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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
    
USA
2086 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2014 : 18:04:11
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Are you building off something in Giantcraft?
--Eric
quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well i did a bit more brainstorming and a bit more research and got lucky and found a reference to Netheril and an empire of Jhothun.
So now i know where the giants that killed Malick came from. I have a reason for their invasion. And the invasion has a number of consequences that results in Netheril's decline.
The loss of the weapons of Aryvandaar being the most decisive consequence.
And i moved Thultanthar from Lake Heip to Holloway so i can link Thaeravel to shadow magic and Holloway was built in what would become the Farsea Marshes which would have been part of Thaeravel and so the archaeology expedition was actually looking for bits on shadow magic.
And does anyone think incest is taking the excesses of archwizards a bit too far?
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-- http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
   
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2014 : 18:35:40
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I thought Jhothun was gone long before Netheril... where do you see them connected?
Edit: also I'm pretty sure we know from the Netheril box that at least some of the enclaves moved around... at least things like north in the summer and south in the winter, and others moved as unpredictably as possible to spy on or avoid rivals. So they can be pretty much wherever you want to put them on a particular date. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 04 Sep 2014 18:41:55 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief

    
USA
36863 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2014 : 19:17:17
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quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal
And does anyone think incest is taking the excesses of archwizards a bit too far?
It depends on how far you take it. Making it a societal norm would be going too far, in my opinion. Having a handful of supremely arrogant wizards who think such concerns are for lessers? Yeah, I can see it in that scenario. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
    
USA
2086 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2014 : 20:32:40
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quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal
And does anyone think incest is taking the excesses of archwizards a bit too far?
It depends on how far you take it. Making it a societal norm would be going too far, in my opinion. Having a handful of supremely arrogant wizards who think such concerns are for lessers? Yeah, I can see it in that scenario.
You can also view it in the "Game of Thrones" context. Certain ruling families might go that direction based on a concern for preserving the bloodline and for avoiding entanglements with other noble families.
In other words, arrogant Netherese archwizards can probably rationalize any behavior. |
-- http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Gary Dallison
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Gary Dallison
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
    
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2014 : 16:44:43
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I don't think it was inevitable. I think Karsus' Avatar was a 'perfect storm' of arrogant overreaching. I think had he cast the spell, trying to steal pretty much any other god's portfolio, that the results would have not led to such disaster. I also think that had he a better understanding of the weave - like say, the Srinshee - and had cast the spell to steal Mystril's power it would have had better results. Karsus was the epitome of the Netherese way of using magic, which pretty much ignored the weave and instead just grabbed at the power. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief

