common belief was anyone higher than three feet lost intelligence at an alarming rate.
Well, obviously. Anything with a head that high up couldn't be getting enough oxygen to his brain.
Unless, of course, one has a nice, powerful heart like a dragon.
(What, you didn't think I'd leave myself open like that, did you?  ) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2004 : 12:21:39
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Lawholder
Rules exist for a reason; without them, people resort to savagry. One must uphold laws, not ignore or break them. An unjust law, however, is never a law, and so should be disregarded. No, should be fought, for law exists to aid as many people as possible, rather than a select few. Honor is paramount; whenever possible, all respect should be given to anyone. Rule by strength alone is anathema; logic, reason, and the agreement of the many are what should govern society. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2004 : 09:51:06
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Well, hmmm... he was just firm in his belief that anything highter than three feet lost intellignece... He didn't care much for reasoning... (he had otherthings to worry about... Like the Dwarf tossing him into a moat only to be swallowed whole by a giant toad.... ) Anyways we have a rather fond Belief that counters your Lawholder
Eye of the Maelstrom
To many this idea is a way of life, a curse and a burden. They do not seek to harm others or anger them but they seem to succeed in that as much as they succeed in causing chaos. The chaos that they cause does not phase them the slightest, and only strengthens their resolve to whatever side they sit on. Once it seems that the side their on is represented enough or grow bored, they simply fade away like a dust devil, only spring up elsewhere to champion the underdog or whatever side strikes their fancy... or at least until something as equally amusing comes along, causing as much havoc as they can whether intentional or not. It's not unheard of for them to form, make or force the creation of third and even fourth sides, since for them it's not the cause, but the chaos that they thrive on.
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It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 00:32:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Shadowlord, your description of the type of PC that you enjoy playing doesn't surprise me...
Actually, I think it would be interesting, not to mention useful, to see your "evil" exact opposite listing...Afterall, not all PCs are going to be of a 'lawful' alignment. Some players enjoy role-playing characters with an 'chaotic' or 'evil' bent.
Really? You're actually interested? Well then. I'll get right on that. However, Sarta already took two of them.... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 01:52:10
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| Of course you do. Seeing as how I was the first to bring that faith to the Keep, I should have at least some expertise.... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 03:51:15
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I don't think you are the first follower of Vhaeraun here at Candlekeep Shadowlord, though you are the most prominent...
I seem to recall another scribe (whose name I cannot remember at the moment) during the 'Branmakmuffin-era' who also worshipped one of the Dark Seldarine, namely Vhaeraun - although he wasn't as vocal about his faith as you are...
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 04:14:02
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Awww... and I hoped to be the first....
Oh well, at least I am the most notable.
I've already got one aspect of the Beliefs done, but I am hesitant to post until I finish completely. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 04:31:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
Oh well, at least I am the most notable.
Notable...prominent....those are a few ways to put it. Verbose? Dare I say that?
But, give me a follower of Vhaeraun or Eilistraee any day over the rest of their pantheon. |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 04:37:51
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| Verbose??? Thine tongue strayeth too far.... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 04:38:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Lawholder
Rules exist for a reason; without them, people resort to savagry. One must uphold laws, not ignore or break them. An unjust law, however, is never a law, and so should be disregarded. No, should be fought, for law exists to aid as many people as possible, rather than a select few. Honor is paramount; whenever possible, all respect should be given to anyone. Rule by strength alone is anathema; logic, reason, and the agreement of the many are what should govern society.
This is an example of a law-based focus that I've been looking for. A player of mine (who is using the 'Justiciar' PrC from Complete Warrior) wanted me to come up with a focus for his character. Your efforts though Bookwyrm, may have given me the idea I needed. Can I borrow (maybe even modify) it for a short while...?
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 06:48:37
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The Justicar, eh? I'd almost put that into my list of PrCs usable in any campaign, especially since I'd put in the Hunter of the Dead. I'd decided that the Justicar was just a hair more specialized than the Hunter, since I'm sure that most DMs would use more undead than prisoner-oriented plots.
