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Schreckstoff
Seeker
53 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 20:45:14
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Disclaimer: *Spoilers* if that wasn't obvious, continue at your own risk.
Here's my random thoughts.
They did, it happened and it was so very sad with Lorcan, so very sweet with Dahl and then so sad again at the end. Poor Farideh just can't catch a break.
Also why is it Farideh that did far more to save Suzail but it is Havilar who gets eternalized in paint, fortune favours the foolish?
Dahl finally back on his track to Oghma, though I still don't understand just how he's different in displaying text on his soul instead of his alignment and traits.
I had no idea Mehen is gay, my gaydar is simply nonfunctioning and I apparently completely missed Arjhani being male, /facepalm I know.
Really grew to like Dumuzin.
Raedra is just another amazing female character who grew a lot just in this book, I hope it's not the last we've seen of her and that she won't waste away on the throne.
Brin, I'm just not a fan of his. I still don't see his relationship to Havilar as more than a summer love and he treated her just horribly. They did break up for now but he got away rather scot free. He's free of his family, free of Constancia but always has the option to come back and Havi still has obvious feelings for him.
Havilar is just as fortunate, again she and Brin did break up but whenever Farideh gets desperate or messes up she has to suffer gruesome consequences while Havilar gets a slap on her fingers at best. She got a frickin resurrection at the price of a meager Imp.
Then there's Azuth, Ilstan is a poor and misguided fellow and Azuth might be crazy, trying to break free of or in cahoots with Asmodeus. What's makes me uncertain of this is The Gift Farideh received where 2 voices intertwined, we also don't know if it was a temporary or if Farideh is twice chosen now, thrice if we consider the possible divine intervention by Selune again.
Lorcan and Sairché being descendants of the Toril 13 came at quite the surprise but while I came to like Sairché more, Lorcan seems much less redeemable again. It looked like he could overcome some of his heritage in previous books but it seems all of that regressed under the pressure he was at.
That's all I can come up with from the top of my head. Kudos to Evans for writing just another amazing book, calmer this time but all the more character growth.
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Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2014 : 23:50:27
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There are so many things in this book that made me go "ahh". Like who Lorcan's daddy is.
It makes so much sense why he is so delicious.
I agree about Raedra. I really wanted to smack her at the beginning and by the end, she lived up to being related to Alusair.
And, I am fascinated by the Azuth/Asmodeus "thing".
:) so, I agree with much of your assessment. :) Now, if Erin can hurry up with Ashes of the Tyrant! |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 01:45:05
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It won't let me highlight the spoilers, if you posted any and then hid it. But I just finished the book, and I loved it.
I like that we get a glimpse into Mehen's relationships as well, and I think it'd be sweet if he got with a handsome dragonborn. Kallan, maybe.
I can't decide between Lorcan and Dahl. I love Lorcan, but he was a jerk in this book (moreso than usual). In the [i]Adversary{/i], I got the impression Lorcan might be falling for Fari, but in this one, he is clearly using her. Dahl grew on me, and by the end of the second book, when he gave her the rod, it was clear he liked her, and I can't say their relationship was unexpected, but it still came as a bit of surprise. It happened a little suddenly for me, but I can't complain too much. Farideh did seem to change a little. She experiences sex, and suddenly, she's just like Havi, a little lusty, but she was still Farideh. Dahl didn't strike me as the type to sleep with anyone, so again, it was a bit of a surprise, but still sweet. They are cute, but I still can't decide between Lorcan and Dahl.
The intrigue in this book is great. All that is going on in the Hells, and what the devil lords are up to. Now, it is clear Azuth is a part of Asmodeus, or trapped by him, at least. Ilstan's reactions and violence are a little confusing, if he is Azuth's Chosen, but then again, the Chosen of Azuth targeting the Chosen of Asmodeus makes sense.
Corymeans drive me nuts a lot of times, but Raedra grew on me. She was a strong female character who cared about her people, as a ruler should.
Zoonie is adorable, hellhound or not. I'm a dog lover, so she found her way into my heart easily.
All in all, a great book, and I can't wait for the next one! |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Schreckstoff
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 21:51:14
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
It won't let me highlight the spoilers, if you posted any and then hid it. But I just finished the book, and I loved it.
I like that we get a glimpse into Mehen's relationships as well, and I think it'd be sweet if he got with a handsome dragonborn. Kallan, maybe.
