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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 04:24:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Well, considering that I am an avid fan of a Song of Ice and Fire and a Game of Thrones... Yeah, I think that pretty much answers your question.
god that is the most boring book i ever read, i heard that all the charcters died and hoped in the next one the charcters will be more admirerable, alas i was wrong.
i dont buy second rate or lower, espically when its basicly the same price or free. i dont intend to compremise on the quality of what i call heroic. |
Knowledge is Power |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 04:49:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Xal Valzar
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Well, considering that I am an avid fan of a Song of Ice and Fire and a Game of Thrones... Yeah, I think that pretty much answers your question.
god that is the most boring book i ever read, i heard that all the charcters died and hoped in the next one the charcters will be more admirerable, alas i was wrong.
i dont buy second rate or lower, espically when its basicly the same price or free. i dont intend to compremise on the quality of what i call heroic.
Well for someone who loves Ayn Rands books, I suppose I will just say this: the market has spoken. A Song of Ice and Fire and a Game of Thrones is exceedingly popular, and is a franchise worth millions of dollars.
You are entitled to your tastes. However, very few people are interested in your Mary Sue character. No sane and rational DM would ever let that character within 100 feet of a gaming table, and I pity any DM dumb enough to let it happen.
I am not really sure what you want at this point, aside from seeking validation for your character. As Lyiat so eloquently wrote, you are not going to get that here, in large part because we all see your character as a walking disaster waiting to happen.
People here, including myself, are willing to help you modify the character, but as you point out you are not willing to compromise. As a result, I dump you onto your DM's hands. He or she is the one that has to deal with this mess. |
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 05:10:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Xal Valzar
pft, if u want to play small heroes then go ahead, just dont get mad at people who think big. also dont call them heroes unless there 'larger then life' and BIG.
i mean for the love of dice, who ever walked into a movie or opened a book and said "boy i hope the hero is small and balanced!" with excitment.
quote:
Originally posted by Xal Valzar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, for one, am willing to work with Xal to make this a more plausible concept, but it's going to require some serious changes to the character. If I was a DM, just the description of the character would cause me to rule out allowing him at the table; I wouldn't even bother asking for a character sheet.
well what makes him not a good player charcter? and why?
what would you change?
- Heracles: Powerful greek hero, son of the god Zeus, strength to literally move mountains. Considered one of the most famous heroes of all literature. Pride, vanity, explosive anger, depression, actually murdered his family in a fit of blind rage.
- Superman: Immortal, indestructible, has the strength to bench-press the entire planet, brain operates faster than light itself, has even back-handed deities. Kryptonite, easily manipulated, magic, overbearing sense of righteousness that has led him to turning into a dictator on multiple occasions.
- Batman: Rich, genius level intellect, peak physical form, perhaps the most skilled martial artist in all of DC. Emotionally broken, incapable of forming healthy relationships, incapable of letting people close to him, trust issues, unable to be a team player.
- Artemis Entrei: Mythically perceptive, dexterous, and deadly, capable of taking down nearly any target he sets his mind on, wields some of the most dangerous artifacts the Realms have seen. Emotionally dead, incapable of forming connections with people outside of bloody rivalries, self-destructive obsession with being the best swordsman.
- Anakin Skywalker: Living embodiment of the force, forged an Empire, master fighter pilot and duelist. Emotional, easily manipulated, obsessed with death (specifically his lovers), fell to evil.
- Achilles: Son of one of the Nereids, direct decedent of Poseidon himself, invincible in battle, charismatic to the point of inspiring a losing force onto victory, and capable of strategic brilliance on par with Athena. Vain, rage issues, boastful, hubris, and the trope namer of the Achilles heel, a literary trope used to help define what it is to make a believable and enjoyable character.
Now, you see what I'm getting here? All characters, larger-than-life, tragically flawed to make them into entertaining and interesting characters instead of flat, 2D boards with zero substance. If your character's defining trait is "perfection", then you've done something wrong. There is zero meaning behind being perfect. If your character doesn't struggle with his challenges, if it doesn't put him to the task every step of the way, then there is absolutely zero point to his existence other than to serve as a monument to how "amazing" you are to have made such a character. It's lazy character design, it serves no intellectual challenge to role play, and will bore your fellow gamers to tears to put up with.
