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Inaubryn
Acolyte
40 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 06:01:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Just like the archmage Knellict in Road of the Patriarch, Draygo wouldn't be allowed to cast a spell. The illithids would just read his mind, sense him about to cast again, and shatter his concentration.
Which I still think is ridiculous for such a high level wizard or warlock. The illithids should be free to try and fail at his personal wards while he blasts them to dust.
Maybe(but unlikely) Knellict got lazy living safely in the citadell with no foes that might challenge him any moment (a pretty lazy assassins guild then BTW).
But a shade warlock living in the shadowfell? Every rival worth noticing would be a magic user to be reckoned with, donning a set of personal wards should be as natural as putting on his trousers.
I think this particular scene/event in this book is a microcosm of many of the novels. What I mean by that is most of the "villains" or characters who are supposed to be utterly badass wind up being utterly inept when it comes to battling the "heroes" (favored characters).
The Shadovars and Larloch come to mind. And, if the "villain" isn't utterly incompetent then they find themselves up against divine intervention from the god(s) of the "heroes". In the instances in which favored characters face off against one another, it always ends in a draw.
If a favored character does somehow manage to die, they are usually brought back to life. Actually, now that I'm thinking of it, villainy in Faerun is futile. You can't win. There are no conceivable ways to actually defeat the "heroes" and definitely no way to permanently kill them. No scheme, no matter how well orchestrated, no matter how long the planning, no matter how large the army, or how powerful the adversary, is ever good enough to win against favored characters. They are soundly defeated with not much loss to the favored character, not much change to the world and everything goes back to exactly how it was before.
Now, what I can't explain is why this is a negative to me as opposed to say a James Bond film. I mean, villains can't defeat Bond, right? Maybe I view Bond and similar stories in a better light because while the hero may not lose, they lose something (a spouse, a child, a friend, a way of life, etc.)and through this loss, they are changed. I just don't feel this happens in many FR novels (at least the ones I've read).
At the risk of droning on, I'll end this. But, am I being too harsh in my criticism of FR novels here? |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 06:27:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Inaubryn
I think this particular scene/event in this book is a microcosm of many of the novels. What I mean by that is most of the "villains" or characters who are supposed to be utterly badass wind up being utterly inept when it comes to battling the "heroes" (favored characters).
The Shadovars and Larloch come to mind. And, if the "villain" isn't utterly incompetent then they find themselves up against divine intervention from the god(s) of the "heroes". In the instances in which favored characters face off against one another, it always ends in a draw.
If a favored character does somehow manage to die, they are usually brought back to life. Actually, now that I'm thinking of it, villainy in Faerun is futile. You can't win. There are no conceivable ways to actually defeat the "heroes" and definitely no way to permanently kill them. No scheme, no matter how well orchestrated, no matter how long the planning, no matter how large the army, or how powerful the adversary, is ever good enough to win against favored characters. They are soundly defeated with not much loss to the favored character, not much change to the world and everything goes back to exactly how it was before.
Now, what I can't explain is why this is a negative to me as opposed to say a James Bond film. I mean, villains can't defeat Bond, right? Maybe I view Bond and similar stories in a better light because while the hero may not lose, they lose something (a spouse, a child, a friend, a way of life, etc.)and through this loss, they are changed. I just don't feel this happens in many FR novels (at least the ones I've read).
At the risk of droning on, I'll end this. But, am I being too harsh in my criticism of FR novels here?
I guess it's in keeping with a general policy of optimism (i.e. the good guys have to win). I agree to some extent that the Realms could do with some Game of Thrones-style bloodletting of favoured characters.
However, without getting too spoilery, I can think of quite a few examples of main characters losing friends/loved ones permanently (e.g. what happens to a couple of Drizzt's friends in The Orc King). And in The Herald, the good guys may win in the end, but not without loss (and for some of the 'good guys' the world is most definitely not the same again - when something v.large & heavy drops on them....) |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 15:23:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Inaubryn
Maybe I view Bond and similar stories in a better light because while the hero may not lose, they lose something (a spouse, a child, a friend, a way of life, etc.)and through this loss, they are changed. I just don't feel this happens in many FR novels (at least the ones I've read).
At the risk of droning on, I'll end this. But, am I being too harsh in my criticism of FR novels here?
Methinks you're overlooking a lot, here.
Drizzt lost both his innocence and his father (and best friend) in Menzoberranzan (Homeland).
He went from a fun-loving child to an untrusting lone wolf. This led to him cutting himself off from all civilization in ten years of self-imposed Exile.
When he finally reemerged from that unsatisfying near-solitary existence, desperate for some sort of speaking comrades, he learned that his past still haunted him and cursed those around him (Exile). So he fled from the Underdark to the World Above.
But his occasional interactions with others on the surface were all, ultimately, tragic (Sojourn).
So Drizzt had a helluvalotta baggage when he met the other Companions. Even as he met them and befriended them, he still lived alone on the other side of the mountain from them (The Crystal Shard). Why actually get close to anyone? Why let them be important to you? Why let them matter enough to you that their absence might cause you more pain?