I can't decide between Lorcan and Dahl. I love Lorcan, but he was a jerk in this book (moreso than usual). In the [i]Adversary{/i], I got the impression Lorcan might be falling for Fari, but in this one, he is clearly using her. Dahl grew on me, and by the end of the second book, when he gave her the rod, it was clear he liked her, and I can't say their relationship was unexpected, but it still came as a bit of surprise. It happened a little suddenly for me, but I can't complain too much. Farideh did seem to change a little. She experiences sex, and suddenly, she's just like Havi, a little lusty, but she was still Farideh. Dahl didn't strike me as the type to sleep with anyone, so again, it was a bit of a surprise, but still sweet. They are cute, but I still can't decide between Lorcan and Dahl.
The intrigue in this book is great. All that is going on in the Hells, and what the devil lords are up to. Now, it is clear Azuth is a part of Asmodeus, or trapped by him, at least. Ilstan's reactions and violence are a little confusing, if he is Azuth's Chosen, but then again, the Chosen of Azuth targeting the Chosen of Asmodeus makes sense.
Corymeans drive me nuts a lot of times, but Raedra grew on me. She was a strong female character who cared about her people, as a ruler should.
Zoonie is adorable, hellhound or not. I'm a dog lover, so she found her way into my heart easily.
All in all, a great book, and I can't wait for the next one!
Oh the whole post was supposed to be spoilers I put the disclaimer up front since there was no room in the title and didn't feel like highlighting everything so I left room so no one accidentally read further and got spoiled.
I used to be on Lorcan's side as Dahl was too much of a tsundere but with this book Lorcan just burnt too many bridges. Farideh now also seems to have realized that she ought to keep it strictly business with him.
Their getting together and immediately sleeping with each other didn't come as that much a surprise as both now had previous relationships and it had been a long time coming not to mention that there was a lot of sexual tension between them.
It seems Ilstan is simply being caught up in the madness of Azuth, which makes it all the more weird he didn't notice in his moment of clarity, all in all the whole plot with Ilstan felt a bit forced.
Zoonie is awesome but I guess this is just part 1 of Havilar's awakening since she seemed more imposing in Farideh's visions and it doesn't compare much to Fari's soul sight and angel of dread powers. |
Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 23:24:59
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On the whole, I thought this was a good novel. It seemed long, verbose, not as action-filled, but that is fine given that a lot of character development was going on.
I'm not fond at all of this idea that someone can be a Chosen without some kind of agreement by the mortal. Not just because I liked War Wizard Ilstan, but because it removes free will from the equation. It's one thing if a "gift" of godly powers is wanted and welcome, and agreed to after the god does the "choosing" part, but to have such powers randomly placed on someone without their agreement really interferes with the idea that gods shouldn't take away free will from people. I'm hoping that this is a literary aberration - possibly because of the wrapping up of the Spellplague/Sundering business. Gods in the Realms should not have a massive influence over a mortal's life (or their soul) without a mortal's willing agreement.
I liked that Lorcan was finally starting to act like a devil-spawn rather than seeming puppyish and head-over-heels. I liked that Dahl has changed and is starting his journey back to Oghma. Farideh always seems too forgiving of Lorcan, though, even after all of the events of this novel. And in comparison with Lorcan, Farideh seems far to willing and ready to judge Dahl over much less. In other words, Lorcan treats her terribly and she's aware of it, but he gets a pass every time - where Dahl never gets a break because Farideh keeps misjudging him despite apologies and heartfelt explanations.
I can't decide if I like Raedra or not. When it comes to royalty and nobility in Cormyr, I'm not sure I really care if any of them die. I'm not sure if I'd care whether or not Cormyr fell, given the way it's always presented. And the royal family here just seemed filled with flaws and not much honor or decisiveness. If I were ghost-Alusair, I'd also be constantly frowning at Raedra.
These aren't complaints against Evans' writing, by the way. She's a great character-driven author. But I think certain plot requirements and outcomes (due to the Sundering) probably pulled this novel down a bit for me.
I'm looking forward to her next novel with Farideh, even though I deeply dislike all of this Sundering and post-Sundering business.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Schreckstoff
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 04:42:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
I'm not fond at all of this idea that someone can be a Chosen without some kind of agreement by the mortal. Not just because I liked War Wizard Ilstan, but because it removes free will from the equation. It's one thing if a "gift" of godly powers is wanted and welcome, and agreed to after the god does the "choosing" part, but to have such powers randomly placed on someone without their agreement really interferes with the idea that gods shouldn't take away free will from people. I'm hoping that this is a literary aberration - possibly because of the wrapping up of the Spellplague/Sundering business. Gods in the Realms should not have a massive influence over a mortal's life (or their soul) without a mortal's willing agreement
I only read the first 3 Sundering novels so I'm not an expert but chosen seemed to be either the most faithful, the most resourceful or the ones whose ideals aligned most with their God/Goddess.