The best flaw you can at all come up with is, "He's socially awkward", which you've completely negated by making him the intellectual rival of Tesla with the looks of a male Aphrodite. You have no Achilles's Heel, you have no Kyptonite, you don't even have a White Whale. It's a self-indulgent snore-fest of how blindingly glorious your character, and by extension you, is. A hero is defined by his accomplishments and struggles, a "character who, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, displayed courage and the will for self-sacrifice - heroism - for the greater good". Your character is no hero. I've seen single mothers who are more heroic than your golden god.
Punching Cthulhu in the face doesn't make you a hero. Threatening a racist with your axe doesn't make you a hero. Destroying the evil muguffin that was two seconds from ending the world as we know it doesn't make you a hero. These accomplishments mean nothing when they were as arbitrary as swatting a fly for you. The cleric that spends his days tending to the poor and malnourished, selflessly giving his time and energy to save people is a hero. The dark elf that risks body and limb to protect the racist civilization that shunned him is a hero. The barbarian that caved a ceiling on himself to kill a demon and save his friends (at the cost of his own life) is a hero. Compare these actions to Ao, who arbitrary restored balance to all of Abier with a single handwave. He's not a hero. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
Edited by - Lyiat on 14 Oct 2014 05:12:47 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37018 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 05:13:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Xal Valzar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, for one, am willing to work with Xal to make this a more plausible concept, but it's going to require some serious changes to the character. If I was a DM, just the description of the character would cause me to rule out allowing him at the table; I wouldn't even bother asking for a character sheet.
well what makes him not a good player charcter? and why?
what would you change?
More reasonable stats, a more plausible origin, more reasonable abilities... At the very least, pick one: either he gets the bonuses from being a half-elf, or he gets the bonuses from being a half-orc. Certainly not both.
You say you want a heroic character. That's fine. But you're missing part of what makes a hero: it's the journey from humble beginnings to something greater.
Look at the classic Star Wars trilogy. Luke Skywalker didn't start off as a confident Jedi Master, in full command of the Force -- he was a brash, immature farm boy who was a good pilot. He couldn't become a Jedi Master without that journey: loss, bad decisions, sacrifice... He went thru the proverbial fire, and came out stronger. He went from a whiny teenager in need of a good slap to a someone who is instrumental in saving the galaxy.
For another look at heroes, look at the hobbits in the Lord of the Rings. None of them are any kind of remarkable, at first. Merry and Pippin earn positions of honor for themselves with bravery and loyalty. Samwise is the very definition of dedication and devotion. Frodo carried a heavy burden thru the entire story; in the end, he was saved by his own compassion towards Gollum. And then these four -- physically, the least of Fellowship -- went home, stood up to the taller, stronger humans that were ravaging the Shire, rallied their people, and reclaimed their land, both physically and spiritually. They start off as average Joes -- barely adults, even, for Merry and Pippin -- and earned their way into prominence among their own people and among the wider world.
Look at Tony Stark in the first Iron Man movie. Incredibly egotistical and self-centered, he cared for nothing more than his own pleasure, whether gambling or wenching. It was when he was a hostage, with his life in danger, and when he saw real sacrifice and real pain, that he dedicated himself to something larger than himself. He went from taking whatever he could from the world to giving as much as he could to the world.
The most interesting heroes are the ones that have to work for it. The most interesting heroes are those who start with nothing and rise above it. The most interesting heroes are flawed and far from perfect, but still manage to rise to the occasion.
Heroes aren't made, they are forged. And like a sword, they start as crude, unrefined materials. They have to be mercilessly pounded into shape, they have to have other elements mixed in to make them stronger, they have to go thru the fire, and they have to be sharpened. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Oct 2014 05:16:59 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37018 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 05:15:28
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...And Lyiat comes in whilst I was typing and again says it all, quite well.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 05:17:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
...And Lyiat comes in whilst I was typing and again says it all, quite well.
Heh, we touched up on a lot of the same points. Think of it as a complementary post to yours. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 05:17:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Xal Valzar
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Well, considering that I am an avid fan of a Song of Ice and Fire and a Game of Thrones... Yeah, I think that pretty much answers your question.
god that is the most boring book i ever read, i heard that all the charcters died and hoped in the next one the charcters will be more admirerable, alas i was wrong.
i dont buy second rate or lower, espically when its basicly the same price or free. i dont intend to compremise on the quality of what i call heroic.
