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Waltz Nemethor
Acolyte
Korea
5 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 16:04:09
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My first General FR Chat post!
I am basing this question on texts on Faiths and Avatars, and I got a bit confused and was wondering if the other scribes can weigh in.
Is Tymora physically unattractive?
In Beshaba's entry, it is said that "when Tyche split to become her two warring “daughters” in the Dawn Cataclysm, Beshaba got the looks, and Tymora all the love". This could mean exactly that (Beshaba got ALL of Tyche's physical beauty and Tymora her inner beauty).
However, on the box "Rotten Luck" (still in Beshaba's entry) it is written that "Tyche’s rotted core split right down the middle and a smaller, brighter version of the goddess of luck stepped out, allowing the goddess of the moon to save that which was good and pure in her friend. However, following this first figure from the rotten external shell was another form stunning to behold, but full of dark malice and capricious ill will." Does this mean that Tymora looked exactly like Tyche did, only smaller in stature?
In Tymora's entry, it is stated that "She is reputed by sages to have had short-lived romances with several of the good male deities of Faerűn, but these ended amicably on both sides after a short while." Which may indicate that she was physically beautiful, but it may also mean that the gods she had relations with saw through her outward appearance.
Though there have been illustrations of the goddess Tymora, I feel those are subjective to the viewer (for myself, the face illustrated on the coin surrounded by shamrocks is pretty homely, considering Waukeen's coin shows a pretty attractive woman).
I am certainly interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter, fellow scribes.
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Thank you, Forgotten Realms. You have shaped my youthful mind as a youngster, helped me on the path of creativity as an adult, and is severely cutting into my thesis-writing as a grad student. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 16:52:43
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She looks like whatever she wants to look like. She's a goddess. The notion of having one physical body doesn't apply.
I think physical appearance isn't overly important to her. She probably sees vanity and narcissism as failures to appreciate the gifts that Fate (still a parent/superior figure) bestows.
I picture Tymora and her avatars and agents as smiling whenever possible. Clean face, perhaps an impish nose and a capricious lock of hair that periodically dances on her forehead. Fit, perhaps even toned, because good luck suggests happiness, and that increases metabolism and adrenaline and causes frequent bouts of dancing and other physical activity.
She wants things to go well for those who wish others well. It doesn't matter to her what she looks like, beyond the hope that seeing her will make people smile. So on a hypothetical continuum between hideous and heavenly, she'll be conventionally attractive but not in the supermodel or bikini babe kind of way. Her features are simple, not exotic, and serve to convey her happiness and evoke confidence and motivation in others.
Just my 2 cents. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 16:59:49
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Tymora should be able to get lucky no matter what she looks like.  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 17:04:38
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| Ba-dum tsss. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 17:25:11
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Ba-dum tsss.
Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week.  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 17:25:11
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
She looks like whatever she wants to look like. She's a goddess. The notion of having one physical body doesn't apply.
I think physical appearance isn't overly important to her. She probably sees vanity and narcissism as failures to appreciate the gifts that Fate (still a parent/superior figure) bestows.
I picture Tymora and her avatars and agents as smiling whenever possible. Clean face, perhaps an impish nose and a capricious lock of hair that periodically dances on her forehead. Fit, perhaps even toned, because good luck suggests happiness, and that increases metabolism and adrenaline and causes frequent bouts of dancing and other physical activity.
She wants things to go well for those who wish others well. It doesn't matter to her what she looks like, beyond the hope that seeing her will make people smile. So on a hypothetical continuum between hideous and heavenly, she'll be conventionally attractive but not in the supermodel or bikini babe kind of way. Her features are simple, not exotic, and serve to convey her happiness and evoke confidence and motivation in others.
Just my 2 cents.
I'll second this. True form for a deity is kinda a sketchy subject. They have the power to change their appearance at will. What they "really look like" is kind of subjective. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 18:08:45
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| I think Tymora would look more or less exactly like the finest statues of Tymora which worldly artisans could contrive. Sculptors and painters have a tendency to be inspired by the most beautiful (or at least the most visually compelling) female figures they have witnessed. |
[/Ayrik] |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 19:19:30
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Another take on it is that each individual perceives the gods differently.
Sune is a paragon of beauty... whatever each person (regardless of race, age, etc) finds most beautiful. If someone was fortunate enough to see her more than once, she would probably appear differently each time, reflecting that individual's evolving desires and understanding.
