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Chest Rockwell
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 03:23:29
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Wizards are always described as having to learn to do magic, as opposed to sorcerers who are born with innate magic. This seems to imply then that anyone with even slightly above average intelligence should be capable of learning magic, so why aren't there more wizards? I realize most won't be smart enough to become master wizards, but what about the really low level stuff?
Or is it just that wizards are born with the innate ability to do magic if they decide to learn? So if they don't decide to learn, they won't ever show any magic?
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 03:41:35
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This has always been an interesting question to me. I certainly like the idea that if a PC was going through the motions of a dreary life and found an old "starter" spellbook and with lots of practice and reading they'd be slinging a spell or two in time. Maybe it's because a person can relate more to a situation like that as opposed to being one naturally gifted with the Art.
I'd always assumed there were both types. Canon wise I'm not sure, but I bet more knowledgeable scribes will be able to tell more. Or perhaps THO if we're lucky. :) |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 04:08:42
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| I've always imagined it to be like math or programming. Some people can just pick them up without much prior instruction. Some need training, others can't get it at all. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 04:43:48
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| Well Intelligence is required rules side of thing to be a Wizard, Wisdom required to be a Cleric, later Editions looked to charisma as well. In all cases what clearly appears to have metal abilities in order to use a form of magic. So indeed any with a Stat of 10 in one of those three can decide to learn to cast a 0 level spell. There clearly are some characters with higher then that in perhaps all three that decide they rather devote time to weapons or the easy gift of the unwary. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1270 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 04:51:45
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As Eilserus stated, I'm not sure about canon, but I've always thought anyone can learn, given the right time and equipment (books, teachers, natural talent.) Depending on what edition you're using, there might be a minimum Intelligence Score to cast spells of a given level. If you have a 8 Intelligence, you're just too dumb to cast any spells. However, if you kept putting points into your intelligence when you leveled, you'd eventually be smart enough to cast low level spells.
So, in 3E at least, you could learn given time and experience.
In Basic 5E, unless I'm missing it, I don't see such a prerequisite. Your spells will simply be easy to resist/dodge. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
Edited by - Delwa on 08 Aug 2014 04:53:54 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 00:50:03
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Yes, yes, three times yes!
Anyone, ANYONE, can learn magic by just ordering the Patent-Pending Korth-O-Matic Magic-For-Everybody(tm) Wizard Kit! Just send $99.99 (in four easy payments!) CO: Korth for your own free information starter booklet. For a limited time only. And, if you are one of the first 500 customers, you also get the Korth-O-Matic Magic-For-Dummies(tm) instructional manual. Amaze your friends, family, pets, even clueless strangers! Summon lightning at parties! Give your boss a gust of wind! Teleport past that daily commute! Anything you wish for can come true! |
[/Ayrik] |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 03:21:00
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| What address? I wouldn't mind planewalking over to Toril for a bit. Or slinging a meteor swarm or ten at some real bad guys. ;) |
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Jaynz
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 03:23:37
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It's a little known secret that there have been LOTS of low-level mages, but most of them die when their lone d4+1 magic missile fails to kill the now-pissed kobold charging at them with a d10 spear. ;)
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 03:50:35
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| Well to be fair it's kind of like saying "Anyone can become a martial artist" but most don't. With magic there's probably a lot of theory and stuff you need to get down before you can manifest anything at all. Also, some people probably have a magical aptitude for magic, without being full on sorcerers. |
Edited by - Roseweave on 09 Aug 2014 03:51:01 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 05:35:40
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In some older sources (no idea which off the top of my head), magical aptitude was something that could be tested for with negative and positive results. To me this says that no, not everyone can use magic. If memory serves, Elminster conducts such a test at one point - poking the testee and getting a result.
If anyone remembers what that was from please fill in the hole in my mind :P |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 05:38:43
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Well, prior to the 3E era, dwarves couldn't learn arcane magic. Dwarven blood just resisted magic, they couldn't even operate many useable-by-anybody magic items without difficulty.
Did dwarves lack some intrinsic magic gene? Or, instead, did dwarves possess some intrinsic magic-blocking gene? Whatever the reason may be, apparently post-2E dwarves have no difficulty becoming wizards and sorcerers.