Well for someone who loves Ayn Rands books, I suppose I will just say this: the market has spoken. A Song of Ice and Fire and a Game of Thrones is exceedingly popular, and is a franchise worth millions of dollars.
You are entitled to your tastes. However, very few people are interested in your Mary Sue character. No sane and rational DM would ever let that character within 100 feet of a gaming table, and I pity any DM dumb enough to let it happen.
I am not really sure what you want at this point, aside from seeking validation for your character. As Lyiat so eloquently wrote, you are not going to get that here, in large part because we all see your character as a walking disaster waiting to happen.
People here, including myself, are willing to help you modify the character, but as you point out you are not willing to compromise. As a result, I dump you onto your DM's hands. He or she is the one that has to deal with this mess.
you still never said why is it such a mess with this charcter, just for my courisity i wonder what you would change, and why.
secondly popularity does not prove if a work is good or not, the examples are all to near.
secondly last time i checked Terry Goodkind outsold GRRM with a HUGE Marry Sue character, who yes is perfect from the start.
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Knowledge is Power |
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 05:22:00
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| I'd like to finish this argument with one more comment. "A knight in shining armor has never had his metal truly tested". This is your character. Until he's driven through the flames, had his armor nicked and damaged and covered by a fine layer of rust, until he's actually been hurt... He's not a hero. He's boring, and uninteresting, and would never be permitted near one of my campaigns. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 05:31:59
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| You think 20's across the board offset by an 8 CHA unreasonable? Whatsamatta witchoo? It'sa 50 point build. Dontcha know, Orckles only get +6 to STR, DEX, CON and INT. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 14 Oct 2014 05:48:23 |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 05:40:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xal Valzar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, for one, am willing to work with Xal to make this a more plausible concept, but it's going to require some serious changes to the character. If I was a DM, just the description of the character would cause me to rule out allowing him at the table; I wouldn't even bother asking for a character sheet.
well what makes him not a good player charcter? and why?
what would you change?
More reasonable stats, a more plausible origin, more reasonable abilities... At the very least, pick one: either he gets the bonuses from being a half-elf, or he gets the bonuses from being a half-orc. Certainly not both.
You say you want a heroic character. That's fine. But you're missing part of what makes a hero: it's the journey from humble beginnings to something greater.
Look at the classic Star Wars trilogy. Luke Skywalker didn't start off as a confident Jedi Master, in full command of the Force -- he was a brash, immature farm boy who was a good pilot. He couldn't become a Jedi Master without that journey: loss, bad decisions, sacrifice... He went thru the proverbial fire, and came out stronger. He went from a whiny teenager in need of a good slap to a someone who is instrumental in saving the galaxy.
For another look at heroes, look at the hobbits in the Lord of the Rings. None of them are any kind of remarkable, at first. Merry and Pippin earn positions of honor for themselves with bravery and loyalty. Samwise is the very definition of dedication and devotion. Frodo carried a heavy burden thru the entire story; in the end, he was saved by his own compassion towards Gollum. And then these four -- physically, the least of Fellowship -- went home, stood up to the taller, stronger humans that were ravaging the Shire, rallied their people, and reclaimed their land, both physically and spiritually. They start off as average Joes -- barely adults, even, for Merry and Pippin -- and earned their way into prominence among their own people and among the wider world.
Look at Tony Stark in the first Iron Man movie. Incredibly egotistical and self-centered, he cared for nothing more than his own pleasure, whether gambling or wenching. It was when he was a hostage, with his life in danger, and when he saw real sacrifice and real pain, that he dedicated himself to something larger than himself. He went from taking whatever he could from the world to giving as much as he could to the world.
The most interesting heroes are the ones that have to work for it. The most interesting heroes are those who start with nothing and rise above it. The most interesting heroes are flawed and far from perfect, but still manage to rise to the occasion.