I'm not certain Farideh is truly a chosen of Asmodeus since he doesn't really have plans for her, Farideh can't see a marking on her nor on Havilar's soul and there's the seldom divine intervention by Selune. For all we know Asmodeus really only wants to keep her safe from Bryseis Kakistos and Farideh herself was the one who came to that conjecture we never really got confirmation of any kind.
I don't get the chosen system at all sometimes. For instance Drizzt boon is supposed to be the companions of the hall but it is Cattie-Brie who's spell scarred by Mielikki and Mystra and who conversed directly with Mielikki. Which leads to Drizzt, who supposedly is Mielikki's chosen, doubting his belief due to the words Mielikki conveyed to Cattie-Brie.
Also Lolth was also vying to make Drizzt her chosen but Mielikki won in the end implying it was his will that made the difference.
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 19:20:56
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Really loved the book. However I still don't fully get why Cormyr was doing so badly in this war as opposed to their previous wars.
Also I really thought that Havilar was pregnant when she mentioned her breasts getting bigger while trying on the new dress and later Farideh wondering why Havilar's bodice won't fit her.
However if they really spend months in the wilderness tracking down the crown prince / king that would have been noticed. Also Fari and Havi seem keep track of their periods, Havi would have notived that too |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 21:49:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Really loved the book. However I still don't fully get why Cormyr was doing so badly in this war as opposed to their previous wars.
Also I really thought that Havilar was pregnant when she mentioned her breasts getting bigger while trying on the new dress and later Farideh wondering why Havilar's bodice won't fit her.
However if they really spend months in the wilderness tracking down the crown prince / king that would have been noticed. Also Fari and Havi seem keep track of their periods, Havi would have notived that too
Related to this, why was the Netheril-Sembia army so strong, given that they were not only fighting Cormyr but also the Elves and the Dalesmen? Not to mention the Northlands?
Returned Netheril was what, two flying cities and a subsumed Sembia. Did they really gain that much military power in 100 years? Also, Telamont Tanthul never struck me as someone dumb enough to fight a multi-front war.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 22:00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Schreckstoff
I only read the first 3 Sundering novels so I'm not an expert but chosen seemed to be either the most faithful, the most resourceful or the ones whose ideals aligned most with their God/Goddess.
I'm not certain Farideh is truly a chosen of Asmodeus since he doesn't really have plans for her, Farideh can't see a marking on her nor on Havilar's soul and there's the seldom divine intervention by Selune. For all we know Asmodeus really only wants to keep her safe from Bryseis Kakistos and Farideh herself was the one who came to that conjecture we never really got confirmation of any kind.
I don't get the chosen system at all sometimes. For instance Drizzt boon is supposed to be the companions of the hall but it is Cattie-Brie who's spell scarred by Mielikki and Mystra and who conversed directly with Mielikki. Which leads to Drizzt, who supposedly is Mielikki's chosen, doubting his belief due to the words Mielikki conveyed to Cattie-Brie.
Also Lolth was also vying to make Drizzt her chosen but Mielikki won in the end implying it was his will that made the difference.
I agree, I don't understand the Chosen "system" anymore either, not that it was that good of a system in the first place. It really was just a means by which authors could have weird, unique powers for their characters, and then turned into a way for Monty Haul DMs to reward players with overpowered abilities.
I'm thinking along the same lines when it comes to Farideh as well. I'm really not sure if she is a Chosen of Asmodeus after all, because she can't read herself. I'd bet that she is actually a Chosen of Azuth herself, but is "hard to read" due to the fragmented soul of Bryseis who WAS a Chosen of Asmodeus - and because Asmodeus is siphoning off Azuth in some way, Farideh falls under Asmodeus's "winnings" so to speak. Azuth, with his fragmented deity-mind, can reach out to choose people as Chosen, due to the changing cosmic rules of the Sundering - and I'd bet money he did so with both Farideh and War Wizard Ilstan.
And neither Farideh nor Ilstan can get clear sendings or visions from Azuth, because Asmodeus can currently warp them to his own goals. It's Azuth that wants Farideh to stay alive, so that he can perhaps escape Asmodeus eventually.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 23:39:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Really loved the book. However I still don't fully get why Cormyr was doing so badly in this war as opposed to their previous wars.
Also I really thought that Havilar was pregnant when she mentioned her breasts getting bigger while trying on the new dress and later Farideh wondering why Havilar's bodice won't fit her.