Volo's Guide to All Things Magical offers the explanation that - in the Realms - all but the rarest individuals possesses some hint of inborn magic ability. Even those who don't become spellcasters quite often manifest some limited ability to cast magic (duplicating a specific known spell, usually) as a natural talent. However, most people are never exposed to whatever specific conditions trigger this magic use, or they somehow reject it, or they allow their latent power to atrophy through lack of use. The way it's written strongly suggests (to me, at least) that many people should have minimal natural ability to cast a spell when they're young and precocious, even if most lose it while maturing. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 11:38:11
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| Don't forget that most ordinary folk spend most of their time just trying to eke out a living and survive. So you could say money and plenty of time are also factors. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 12:37:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Well, prior to the 3E era, dwarves couldn't learn arcane magic. Dwarven blood just resisted magic, they couldn't even operate many useable-by-anybody magic items without difficulty.
Did dwarves lack some intrinsic magic gene? Or, instead, did dwarves possess some intrinsic magic-blocking gene? Whatever the reason may be, apparently post-2E dwarves have no difficulty becoming wizards and sorcerers.
Volo's Guide to All Things Magical offers the explanation that - in the Realms - all but the rarest individuals possesses some hint of inborn magic ability. Even those who don't become spellcasters quite often manifest some limited ability to cast magic (duplicating a specific known spell, usually) as a natural talent. However, most people are never exposed to whatever specific conditions trigger this magic use, or they somehow reject it, or they allow their latent power to atrophy through lack of use. The way it's written strongly suggests (to me, at least) that many people should have minimal natural ability to cast a spell when they're young and precocious, even if most lose it while maturing.
Yeah, I never did quite get the whole "dwarves can't use magic" thing given that so many Norse stories had the dwarves being magically oriented. My personal take on it would be more on the lines of the dwarven mindset was too "rigid". Similarly, my take on halflings not having arcane casters would be their minds are too "wandering" in general. Then, later lore proves that it can happen, its just more rare. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1270 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 15:23:25
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One of my friends likes to tell a story of a half-orc Barbarian he once played. The Barbarian was fascinated by magic, and studiously kept an eye on the party mage like a curious child. Anytime the mage was studying his spell book, the half orc was studying over the mage's shoulder. If he was casting a spell, instead of fighting, the half orc was paying very meticulous attention to the verbal, somatic, and material components.
At several points, the party was engaged with some big "final boss" type monster, getting their butts whipped, and they look back to see the half orc frantically gesturing in a corner, yelling, "me think me got it!" Trying to cast a fireball.
Point is, you can learn magic given the right conditions, but it's up to the DM what those conditions are. I'd personally allow him to gain a feat that granted a Cantrip or something, or just let him cross class into a mage if he roleplayed his desire well. But generally, if a race isn't prone to magic, you've got to give me a compelling reason to play the character and act it out in game. Don't just roll up a Kender mage and never roleplay the fact that you are rare as hen's teeth (and scary.)
But that's my opinion. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 23:22:56
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The pre-3E take on Norse-liked dwarves was basically a bard variant called a Skald. Not able to cast spells, but instead utterly impervious to them.
And, of course, dwarves can use clerical magic. They could be multi-classed clerics since earliest AD&D. Kinda weird, really, when you think about it, that dwarves could be healers but could not be blasters. Even though theres a fair overlap between arcane and divine magic, and plenty of blasting options available to priests. And, in the Realms, even arcane magic is fundamentally granted by a deity, so the difference seems almost nominal. Except that dwarves didnt like arcane-flavoured magic items. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 23:51:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The pre-3E take on Norse-liked dwarves was basically a bard variant called a Skald. Not able to cast spells, but instead utterly impervious to them.
And, of course, dwarves can use clerical magic. They could be multi-classed clerics since earliest AD&D. Kinda weird, really, when you think about it, that dwarves could be healers but could not be blasters. Even though theres a fair overlap between arcane and divine magic, and plenty of blasting options available to priests. And, in the Realms, even arcane magic is fundamentally granted by a deity, so the difference seems almost nominal. Except that dwarves didnt like arcane-flavoured magic items.
The thing that bugged me in 2E about dwarves not using arcane magic was the number of magic weapons and armor they produced... They couldn't cast spells, but were somehow able to enchant items well enough... I was fiddling with a system to explain this when 3E came out and gave magic back to the dwarves (and failed to explain this change, in the Realms). |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 23:59:54
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| 2nd E dwarves had there own version of magic centered on runes and chanting. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2014 : 00:14:02
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| Well Basic D&D and I believe even AD&D did allow for Clerics to produce magical items. They had to at times use spells, however also had to pray for blessing on the item from their deity. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2014 : 00:28:29
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Here is the intro to the magic section of dwarves deep - the rationalization straight from Ed:
This section details the more common priest spells unique to the dwarves. Elminster warns there are others, although he knows of no dwarven wizards, and believes the inherent magic resistance of "trueblood" dwarves makes their mastery of wizardry impossible. Strangely, this applies to learned, memorized spells, not to spell-like natural powers. Such powers are possessed by all duergar and High Old Ones (high-level dwarven priests), and, apparently at random, by a few dwarves of other classes and sub-races.