Heroes aren't made, they are forged. And like a sword, they start as crude, unrefined materials. They have to be mercilessly pounded into shape, they have to have other elements mixed in to make them stronger, they have to go thru the fire, and they have to be sharpened.
look at Jean Val-Jean, look at the rest of the heroes of Victor Hugo, look at Cyrano de Bergerac, look at Howard Roark or any charcter in Ayn Rand's novels. Look at Richard from the Sword of Truth. Look at Alexander the Great in real life. Look at George Washington. Look at Drizzt.
All of these were heroes for as long as they were, and none of them are seen as more heroic for indulging in the flaws they might have.
Heroes are not Forged or Born or anything outside them selves. Heroes are made! and they are self made!
if they were forged by outside infulnces then what makes them heroes? they did not do any of it but it was done to them. Then being a hero boils down to being at the right place at the right time, but what makes a place or a time right? no answer can be given.
secondly i hope Tony Stark is not in it for the greater good or what not, thanks to his brilliant inventions the world is a much better place to begin with. if anyone owes something its the world to Tony Stark. i would think he dedicated himself to defeating his enemies for HIM. and im glad he acts selfishly through all the other movies.
secondly i dont get why reasoanble should mean 'average' |
Knowledge is Power |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 05:50:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyiat
[quote]Originally posted by Xal Valzar
The best flaw you can at all come up with is, "He's socially awkward", which you've completely negated by making him the intellectual rival of Tesla with the looks of a male Aphrodite. You have no Achilles's Heel, you have no Kyptonite, you don't even have a White Whale. It's a self-indulgent snore-fest of how blindingly glorious your character, and by extension you, is. A hero is defined by his accomplishments and struggles, a "character who, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, displayed courage and the will for self-sacrifice - heroism - for the greater good". Your character is no hero. I've seen single mothers who are more heroic than your golden god.
Punching Cthulhu in the face doesn't make you a hero. Threatening a racist with your axe doesn't make you a hero. Destroying the evil muguffin that was two seconds from ending the world as we know it doesn't make you a hero. These accomplishments mean nothing when they were as arbitrary as swatting a fly for you. The cleric that spends his days tending to the poor and malnourished, selflessly giving his time and energy to save people is a hero. The dark elf that risks body and limb to protect the racist civilization that shunned him is a hero. The barbarian that caved a ceiling on himself to kill a demon and save his friends (at the cost of his own life) is a hero. Compare these actions to Ao, who arbitrary restored balance to all of Abier with a single handwave. He's not a hero.
i never understood the 'glory' of self immolating yourself. by that standards the more u suffer for the needy the better you are. if u follow that then the most moral man should fight FOR sacrfice himself for the worst most wretched man he can meet. not just that he should take the rest of the people who are healthy and make a forced blood transfusion while at it because thats the good.
on that same token a mighty paladin should throw his sword the moment he sees evil slaver demons, the more he suffers the better he is by your standard. as one man once said "turn the other cheek".
that is the reverse standard of what it means to be a hero, if by your standard im far off then i know im going in the right direction.
also to answer all those flawed "heroes" (or demi-heroes) i have 2 words, John Galt. (though an attempt at a hero like that was made before him) |
Knowledge is Power |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 05:52:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
You think 20's across the board offset by an 8 CHA unreasonable? Whatsamatta witchoo? It'sa 50 point build. Dontcha know, Orckles only get +6 to STR, DEX, CON and INT.
i told u already he starts with
STR 15 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 15 wis 10 cha 8
he ends as a:
STR 16 dex 14 Con 14 Int 20 wis 11 cha 8
(im using 5e rules btw(
thats actually low for a fighter that gets a total of +18 to ability points. |
Knowledge is Power |
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 05:53:01
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Drizzt: Mythically perceptive, dexterous, and deadly, the most capable swordsman in the realms, has faced down its most terrifying enemies, wields some of most iconic artifacts in the Realms. Bloodlust, naivety, faces active racism (took nearly a century to forge his own name and STILL deals with it), earned every magical item he carries with his own blood, has been regularly beaten, bruised, and battered by life, watched all of his friends die without the ability to save them, lost his family, reviled by his own race, a sense morals that has gotten him into trouble on multiple occasions, a violent split-personality that has, on occasion, completely overwritten him...
