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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Mar 2018 : 14:28:30
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In a way, I was thinking more along the lines of Manifest (which would need a better, more Katashaka appropriate name), would need to be unattached to the Sleeper. Only because there’s a whole continent to fill up and I think if everything revolves around the tarrasque, Katashaka becomes a one trick pony.
I was still hoping to incorporate some major African themes to Kat, and I could see Ghostwalk having a city of the dead somewhere in the savannah where the dead don’t stay dead but also don’t fit the typical undead city trope that exists in a dozen other spots.
Of course the local tribes of wemics wouldn’t see it that way and avoid it at all costs. Perhaps it is forbidden to approach by their own giant lion nyamma-nummo that they worship (possibly a vassal or even enemy to the Cat Lord who is now canonically worshiped in the area).
Sorry my thoughts are all over this morning. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2018 : 16:23:25
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Yeah, after reading through some of the ghostwalk stuff late last night, I wasn't feeling very inspired. The whole thing was ver hit-or-miss. My biggest concern with it is that it was pointless. They made the 'ghosts' just like the living in Manifest, so they sucked the one cool thing the setting had going for it right out.
Gamer: "So whats so cool about Ghostwalk?"
Designer: "Its a city of ghosts!"
Gamer: "Cool, cool... tell me more."
Designer: "The ghosts are JUST like people!"
Gamer: "Ummm, what do you mean?"
Designer: "Well, they are solid, and they can be killed by regular weapons!"
Gamer: "So, uh... its just a city of regular people?" 
Designer: "No they're ghosts!"
Gamer: "So, like the things in the Monster Manuals?"
Designer: "NO! Nothing like them! They have no special powers... they're just the spirits of dead people... who are exactly like they were when they were alive... except they are NOT alive!"
Gamer: "So, undead?"
Designer: "NO! They HATE undead! These aren't monsters... they're just ordinary people."
Gamer: "So you managed to somehow talk WotC into publishing your terrible idea?"
Designer: "Precisely! Now you are finally getting it!"
That's the impression I am left with. They took the barest kernal of a decent idea, and then sucked all the possible flavor right out of it. It may have made a decent setting wrapped around its own set of rules, but too many compromises had to be made to get it to fit into normal D&D. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2018 : 17:09:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Well, the Katashaka and Chult mythology, appear to take a lot of inspiration from Yoruba mythology - Olurobo appears to be inspired by Olorun/Olodumare, and Ubtao by Obatala, both gods from Yoruba religion/mythology (although Ubtao has some elements of Quetzalcoatl).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olodumare
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olorun
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obatala
So I propose to translate Manifest, into the Yorube language - it being "O Farahan". Alternatelly, it could be named after the first city in Yoruba mythology, which also is an actuall city - Ife:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ife
That’s a great bit of information. Thank you so much! I honestly had no idea where the inspiration originated and now we have a whole culture to mine.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, after reading through some of the ghostwalk stuff late last night, I wasn't feeling very inspired. The whole thing was ver hit-or-miss. My biggest concern with it is that it was pointless. They made the 'ghosts' just like the living in Manifest, so they sucked the one cool thing the setting had going for it right out.
I don’t know. I find the uniqueness refreshing. Had it been just another city of the dead I’m sure it wouldn’t even be remembered at this point.
But in a lot of ways, you’re right too. There is a kernel of a great idea - but it wasn’t done quite right imho. That’s what makes it so much fun to fix. That’s how I always felt about Maztica itself to be perfectly honest. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2018 : 00:10:33
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So, today i was thinking about the giant pantheon, even though I'm not currently working on Katshaka (and as I've said multiple times, my Katshaka started out as a conversion of Xen'drik, which is giant-heavy). Anyhow, I cam across something that might interest you, Seethyr...
quote:
The ettins are said to have descended from Grolantor and a monstrous serpent with a head on both ends of her coiled body.
And, for mine and Sleyvas work on Katashaka...
quote:
Hiatea proved herself with a series of daring feats, culmunating in an epic battle with a great monster, sometimes named as a Lernaean hydra with fifty heads and sometimes as the Tarrasque.