Dwarven priests cast spells as clerics of other races do, with one important difference: spell energies are always channelled through a stone holy symbol worn next to the skin or grasped by the cleric. Without this stabilizing spell focus, dwarven clerical spells are 40 percent likely to go "wild" when cast. This instability is also the reason most dwarven clerical spells involve material components, fragments of the prime material plane not subject to any innate magical resistance. |
Edited by - The Masked Mage on 12 Aug 2014 00:30:13 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2014 : 00:29:37
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| Unless it was clerical magic, I would love to know how Ed envisioned dwarves creating enchanted arms and armor etc. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2014 : 00:40:03
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| I would also direct you to the Arcane Lore articles in Dragon 129 and Annual 3, as well as the Heart of the Forge article in Dragon 245 (that is the one that details chant magic). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2014 : 01:07:28
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Arms and armour are created at the forge, of course (alongside horseshoes, nails, hinges and clasps, beltbuckles and coatpins, shovels, and countless other sundry items).
The true attributes of a smith are not his knowledge of metallurgy, nor his technical skill, nor his hardened muscles, nor his tremendous endurance (although dwarves are unsurpassed in all these areas). A master smith (or any master craftsman) possesses creativity, talent, and intelligence. In short, he creates art, he is an artist. Magic in the Realms is called "The Art" for a reason.
It takes a long time to make quality items at the forge. And a dwarf will not build anything which isn't a quality item. All that toil and blood and fire and craft seems like a great way to pound enchantments into previously inert chunks of metal. I can easily imagine dwarven artificers following (or inventing) proscribed rituals which take months or years to enchant a suit of armour fit for a dwarven lord. Call it a ton of somatic components, some material components (likely including some exotic mystical alloys or gemstones or somesuch), and - yes - even a tirelessly rhythmic chanting verbal component. It seems impossible to say whether or not any clerical energy source really is required, since dwarves as a lot tend to be stubbornly ritualistic Moradin-loving Dethek rune freaks anyhow. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Aug 2014 01:09:42 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2014 : 03:32:26
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Re: dwarven mages:-
I'll also note that there were [although very rare] instances of dwarven wizards in 2e. Behring was one, a 3rd-level Wizard, Male Dwarf, CN, and who lives in Daggerford. 'Tis one of the rare dwarves who can wield magic, The North: Daggerford.
Also well, Steven Schend put into The Lost Level adventure an option allowing anyone to become a dwarf and retain their skills. As I recall, that was one of the weirder ways in 2e to allow for dwarven wizards... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1281 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2014 : 03:38:08
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| I believe Volo's Guide To All Things Magical had a whole section on who can cast magic and innate spell use from non-wizards randomly occurring. But that was 2E and several Mystra's ago... |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2014 : 04:41:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Well, prior to the 3E era, dwarves couldn't learn arcane magic. Dwarven blood just resisted magic, they couldn't even operate many useable-by-anybody magic items without difficulty.
Did dwarves lack some intrinsic magic gene? Or, instead, did dwarves possess some intrinsic magic-blocking gene? Whatever the reason may be, apparently post-2E dwarves have no difficulty becoming wizards and sorcerers.
Back in 2e, I noted Laduguer was the dwarven god of magic (per both Monster Mythology and Demihuman Deities). It always struck me as fairly logical to assume that the trouble the dwarves had with magic was result of their god of magic being exiled. Which suggested to me that dwarves could potentially, in fact, become wizards -- in the general if Laduguer were reconciled to the Morndinsamman, in the particular if the dwarf who wished to become a wizard underwent a metaphysical exile to join Laduguer. Which came with lots of story potential -- a dwarf who explored arcane magic would eventually reach the point where he had to turn his back on Moradin in order to reach his goal, and if he ever used arcane magic in public, everyone would know he had. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 07:09:41
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I like your Laduguer hypothesis, see. It offers an explanation for dwarven lack of magic anywhere dwarves might be found, not only the Realms.
The obvious question is whether Laduguers status somehow changed circa 3E as the reason why dwarves could suddenly become something they were denied before.