I could go on. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 05:55:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyiat
Drizzt: Mythically perceptive, dexterous, and deadly, the most capable swordsman in the realms, has faced down its most terrifying enemies, wields some of most iconic artifacts in the Realms. Bloodlust, naivety, faces active racism (took nearly a century to forge his own name and STILL deals with it), earned every magical item he carries with his own blood, has been regularly beaten, bruised, and battered by life, watched all of his friends die without the ability to save them, lost his family, reviled by his own race, a sense morals that has gotten him into trouble on multiple occasions, a violent split-personality that has, on occasion, completely overwritten him...
I could go on.
ehh be optimistic here. he still came to find happiness for most of his life. |
Knowledge is Power |
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 06:06:54
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You really want to go into the real ones?
George Washington: Considered a hero due to the struggles he faced during the Revolution. That man fought and struggled for this country, faced numerous setbacks, lost thousands of men to his name. If he had simply walked over the British troops in an overwhelming fashion with superior weaponry, skills, and numbers, do you think he'd be as romantically thought of today? No, it would have been, "just another battle". George Washington lead a victory against an overwhelmingly superior force and became the first leader of a new country.
Alexander the Great: Ultimately, anything but great. Driven by his own personal agenda, the man forged a bloody path through multiple nations for nothing but his own greed. This is a man who has his own lieutenants executed for doubting his divinity. He's a 'great man' because he forged a nation with his armies and leadership skills, not because he was a hero. Alexander the Great was the Macedonian equivalent of Adolf Hitler, except he was successful, so history remembers him differently. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 06:22:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyiat
You really want to go into the real ones?
George Washington: Considered a hero due to the struggles he faced during the Revolution. That man fought and struggled for this country, faced numerous setbacks, lost thousands of men to his name. If he had simply walked over the British troops in an overwhelming fashion with superior weaponry, skills, and numbers, do you think he'd be as romantically thought of today? No, it would have been, "just another battle". George Washington lead a victory against an overwhelmingly superior force and became the first leader of a new country.
Alexander the Great: Ultimately, anything but great. Driven by his own personal agenda, the man forged a bloody path through multiple nations for nothing but his own greed. This is a man who has his own lieutenants executed for doubting his divinity. He's a 'great man' because he forged a nation with his armies and leadership skills, not because he was a hero. Alexander the Great was the Macedonian equivalent of Adolf Hitler, except he was successful, so history remembers him differently.
pft, none of us would not be writting this right now via internet if it was not for those 2 men.
it has nothing to do with the forces he faced, if the president of the USA would romp over ISIS and Iran today with a carpet bomb that would be easy, albiet he would still be a hero. he would be a hero for the moral confidence he had and the result that it had on human life and values. same for George Washington, he would still be hero for acting on morals that aided life.
secondly Alexander is great because he was selfish, no man can forge anything worthwhile if he sets out with no regeard for his own life.
Alexander lead civilization and englightenment throughtout the world, he was seen as a light bringer by nearly any man who he conquered. the Greecks were freemen while all under the persian empire were slaves to the king. as a fact most cities became Greeck styled polisis and even the Queen of Persia begged to stay when Persian soldiers tried to bring her back.
BTW saying Alexander is equivalent to Hitler is soiling Alexanders name and by that white washing Hitlers name. saying there the same for a superfical difrnece makes light of the actual atrocoties he commited. i actually have family that died during the Holucaust. if thats ur idea of judging peoples morals dont say another word about what is a hero to me. |
Knowledge is Power |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 06:23:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyiat
You really want to go into the real ones?
just curious, what do u think of John Galt or Howard Roark or Richard Rahl? |
Knowledge is Power |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 06:29:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I mean, look at this guy. Clearly he's dangerous. A picture perfect elf/orc hybrid.
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Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 06:38:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I mean, look at this guy. Clearly he's dangerous. A picture perfect elf/orc hybrid.
ur just trolling |
Knowledge is Power |
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 06:48:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Xal Valzar
quote:
Originally posted by Lyiat
You really want to go into the real ones?
George Washington: Considered a hero due to the struggles he faced during the Revolution. That man fought and struggled for this country, faced numerous setbacks, lost thousands of men to his name. If he had simply walked over the British troops in an overwhelming fashion with superior weaponry, skills, and numbers, do you think he'd be as romantically thought of today? No, it would have been, "just another battle". George Washington lead a victory against an overwhelmingly superior force and became the first leader of a new country.