    
USA
36863 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2014 : 17:12:51
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quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So anyone have any ideas for side effects of excessive magic use.
I have used the mythallars to increase the breeding rates of fish in the narrow sea. This results in a number of dragons plaguing the basin to feed on the fish.
Of course the innate spellcasting ability of Netherese is one side effect. Im talking about those citizens on the enclaves that have lived for generations within the radius of multiple overlapping mythallars which results in people being born with the ability to cast simple cantrips without the need for study (kind of like what is happening in ravens bluff in 1370 with the annasherion).
So anyone have any other ideas.
I want to get across that the fall of Netheril was inevitable and was all their own fault. So I have enemies from outside and within rallying against the Netherese because of their actions, but I also want pressures brought about by their excesses that are more a response of the natural world (so too much food attracts dragons, etc).
Given the limited reach of mythallars (they did not go much further than the edges of the city), and the fact that most of them were on flying cities, I would expect their environmental impact to be negligible. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
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Gary Dallison
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2014 : 11:43:13
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Well i had a sneaky glance at some of the 5E products in local book stores.
Man they are generic, find 3 objects in one adventure, find 4 elemental keys in the red wizard adventure, find 5 dragon masks in Tiamat.
However i did notice some more stuff about elemental links in Netheril in the red wizard adventure, some noble family called Amagur or Amagul or Ama something who worshipped elemental lords and were given these elemental keys (for no particular reason - i hate generic fantasy).
But it got me thinking. The Age of Discovery is all about Netheril's expansion into other places not on Faerun (mostly because they kept getting their backsides handed to them), so during this period you probably got a lot of Archwizards and Arcanists that made pacts with extraplanar creatures for more power.
I would imagine that Rdiuz seizing towns in the Outlands which sparked the Seven Sigils War (I hope people like my alternate justification for it being called that) was probably because the Archwizard (who i called Rdiuz) was manipulated into conquering a few Gate Towns in the Outlands for his extraplanar allies (i bet yugoloths or baatezu would be very interested in those places).
Unfortunately Rdiuz bit off more than he could chew and the whole of Netheril got involved. They still couldnt win and got other extraplanar beings involved. A mini war raged in that area for a century as the extraplanar armies fought one another until the Netherese turned up and banished them all (Karsus having just recently discovered heavy magic which he used to great effect in the Far Forest).
Anyway thats my take on the Seven Sigils War. It cause Netheril to lose a large part of its armed forces which weakens it even more and means they cant deal with the emerging threats effectively. I would imagine that a byproduct of this event is that collaboration with extraplanar creatures is now actively discouraged in Netheril driving it underground.
However you could then use the Seven Sigils War to provide justification for that House Ama-whatsit) to be given the elemental keys to hide them (knowing someone or something nasty was after them) in return for the aid the elementals provided during the war. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
    
Australia
6679 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2014 : 11:48:59
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Rdiuz is a really terrible name.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
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Gary Dallison
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
    
Australia
6679 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2014 : 07:01:12
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quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal I am however open to suggestions if you have alternatives. I may have mentioned before but i suck at names.
You and slade have a bunch in common then!
The simple rule is if it sounds like crud, change it and justify the change.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2014 : 16:33:00
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Im wondering about the Netheril Basin being home to a Dragon Overlord at some point in the past.
Sarrukh died, then the tearfall happened, then dragons appeared, warred with the giants and then nothing. Jhothun appears to have existed in the far northern reaches of the basin (The High Ice). But following the fall of Isstessofifil nothing appears to have lived in the basin until the Rengarth arrive (probably of Icehunter stock).
Of course a Dragon Overlord tends not to build many structures and just lives in his cave hoarding wealth and possibly having draconic vassals come and pay him homage every now and then. Some are active and recruit lesser races and experiment on them and build actual empires, but others are just content to be the biggest and baddest thing living in whatever territory they can grab.
The Netheril sourcebook makes numerous references to dragons in the history Gembright, Embercoat, Lightningdance, Brightstrike. The adventure for Netheril details 2 really old gold dragons. All these dragons appear to be very old and they all suddenly start becoming active from -2000 DR onwards (during the Golden Age when Netheril was full of enclaves) particularly after -1000 DR.
So perhaps the dragon overlord had been in charge there for quite some time (after all something must have kept Thauglor the purple dragon in Cormyr - the elves kept him out of Cormanthor, what kept him out of the Netheril Basin). Old dragons sleep for hundreds maybe even thousands of years.
Then we have the Morueme clan of Blue dragons (and there were mentions of at least 5 blue dragons in the Netheril sourcebook).
The legendary dragon Morueme was said to have ruled over the Silver Marches during the time of dragons. I presume the elves finished him off and drove his clan out of the north towards the Nether Mountains and the Netheril Basin. Maybe when Netheril killed the Dragon Overlord it was the Morueme clan that eventually claimed the spoils of the basin.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
    