Similarly, Tymora appears as "Lady Luck" to whoever sees her. Whatever you imagine as the ideal personification of good luck, that's what she looks like. To you. Don't try to convince anyone else of what she looks like, or you're going to have a bad day.
Whether you want to look at this as having no true form, or every form, or shapechange at-will... doesn't ultimately matter. The gods are whatever you need them to be. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 21:11:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
She looks like whatever she wants to look like. She's a goddess. The notion of having one physical body doesn't apply.
I'll second this. True form for a deity is kinda a sketchy subject. They have the power to change their appearance at will. What they "really look like" is kind of subjective.
To a certain degree. E.g. for Lolth her true form is still a touchy subject. Sure she can glamor herself in all kinds of fancy illusion of shapechange, but beneath it all she knows her true form is the one Corellon cursed her with and which she can not overcome. The most beautiful drow maiden form she may take is still just a mask hiding her curse. Occasionally by cursing drow with her own true form (ask her about this contradiction she dares you  ) is her only valve to let out some steam
So to some point the true form matters even to entities who can cloak themselves with any shape at will |
Edited by - Mirtek on 12 Mar 2015 21:12:19 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 21:17:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
E.g. for Lolth her true form is still a touchy subject. Sure she can glamor herself in all kinds of fancy illusion of shapechange, but beneath it all she knows her true form is the one Corellon cursed her with and which she can not overcome.
Even if she's cursed or imprisoned in a shape, that isn't her true form. Much like an apprentice who goes snooping in the master's spellbook might be polymorphed into a toad. Escaping toadform might be impossible without help, but the apprentice is not truly a toad... he's still an impulsive human, stuck in toad form. True seeing would probably indicate that there's more to the toad than just a toad, and a wish spell would certainly show (or restore) the truth.
That's all still talking about the physical form, though, and it's not necessarily a limitation on deities. Lolth still has the ability to take any form in someone's nightmares, or when manifesting as a result of some foolish mortal's ritual. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 12 Mar 2015 21:22:16 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 21:24:55
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
True seeing would probably indicate that there's more to the toad than just a toad,
And that's the difference to Corellon's curse. A strong enough true seeing would reveal her spider-hybrid-cursed-form no matter what magic Lolth piles on top of it. So true form matters to a degree even for deities
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Lolth still has the ability to take any form in someone's nightmares, or when manifesting as a result of some foolish mortal's ritual.
And even if the mortal can never see behind her chosen form, she knows it and it drives her mad |
Edited by - Mirtek on 12 Mar 2015 21:25:59 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 21:25:54
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Faerunian deities might manifest in any number of ways. Dreams, visions, illusions, possessions, omens, miracles, interventions, whatever. But when they choose the form of an avatar they seem somewhat constrained by the avatar's physical limits - finite capacities on how much divine power, magic, and omni-everything at their command. Avatars can even be imprisoned, crippled, or destroyed - no lasting harm to the deity aside from failed actions and the power/time investment needed to form another avatar.
It seems to me that avatars are probably each "constructed" with a fixed form and appearance. Yes, they can shapechange and polymorph at will, but underneath it all might be a uniquely-identifiable "person".
The process by which a deity forms an avatar is never detailed. Perhaps they mirror the image most fervently revered among their Faithful, perhaps they claim/reformat the soul and body of a favoured mortal to assign this purpose, perhaps they even recreate/reincarnate one who has already departed the living world. |
[/Ayrik] |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 22:07:44
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I think in the realms its unclear whether deities have fixed typical forms, or if they are non corporeal entities. Stories like this are possibly metaphorical or the invention of mortals. Presumably this arises out of there being so many authors with different ideas. Its unclear to me at times whether deities have a physical form or if they only appear as various avatars. (Selvetarm, Mystra, Moander and Vhaeraun being killed suggests they have a true form corporeal form that can create avatars)
I more think of them as non-physical entities that can create physical manifestations that are not their true forms, although that contradicts some events...
In creating avatars their perspective might be constrained, though, by their nature. In a novel Mystra and Oghma discuss the limitations of deific perceptions (MYstra saw all the Gods as wizards and Oghma saw them all as sages... they could only see things from their perspective) Can Talona appear beautiful? I would say not because she is shaped by belief, her nature and her portfolio. She would always appear as described a "once beautiful woman..." and ugly. Deities may view things in a way we cannot comprehend, perhaps limited in some ways by their nature. It is not necessarily entirely their choice, despite their power beyond mortal comprehension.
