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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
    
Australia
6679 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2014 : 16:57:35
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I think that there are mythallars still in existence in the Realms. My view however is that mythallars had different shapes and forms depending on the archwizard who crafted them. They weren't all huge spheres like the ones on Thultanthar and Sakkors - those were just the type that Telamont crafted.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
    
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2014 : 23:00:20
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Speculating on the origins (and age) of the Shadow Weave ...
It seems to me that although Shar is credited for control of the SW, it was far more likely originally possessed by her sometimes-underling Mask Shadowlord. Constructng and maintaining a hidden Weave for his own nefarious uses seems like a fine thing for Mask to occupy himself wiith.
Methinks the SW predates the Avatar Crisis, since the Return of the Archwizards trilogy (which introduced the Shadovar to the Realms) briefly outlines a bit of backstory wherein SW-using Shadovar agents visited places like Vaasa many generations or perhaps centuries prior to Shades arrival.
I believe the SW is described within some of the Arcane Ages material (set back when Mystryl still presided over the Weave), along with various mentions of shadow magic and shadowmages, although they werent referred to by name. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief

    
USA
36863 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2014 : 23:30:08
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quote: Originally posted by Ayrik
Speculating on the origins (and age) of the Shadow Weave ...
It seems to me that although Shar is credited for control of the SW, it was far more likely originally possessed by her sometimes-underling Mask Shadowlord. Constructng and maintaining a hidden Weave for his own nefarious uses seems like a fine thing for Mask to occupy himself wiith.
Methinks the SW predates the Avatar Crisis, since the Return of the Archwizards trilogy (which introduced the Shadovar to the Realms) briefly outlines a bit of backstory wherein SW-using Shadovar agents visited places like Vaasa many generations or perhaps centuries prior to Shades arrival.
I believe the SW is described within some of the Arcane Ages material (set back when Mystryl still presided over the Weave), along with various mentions of shadow magic and shadowmages, although they werent referred to by name.
If I had to, I'd link the creation of the Shadow Weave to Karsus's Ultimate Mistake. The nature of magic was changed, and the deity that had overseen the Weave since Day 1 was no more. It makes sense that that would be the opportunity for Shar to play with the new instabilities within the Weave and go from there. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
    
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 01:20:15
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I have minor issue accepting Shar behind the inception of the Shadow Weave.
First, it's the Shadow Weave. Not, say, the Dark Weave, Black Fabric, Oblivion Tapestry, nor any other such thing. Mask isn't really the best/first choice among Faerūnian deities who might conceive of an alternate Weave construct, his obsessions with intrigue and deception and manipulation do make him a passable candidate. And thieves across Faerūn would delight in shadow magics (although, admittedly, prior to the 3E-official Shadow Weave, they did not, lol). And, of course, Mask = dominion over Shadow, duh.
Secondly, perhaps more significantly, Shar's portfolios and powers really just do not suggest to me a deity who should really possess any capability or interest in creating such a subtle, complex, and lasting thing. Post-Shadovar lore depicted Shar making use of the Shadow Weave, and Post-Spellplague lore elevated Shar's menacing stature enough for her to make a solid claim on the matter. But I still recall ye good olde AD&D days when, to be honest, Shar was just another local (small-time) evil goddess without any grand multicosmic world-shattering consequence. Although this is just unashamed first-impression bias on my part, it's not something I can easily ignore. Shar has (opportunistically?) employed "her" Shadow Weave to moderate effect - but again, why? It just doesn't seem to fit the character concept. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief

    
USA
36863 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 12:48:17
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quote: Originally posted by Ayrik
I have minor issue accepting Shar behind the inception of the Shadow Weave.
First, it's the Shadow Weave. Not, say, the Dark Weave, Black Fabric, Oblivion Tapestry, nor any other such thing. Mask isn't really the best/first choice among Faerūnian deities who might conceive of an alternate Weave construct, his obsessions with intrigue and deception and manipulation do make him a passable candidate. And thieves across Faerūn would delight in shadow magics (although, admittedly, prior to the 3E-official Shadow Weave, they did not, lol). And, of course, Mask = dominion over Shadow, duh.
Secondly, perhaps more significantly, Shar's portfolios and powers really just do not suggest to me a deity who should really possess any capability or interest in creating such a subtle, complex, and lasting thing. Post-Shadovar lore depicted Shar making use of the Shadow Weave, and Post-Spellplague lore elevated Shar's menacing stature enough for her to make a solid claim on the matter. But I still recall ye good olde AD&D days when, to be honest, Shar was just another local (small-time) evil goddess without any grand multicosmic world-shattering consequence. Although this is just unashamed first-impression bias on my part, it's not something I can easily ignore. Shar has (opportunistically?) employed "her" Shadow Weave to moderate effect - but again, why? It just doesn't seem to fit the character concept.
To me, the biggest reason to hand it to Shar is because Mystryl was created from both Shar and Selūne... Since magic was thus part of Shar, it gives her a reason to be able to play with it. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
    