Alexander the Great: Ultimately, anything but great. Driven by his own personal agenda, the man forged a bloody path through multiple nations for nothing but his own greed. This is a man who has his own lieutenants executed for doubting his divinity. He's a 'great man' because he forged a nation with his armies and leadership skills, not because he was a hero. Alexander the Great was the Macedonian equivalent of Adolf Hitler, except he was successful, so history remembers him differently.
pft, none of us would not be writting this right now via internet if it was not for those 2 men.
it has nothing to do with the forces he faced, if the president of the USA would romp over ISIS and Iran today with a carpet bomb that would be easy, albiet he would still be a hero. he would be a hero for the moral confidence he had and the result that it had on human life and values. same for George Washington, he would still be hero for acting on morals that aided life.
secondly Alexander is great because he was selfish, no man can forge anything worthwhile if he sets out with no regeard for his own life.
Alexander lead civilization and englightenment throughtout the world, he was seen as a light bringer by nearly any man who he conquered. the Greecks were freemen while all under the persian empire were slaves to the king. as a fact most cities became Greeck styled polisis and even the Queen of Persia begged to stay when Persian soldiers tried to bring her back.
BTW saying Alexander is equivalent to Hitler is soiling Alexanders name and by that white washing Hitlers name. saying there the same for a superfical difrnece makes light of the actual atrocoties he commited. i actually have family that died during the Holucaust. if thats ur idea of judging peoples morals dont say another word about what is a hero to me.
Alexander the Great committed an unsolicited war against no less than 12 nations, sent millions of soldiers and civilians to their deaths, sacked country sides, burnt crops, starved people, put tens of thousands of people into slavery, and has a death toll to his name probably comparable to Joseph Stalin. So, yes, I will compare him to Hitler, because they're comparable, despite your personal connection to the Holocaust. I'm of German ancestry, by the way. They are both brilliant leaders who forged powerful regimes and did unspeakable things to do so. These are undeniable facts. But it sure is easy to glaze over all the outright evil things he did just because it 'turned out ok in the end'. That was Hitler's justification too.
If Obama steamrolled over the ISIS, he would not be considered a hero. He'd be, by and large, considered a dictatorial monster who just slaughtered a bunch of soldiers 'just following orders' and imposing American morality and values on a sovereign foreign people. Not to mention the countless innocent people who would die in pursuit of such a war. Do you so regularly forget how George Bush is seen for the 'liberation' of Iraq? How about Nixon for the Vietnam war? America (outside of America) for dropping the nuclear bomb?
You do pointedly do not understand what the word "heroism" means. It is bravery in the face of danger. If your character faces no challenge, no danger, nothing that can seriously put him at risk, then your character is not a hero. Your character is a meaningless deus ex machina whom devalues the purpose of the narrative. I release you to go frustrate your DM with this nonsensical argument, because I'm getting nowhere, and I have a manuscript to get back to. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37018 Posts |
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 07:08:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, we need to shy away from real-world politics, please.
That's fine, I'm pretty much done with this at this point. Guy just isn't getting the picture. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 07:27:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyiat
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, we need to shy away from real-world politics, please.
That's fine, I'm pretty much done with this at this point. Guy just isn't getting the picture.
its not a picture its a distortion of what things really look like. |
Knowledge is Power |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 07:50:14
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I think this would actually be quite a fun character to play, in a masochistic sort of way.
No matter how skilled a swordsman & brilliant a mage he might be (or perceives himself to be), having CHA 8, coupled with his ancestry, means that at best, people will ignore him, at worst it will be burning pitchforks time. The fact that the character thinks that he's a perfect paragon, and that everyone will like/worship him, is in itself a pretty big character flaw.
I have a vision in my mind:
"No! Wait, stop! Let me impress you with my mad sword skills! My advice about your spellcasting style really is valid, you know! And can I interest you in these trinkets? Ow! Why are you jabbing me with that pitchfork?"
Sort of like if Shrek had an incredibly high (and unrealistic) opinion of himself and his place in the world, and went into town totally oblivious to the screams of horror & revulsion. |
Edited by - BenN on 14 Oct 2014 07:53:10 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 11:43:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Xal Valzar
quote:
Originally posted by Lyiat
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, for one, am willing to work with Xal to make this a more plausible concept, but it's going to require some serious changes to the character. If I was a DM, just the description of the character would cause me to rule out allowing him at the table; I wouldn't even bother asking for a character sheet.