If they have corporeal essential forms I think that Tymora was not intended to be ugly, just not exquisitely beautiful like Beshaba. On a spectrum there is a long way between incredibly beautiful and unattractive. (She was drawn in the 3e pantheons book, too, seated on a throne) |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 22:42:34
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I don't necessarily think the intent is to paint Tymora as homely or unattractive. Merely to paint Beshaba as more attractive in the sexually seductive sense.
I largely agree with what everyone else posted. |
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Waltz Nemethor
Acolyte
Korea
5 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 00:44:31
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Thanks for the responses.
I agree that the divinities are not tied down to a single physical manifestation as mortals and other beings. (eg. When Thazienne interacted with Shar at the end of Sands of the Soul, Shar was nothing more than sentient darkness) But the descriptions placed such an emphasis on Beshaba's beauty, and if we can definitively say that one goddess is a ravishing beauty, then we should also be able to definitively say that one goddess is not. After all, Beshaba can take on the form of an ugly woman or man if she wanted to (not that she would want to, she just can), but that doesn't negate the description that is repeatedly applied to her: beautiful. That and the wordings of the entries for both goddesses just tickled me imagination.:)
Also, while the gods' form may be fluid, there are still descriptors that are attached to them. Mr. Hedgehog touched on this (I may be wrong, but I think this was in Crucible) that the gods see the other gods (and even their surroundings) based on their ethos and sphere of domain. But what I was referring to was sort of the way Ayryn and the sensates did in Tymora's Luck, where Chauntea, Lathander, Milil etc. were appeared a certain way when scryed upon and Bors recognized them for who they are based on those descriptions. As xaeyruudh mentioned, these are not hard and fast rules, and a god can appear however s/he damned pleases. But while these divinities could take on any form they wish, the people of Faerun must surely have a description of each divinity (Beshaba has white hair, is drop-dead gorgeous, and will probably drop you dead. Sune has red locks and is beauty itself. Shar has jet-black hair, etc.) They probably fall into certain patterns when no one is looking. The question on how Tymora "looks" is her as Faerunian's describe her.
Artemas: Of course! That explains it! She could take the form of a gnat and still score with the divine gents! :D |
Thank you, Forgotten Realms. You have shaped my youthful mind as a youngster, helped me on the path of creativity as an adult, and is severely cutting into my thesis-writing as a grad student. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 01:11:24
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There may be common ways of describing the gods, but they're just a wash of dreams and hearsay. With the exception of a few dozen scattered folks during the Time of Troubles, no common folks have ever seen a god, or an avatar.
It's easy for misinformation to spread. A commoner who sees a chosen of Mystra using silver fire --or a spellfire channeler using spellfire-- would likely believe they were looking at Mystra herself. Descriptions of that individual would become the new "This is what Mystra looks like" in that community.
Priests are deeply invested in making commoners believe that priests and temples are the most reliable channel to divine goodwill. So clerics will eagerly declare (1) the dreams and visions they think they've had are real and divinely inspired, and (2) what they see when they see their deity in those dreams or whatever is the objective truth of that deity.
Anyone who wants to seem important can claim to represent a god, or bear a divine message, or whatever. Those who believe them will spread the "good word" of what that deity allegedly said, did, and looked like... and all of it is potentially made-up.
So sure, Beshaba is more beautiful than Tymora... to someone who has more respect for Beshaba than for Tymora. Ask Daramos Lauthyr, though, and you'll get the opposite information. Who has more credibility? Neither, in my opinion.
I'm not trying to shut down anyone's interpretation... the gods are whatever your campaign needs them to be. For me... there is no objective truth regarding the gods. Not even the gods see each other as they "truly are."
Oops. There is one objective truth. Cyric sucks. *whistles a jaunty tune*
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Waltz Nemethor
Acolyte
Korea
5 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 02:33:02
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I'm in class but this is got my thinking cells preoccupied, haha.
xaeyruudh, we definitely agree: there is no objective form for the deities (their core self).
I am looking at it from a different point of view. The question was not meant to be a philosophical treatise on Tymora's divine essence and core. It was a question on what form she is most understood as for the Realms. It is not a matter of the myriad forms that she can take, but that there is a sense of how she is perceived by the people of Faerun. I like to think of this as a "Known Form", or the form most familiar to the realms. This is not the end-all-be-all form, the only form, or the definitive form. Just the common consensus.