However if they really spend months in the wilderness tracking down the crown prince / king that would have been noticed. Also Fari and Havi seem keep track of their periods, Havi would have notived that too
Related to this, why was the Netheril-Sembia army so strong, given that they were not only fighting Cormyr but also the Elves and the Dalesmen? Not to mention the Northlands?
Returned Netheril was what, two flying cities and a subsumed Sembia. Did they really gain that much military power in 100 years? Also, Telamont Tanthul never struck me as someone dumb enough to fight a multi-front war.
They hired hordes of mercenaries from many places to help them orchestrate their wars. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2014 : 00:57:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Really loved the book. However I still don't fully get why Cormyr was doing so badly in this war as opposed to their previous wars.
Also I really thought that Havilar was pregnant when she mentioned her breasts getting bigger while trying on the new dress and later Farideh wondering why Havilar's bodice won't fit her.
However if they really spend months in the wilderness tracking down the crown prince / king that would have been noticed. Also Fari and Havi seem keep track of their periods, Havi would have notived that too
Related to this, why was the Netheril-Sembia army so strong, given that they were not only fighting Cormyr but also the Elves and the Dalesmen? Not to mention the Northlands?
Returned Netheril was what, two flying cities and a subsumed Sembia. Did they really gain that much military power in 100 years? Also, Telamont Tanthul never struck me as someone dumb enough to fight a multi-front war.
They hired hordes of mercenaries from many places to help them orchestrate their wars.
That's quite a lot of mercenaries, with all the different fronts they were fighting on.
But I suppose with all those mercenaries dead or scattered after the wars, there will be a LOT of jobs for adventurers to do all over the Realms.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2014 : 01:40:00
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Yeah, I'd expect monster populations might explode from all the "food" laying around and brigand types to be pretty thick for a while. Undead might be another issue too maybe.
Lots of jobs for adventurers indeed. |
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Schreckstoff
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2014 : 18:08:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Schreckstoff
I only read the first 3 Sundering novels so I'm not an expert but chosen seemed to be either the most faithful, the most resourceful or the ones whose ideals aligned most with their God/Goddess.
I'm not certain Farideh is truly a chosen of Asmodeus since he doesn't really have plans for her, Farideh can't see a marking on her nor on Havilar's soul and there's the seldom divine intervention by Selune. For all we know Asmodeus really only wants to keep her safe from Bryseis Kakistos and Farideh herself was the one who came to that conjecture we never really got confirmation of any kind.
I don't get the chosen system at all sometimes. For instance Drizzt boon is supposed to be the companions of the hall but it is Cattie-Brie who's spell scarred by Mielikki and Mystra and who conversed directly with Mielikki. Which leads to Drizzt, who supposedly is Mielikki's chosen, doubting his belief due to the words Mielikki conveyed to Cattie-Brie.
Also Lolth was also vying to make Drizzt her chosen but Mielikki won in the end implying it was his will that made the difference.
I agree, I don't understand the Chosen "system" anymore either, not that it was that good of a system in the first place. It really was just a means by which authors could have weird, unique powers for their characters, and then turned into a way for Monty Haul DMs to reward players with overpowered abilities.
I'm thinking along the same lines when it comes to Farideh as well. I'm really not sure if she is a Chosen of Asmodeus after all, because she can't read herself. I'd bet that she is actually a Chosen of Azuth herself, but is "hard to read" due to the fragmented soul of Bryseis who WAS a Chosen of Asmodeus - and because Asmodeus is siphoning off Azuth in some way, Farideh falls under Asmodeus's "winnings" so to speak. Azuth, with his fragmented deity-mind, can reach out to choose people as Chosen, due to the changing cosmic rules of the Sundering - and I'd bet money he did so with both Farideh and War Wizard Ilstan.
And neither Farideh nor Ilstan can get clear sendings or visions from Azuth, because Asmodeus can currently warp them to his own goals. It's Azuth that wants Farideh to stay alive, so that he can perhaps escape Asmodeus eventually.
I'm not sure about that, Farideh is too cynical of deities to be chosen by anyone and Azuth makes his chosen go crazy.
Azuth is a lower deity and vasal of mystra while Farideh never showed a particular interest in becoming a mage.
Farideh is also rather idealistic and goodly, despite the whole being a Warlock thingy, so my bet would be on her being maybe a sleeping chosen of Selune like Dahl possibly is of Oghma and only because every protagonist of Sundering novels is a chosen.
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Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check |
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2014 : 18:47:04
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Hi guys,
I'm going to stay out of the discussion this time, since last time it didn't go great, but if you have questions, I'm participating in the Sundered Book Club on Goodreads. Here's the "I finished the book" thread: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2046367-fire-in-the-blood---for-those-of-you-who-couldn-t-put-it-down
The group is also reading 3 or so chapters a week and discussing them in depth in individual threads. NO SPOILERS there.
