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Baptor
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Feb 2015 : 05:49:40
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Haha no seriously I think there's a curse on me, keeping me from really using or owning a 3e FRCS. I had one, way back in the day, and I sold it when 4e came out because as a group we collectively decided to stay with canon (a decision I regret, but whatever). A year before I heard about the Sundering, I tried to get another copy, and I did, but later found out it was stolen and returned it to its owner. Most recently I bought another off Ebay playing with the idea of doing a time warp only to get the most foul smelling book owned by a smoker (of apparently a very cheap and nasty brand to boot). I've tried several methods to get rid of the smell, but no luck. I'm pretty much convinced I'm supposed to move on to 5e.
Anyways...
I did take some time to look back through the 3e FRCS, and I did notice a severe flaw in it I hope is not repeated in the 5e book. While it is a wonderful tome of Realmslore, it's also very dated. Even in my 3.5 game back in the day, most of the information in it was out of date for us. I think they put too much emphasis on things like who exactly ruled what nation and what the geopolitical situation was in this nation at this exact moment in 1372 DR. It was fascinating when you first got it, but after you advanced the timeline a decade or so of gaming, it all quickly becomes obsolete.
While the 4e book was more general, we are seeing the same thing with it now. It's becoming obsolete due to the Sundering, though that may be forgiven considering the massive upheaval of the Sundering.
The same could also be said for "Forgotten Realms Adventures" which is sort of a "time of troubles" update to the setting as well.
If memory serves, the 1e and 2e didn't do much current events. It would tell you that this nation is Cormyr and its ruled by the Obaskar (sp) family and its a feudal monarchy but not the specific players and politics. Or maybe I'm being nostalgic and it didn't do that.
In any event, I hope the 5e is somewhat time neutral. Obviously its going to be set post-Spellplague, but I hope they don't get bogged down with telling me who exactly all the Dukes of Baldur's Gate are and so forth.
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Jesus said, "I am the Ressurection and the Life. Anyone who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and those who live and believe in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2015 : 09:57:25
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| 1 and 2e had the 'Current Clack' sections which had month-by-month goings on in certain parts of the world, so you could argue that it was worse for that kind of thing than the 3e FRCS was. I do not want to turn this thread into another edition war however so I'll cease there. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2015 : 13:42:38
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2E had the "Current Clack" section, but my impression was that it was all rumors. You weren't expected to make it all so in home play.
3E did do a lot of detail, but if your game doesn't start at the exact month and date that the Campaign Setting does, anything could have happened in the interlude.
If you're changing "canon" far back enough that, for example, King Azoun IV never lived, you're probably changing enough details that much of the published setting won't be that relevant anyway.
That said, if they did a 5e FRCS after the spirit of Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms, fairly edition neutral, but with tidbits of lore regarding specific periods, and, say, a free PDF of current clack to go with it, that would fit their current M.O. The Basic, what you have to have to run the adventure is free (The Basic Rules, the Monster Stats for an Adventure, PC variants and a few options to flavor the adventure) and if you want to delve deeper, buy the book. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2015 : 19:33:14
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| 1 & 2e both had Current Clack and many of the rumours ended up coming true. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2015 : 19:53:16
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Sure, but they weren't presented in a "this is going to happen" manner. It was presented as rumor. Whether it came true or not was tacitly left up to the DM.
I didn't mean to imply that the clack was largely false. Just that it was left open to interpretation.
I'm not trying to say 1/2e did things better than 3e in the long run.
As you point out, the rumors of 2e became largely true. In the 3e FRCS, some sections even had current events in regions. It just wasn't labeled "current clack."
I think (as someone looking back who didn't grow up with the Realms,) that it's possible that people got the impression - due to that format change - that the 3e presentation was more factual than rumor. I know I did.
In my opinion, keeping that uncertainty is key to making a successful 5e Setting Book. If you present something as rumor, something that may be just gossip, it's easier to tell the rules lawyers, "you investigate said rumor. It's just talk." Whereas presenting something in a more concrete way, you run into more problems.