For example, if I were to walk around Waterdeep and say, "I had a vision of a goddess. She was beauty beyond beauty, with hair as red as the setting sun and skin as white as snow. But I don't know who she is" The people would probably point out that it was a vision of Sune. Which:
1) It could be any divinity other than Sune, for all of them could take the form of a gorgeous red head;
2) It is not the objective form of Sune, just the way I perceived her
And yet if I ask people who they think that goddess was, most would probably say Sune. Because the descriptors fit. It is her Known Form.
And then another person comes along and says "But I had a vision of Sune last night as well! At least she said she was Sune. But she had glowing ebony skin and yellow hair. But she was also the most beautiful creature I have ever seen." Some people would probably agree that it was Sune, but there would be a portion who would direct the speaker to the nearest temple for verification, because it runs counter to the Known Form. Whether or not it is Sune is irrelevant, just that there is a Known Form and this vision does not comply with it.
The thought that Sune would appear as however a person defines beauty piques my interest as well. What if there was also a third man who exclaimed "I also received a vision from a goddess I do not know. All I know is that she was so exquisitely lovely it was beyond all comprehension!". People would probably list Sune as a possibility due to her descriptors. But what if this was a man who, due to whatever experiences or illness, had a twisted, sick definition of beauty. Asymmetry, flaws, scars and such all meant beautiful to him, while classical beauty was boring and nothing exciting in his eyes? Would Sune deign to show these attributes to pander to his vision of what he believes is beautiful? Or will she try to show him beauty as she defines it?
Oh, I rambled to a tangent, sorry! Haha. Anyway, What I'm trying to say is, there are common descriptors. If I walked around asking about a vision I had of a goddess with white hair, dressed in black and was ravishingly beautiful, most people would probably say "That sounds like Beshaba" and then run away. Whether they are right or wrong, whether the goddess I am describing is Beshaba or not, whether this is what Beshaba looks like or not, the point is Faerunians have descriptors that fit the view of who Beshaba is. What descriptors can I use that, if I walk around the Realms proclaiming them, would make people say "Well, that sounds like Tymora"? And could one of those descriptors be, well, ugly?
quote:
So sure, Beshaba is more beautiful than Tymora... to someone who has more respect for Beshaba than for Tymora. Ask Daramos Lauthyr, though, and you'll get the opposite information.
Surely, however, Daramos Lauthyr (forgive me, I do not know which book the character appears in) would not say that Beshaba in her known form is physically appalling? Beshaba's "beauty" seems to be common knowledge in the realms. He may decry her foul ways, but that's a whole different thing. And whether Beshaba is more beautiful that Tymora in their known forms or not should be answerable by comparison of their known forms, not by devotion or zeal. A priestess of Mystra may love her above all, and objectively say that Sune is more physically beautiful based on the known forms.
Again, not talking in absolutes about "this is what Tymora looks like". Just the known forms.
Okay, sorry for the ramble! Back to Advanced Statistics! |
Thank you, Forgotten Realms. You have shaped my youthful mind as a youngster, helped me on the path of creativity as an adult, and is severely cutting into my thesis-writing as a grad student. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 03:06:28
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Tymora > statistics, every day of the week.
Sorry about the unrecognized name; Daramos Lauthyr is a fanatic priest of Tymora in Arabel in the 1350s and 60s DR. And you're right, he wouldn't be able to make a strong case for Beshaba being ugly.
I hear you on the "known form" issue. My only other comment would be that the known forms could vary a lot based on culture and geography. People in Rashemen have a different idea of Chauntea than folks in the Sword Coast North, etc.
Anyway, carry on! (mean, mode, standard deviation, zzzzzz.)
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 03:28:10
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Ooh, I missed this.
quote:
Originally posted by Waltz Nemethor
Would Sune deign to show these attributes to pander to his vision of what he believes is beautiful? Or will she try to show him beauty as she defines it?
Just my opinion: yes and no.
Not exactly to pander, or at least that wasn't where I was going with that idea. And Sune's definition of beauty is all-encompassing, so when he sees the most beautiful being he's ever seen, it's part of her definition as well. She is his ideal beauty, and his brother's and his neighbor's, at the same time, regardless of how different those ideals are.
To me it's not that she deliberately changes her form to fit someone's definition of beauty. It's that she is everything that anyone considers beautiful, and anyone who perceives her sees the things they find most beautiful.