Sage, consider everything I put out on Candlekeep the way I consider anything in such a public place. That is, shareware. I'm sure you're going to correct my use of that word, but what I mean is that if anyone tells me something and doesn't say it's a secret, I'll consider it common knowledge. (I got in severe trouble with a lady friend because of such an incident. But she hadn't indicated it was a secret . . . . )
Anyway, if I put out something that does not obviously belong to a particular project of mine (such as Jack Archer, or any other stories I indicate, or my brothers', which I mentioned a time or two) to be open for use by all and sundry. So long, of course, that no one actually steals it for his/her own. Then I'd get testy.
I understand why you asked, of course, but now you have a general answer for anything I put up. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 07:10:26
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Thank you Bookwyrm, I will consider what you have said about your content here at Candlekeep .
I won't correct your use of the term 'shareware' though, it has a certain aspect appeal to it that I can appreciate...
Now, I haven't looked over the 'Hunter of the Dead' PrC yet, mainly because I'd just received my copy of Complete Warrior yesterday, and, while flipping through it on the way to the university, the 'Justiciar' PrC was the first class to jump out to me and say..."Use me in your campaign...please". I'll look over the 'Hunter' class though, because undead will feature prominently in my campaign shortly...it may be the better option.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 09:03:16
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That thought wouldn't have had anything to do with the wonderfully evocative illustration of the PrC, would it?
To me, that guy's saying "There are two ways of doing this. I really hope you choose the hard way. I've been really bored lately." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 09:39:09
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Actually it did . I always allow a little room in my decision making process (for anything in D&D) for illustrations or artwork. If it looks 'good', and the stats, and source information provide what I need, then it's a sure bet that I'll find some way to include whatever it is, into my campaign.
Plus, with all the buzz (well actually, mostly rumors) about a small faction of militant elves wandering the countryside in my campaign of late, it just seemed to...'CLICK'.
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 20:26:49
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| Forgive me, but isn't the term 'shareware' referring to software only? Bookwyrm, I think a better term would be 'sharelore.' |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2004 : 01:10:13
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Indeed Shadowlord, 'Sharelore' is the better term.
'Shareware' appealed to me mainly because of my training in computer programming, which I'm sure was a factor in the Bookwyrm's thinking...
Anyway, I think we should get back to discussing belief/focus trends in the Realms...
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2004 : 07:46:14
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Plus for some reason computer analogies seem to pop up at me a lot. I don't know why, because they always feel weak to me. Likely because I know about as much about computers as . . . . um . . . ::searches for a good analogy:: . . . as Jack Chick knows about D&D? No, wait, I at least know computers aren't Satan's spawn. Though occasionally they feel like it.
Anyway, "sharelore" seems a good term, Shadowlord. What say we use that one to describe such works placed here in the library? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2004 : 12:06:25
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'Sharelore' it is...Alaundo, please make a note...
Bookwyrm said -
quote:
Plus for some reason computer analogies seem to pop up at me a lot. I don't know why, because they always feel weak to me. Likely because I know about as much about computers as . . . . um . . . ::searches for a good analogy:: . . . as Jack Chick knows about D&D?
It's not that, I've often found most computer analogies to be poor in context at best. I think it has more to do with the fact that these terms are often phrased by people who have little, to no understanding of the actual processes involved with what they are describing.
I mean, I know people who still call the old 3.5" diskette a 'hard-disk'...
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2004 : 13:28:46
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| Well, that's what I thought when I was younger. After all, the five-and-a-quarter disks were "floppy." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2004 : 13:57:04
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Ah, the old five-and-a-quarters... I think I've still got some of those here somewhere. One of them even has my first AD&D character profile saved on it.
You know, I might dig those old disks out, find the file, and post it here in the 'Adventuring' section...that'll be a laugh...
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Belief of Purpose in the Realms