Words mean things. Labeling something as rumor solves a lot of problems. If it becomes a largely unpopular rumour, you can ignore it as just rumor. But saying "X, Y, and Z are happening in B region, rumors are C is causing it," if X Y and Z are disliked by fans, you're holding the bag. If X Y and Z are just rumored to be happening, no worries. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2015 : 20:10:44
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| The clack in 1E (not sure about 2E) was presented with notes indicating which entries were going to see development in the future, and which were going to be left alone so DMs could run with them. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2015 : 22:38:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Sure, but they weren't presented in a "this is going to happen" manner. It was presented as rumor. Whether it came true or not was tacitly left up to the DM.
Actually, that's not true. People go on and on about RSEs like the Time of Troubles, the Spellplague, the Threat from the Sea etc. and forget that the Ol' Grey Box provided a mini-monthly timeline that showcased an Elven Retreat from the woodlands of Cormanthor, a Flight of Dragons that affected the whole Inner Sea region, an attempt by Lashan of Scardale to conquer the Dales and a war between the cities of the Moonsea.
From the get-go, the Realms has been a dynamic place where "things happen". Of course, TSR/WotC have run with that concept in ever more badly fleshed out and executed ways (and for that I blame the novel line but that's a discussion for another thread ...) but at its core, the Realms had always been like that.
So to get back to the OP's issue, the Realms can be difficult to "keep on top of". Personally, I think the secret is to start a campaign in a small place at any time point and try to get an understanding of the "big events" that are going on around there or in the Realms generally and what is then "coming up". Then you can guide the players and the campaign by setting up some more localised events and feeding them information and news as to what's going on.
I grant that for most campaigns, "guiding" the players is a bit like herding cats, but in a mature game where things like how much money the PCs have, where they live and who they owe and who owes them counts, then you can let them feel that they are part of a vibrant, living world. Remember, they don't have to play a role in everything that happens in the world and realistically shouldn't. Sometimes PCs have to share the limelight and watch the circus head down the road to somewhere ... else.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2015 : 00:05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Sure, but they weren't presented in a "this is going to happen" manner. It was presented as rumor. Whether it came true or not was tacitly left up to the DM.
Actually, that's not true. People go on and on about RSEs like the Time of Troubles, the Spellplague, the Threat from the Sea etc. and forget that the Ol' Grey Box provided a mini-monthly timeline that showcased an Elven Retreat from the woodlands of Cormanthor, a Flight of Dragons that affected the whole Inner Sea region, an attempt by Lashan of Scardale to conquer the Dales and a war between the cities of the Moonsea.
From the get-go, the Realms has been a dynamic place where "things happen". Of course, TSR/WotC have run with that concept in ever more badly fleshed out and executed ways (and for that I blame the novel line but that's a discussion for another thread ...) but at its core, the Realms had always been like that.
So to get back to the OP's issue, the Realms can be difficult to "keep on top of". Personally, I think the secret is to start a campaign in a small place at any time point and try to get an understanding of the "big events" that are going on around there or in the Realms generally and what is then "coming up". Then you can guide the players and the campaign by setting up some more localised events and feeding them information and news as to what's going on.
I grant that for most campaigns, "guiding" the players is a bit like herding cats, but in a mature game where things like how much money the PCs have, where they live and who they owe and who owes them counts, then you can let them feel that they are part of a vibrant, living world. Remember, they don't have to play a role in everything that happens in the world and realistically shouldn't. Sometimes PCs have to share the limelight and watch the circus head down the road to somewhere ... else.
-- George Krashos
I stand corrected. 
I do like the way you advise starting a campaign. I've tried to keep my campaigns loosely linked, where PC's actions in campaign 1 impact campaign 2 if the things they did would easily interact. (Case in point, the interaction of Orcus in my other thread.)
I seem to have stumbled across doing things the way you advise when I started DM'ing, keeping things local and letting the big events like RSE's and the current Tyranny of Dragons just happen in the background of the recent past.