Not trying to get technical (I don't really have the education for it) but we can picture gods' embodiment of their portfolios as the entire spectrum of light -- infrared, uv, visible light, everything. People can see only a very limited range of wavelengths... so visible light might represent the "known form." Unusual definitions of beauty can be like having a red or blue filter on your glasses... you see what you want to see, as long as we keep a loose definition of "want." Eh, maybe not the best analogy. It works in my head.
Point is that an individual will see Sune as the epitome of beauty, regardless of what their definition of beauty is, because she's the goddess of all forms and definitions of beauty. Other people looking at her at the same time will each see their own ideals, because she's all of those things simultaneously. Everyone simply looks through their own filters, and perceives select pieces of the all-encompassing reality.
That's what I was trying to get at, anyway. Lots of different opinions here.  |
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Waltz Nemethor
Acolyte
Korea
5 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 06:09:47
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Hmmm, that's fascinating to me. I guess that is partly why she is a chaotic goddess. Because she IS beauty. And since definitions of beauty varies in the eyes of the beholder, she has to hold ALL of those definitions within her, even those that conflict with each other (skin color, hair color, shape of nose, etc).
But does she have a standard of beauty of her own? And will she violate that to conform to the sense of beauty of whoever she is interfacing with? For instance, while I don't believe this has been thoroughly explained, she abandoned Adon after he got a scar that disfigured his face. Could this be seen as her having a sort of standard for beauty? And if she were to appear before that theoretical 3rd man in my previous post, would she wear a scar so that she can perceive to be the thing that is beautiful to that man? Would she stand to violate her own standards to even be perceived as someone with a flaw so that she could be the epitome of beauty in that person's eyes?
I think the spectrum of light analogy is spot on. She lets the people perceive her as an embodiment of what a goddess of beauty should look like. But if that embodiment is against what she herself perceives as beautiful, would she allow it?
Anyway, I profusely apologize for derailing the focus from the initial topic everybody! Oh, and I started rereading Tymora's luck. They stopped her physical description after her hairstyle! No mention of how she looked which only piques my interest more. And apparently, Daramos appears in the book as well. It was a snippet but I apologize for the oversight. :) |
Thank you, Forgotten Realms. You have shaped my youthful mind as a youngster, helped me on the path of creativity as an adult, and is severely cutting into my thesis-writing as a grad student. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 14:12:06
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Again this is just my take on it, but I don't think Sune has personal standards of beauty or love, or passion -- the elements of her portfolio in 3e. As a goddess she embodies all of it.
I don't look at the Adon situation as her abandoning him. I think he felt no-longer-worthy; he effectively cut himself off from her. It's kinda like:
A certain boy likes a certain girl. She's better than him... so much better. She's the true essence of beauty, and he only feels confident and worthwhile when basking in her glow. When she notices him, he's alive; nothing else matters to him. Then something humiliating happens at school -- maybe he makes a stupid mistake or maybe someone else makes a mean joke about him; doesn't matter how it happens. He knows that she saw the event, or heard about it from her friends who no doubt added their own jokes at his expense. He now believes that she looks down on him, moreso than before, and it becomes much more difficult for him to talk to her. Maybe he avoids her.
Her thoughts and feelings don't even matter in that scenario. He doesn't know what she thinks. He's anticipated problems that might not even be there. I think it's a similar thing with Adon... he had a pretty glorified view of his own destiny, and of his significance in her eyes. Then he gets a scar, which makes him ugly and therefore unacceptable to her... in his eyes.
There's more to Sune than physical beauty. So much more. She is love; his love for her made him important to her. She is passion; when he showed passion in serving her interests, she noticed and appreciated that. The scar is irrelevant to her; passion makes someone beautiful to her.
He made his scar an insurmountable obstacle. So I don't think it was ever the case that she rejected him... I think that he rejected himself on her behalf, and that is what removed him from her good graces. She rejected his small opinion of her perception and judgment. Scars? Pft. They provide lessons to be learned in humility and humanity. When the lessons have been learned, the scars can be removed... she is, after all, a goddess.
Grow up, little Adon. Get over yourself. Experience the glory of passion (for life and everything it offers), and see that that is the ultimate beauty. Sune doesn't expect you to be perfect. She asks only that you be passionate, and nurture beauty where you find it. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 13 Mar 2015 14:13:57 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 15:37:38
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Hmm... I'm not so sure about Adon's loss of Sune being all his fault. If Sune does indeed represent ALL aspects of beauty, you have to embrace the paradox. A part of Sune is the shallow, youthful, obsession with physical beauty and the sometimes callous rejection of ugliness (as represented by scars or whatever people in society see as imperfections). Sune is also that goddess.