Even as the young human woman Catti-brie began to develop feelings for him, he remained completely clueless that he could form such a bond with anyone (The Halfling's Gem). This lead to her becoming engaged to another man, Wulfgar, instead (The Halfling's Gem), The Legacy).
Even after belatedly moving in with the rest of the Companions within Mithral Hall, he rued ever having settled down, and feared that his past would continue to haunt him (The Legacy). It did (The Legacy, Starless Night, Siege of Darkness).
His protegé Wulfgar was abducted by a yochlol and presumed dead (The Legacy), but was actually tortured by a balor for six years (Siege of Darkness, Passage to Dawn, The Silent Blade). The traumatized, returned Wulfgar was never the same, essentially becoming walking wounded for the rest of his life ("Paths of Darkness", "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy", "Transitions", "To Legend He Goes").
Of course, Drizzt lost his best buddies Catti-brie, Regis, Bruenor, and Guenhwyvar, too (The Ghost King, Gauntlgrym).
While the Companions were absent from the Material Plane, Drizzt dallied around with substitute companions ("The Neverwinter Saga"). His tarted-up psycho girlfriend drugged him with her sex (Neverwinter, Charon's Claw), and then turned around and bashed his brains in when he refused to cease grieving for Catti-brie (The Last Threshold).
The fact that his true Companions eventually returned (The Companions) does not negate the pain of having lost them in the first place. If a surgeon reattaches one of your limbs, that does not undo the shock and pain of having felt that limb ripped off of your body to begin with.
I suppose if one were to only look at the novels as black text on white pages, as a collection of mere dry facts, then one could tabulate stuff and come to the conclusion that the heroes always come out ahead, with no ultimate loss. I guess.
But if one pays attention, and tries to show even the slightest bit of empathy with the characters, then one should be able to see that the heart and mind of these characters are deeply affected by what they have been through. The benefits of magic can undo some of the events, but they seldomly wipe memories of all past hurts and woes. The characters drag that stuff around with them for the rest of their days, unable to ever be completely free of it.
And that's real loss, in my book. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 15:34:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Inaubryn
I think this particular scene/event in this book is a microcosm of many of the novels. What I mean by that is most of the "villains" or characters who are supposed to be utterly badass wind up being utterly inept when it comes to battling the "heroes" (favored characters).
The Shadovars and Larloch come to mind. And, if the "villain" isn't utterly incompetent then they find themselves up against divine intervention from the god(s) of the "heroes". In the instances in which favored characters face off against one another, it always ends in a draw.
If a favored character does somehow manage to die, they are usually brought back to life. Actually, now that I'm thinking of it, villainy in Faerun is futile. You can't win. There are no conceivable ways to actually defeat the "heroes" and definitely no way to permanently kill them. No scheme, no matter how well orchestrated, no matter how long the planning, no matter how large the army, or how powerful the adversary, is ever good enough to win against favored characters. [...]
At the risk of droning on, I'll end this. But, am I being too harsh in my criticism of FR novels here?
Now, here, I tend to agree with you. Villains get nerfed to ensure the heroes get to shine. That's not necessarily a criticism, so much as a very good observation.
Perhaps WOTC still aims to avoid the unearned reputation that D&D had early on for wantonly glorifying all sorts of devils and demons and evil deeds? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 16:19:50
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Drizzt can't die - WotC couldn't make any money off him if he did. The other companions came back only because WotC pushed a decision that Salvatore didn't make on him and he was contractually obliged to run with it.
Sometimes the bad guys win. If Obould I hadn't been dealt with peacefully, I honestly believe that it would have been the end of Mithral Hall. Now it turns out that everyone believes the peace was actually a bad thing. What do we take from that?
In my opinion Dahlia is Salvatore's most inspired character to date. She is emotionally damaged in such a remarkable way you catch yourself wondering if her death wouldn't be the best thing for her. I'm wondering which way Salvatore will go in regard to recent developments with her. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 01:30:24
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| I tend to like damaged characters, characters that have had traumatic pasts. A lot of my characters are like that. But I do not like Dahlia, and I did not like what she brought to the story. I felt sorry for her at times, and what happened to her as a child was horrible, but it doesn't make me like her. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 02:06:41
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
In my opinion Dahlia is Salvatore's most inspired character to date. She is emotionally damaged in such a remarkable way you catch yourself wondering if her death wouldn't be the best thing for her. I'm wondering which way Salvatore will go in regard to recent developments with her.
I totally agree with this. She's a tragic, flawed character. I really like the way her relationship with Entreri was developing; much, much more interesting than Drizzt's relationship with her, and his relationship with Cat. Entreri comes across as much more empathetic than Drizzt IMHO.
I'm also interested in what will happen with Doum'wielle (To'sun's daughter). Her story arc looks like it has the potential to be pretty tragic too. |
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Rise of the King *spoilers*