And something that might be related to the above two, or something from the 'Before Time' (involving Annam as a Primordial)
quote:
Memnor is variously said to be the son, brother, or enemy of Annam, the giant god of creation. One myth says he was born from the severed head or ripped-out entrails of a titanic, sub-sentient, planet-eating monster slain by Annam or Stronmaus.
So in the 'early years' (pre-Sundering), it seems giants were responsible for killing-off many 'titanic monsters', and we can use this. I now have an actual canon tie-in of the giants binding/defeating the Terrasque. 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2018 : 06:47:19
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Nearing completion - this will likely be the last version I post here without it being a finished product. In the meantime, perhaps you might enjoy some of the creatures in it.
TWC7 Monsters DRAFT
I would love to hear any feedback - particularly if I have any glaring typos or you feel like something is wrong. If the artist picks up the pace a bit, I could finally get this out (2 years in the making tbh!).
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Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
Edited by - Seethyr on 04 Apr 2018 06:47:51 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2018 : 09:12:18
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Also, about the Tarrasque spawning other, similar monsters, a similar idea appeared in the recent "Godzilla: Planet of the Monsters" anime movie - the original Godzilla (called Godzilla Earth, to symbolize how he rulled Earth for 20 thousands years) - who is 300 meters/over 1000 feet tall - spawned another Godzilla - the 50 meter/164 feet high Godzilla Filius, and the flying Servum - (controlled by Godzilla Filius, hence ther name - Servum - latin for "Slave").
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2018 : 21:42:14
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Has anyone used the “Going Ape!” adventure from Dungeon 192? It’s a 4e adventure that I’m trying to convert for my players. It is set in a Mayan setting and seems like it could be used in its entirety (even though great apes seem a little out of place).
If you own it, would you like me to post my conversion notes when complete? |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2018 : 21:10:14
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Yay! 
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Has anyone used the “Going Ape!” adventure from Dungeon 192? It’s a 4e adventure that I’m trying to convert for my players. It is set in a Mayan setting and seems like it could be used in its entirety (even though great apes seem a little out of place).
I have placed those locales in Chult, north of Samarach (and linked it to the two earlier Dungeon Magazine AP's when Paizo was still working with WotC, and we had all those wonderful FR conversion notes).
I tied it to the lore I had where Samarach was taken-over (sort of) by the ex-patriate Mazticans who were in Amn. One of these days I will get back to that massive, multi-conversion project (it also contained all the Abeir locales which I spread throughout the Chultlan 'arm').
On another note, for those of you interested in or working things 'further afield' (more northerly) - the mock-up map I did showing all the 'Western Realms' (everything 'across the sea', including Evermeet - all three continents plus MANY islands), so some of Slevas' (?) material on the Metahel may be able to be tied in here...
Anyhow, I was looking for a certain quote (which I am starting to think doesn't exist), going through every source I could find that covers 'ancient elves' and related events, and I found something I hadn't ever noticed before: check out the Four Sons entry on pg.59 of LEoF! I am thinking there is some secret 'island base' with a 'lost kingdom' of Aryvandaar elves! I am picturing it in the north, among all those islands leading from Anchoromé to the far NW corner of Faerûn, but it could just as easily be placed south somewhere, like among the islands of Eskember. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Apr 2018 21:12:41 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2018 : 23:19:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yay!
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Has anyone used the “Going Ape!” adventure from Dungeon 192? It’s a 4e adventure that I’m trying to convert for my players. It is set in a Mayan setting and seems like it could be used in its entirety (even though great apes seem a little out of place).
I have placed those locales in Chult, north of Samarach (and linked it to the two earlier Dungeon Magazine AP's when Paizo was still working with WotC, and we had all those wonderful FR conversion notes).
I tied it to the lore I had where Samarach was taken-over (sort of) by the ex-patriate Mazticans who were in Amn. One of these days I will get back to that massive, multi-conversion project (it also contained all the Abeir locales which I spread throughout the Chultlan 'arm').
That’s an interesting placement. So much of Maztican lore is based on how Faerun affected the True World while only really a small blurb on the scorpionfolk of Oaxaptupa is he only word on the reverse.