As for the Chosen discussion: the basic answer to what's up with Farideh and Havilar is discoverable between Fire in the Blood and The Adversary (particularly the epilogue).
Best,
Erin |
www.slushlush.com |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 22:27:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Really loved the book. However I still don't fully get why Cormyr was doing so badly in this war as opposed to their previous wars.
Also I really thought that Havilar was pregnant when she mentioned her breasts getting bigger while trying on the new dress and later Farideh wondering why Havilar's bodice won't fit her.
However if they really spend months in the wilderness tracking down the crown prince / king that would have been noticed. Also Fari and Havi seem keep track of their periods, Havi would have notived that too
Related to this, why was the Netheril-Sembia army so strong, given that they were not only fighting Cormyr but also the Elves and the Dalesmen? Not to mention the Northlands?
Returned Netheril was what, two flying cities and a subsumed Sembia. Did they really gain that much military power in 100 years? Also, Telamont Tanthul never struck me as someone dumb enough to fight a multi-front war.
Sembia had a population of several million and 100 years for the Shadovar to get it forged into a military.
Hitler inherited a weak military and economically crippled nation held to the treaty of Versailles and managed to start world war 2 in less than 10 years and make it last years on multiple fronts. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2014 : 15:52:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Sembia had a population of several million and 100 years for the Shadovar to get it forged into a military.
Hitler inherited a weak military and economically crippled nation held to the treaty of Versailles and managed to start world war 2 in less than 10 years and make it last years on multiple fronts.
Well, yes, Netheril did have Sembia as a "vassal state" for 100 years and a fairly large population back in the day. But I think it's perhaps a bit more complicated than a Godwin's Law comparison.
Sembia wasn't completely controlled, or even all that happy to be a vassal state. If I recall, Daerlun and Urmlaspyr were independent and not under Netherese control, Yhaunn was devastated and rebuilt, Ordulin was totally obliterated, and Saerloon was not politically stable. Selgaunt was completely controlled, and rule over the smaller towns and villages centered from there.
Netheril also imposed heavy taxation on all trade, which almost certainly would have felt like an oppressive yoke to the upper class. I don't get the feeling that Sembia was happy or even necessarily loyal as a vassal state, and if your base population isn't happy they're not generally going to make for loyal, committed army troops.
Fighting on multiple fronts only seems to make any sense in this situation if they hired a massive number of mercenaries (which was noted above in another post). If Netheril was bleeding the population of Sembia for that cash, that explains how the mercenaries were paid. But even so, I'd think that much of the Sembian population would be growing tired of their oppressors rather than being a willing part in a multi-front war.
Perhaps Telamont wasn't as smart as people gave him credit for being. And maybe he was somewhat blind to Sembian discontent - at least, until it grew out of control as it did with Daerlun and Urmlaspyr who both threw off their yokes. It's interesting that I don't recall reading much about the current status of those two cities, especially when they were closest to the Cormyrean front. Did they remain neutral, or did they assist Cormyr?
And now that Shade has crashed into Myth Drannor (and the other flying city was destroyed earlier), will the remnants of Netheril's nobles run back to Selgaunt and try to hold onto their power over Sembia? How would the "Lord Governor" react? Seems like a perfect time for Sembia to become free again, or at least break into smaller independent states.
Not sure we'll know the answers to any of this soon, but it's interesting to speculate.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 03 Nov 2014 15:58:44 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2014 : 18:09:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Sembia had a population of several million and 100 years for the Shadovar to get it forged into a military.
As had Cormyr. And Cormyr and Sembia/Netheril have clashed several times during this 100 years and any time it was either a draw or even Cormyr threatening to take all of Sembia (it became "imperial" due to the huge gains in the different wars against Sembia/Netheril).
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Hitler inherited a weak military and economically crippled nation held to the treaty of Versailles and managed to start world war 2 in less than 10 years and make it last years on multiple fronts.
And we know how Germany did it and such an explanation is what I would like to see for the recent war in Cormyr.
Cormyr had a strong and capable army. Why was the army of the purple dragon easily held in check in Sembia? Why did a shade army, neither as strong or terrible as feared, managed to take Marsember (which as the home port of the cormyrean navy should be especially hard to take)?
What were the huge errors that Cormyr made that suddenly turned the war so badly against them? Why was Arabel able to hold and not Marsember? Where did Shade/Sembia suddenly get the troops they could not get in the prior wars (when they were already desperately needed)?