It seems to have worked so far. 
Keeping on top of things, for me, has been a little stressful at times. I was in the middle of Azure Bonds when the Sundering was announced and my interest in the current Realms was rekindled.
Juggling staying on top of current lore and catching up on everything that's from the past became a bit of a chore.
I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly the OP means by obsolete, though. If the current Realms has progressed beyond the Campaign Setting, either by novels or sourcebooks, you have a nice little history book. Why is this a problem?
I'm not trying to say you're wrong for thinking that way, I just don't see it as a bum trip for running a game. Then again, I like history books. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Baptor
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2015 : 06:25:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Sure, but they weren't presented in a "this is going to happen" manner. It was presented as rumor. Whether it came true or not was tacitly left up to the DM.
Actually, that's not true. People go on and on about RSEs like the Time of Troubles, the Spellplague, the Threat from the Sea etc. and forget that the Ol' Grey Box provided a mini-monthly timeline that showcased an Elven Retreat from the woodlands of Cormanthor, a Flight of Dragons that affected the whole Inner Sea region, an attempt by Lashan of Scardale to conquer the Dales and a war between the cities of the Moonsea.
From the get-go, the Realms has been a dynamic place where "things happen". Of course, TSR/WotC have run with that concept in ever more badly fleshed out and executed ways (and for that I blame the novel line but that's a discussion for another thread ...) but at its core, the Realms had always been like that.
So to get back to the OP's issue, the Realms can be difficult to "keep on top of". Personally, I think the secret is to start a campaign in a small place at any time point and try to get an understanding of the "big events" that are going on around there or in the Realms generally and what is then "coming up". Then you can guide the players and the campaign by setting up some more localised events and feeding them information and news as to what's going on.
I grant that for most campaigns, "guiding" the players is a bit like herding cats, but in a mature game where things like how much money the PCs have, where they live and who they owe and who owes them counts, then you can let them feel that they are part of a vibrant, living world. Remember, they don't have to play a role in everything that happens in the world and realistically shouldn't. Sometimes PCs have to share the limelight and watch the circus head down the road to somewhere ... else.
-- George Krashos
I stand corrected.
I do like the way you advise starting a campaign. I've tried to keep my campaigns loosely linked, where PC's actions in campaign 1 impact campaign 2 if the things they did would easily interact. (Case in point, the interaction of Orcus in my other thread.)
I seem to have stumbled across doing things the way you advise when I started DM'ing, keeping things local and letting the big events like RSE's and the current Tyranny of Dragons just happen in the background of the recent past.
It seems to have worked so far.
Keeping on top of things, for me, has been a little stressful at times. I was in the middle of Azure Bonds when the Sundering was announced and my interest in the current Realms was rekindled.
Juggling staying on top of current lore and catching up on everything that's from the past became a bit of a chore.
I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly the OP means by obsolete, though. If the current Realms has progressed beyond the Campaign Setting, either by novels or sourcebooks, you have a nice little history book. Why is this a problem?
I'm not trying to say you're wrong for thinking that way, I just don't see it as a bum trip for running a game. Then again, I like history books.
Yeah sorry I think I've been a little misunderstood.
First, no edition warrior here. I think there are fascinating things about all the eras of the Realms out there, even 4th edition.
What I meant was that I hope the new book will focus less on specific time frames, like Ed's Elminster's FR book. For example, it might give a general description of Baldur's Gate, explain things that haven't changed much like the flaming fist and the dukes. It might say that the city grew after the Spellplague and gained a shanty town of refugees and so forth. But fail to do (IMO) silly things like give us the exact names and levels of the dukes. That way it becomes something of a timeless tome of basic knowledge of the Realms.
I think the older books make great history books and I have them all in storage, except for the 3e one which (as I mentioned) I think I've been cursed from ever owning again. LOL |
Jesus said, "I am the Ressurection and the Life. Anyone who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and those who live and believe in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" |
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The 3e Curse!