At the same time, she can be the goddess who concentrates more on the internal, the unseen understanding of beauty as deeper metaphor and life lessons.
Who is to say that one is more important than the other, or that Sune didn't in fact reject Adon precisely because of his scar and the inner ugly turmoil that followed? Ultimately, it may be that Adon only ever really had a tenuous connection with Sune because he couldn't find a way back to her through the "deeper stuff" (and that because he was very shallow, he may not have ever been able to understand Sune as anything other than a shallow goddess).
In the Realms, the gods are often shaped by mortal belief, sometimes being re-defined by it and even changing or modifying the faith because of those beliefs (see: Lathander and Amaunator). In Adon's case, that shallow "side" was all that he ever really saw or understood of Sune. And so that's what she literally was for him and why his growth (such as it was) demanded his own change to a different goddess who he could see as more complex and accepting.
Remember also that Adon was a priest, and no one either taught him or expanded upon Sune's "greater" philosophy. It may have been bad writing (I mean, it was the ToT novels). But it may also be the case that his sect, his church, only really ever knew Sune on the "shallow" end. I think we have to go with the latter - because if a mid-level priest hasn't been taught deeper mysteries and philosophies, then certainly the lay public is getting even less. (And the lay public vastly outnumbers the priesthood - so if the existence, nature and power of a god is determined by beliefs, well, it's the lay public's beliefs that matter more. The priesthood tries to correct, expand on, etc., but the truth is that they're only more correct insofar as they can spread that "correctness" in their worship rites).
So it may be paradoxical, but I think Sune is both that shallow goddess and also the goddess who understands and represents beauty on a deeper, metaphorical level.
The gods change, and are constantly changing, within each and every person who has faith in them. The entities themselves take what they can get, but are constantly shifting and changing, because faith and deeper understanding are dynamic and individual for every mortal.
Granted, they ARE entities and can provide sendings and even send avatars to influence mortal belief. But when they do, they're effectively doing something that can change their own nature (or skew belief more toward one public interpretation or another). So they don't do so very often. It's better to be hazy around the edges so that you attract more worship. Become too defined, and many mortals might drift to the worship of another.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 13 Mar 2015 15:51:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 15:55:40
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The thing with Adon happened during the Time of Troubles. He was already cut off from her, because priests only had a connection to their deities if they were in close proximity.
However, Adon was also rather vain, self-centered, and focused on the physical. When he was scarred, he saw himself as flawed, and couldn't understand why Sune "allowed" it to happen. She couldn't have prevented it, but he was too stuck on himself and wallowing in self-pity to see that.
So he turned away from her. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 16:05:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
However, Adon was also rather vain, self-centered, and focused on the physical. When he was scarred, he saw himself as flawed, and couldn't understand why Sune "allowed" it to happen. She couldn't have prevented it, but he was too stuck on himself and wallowing in self-pity to see that.
So he turned away from her.
True, but is that Adon's fault or is the fault of his mentors and teachers in the faith?
I don't remember the ToT novels in detail, but was Adon operating on the faith he was taught or did he reject some of the teachings he learned from higher priests in his church?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 17:11:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
However, Adon was also rather vain, self-centered, and focused on the physical. When he was scarred, he saw himself as flawed, and couldn't understand why Sune "allowed" it to happen. She couldn't have prevented it, but he was too stuck on himself and wallowing in self-pity to see that.
So he turned away from her.
True, but is that Adon's fault or is the fault of his mentors and teachers in the faith?
I don't remember the ToT novels in detail, but was Adon operating on the faith he was taught or did he reject some of the teachings he learned from higher priests in his church?
It's been a while since I read the books, so I honestly don't recall that. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 18:03:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Hmm... I'm not so sure about Adon's loss of Sune being all his fault. If Sune does indeed represent ALL aspects of beauty, you have to embrace the paradox. A part of Sune is the shallow, youthful, obsession with physical beauty and the sometimes callous rejection of ugliness (as represented by scars or whatever people in society see as imperfections). Sune is also that goddess.