As far as informing about the greater state of things goes, this novels follows the rest of the Sundering novels in teasing and hinting but never telling.
It's telling a great and compelling story on a personal level of the protagonists, but not much about the how&why of Cormyr's current state
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2014 : 21:28:51
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I won't be buying it. So few of the realms authors capture me now. I'm glad the rest of you like it though.
As an aside....does anyone else think that Erin is kinda hot? |
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Schreckstoff
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2014 : 09:08:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
And we know how Germany did it and such an explanation is what I would like to see for the recent war in Cormyr.
Cormyr had a strong and capable army. Why was the army of the purple dragon easily held in check in Sembia? Why did a shade army, neither as strong or terrible as feared, managed to take Marsember (which as the home port of the cormyrean navy should be especially hard to take)?
What were the huge errors that Cormyr made that suddenly turned the war so badly against them? Why was Arabel able to hold and not Marsember? Where did Shade/Sembia suddenly get the troops they could not get in the prior wars (when they were already desperately needed)?
As far as informing about the greater state of things goes, this novels follows the rest of the Sundering novels in teasing and hinting but never telling.
It's telling a great and compelling story on a personal level of the protagonists, but not much about the how&why of Cormyr's current state
Wasn't it a case of fighting on too many fronts, while reading the book it seemed to me as if cormyr's main force was simply engaged in static warfare on one front while the cities made due with minimum garrisons.
Netheril also seems to be a power where indivuduals can act by themselves and amass forces for their personal use. So if a new player entered the battle and went behind the established lines it can be devastating. |
Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2014 : 08:27:03
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Just finished last night. The relationship drama in this book made it difficult for me to follow. I found myself skimming a lot of pages to get past this stuff. The middle of the story is the strongest and I really enjoyed the scene with Tiamat. The ending left me completely unsatisfied story-wise, but I felt it was well written.
My take aways:
-I really don't care about Cormyr.
-There are too many relationship arcs going on. I know the Brin/Havi relationship was key to the progression of events as written, but Ms. Evans could have gotten there without that drama. The Faridah/Lorcan/ relashipship is much more interesting since it involves much deeper layers and possibilities. It's much more relateable. No one is relating to spoiled nobles who only marry for status and power.
-I was surprised that there was no mention of Elminster, Mirt, Vangy, or Storm in these novels. They are pretty important players and it's surprising that they wouldn't have played a part in this story even on the periphery.
-We need either more novels released or for longer story's in the 3-4 books released each year. It seems that they are still on a strict word count. |
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 03:51:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
I'm not fond at all of this idea that someone can be a Chosen without some kind of agreement by the mortal. Not just because I liked War Wizard Ilstan, but because it removes free will from the equation.
Wouldn't an unwilling Chosen be a pretty lousy Chosen? God be all like "Hey, go do this thing" and the Chosen's all like "Geez, get off my back, man." |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 04:10:58
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| I admit to not having read the entirety of this scroll, but Cale was a smewhat unwilling Chosen of Mask. Even went so far as to stab him. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 25 Dec 2014 04:11:55 |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 05:00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
As an aside....does anyone else think that Erin is kinda hot?
Erm.....isn't that a bit of an odd/crass thing to write, seeing as she's no doubt reading this scroll? (and has already posted in it). |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 05:06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by BenN
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
As an aside....does anyone else think that Erin is kinda hot?
Erm.....isn't that a bit of an odd/crass thing to write, seeing as she's no doubt reading this scroll? (and has already posted in it).
I missed this at first, but yeah...you can't say you won't be buying the author's work, and then say the author is hot.
@Caolin: I actually liked the way Erin wove the relationships into the story. I still think Dahl and Fari got together a little fast, but I thought she did a good job of balancing relationships with the action and bigger events going on in the story. Fari and Havi are Chosen, and have a lot of responsibilities, but they are also young women. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 05:22:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
-I was surprised that there was no mention of Elminster, Mirt, Vangy, or Storm in these novels. They are pretty important players and it's surprising that they wouldn't have played a part in this story even on the periphery.
To be fair, there is precedent for this in previous novels. The Simbul doesn't even get a mention in the Thay novels despite being the ruler of the nation Thay hates the most. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 17:30:45
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
@Caolin: I actually liked the way Erin wove the relationships into the story. I still think Dahl and Fari got together a little fast, but I thought she did a good job of balancing relationships with the action and bigger events going on in the story. Fari and Havi are Chosen, and have a lot of responsibilities, but they are also young women.
Don't get me wrong, Erin is a great story teller and writer. But it's very hard to pen a story that will capture all of your readers. For me, I found myself skimming through most of these parts of the book and I didn't feel like I missed anything major.