USA
11969 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2014 : 23:11:09
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quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Im wondering about the Netheril Basin being home to a Dragon Overlord at some point in the past.
Sarrukh died, then the tearfall happened, then dragons appeared, warred with the giants and then nothing. Jhothun appears to have existed in the far northern reaches of the basin (The High Ice). But following the fall of Isstessofifil nothing appears to have lived in the basin until the Rengarth arrive (probably of Icehunter stock).
Of course a Dragon Overlord tends not to build many structures and just lives in his cave hoarding wealth and possibly having draconic vassals come and pay him homage every now and then. Some are active and recruit lesser races and experiment on them and build actual empires, but others are just content to be the biggest and baddest thing living in whatever territory they can grab.
The Netheril sourcebook makes numerous references to dragons in the history Gembright, Embercoat, Lightningdance, Brightstrike. The adventure for Netheril details 2 really old gold dragons. All these dragons appear to be very old and they all suddenly start becoming active from -2000 DR onwards (during the Golden Age when Netheril was full of enclaves) particularly after -1000 DR.
So perhaps the dragon overlord had been in charge there for quite some time (after all something must have kept Thauglor the purple dragon in Cormyr - the elves kept him out of Cormanthor, what kept him out of the Netheril Basin). Old dragons sleep for hundreds maybe even thousands of years.
Then we have the Morueme clan of Blue dragons (and there were mentions of at least 5 blue dragons in the Netheril sourcebook).
The legendary dragon Morueme was said to have ruled over the Silver Marches during the time of dragons. I presume the elves finished him off and drove his clan out of the north towards the Nether Mountains and the Netheril Basin. Maybe when Netheril killed the Dragon Overlord it was the Morueme clan that eventually claimed the spoils of the basin.
Gonna disagree here a small bit. Draconic overlords won't just live in a cave. They'll have their human vassals build them a beautiful structure to live in. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2014 : 09:00:49
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I think it depends all upon the personality of the dragon.
Going by a few modern examples we have Iyrauroth who is a hoarder. His reason for hoarding is unusual (he wants to collect magic to power a ritual), but he is definitely a hoarder. He has a number of servants (half dragons and full dragons) but he has no grand structure to live in, instead he inhabits vast tunnel complexes beneath Thar.
Then we have Tchazzar, an empire builder, again his reason for empire building is unusual in that it is to attain or maintain godhood. He has a nation of human servants and they do build him grand structures (although his main lair is unknown).
More ancient is Thauglor the purple dragon of Cormyr. I'm not sure of his personality or the nation of his domain but from the few snippets it sounds like he was a dragon supremacist (i.e. he only wanted dragons living in Cormyr) and there is no evidence of any dragon ruins in Cormyr so any structure he built was probably in the Stormhorn mountains (although he may just have had a very large mountain lair).
I think the first dragon overlords were all empire builders, probably emulating the creator races and the giants that came before them. When the dracorage ended many of them other dragons took over who in turn lost to others until it was essentially a free for all of smaller kingdoms ruled by any dragon big enough to hold the land for a time.
As the elves and then humans arrived on the scene the dragon domains became smaller and smaller.
The Netheril basin is probably the exception in that there were no inhabitants organised enough to challenge a dragon (until Netheril). There is no evidence of any draconic ruins so I'm going to assume his lair was the grandest structure in his empire. Perhaps it was located in the Channel Mountains, its isolated, difficult for anyone but a dragon to get to, and the Netherese have a major fight with giants in that area and probably wake the dragon up.
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
    