Sure, she represents shallow vanity and narcissism too, but even if we list everything that's beautiful or a cause/product of passion and give equal weight to each item there are more deep things than superficial things. While outward aesthetics are important because they evoke beauty more immediately and reliably, I think that's as far as it goes... superficial things are of superficial importance. I think she has more complexity than a stereotypical cheerleader or strip club dancer.
Scars are only grounds for rejection when there is no inner beauty or passion to make the person appealing, or when those things are obstructed by the mortal's judgment/rejection of her, as was the case with Adon. Sune has elderly priestesses, and I'm sure those priestesses do everything they can to conceal their blemishes but the fact remains that they are there. Sune's vision isn't foiled by makeup; she knows what people actually look like. More precisely: applying makeup, no matter how skillfully, doesn't make anyone beautiful. She loves her priestesses for their passion and devotion, and she finds those things beautiful, to a degree that completely eclipses their physical imperfections. The same could have been true of Adon. He screwed it up, though, by making insulting assumptions about her.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Who is to say ... that Sune didn't in fact reject Adon precisely because of his scar and the inner ugly turmoil that followed?
Yes to the inner ugly turmoil. He's the one who made an issue out of the scar. (In my opinion.)
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Ultimately, it may be that Adon only ever really had a tenuous connection with Sune because he couldn't find a way back to her through the "deeper stuff" (and that because he was very shallow, he may not have ever been able to understand Sune as anything other than a shallow goddess).
Bingo, as they say. I think this is correct.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
In the Realms, the gods are often shaped by mortal belief, sometimes being re-defined by it and even changing or modifying the faith because of those beliefs (see: Lathander and Amaunator). In Adon's case, that shallow "side" was all that he ever really saw or understood of Sune. And so that's what she literally was for him and why his growth (such as it was) demanded his own change to a different goddess who he could see as more complex and accepting.
Interesting, but I think the difference between "she was shallow to him because he saw her as shallow" and "he saw her as shallow, and she was offended by that" might be semantic.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
But it may also be the case that his sect, his church, only really ever knew Sune on the "shallow" end.
Also interesting. I'm more inclined to say one man was shallow and perhaps misinterpreted the teachings of the church, rather than saying the whole church was at fault... but some clerics certainly would have played a part in educating him, and it's entirely possible that those clerics had faulty understandings of Sune.
Also: the shallow end of the doctrine may be emphasized first, with greater understanding coming later for those who pass their tests. Adon would have missed out on the later teachings because he was out saving the world with Midnight. His vanity and delusions of a great destiny could have made up some conclusions that he mistook as divine inspiration from Sune... ultimately leading him to a false understanding of the goddess.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
The gods change, and are constantly changing, within each and every person who has faith in them.
I don't have a comment for the rest of your post, but I like it!
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 18:49:13
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| In the Realms book Faces of Deception, wasn't the main character a Sune worshipper too ... and he was UGLY. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 21:02:55
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Sure, she represents shallow vanity and narcissism too, but even if we list everything that's beautiful or a cause/product of passion and give equal weight to each item there are more deep things than superficial things. While outward aesthetics are important because they evoke beauty more immediately and reliably, I think that's as far as it goes... superficial things are of superficial importance. I think she has more complexity than a stereotypical cheerleader or strip club dancer.
I absolutely agree, for sure. But part of what I'm thinking of here (and could be wrong) is that we have the advantage of knowing Sune better than probably any worshiper because we have the game manuals. :)
Maybe a high priest at the level of heirophant or cardinal (sorry, can't remember what is higher than a Heartwarder atm) would have the knowledge we have of Sune from the books. But mid-level priests, and perhaps most of the common lay worshipers, I imagine they get it in bits and pieces from sermons and individual conversations with higher priests.
So because in the Realms the gods are quite literally determined by the faith of mortals, there are a lot of simple beliefs about Sune. For the common farmer, and even for young priest Adon, it's possible that the overriding defining vision of Sune is one that's pretty simple and "not too deep". This isn't to say that the faith and beliefs of the High Priests aren't important, or that the entity Sune herself doesn't have that depth. But maybe mortals can only "see" or perceive a deity within their own limited understanding - it's defined for them, individually, and so that perception literally is as far as the deity can go with that person.
quote:
Scars are only grounds for rejection when there is no inner beauty or passion to make the person appealing, or when those things are obstructed by the mortal's judgment/rejection of her, as was the case with Adon. Sune has elderly priestesses, and I'm sure those priestesses do everything they can to conceal their blemishes but the fact remains that they are there.