Honestly though I'm VERY tired of warlocks and tieflings. They've become the new Drow/Ranger of DnD. Every week at the Encounters game table several people show up with a warlock/tiefling character. I'm constantly in a party with at least 2-3 warlocks. Can't one of these tieflings be a cleric or at least a druid?!.....OK, I went off on a bit of a tangent there.  |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 17:32:10
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
-I was surprised that there was no mention of Elminster, Mirt, Vangy, or Storm in these novels. They are pretty important players and it's surprising that they wouldn't have played a part in this story even on the periphery.
To be fair, there is precedent for this in previous novels. The Simbul doesn't even get a mention in the Thay novels despite being the ruler of the nation Thay hates the most.
Yeah, but in the Elminster novels they were in the thick of the happenings in Cormyr. I mean, at the very least we should have run into Mirt seeing that he's been setting up new Harper networks. |
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2014 : 05:50:29
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
-I was surprised that there was no mention of Elminster, Mirt, Vangy, or Storm in these novels. They are pretty important players and it's surprising that they wouldn't have played a part in this story even on the periphery.
To be fair, there is precedent for this in previous novels. The Simbul doesn't even get a mention in the Thay novels despite being the ruler of the nation Thay hates the most.
Yeah, I'm going to pop in here.
* Elminster and Storm are not in Cormyr at this time. I checked. I originally wanted to broach the idea of an Elminster cameo at the end, instead of the Alusair one, but El's got better stuff to do--like fixing the Weave.
* Vangey is still a spider-thing at this point, IIRC. Also there's this line: "Battles just as fierce raged in the tunnels and the sewers, the war wizards proving their value to the realm over and over—not to mention the stranger things that lurked below. Raedra found herself more than once, when confronted with reports of neatly dispatched Shadovar that no force below could claim, thinking of the scowling ghost in the Royal Court and what she might still do for her kingdom." I made that intentionally vague enough to potentially cover Vangerdahast.
* Mirt is arranging Harpers who aren't running under the same network as Dahl and Vescaras. At this point, the two groups are operating separately, possibly eyeing each other (I think the Harpers operating out of Everlund and Waterdeep are eyeing the Dalelands/Cormyrean Harpers anyway). There's no reason they should interact. They literally don't know each other beyond the possblity of reading a name in a report
But ultimately? Those aren't my characters. I don't want to write about them. I don't think my readers really want me to write about them. I doubt Ed really wants me to write with them. . But look: there's nothing to say, for example, Mirt's not doing things in the background, separate from this. It's a big city and a big war. Or Vangey--maybe Vangey's off thwarting something else. Another bit of treachery. Ask Ed for that story. It's not mine to tell.
(I can go on about why I think it would have been a mistake, but there's the purely objective bits.)
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
We need either more novels released or for longer story's in the 3-4 books released each year. It seems that they are still on a strict word count.
This book is literally one of the three longest novels ever published in the Forgotten Realms. |
www.slushlush.com |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2014 : 07:42:42
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quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
Yeah, I'm going to pop in here.
* Elminster and Storm are not in Cormyr at this time. I checked. I originally wanted to broach the idea of an Elminster cameo at the end, instead of the Alusair one, but El's got better stuff to do--like fixing the Weave.
* Vangey is still a spider-thing at this point, IIRC. Also there's this line: "Battles just as fierce raged in the tunnels and the sewers, the war wizards proving their value to the realm over and over—not to mention the stranger things that lurked below. Raedra found herself more than once, when confronted with reports of neatly dispatched Shadovar that no force below could claim, thinking of the scowling ghost in the Royal Court and what she might still do for her kingdom." I made that intentionally vague enough to potentially cover Vangerdahast.
* Mirt is arranging Harpers who aren't running under the same network as Dahl and Vescaras. At this point, the two groups are operating separately, possibly eyeing each other (I think the Harpers operating out of Everlund and Waterdeep are eyeing the Dalelands/Cormyrean Harpers anyway). There's no reason they should interact. They literally don't know each other beyond the possblity of reading a name in a report
But ultimately? Those aren't my characters. I don't want to write about them. I don't think my readers really want me to write about them. I doubt Ed really wants me to write with them. . But look: there's nothing to say, for example, Mirt's not doing things in the background, separate from this. It's a big city and a big war. Or Vangey--maybe Vangey's off thwarting something else. Another bit of treachery. Ask Ed for that story. It's not mine to tell.
(I can go on about why I think it would have been a mistake, but there's the purely objective bits.)