I don't disagree, Wooly, but it doesn't seem like Xal is willing to compromise his golden vision. He wants to arrive at the end game rather than see the character develop from a base, with all the flaws and imperfections that come with it. He wants a character that experienced racism in his history without actually having to face the racism as a challenge in game (at the very least, not as a challenge that his character couldn't flex his pecs at to eradicate).
listen u dont get this but racism is evil, and evil is stupid. fundemnatly stupid and incometent, it cant get the job done, espically in the long run.
if ur stupid enough not to hire someone because of his race then the guy whos smarter then u is surely richer. Xal is a merchant and money, and its parent, ability, talk.
secondly everyone is racist UNTIL it comes down to money, i have stories from Jews in pre-ww2 germany on that.
also think and stretch his plecs.
and why comprmise? why does he have to come flawed? sieroualy why?
ROFLMSFAO |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 12:05:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
ROFLMSFAO
Yeah. That's about the point where this thread devolved from an argument to a parody of one. Also, you're one post from 1337 posts. Spend it wisely. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 15:18:57
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| pft, the hallmark of intelctual bankruptcy is ridiculing when you have no answer. and sierously the only thing you figured out to say was FPRLMSFAO, you still didnt give me one answer to what why you are saying is good. you just replace heroism with misery and realistic with cynicism. |
Knowledge is Power |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 15:36:13
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well and just to give u taste on how he rolls
i set a town free from a bandit band and cleared there manor, while making a pretty clear example out of thier leader in town square. got to replace the town master with some of the more englightned towns people support.
the band also had 3 gobling slaves and 3 human slaves, one was a teenage kid. i told the now freed slaves that the manor as of now was mine and that they can live there and use the supplies the bandits had on condition that they clean the place up and arrange in stacks the bricks in the house, meanwhile with the capital now the company holds buy a wagon and a draft horse and 2 riding horse and deck them with ringmail armor, one party member took greatweapon feat to use a lance, i dont know too many raider who would go agianst 2 armed knights one with a studry looking lance. the boy we saved we hired as our apprentice to take care of the wagon while we are off. hes getting quite good with the shortsword to.
the slaves wont refuse because its a damn good deal (this should be obvious).
and were expecting to get a return on our investment in the house of nearly 25% for the short term and a 5% each month after that from a foresting operation.
see, being a genius businessmen and a hero is easy. if u know how to use ur brain and get things done. |
Knowledge is Power |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1607 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 17:05:48
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You're not doing anything I haven't seen players do before.
He also has a Charisma of 8, so I'm not seeing how this dude is doing anything social. What's the rest of your party doing? Do they merely exist to prop up the magnificence that is the most spectacular body and most advanced mind in Faerun? |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2014 : 18:18:02
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well the rest of the party is each doing his own intrest, the other one is a Drow Rouge Arcane Tricketsr who escaped the underdark, he and i are partners - he is the face of the party for dealing with not so nice people. there is also a half elf paladin noble who is Xals romantic partner and is played by my girl friend in real life. she is the face of the party for dealing with most people. also there is a wizard who latched along by chance to find more magic but he saw a nufiks and now wants out of adventuring and discovering magic. intrestingly everything there was an arcana knowledge check Xal beat him - though mostly by lucky dice rolls. Xal is the guy who talks buisness, giving arguments figures intrest rates the works, he never uses charisma checks for that, only him giving reasons, i did once do an intelligence check on the finical figures. and an integinace check to see how clear the presentation was.
but Xal is definalty the leader of the party, integrating the long term and giving tasks and orginizing the efforts on the short term. mostly through uniting abstractions with practical problems.
secondly im not aware of anyone with the same kind of buisness savey as Xal, i mean most people see an adventure as a kill - grab bag - run. i see it as an investment opportunity. making me merchant first and adventurer second. |
Knowledge is Power |
Edited by - Xal Valzar on 14 Oct 2014 18:25:35 |
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Topic |
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Are Elf-Orcs possible?
Topic Locked