Definitely agree - but right there, that belief that they need to "cover stuff up" to please the goddess (or others within the faith) also define the faith and therefore define Sune to some degree.
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Sune's vision isn't foiled by makeup; she knows what people actually look like. More precisely: applying makeup, no matter how skillfully, doesn't make anyone beautiful.
Oh, I don't know about that. Makeup can and does turn a 7 into a 10, so to speak. Otherwise we wouldn't need makeup artists for movies and TV, or in personal life. Or in fashion modeling, or airbrushing of models in magazines. ;)
quote:
She loves her priestesses for their passion and devotion, and she finds those things beautiful, to a degree that completely eclipses their physical imperfections. The same could have been true of Adon. He screwed it up, though, by making insulting assumptions about her.
Possibly. But perhaps not. I think it's hard to really know.
quote:
Yes to the inner ugly turmoil. He's the one who made an issue out of the scar. (In my opinion.)
Definitely Adon was the one feeling the turmoil, and he made the choices he made. But he was also doing so within the context of what he knew of Sune and the teachings of the faith. History and current context prompts people to make choices just as much as emotion and reason.
Adon's story, ultimately, is a pretty sad one, I think. He was kind of delusional and supremely vain as a child - I think somewhere it says he believed from 14 or 15 that Sune would literally take him as a consort. His vanity and attractiveness led him into the priesthood, but he never really got direct communication with any god or goddess until Mystra-Midnight ascended. And Sune wasn't really able to directly contact individual priests during the ToT, and may not have done so even if she hadn't been locked in a mortal form. So a lot of really bad things happened to him that shattered his (rather basic) understanding of Sune and the gods in general. Then the poor idiot was tricked into madness. Ultimately, Sune didn't rescue and cleanse his soul of madness - Kelemvor and Midnight did.
I think it's especially interesting because it explores that mortal-to-deity "contract" that Realms people have with the gods. Would Sune have ever come to his rescue if Kelemvor and Midnight hadn't? I think probably not. Although he was a mid-level priest of hers at one point, all of the circumstances of the ToT caused him to lose faith and even become faithless (during the madness).
The gods of the Realms just don't seem to have a whole lot of caring or compassion for mortal souls who "drift" or have bad circumstances (such as trickery, or magic) that cause them to break faith. Except perhaps Ilmater. Kelemvor and Midnight did, but I actually think they both had lingering compassion from being mortal and because he had been their friend in life.
quote:
Also: the shallow end of the doctrine may be emphasized first, with greater understanding coming later for those who pass their tests. Adon would have missed out on the later teachings because he was out saving the world with Midnight. His vanity and delusions of a great destiny could have made up some conclusions that he mistook as divine inspiration from Sune... ultimately leading him to a false understanding of the goddess.
I agree, but at the same time we have to remember that "false beliefs and understandings" of a Realms god/dess don't often result in any personal correction by the deity. Some deities often allow really weird beliefs to become heresy, which in turn divides the faith. Even good deities, like Lathander-Amaunator do this.
So the current understanding and belief by the unwashed lay majority (whether right or wrong) definitely can define or outright change the deity itself. If most laypeople and younger priests have an understanding of Sune as being fairly shallow - I think that's true for Sune, and not something she'd fault her believers for believing (if that makes sense).
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Waltz Nemethor
Acolyte
Korea
5 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2015 : 08:12:30
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More food for thought. Thanks for all the responses.
I was reading Sune's entry and her dogma states that "Beauty is more than skin deep. It issues from the core of one's being and reveals one's true face to the world, fair or foul." Doesn't this show that there is a standard somewhere, though? After all, if she can be everything to everyone, everything is permitted, and nothing is truly foul. The faith equates outward beauty as a reflection of inner beauty, and consequently, outward ugliness is a sign of some evil on the inside.
I looked into "Faces of Deception" in Amazon after Artemas mentioned it, but the reviews were a bit disappointing. |
Thank you, Forgotten Realms. You have shaped my youthful mind as a youngster, helped me on the path of creativity as an adult, and is severely cutting into my thesis-writing as a grad student. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2015 : 13:37:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Waltz Nemethor
I looked into "Faces of Deception" in Amazon after Artemas mentioned it, but the reviews were a bit disappointing.
Yeah it wasn't the best Realms book by far, but it does take the reader to some uncharted geographical areas which I always love. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Is Tymora physically unattractive?