USA
2086 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2014 : 23:27:48
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I might suggest a different tack for your write-up of Netheril.
Instead of starting with the Netheril boxed set, go back and look at the picture painted of Netheril before the Netheril boxed set. Things like clearly the Narrow Sea was supposed to run where the Frozen Sea is located if you look at FR13 - Anauroch, etc. Look at Ed's Wyrms articles, when they refer to Netheril, etc. Focus on mantles and scepters, not goofy names, floating enclaves, and history that's not integrated into the setting.
I think you'll be happier with the result.
quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I think it depends all upon the personality of the dragon.
Going by a few modern examples we have Iyrauroth who is a hoarder. His reason for hoarding is unusual (he wants to collect magic to power a ritual), but he is definitely a hoarder. He has a number of servants (half dragons and full dragons) but he has no grand structure to live in, instead he inhabits vast tunnel complexes beneath Thar.
Then we have Tchazzar, an empire builder, again his reason for empire building is unusual in that it is to attain or maintain godhood. He has a nation of human servants and they do build him grand structures (although his main lair is unknown).
More ancient is Thauglor the purple dragon of Cormyr. I'm not sure of his personality or the nation of his domain but from the few snippets it sounds like he was a dragon supremacist (i.e. he only wanted dragons living in Cormyr) and there is no evidence of any dragon ruins in Cormyr so any structure he built was probably in the Stormhorn mountains (although he may just have had a very large mountain lair).
I think the first dragon overlords were all empire builders, probably emulating the creator races and the giants that came before them. When the dracorage ended many of them other dragons took over who in turn lost to others until it was essentially a free for all of smaller kingdoms ruled by any dragon big enough to hold the land for a time.
As the elves and then humans arrived on the scene the dragon domains became smaller and smaller.
The Netheril basin is probably the exception in that there were no inhabitants organised enough to challenge a dragon (until Netheril). There is no evidence of any draconic ruins so I'm going to assume his lair was the grandest structure in his empire. Perhaps it was located in the Channel Mountains, its isolated, difficult for anyone but a dragon to get to, and the Netherese have a major fight with giants in that area and probably wake the dragon up.
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-- http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
    