My only issue is that Going Ape! References some ancient history and ruins that would require this to have occurred long before the invasion of the Golden Legion. Either that or a serious rewrite of Going Ape itself. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 01:31:06
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On another note and topic. I almost started a seperate thread for this because its something I've been pondering for a few years and I had an "aha" moment today.
It's about Qotal. Let's be honest, he's supposed to really be the divine hero of Maztica. He's the premeire god of good, yet he has done some truly terrible (I'd say unforgiveable) things. I mean, he seriously forced himself on his sister - I don't even like talking about that nor bringing it up but for this I have to. He's also come across as awful pissy in the novels and he tended to ignore the suffering his battles with Zaltec incurred. This eventually drove his high priest (Lotil, I believe? I have to reread my notes) to abandon his vow of silence and literally berate his god as he fought Zaltec!
I'm trying to imagine a way to make him less culpable in all this and to rectify the situation. That's flat out impossible in the case of Kiltzi, but in Diamond Eyes, I at least tried to make it happen due to Shar's evil influence.
Pushing that all aside, because frankly, I have to - now I'm looking to rectify or excuse his other behavior, so I started to think about the "sacrifice" he made back in the original battle of the gods. If you don't know the lore, long ago the gods called upon their worshipers to built a grand temple in the middle of the desert. Every god did this, and at the site, Zaltec and Qotal were destined to do battle. Before the battle (which Qotal won) each god had a sacrifice performed. Zaltec had his priests cut out the hearts of thousands of warriors, but Qotal simply released 13 butterflies. As they passed over the corpses of the dead faithful of Zaltec all the blood and gore was washed away.
When I read that, I didn't quite understand how it was a sacrifice, as you are probably wondering yourself now.
Well, what if it actually was a very important sacrifice for Qotal? What if he invested much of his divine power into those 13 butterflies as a gift to mankind and Qotal got ticked off that man did not understand what he had done for them? Perhaps Qotal has been truly a humble hero all along? I am contemplating writing up a short article on these 13 butterflies. Perhaps they exist somewhere still in the True World?
Since Lotil died after blashpeming his god, maybe Qotal has resurrected or returned Lotil as some form of good undead to write the true story of Qotal's sacrifice? Might be a nice DMSGuild write up? He could have written about the supposed powers of these butterflies (which take the form of jewelery and are now artifacts?
Here's the brainstorm of what their powers may be...
ALL: Possessing one of the 13 allows you to have inspiration once between long rests. This follows the normal rules of inspiration and you can't get "additional" inspiration in a day otherwise. Owning a piece of divinity like this would certainly make it reasonable.
ALL: Two minor powers from the DMG
ALL: Have one incredibly powerful use that is really only for story, not to ruin a campaign. Once used, the butterfly disappears and its power is lost temporarily to the cosmos until it gathers again somewhere for mankind to find when in need once again.
Butterfly 1: Can transform into some type of gargantuan sized butterfly. The butterfly cannot attack, but it can transport an entire population of refugees in a case of extreme duress.
Butterfly 2: Similar use to 1, except it can part a giant sea like the Staff of Moses - again for some form of Exodus.
Butterfly 3: Can imprison a creature of near godlike ability (something tarrasque-like). The problem is, if it is used again in a few centuries, its prior prisoner is released!
Butterfly 4: It can come alive and fly across barren land, making flowers bloom, water bubble to the surface, etc. This could be a great way to explain how Tukan was formed.
Butterfly 5: Can ressurect a being of great power, perhaps even return a fallen god or goddess (might use it to resurrect Maztica herself!)
Butterfly 6: Can fundamentally change the nature of hundreds of creatures. I would use this to explain the plumed behemoths from TWC7. Essentially, this is how Qotal protected his flock during their exile in Abeir.
Butterfly 7: Can cause one creature to fully love another. I'd like to think that Qotal's major flaw is that he truly does not understand love in its human incarnation. He thought an ability like this would be something good for humanity but such an item would be rife for corruption from Shar.
Butterfly 8: Can temporarily change the motion of a celestial object. In the Maztica Alive campaign, every time there is a solar eclipse, star demons known as tzitzimitl wreak havoc on Maztica. This could be used to stop it from happening (adventure hook!).
Butterfly 9: Can alter weather patterns dramatically for an extended period of time.