This book is literally one of the three longest novels ever published in the Forgotten Realms.
Yes! I drew you out. It's a Festivus miracle. 
So to the first point. Thanks for spelling this out for me. I failed to notice two things. The time frame of events and I forgot that Alusair made a cameo. I'm not trying to be a fact checking police. I was merely commenting on the thoughts in my head as I read the book. As for you writing other peoples characters. I see no reason why you couldn't take another character out for a short stroll. Personally I think you could provide some fresh and interesting angles on some old characters....within limits of course.
As to the book length, I find it hard to judge this because I read so slowly. And maybe I've been conditioned looong novels by the Song of Ice and Fire books. Those are beasts comparatively.
BTW, thanks for engaging. I hope you don't take anything we say here too personally. For me it's a way of engaging in discussion with people since no one in my personal life shares an interest in these novels. I also really enjoy your work and I've enjoyed every novel you written in the Realms. I think you do the Harpers really well and would love to see you do a more Harper focused story in the future. Maybe a reborn Harpers series!!! I know....a man can dream though can't he? |
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2014 : 21:06:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
Personally I think you could provide some fresh and interesting angles on some old characters....within limits of course.
To be perfectly frank, I don't want those limits. I'm deeply uncomfortable with the idea of picking up a character as well-developed as those. There's no winning. You take them in too new a direction and everyone hates it because they've already fallen in love with those characters as they were. You take them in not-a-new-enough direction and they're dictating what your story can and can't be just by living in it. You're writing a novelization of sorts, and that is just not where my interests lie.
quote:
BTW, thanks for engaging. I hope you don't take anything we say here too personally. For me it's a way of engaging in discussion with people since no one in my personal life shares an interest in these novels. I also really enjoy your work and I've enjoyed every novel you written in the Realms. I think you do the Harpers really well and would love to see you do a more Harper focused story in the future. Maybe a reborn Harpers series!!! I know....a man can dream though can't he?
I don't take it personally that someone doesn't like my book(s). I also don't really think it's my business, when you get down to it, hence my leaving that part aside. I write 1) what I want to write and 2) what WotC agrees to let me write, (2a. what makes Ed say "I LIKE it!" when I get a chance to tell him and 2b. What keeps selling books). You're right, I'm not going to make everyone happy with every book. I'm sorry it didn't float your boat. I'd say I hope the next one will, but I won't be insulted if you don't like it either. (I might be confused why you picked it up, but hey, it's your time and your money!)
Fair warning all: I'm going to keep writing about these characters for the last two books. There will still be Asmodean tieflings and warlocks and young women and people who think about their internal emotional states and their relationships with other people. There will also be dragonborn and fiends. You have been warned. |
www.slushlush.com |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2014 : 21:39:11
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quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
Personally I think you could provide some fresh and interesting angles on some old characters....within limits of course.
To be perfectly frank, I don't want those limits. I'm deeply uncomfortable with the idea of picking up a character as well-developed as those. There's no winning. You take them in too new a direction and everyone hates it because they've already fallen in love with those characters as they were. You take them in not-a-new-enough direction and they're dictating what your story can and can't be just by living in it. You're writing a novelization of sorts, and that is just not where my interests lie.
quote:
BTW, thanks for engaging. I hope you don't take anything we say here too personally. For me it's a way of engaging in discussion with people since no one in my personal life shares an interest in these novels. I also really enjoy your work and I've enjoyed every novel you written in the Realms. I think you do the Harpers really well and would love to see you do a more Harper focused story in the future. Maybe a reborn Harpers series!!! I know....a man can dream though can't he?
I don't take it personally that someone doesn't like my book(s). I also don't really think it's my business, when you get down to it, hence my leaving that part aside. I write 1) what I want to write and 2) what WotC agrees to let me write, (2a. what makes Ed say "I LIKE it!" when I get a chance to tell him and 2b. What keeps selling books). You're right, I'm not going to make everyone happy with every book. I'm sorry it didn't float your boat. I'd say I hope the next one will, but I won't be insulted if you don't like it either. (I might be confused why you picked it up, but hey, it's your time and your money!)
Fair warning all: I'm going to keep writing about these characters for the last two books. There will still be Asmodean tieflings and warlocks and young women and people who think about their internal emotional states and their relationships with other people. There will also be dragonborn and fiends. You have been warned.
I love the Realms and I respect your passion for the Realms. That's all I need to want to read your novels. So bring on the tieflings and the warlocks. I'm dying to know how things turn out for Azuth! I'm also hoping you work Tam and Selune in there somewhere. Selune never gets any action. |
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Will they won't they? Fire in The Blood Discussion