USA
11969 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2014 : 03:41:28
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quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I think it depends all upon the personality of the dragon.
Going by a few modern examples we have Iyrauroth who is a hoarder. His reason for hoarding is unusual (he wants to collect magic to power a ritual), but he is definitely a hoarder. He has a number of servants (half dragons and full dragons) but he has no grand structure to live in, instead he inhabits vast tunnel complexes beneath Thar.
Then we have Tchazzar, an empire builder, again his reason for empire building is unusual in that it is to attain or maintain godhood. He has a nation of human servants and they do build him grand structures (although his main lair is unknown).
More ancient is Thauglor the purple dragon of Cormyr. I'm not sure of his personality or the nation of his domain but from the few snippets it sounds like he was a dragon supremacist (i.e. he only wanted dragons living in Cormyr) and there is no evidence of any dragon ruins in Cormyr so any structure he built was probably in the Stormhorn mountains (although he may just have had a very large mountain lair).
I think the first dragon overlords were all empire builders, probably emulating the creator races and the giants that came before them. When the dracorage ended many of them other dragons took over who in turn lost to others until it was essentially a free for all of smaller kingdoms ruled by any dragon big enough to hold the land for a time.
As the elves and then humans arrived on the scene the dragon domains became smaller and smaller.
The Netheril basin is probably the exception in that there were no inhabitants organised enough to challenge a dragon (until Netheril). There is no evidence of any draconic ruins so I'm going to assume his lair was the grandest structure in his empire. Perhaps it was located in the Channel Mountains, its isolated, difficult for anyone but a dragon to get to, and the Netherese have a major fight with giants in that area and probably wake the dragon up.
Bear in mind with modern examples that they may be overlords, but its flimsy... not like those of old where they didn't have much in the way of competition. The dragons of old probably saw themselves much like the ancient Pharaohs, etc.... and would have wanted shrines to their greatness built. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
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neuronphaser
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 00:38:03
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I have nothing useful to add at the moment, but want to say that this is great material to work with. I'm planning to run a campaign in Netheril for my 4e game because it kinda works as a default "magic-rich" world/rule-set, so I've looked at Netheril through that lens (adding Dragonborn and some other 4e-isms). What I found helpful was using Lost Empires of Faerun as the basis, and just adding a few locations/people from the Netheril box set, rather than the other way around. Of course, I'm also basing one of the Enclaves (not sure which one yet) on Eberron's city of Sharn, but otherwise doing as you did and limiting most other Enclaves to being small communities or even singular keeps under the control of a single powerful Arcanist and maybe a few of his/her apprentices.
Anyway, just wanted to say that I like this! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 08:41:24
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Well i'm glad you like the idea.
I am going to write up articles piece meal style for my fan mag.
So one article will have important places, another will have a brief overview of Seventon, another will have a descriptive history, another will have a timeline.
Once im finished though i think i might release a special edition of the fan mag and write it all up in a sourcebook style.
As with everything i do for the alternate dimensions project, it will be recognisable as Netheril, but it will be somewhat different. Mostly it started out as me fixing the timeline because the creation of settlements and the ordering of events was all over the place and disjointed (they managed to spread out awfully quickly from a geographical point of view before settling the lands inbetween).
All the major events are still in there. THe Nether Scrolls, Ioulaum, Karsus, etc, its just a little bit different.
If anyone is at all interested i could do with someone to read through what i put together to make sure it hangs well from a thematic, continuity, and lore point of view. As a bonus you get a sneak peak of the information before its released. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2015 : 09:45:00
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Just had a weird thought about Netheril and Mystryl and the Weave and Avrauntra.
So in Elminster's Forgotten Realms, Ed details a female magic user who he says is the first and greatest Netherese Arcanist of Netheril. It then details how she trained other arcanists creating the foundation for Netheril's magocracy. That certainly makes her the most influential, but not necessarily the greatest.
Then it states that ultimately she merged with the weave becoming a weave ghost, increasing the strength and extent of the weave. Again that does not necessarily make her the greatest, it just makes her the most long lived and probably the first non elf to do such a thing.
Now thinking about the history of the realms, the Weave came into being in order to prevent lesser creatures from being burned alive by the raw magic that saturated Abeir Toril.
The legends state that Mystryl was created by the war between Shar and Selune and thus the weave and the goddess were born at the same time, but what if that isnt true.
There is little to no indication that Mystryl existed outside of Netheril. There have been other gods of magic (racial pantheons for instance) but there was no overarching pantheon that dominated the majority of the planet until the modern age and probably half way through that, so is it likely that there existed a god who looked after the weave of the whole planet and yet was only worshipped by a single nation.
So alternative thought is this. The Weave was indeed created eons ago, possibly by the Baetith (the Nether Scrolls are the anchor of the weave holding it all together). I'm thinking that Abeir-Toril was saturated with magic, but this did not affect primordials. Over time the magic gets used up (flashy displays, huge magical workings etc), which deplete it enough to allow the creator races to exist, and the Baetith create the weave/Nether Scrolls and boom an explosion of lesser lifeforms occurs.
The goddess of the weave didnt come into existence until Avrauntra merged herself with it. Her personality became the foundation for a spark of intelligence in the weave that would ultimately coalesce into Mystrl, the first goddess of the Weave. (yes other creatures might have merged with the weave before, namely elves, but they are not as rash or as reckless, and probably merged themselves in a different manner, kind of like elves adding on different modules but Avrauntra merging with the whole operating system).
So there have been plenty of deities of magic over the years, one for each of the various pantheons, but none of them had control over the weave. Only following Avrauntra's merger did a god of the weave come into existence.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
  
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2015 : 08:23:43
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Very interesting thing you found dazzlerdal, this may really be the case. Although Ed said, that in his home Realms, Lurue is the deity of Magic. Although she may be more a primordial connected to it, or personifying it. Lurue is revered by the elves as Yathaghera, the Winged Queen, so no elf might have tried what Avrauntra did, as they would find having ones conciousness merged with the Weave, and in a way taking over it, as very heretical.
Although some sages theorized that Lurue personifies raw magic, and Mystryl/Mystra the Weave. |
Edited by - Baltas on 15 May 2015 08:26:11 |
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