Butterfly 10: Can allow for a direct audience with the Plumed Dragon himself. Not like you might in some type of commune spell, but rather where you get to speak for a time almost on equal footing.
Butterfly 11: Creates a massive ziggurat/temple in the way a Daern's Instant Fortress would work.
Butterfly 12: Can briefly infuse a character with Qotal's divine essence, allowing him to polymorph into a massive plumed dragon. Like all other abilites, it only can work once.
Butterfly 13: Lotil does not know of this power and Qotal does not speak of it. For the DM to decide.
What do you think? |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 01:38:19
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I beleived I detailed my plans somewhere around here. If it wasn't this thread, perhaps my mapping one?
The idea is that after the Spellplague struck, Amn was in such disarray from its wars with the Ogre army and Tethyr (although I don't think it ever came to blows with Tethyr - they just got a bunch of their stuff annexed and couldn't do a thing about it because of the ogres), that they Spellplague proved to be too much, and the country was completely falling apart (civil unrest and possible civil war even), that they felt the very large number of Mazticans they had brought over (I actually did the math and I figured out how many slaves could fit in a hundred ships) could prove to be dangerous new threat, because they could no longer spare any forces to deal with them, and they were housed right outside the capitol.
So it was decided to drop them all off in Samarach, which 'got emptied' by the Spellplague (not really, and not fully - just the coastal settlements had been wiped-out), and the first 50 ships worth got dropped off, but then the ship captains got greedy (they are Amnians, after all), and tried to sell them in Narubel. However, once they got there, the slaves realized they weren't going to be freed, and they overpowered their handlers and escaped into the jungle... which just happens to be north of where the original group got dropped off. I forget why I did it that way - I had a storyline for it (I'll have to find the thread).
In the meantime, the newly arrived Mazticans in Samarach started rebuilding the Samarach settlements along the coast, only to find a great number of Samarach had survived inland, in the mountains. While this was going on and the two groups decide to work together for mutual survival, the Spellplague was still going on, and strange people and terrain kept popping up all over the place (possibly from Abeir, but I was also considering Hepmonaland and the Hollow World of Mystara, among others). For whatever reasons, locales with similar cultures showing up, and some of them were quite ancient. Eventually things settled down and stabilized, and today, Samarach is a hybrid of the original Chultan culture, as well as that of psuedo-MesoAmercan cultures from a dozen worlds, and although there was huge language barrier at first, that was a few generations ago, and by 5e the population is mostly of mixed decent along the coast, with rural villages inland that still favor one culture/language over another (they've all adapted to toril-common by now, beside their local dialects).
I did this in order to have our Aztec-like region 'closer to home', without having to go across the ocean. I'll try to post a snippet of that very incomplete map (its just the locales added to an expanded version of my 5e map, so the terrain is blurry).
EDIT:
I found it - I started talking about 'fixing' samarach on pg.5 of my Map thread, and then it went on for the next page or so as I tweaked stuff, and then ZeromaruX suggested the Going Ape adventure, and I placed that as well.
You can see what I did on this map snippet - that was a very early WIP of the project that I may or may not ever get back to. I just wanted to see if I could fit ALL of Laerakond's locales in the Tashalr region without disturbing stuff that was already there. Turns out, I COULD.
You can see the Going Ape locales over there in Samarach. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Apr 2018 03:14:31 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 02:48:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yay!
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Has anyone used the “Going Ape!” adventure from Dungeon 192? It’s a 4e adventure that I’m trying to convert for my players. It is set in a Mayan setting and seems like it could be used in its entirety (even though great apes seem a little out of place).
I have placed those locales in Chult, north of Samarach (and linked it to the two earlier Dungeon Magazine AP's when Paizo was still working with WotC, and we had all those wonderful FR conversion notes).
I tied it to the lore I had where Samarach was taken-over (sort of) by the ex-patriate Mazticans who were in Amn. One of these days I will get back to that massive, multi-conversion project (it also contained all the Abeir locales which I spread throughout the Chultlan 'arm').
On another note, for those of you interested in or working things 'further afield' (more northerly) - the mock-up map I did showing all the 'Western Realms' (everything 'across the sea', including Evermeet - all three continents plus MANY islands), so some of Slevas' (?) material on the Metahel may be able to be tied in here...