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 04:41:53
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Good names for Netherese places, people, etc? I can offer one:
Richter Thunderstaff, wild arcanist (then wild archwizard, then wild lich), pompous, bombastic, CE and hurtfully proud of it, known for his signature thunder staff spell. An NPC who, in the ancient Netheril of my Realms, was the discoverer and something of a pioneering genius in wild magic, megalomaniacally convinced that his new wild magic was far more powerful than any other magic the "ossified, close-minded, and spectacularly misguided" arcanists of Netheril had at their disposal. He, uh, kinda disappeared in an accidental wild surge, displaced into the middle of the Anauroch, circa Time of Troubles. I think of him as being to Netherese wild magic what Shadow (now known as Telamont) was to Netherese shadow magic. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
    
USA
2086 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2014 : 17:23:31
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Note the passage on page 97 in Lost Empires and A Grand History, page 28, about where the Netherese find the Scrolls (a ruin of Aryvandaar).
But then note the passage on page 103 in Lost Empires about finding it in the Citadel of the Mists, with a strong hint from the Terraseer.
I vaguely remember another reference about Aryvandaar hiding the Nether Scrolls, but I can't find it.
Why do you think the Nether Scrolls were originally in the Hall of Mists? (Reference?)
--Eric
quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Just put the fey'ri as another major threat to Netheril.
I can see why they were missed from the original supplement since they didnt exist when it was written, but i did a bit of checking and.
The Dlardrageths go to the High Forest around -5000 DR and create their five armouries (one of which is beneath the grandfather tree)
Siluvanede goes to war with Eaerlann and loses around -4500 DR.
Siluvanede still exists as a vassal state of Eaerlann and the fey'ri tieflings of Siluvanede retreat into hiding in the High Forest (using the four armouries of the Dlardrageths as bases - the fifth armoury known as the nameless dungeon was sealed by Eaerlann with some fey'ri in it).
The fey'ri cause a monster explosion in -2770 DR that destroys Sharrven, and they have a hand in the fall of Ascalhorn in 882 DR.
But in between that in -3533 DR the Netherese discover the Nether scrolls in one of the ruins of Aryvandaar. However the Nether Scrolls were kept originally in the Hall of Mists beneath the Grandfather Tree which Aryvandaar summoned atop the hall to stop others gaining access to it.
Now the elves (even the Vyshaan) regarded the Nether Scrolls as something so evil and powerful that none of them would touch it, so even the fey'ri who were hiding in the Hall of Mists probably wouldnt touch the scrolls.
I have the Netherese turn up, blast the fey'ri and run off with their weapons and the nether scrolls. The fey'ri now have a life long enmity against the Netherese, and elves live a long time, especially demon tainted elves.
Of course its all a bit more complicated than that, but thats the gist of the latest enemy of Netheril.
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-- http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
    
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2014 : 17:40:17
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I had that impression as well... probably from Savage Frontier or some similarly old source... on the region. Can't say for sure though. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
    
USA
2086 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2014 : 18:17:06
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Found it. Serpent Kingdoms page 97.
quote: Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I had that impression as well... probably from Savage Frontier or some similarly old source... on the region. Can't say for sure though.
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-- http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
    
USA
2086 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2014 : 20:48:17
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The Netheril boxed set is correct in placement ... "beyond the Far Forests" works.
The Netheril description is incorrect ... it should be a subterranean catacomb, methinks.
My reading of the sources, and reconciling alternate accounts:
The Nether Scrolls were found below what is now the Citadel of the Mists, which was built atop the only unplundered Dlardrageth Armory, which in turn was built amidst ancient ruins of Aryvandaar. (So an "Aryvandaaran ruin" is also correct.)
The discoverer of the Nether Scrolls was "Finder" (which I don't like) a distant descendant of Therion of Gers (not horrible) while he was an apprentice at Glaurachyndaar (which I do like) led by the nose by Arthindol (the Terraseer in the guise of a human Netherese archwizard). The scrolls were placed there by the Terraseer after he liberated them from the Hall of Mists, where they had lain for millennia.
--Eric
quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Unfortunately I wouldn't have been much help to you there since I only copy out the text into a big compiled document on different regions and never bother with the sources.
I had to assume that the Netheril boxed set was slightly incorrect since it mentioned a ruined building where the walls and ceilings were in use. But the Netheril boxed set seems to be always slightly incorrect which is why im rewriting it. I just need some names because i'll be damned if im going to write the word Conch into it.
I think I have everything else sorted out. I'm changing the role of some of the settlements entirely, for instance Unity is a dwarven and elven military camp set up in case of Netherese attack.
Sunrest isn't even a city enclave anymore, its a floating temple (first to Shar, then to Amaunator).
I came up with an idea for what the Seven Sigils refer to that has absolutely nothing to do with binding symbols on outer planar creatures.
I'm debating on having a giant invasion from the north in retaliation for melting the High Ice which destroys their territory.
But without names for the settlements I can't really start writing history down that involves them.
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-- http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief

    
USA
36863 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2014 : 22:06:38
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quote: Originally posted by ericlboyd
The Netheril boxed set is correct in placement ... "beyond the Far Forests" works.
The Netheril description is incorrect ... it should be a subterranean catacomb, methinks.
My reading of the sources, and reconciling alternate accounts:
The Nether Scrolls were found below what is now the Citadel of the Mists, which was built atop the only unplundered Dlardrageth Armory, which in turn was built amidst ancient ruins of Aryvandaar. (So an "Aryvandaaran ruin" is also correct.)
The discoverer of the Nether Scrolls was "Finder" (which I don't like) a distant descendant of Therion of Gers (not horrible) while he was an apprentice at Glaurachyndaar (which I do like) led by the nose by Arthindol (the Terraseer in the guise of a human Netherese archwizard). The scrolls were placed there by the Terraseer after he liberated them from the Hall of Mists, where they had lain for millennia.
--Eric
quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Unfortunately I wouldn't have been much help to you there since I only copy out the text into a big compiled document on different regions and never bother with the sources.
I had to assume that the Netheril boxed set was slightly incorrect since it mentioned a ruined building where the walls and ceilings were in use. But the Netheril boxed set seems to be always slightly incorrect which is why im rewriting it. I just need some names because i'll be damned if im going to write the word Conch into it.
I think I have everything else sorted out. I'm changing the role of some of the settlements entirely, for instance Unity is a dwarven and elven military camp set up in case of Netherese attack.
Sunrest isn't even a city enclave anymore, its a floating temple (first to Shar, then to Amaunator).
I came up with an idea for what the Seven Sigils refer to that has absolutely nothing to do with binding symbols on outer planar creatures.
I'm debating on having a giant invasion from the north in retaliation for melting the High Ice which destroys their territory.
But without names for the settlements I can't really start writing history down that involves them.
"Finder" could be a corruption of a more difficult name, or a simplified nickname -- I once worked with a girl who went by Nancy, but her real name was Anayansi.
"Finder" could have been Fynn Daer, or Faendyr, or Finneldar... |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
   
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2014 : 23:47:16
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Expanding Wooly's idea, there's plenty of precedent for Netherese things having multiple names due to translation. Mostly places, but there's no reason a "folk hero" type of figure wouldn't have been translated as well since stories are frequently told about heroes and names are not always pronounceable by natives of other lands.
So, theory:
He had a real name... we don't know what that was.
He was later given a nickname for his discovery, by much later generations who found the nickname more appropriate name or easier to say than his original name. (Maybe like the wizard known as Mentor?)
That nickname was later translated into Thorass as Finder, and this is the only name the living nations of the Realms know for him. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
    
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2014 : 00:44:46
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Consider that the Netherese probably only named their enclaves and some important places for their enclaves to resupply, trade, claim resources, etc. The vast majority of Netheril appears to have already been populated by various peoples who likely kept their own names for places and features which the enclave-centric Netherese citizens would have little interest in ever visiting. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
    
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2014 : 01:33:16
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Only problem with all this is that the Hall of Mists and the Citadel of the Mists are two different places separated by a large distance. Both are in the northern reaches of the High Forest, but by my estimation they are at least 140 miles apart (using the maps from The North).
I see no way to reconcile the discrepancy aside from assuming it was a mistake made by one of the writers remembering what he read in the earlier source incorrectly.
To me it makes sense that the Nether Scrolls were found in the Hall of Mists - which are guarded by the Godfather Tree - an ancient Arakhor. To me, it seems the Nether scrolls are exactly the kind of dangerous artifact they would want protected by such a being. The Halls were likely originally halls of the Vyshanti of Aryvandaar - then later occupied by the Dlardrageth of Siluvanede. Then sealed and warded after their defeat and used as one of the places dark horrors from the past are locked away - including the scrolls.
"The Citadel Of The Mists" was built around 1300 DR on top of old elven ruins (rough date is also from The North). To me this means that when the Nether Scrolls were found, there was no Citadel of the Mists and so would never have been remembered as anything but a random ruin. I'm thinking it was also a Vyshan fortress but was destroyed in the 5th Crown War and the ruins were eventually buried by the forest and forgotten, until the Mistmaster and his mates discovered them, built a fortress, and began their role as guardians of the ancient secrets they found in the cellars below.
THIS WAS A RESPONSE TO PAGE 2... SOMEHOW I LANDED THERE AND MISSED THE LATEST DISCUSSION - THE TERRASEER MOVING THE SCROLLS WOULD WORK BY WAY OF AN EXPLANATION OF THE DISCREPANCY |
Edited by - The Masked Mage on 04 Sep 2014 01:46:28 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
    
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2014 : 01:38:07
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I would assume that he was called "The Finder" not just finder. His other accomplishments never amounted to much so he is remembered by the description of his great accomplishment - finding the scrolls. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
    
United Kingdom
6374 Posts |
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