Too bad there isnt much D&D fiction about demihuman races, stories about who the dwarves and dragons and orcs really are and about why they are as they are. Dragonlance fared better in this regard, basically drawing a setting wherein each race played a major role in a greater tapestry. Realms fiction suffers from humanocentricism and too many half-immortal superhumans, IMO, portraying elves and dwarves (and whatever other splatbook flavour-of-the-week nonhuman species is currently popular) as props to fill out the hero party with some technicolour candy. Admittedly, elves (especially Drizzt) have garnered the lions share of attention, as has their magic, but detailed in ways that provide more game mechanics, not more unique nonhuman racial culture and identity. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 14:44:51
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That's a really good theory; I quite like it.
I still remain irked at the way the 3E FRCS had the chance to address this and failed to do so. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 20:47:17
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Just on Dwarves and Magic, some things should be noted. As per Faiths and Pantheons the following deities have some oversight over Dwarves and magic.
1. Deep Duerra has the portfolio of psionics.
2. Laduguer has the portfolio of magic weapon creation and magic.
3. Dugmaren Brightmantle has the portfolio of scholarship, and has listed among his worshipers both runecasters and wizards.
It should be noted that Laduguer's worshipers are listed as Dwarves, fighters, loremasters, and soldiers - not runecasters and wizards. The only overlap he has in worshipers with Dugmaren is loremasters.
It should also be noted that Laduguer is listed as being "tolerated" by Dugmaren and Sharindlar; while the rest of the Dwarven deities hold him in deep scorn.
If I had to make a guess, I'd imagine most dwarven wizards have Dugmaren Brightmantle as their patron, but may pay a silent respect to "the Exile" as the deity of magic - unless they are duergar. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2014 : 02:01:38
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quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Well, prior to the 3E era, dwarves couldn't learn arcane magic. Dwarven blood just resisted magic, they couldn't even operate many useable-by-anybody magic items without difficulty.
Did dwarves lack some intrinsic magic gene? Or, instead, did dwarves possess some intrinsic magic-blocking gene? Whatever the reason may be, apparently post-2E dwarves have no difficulty becoming wizards and sorcerers.
Back in 2e, I noted Laduguer was the dwarven god of magic (per both Monster Mythology and Demihuman Deities). It always struck me as fairly logical to assume that the trouble the dwarves had with magic was result of their god of magic being exiled. Which suggested to me that dwarves could potentially, in fact, become wizards -- in the general if Laduguer were reconciled to the Morndinsamman, in the particular if the dwarf who wished to become a wizard underwent a metaphysical exile to join Laduguer. Which came with lots of story potential -- a dwarf who explored arcane magic would eventually reach the point where he had to turn his back on Moradin in order to reach his goal, and if he ever used arcane magic in public, everyone would know he had.
WOW, I REALLY like that. I like the idea that the duergar had psionicists, wizards, and clerics.... and possibly others like warmages, dread necromancers, and maybe even binders. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2014 : 02:11:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Just on Dwarves and Magic, some things should be noted. As per Faiths and Pantheons the following deities have some oversight over Dwarves and magic.
1. Deep Duerra has the portfolio of psionics.
2. Laduguer has the portfolio of magic weapon creation and magic.
3. Dugmaren Brightmantle has the portfolio of scholarship, and has listed among his worshipers both runecasters and wizards.
It should be noted that Laduguer's worshipers are listed as Dwarves, fighters, loremasters, and soldiers - not runecasters and wizards. The only overlap he has in worshipers with Dugmaren is loremasters.
It should also be noted that Laduguer is listed as being "tolerated" by Dugmaren and Sharindlar; while the rest of the Dwarven deities hold him in deep scorn.
If I had to make a guess, I'd imagine most dwarven wizards have Dugmaren Brightmantle as their patron, but may pay a silent respect to "the Exile" as the deity of magic - unless they are duergar.
I'd say this is a good idea as well... I submit that perhaps Dugmaren's followers rediscovered lost arcane lore that Laduguer's followers were hoarding.
From Demi-human Deities:
The Order of the Lost Tome is a loosely structured fellowship of errant dwarven scholars dedicated to the recovery of lost dwarven lore for the benefit of kingdoms and clan holds throughout the Realms. Individual Knights of the Lost Tome usually work alone or in the company of dwarven and nondwarven adventurers unaffiliated with the order. They combine their passion for knowledge and investigative abilities with the martial skills necessary to defeat the current occupants of fallen dwarven strongholds thought to contain examples of
and treatises on lost dwarven lore. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Can anyone learn magic?