Anyhow, I was looking for a certain quote (which I am starting to think doesn't exist), going through every source I could find that covers 'ancient elves' and related events, and I found something I hadn't ever noticed before: check out the Four Sons entry on pg.59 of LEoF! I am thinking there is some secret 'island base' with a 'lost kingdom' of Aryvandaar elves! I am picturing it in the north, among all those islands leading from Anchoromé to the far NW corner of Faerûn, but it could just as easily be placed south somewhere, like among the islands of Eskember.
Yeah, I was playing with the idea that the Poscadari elves came from that northerly section of Anchorome, because it says that they came to Anchorome from a snowy place because of prophecies that promised a rich land. It wouldn't surprise me if the Poscadari elves (snow elves) came south and say the Vyshantaar took over their old residence (and not necessarily in that order either).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 03:03:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
On another note and topic. I almost started a seperate thread for this because its something I've been pondering for a few years and I had an "aha" moment today.
It's about Qotal. Let's be honest, he's supposed to really be the divine hero of Maztica. He's the premeire god of good, yet he has done some truly terrible (I'd say unforgiveable) things. I mean, he seriously forced himself on his sister - I don't even like talking about that nor bringing it up but for this I have to. He's also come across as awful pissy in the novels and he tended to ignore the suffering his battles with Zaltec incurred. This eventually drove his high priest (Lotil, I believe? I have to reread my notes) to abandon his vow of silence and literally berate his god as he fought Zaltec!
I'm trying to imagine a way to make him less culpable in all this and to rectify the situation. That's flat out impossible in the case of Kiltzi, but in Diamond Eyes, I at least tried to make it happen due to Shar's evil influence.
Pushing that all aside, because frankly, I have to - now I'm looking to rectify or excuse his other behavior, so I started to think about the "sacrifice" he made back in the original battle of the gods. If you don't know the lore, long ago the gods called upon their worshipers to built a grand temple in the middle of the desert. Every god did this, and at the site, Zaltec and Qotal were destined to do battle. Before the battle (which Qotal won) each god had a sacrifice performed. Zaltec had his priests cut out the hearts of thousands of warriors, but Qotal simply released 13 butterflies. As they passed over the corpses of the dead faithful of Zaltec all the blood and gore was washed away.
When I read that, I didn't quite understand how it was a sacrifice, as you are probably wondering yourself now.
Well, what if it actually was a very important sacrifice for Qotal? What if he invested much of his divine power into those 13 butterflies as a gift to mankind and Qotal got ticked off that man did not understand what he had done for them? Perhaps Qotal has been truly a humble hero all along? I am contemplating writing up a short article on these 13 butterflies. Perhaps they exist somewhere still in the True World?
Since Lotil died after blashpeming his god, maybe Qotal has resurrected or returned Lotil as some form of good undead to write the true story of Qotal's sacrifice? Might be a nice DMSGuild write up? He could have written about the supposed powers of these butterflies (which take the form of jewelery and are now artifacts?
Here's the brainstorm of what their powers may be...
ALL: Possessing one of the 13 allows you to have inspiration once between long rests. This follows the normal rules of inspiration and you can't get "additional" inspiration in a day otherwise. Owning a piece of divinity like this would certainly make it reasonable.
ALL: Two minor powers from the DMG
ALL: Have one incredibly powerful use that is really only for story, not to ruin a campaign. Once used, the butterfly disappears and its power is lost temporarily to the cosmos until it gathers again somewhere for mankind to find when in need once again.
Butterfly 1: Can transform into some type of gargantuan sized butterfly. The butterfly cannot attack, but it can transport an entire population of refugees in a case of extreme duress.
Butterfly 2: Similar use to 1, except it can part a giant sea like the Staff of Moses - again for some form of Exodus.
Butterfly 3: Can imprison a creature of near godlike ability (something tarrasque-like). The problem is, if it is used again in a few centuries, its prior prisoner is released!
Butterfly 4: It can come alive and fly across barren land, making flowers bloom, water bubble to the surface, etc. This could be a great way to explain how Tukan was formed.
Butterfly 5: Can ressurect a being of great power, perhaps even return a fallen god or goddess (might use it to resurrect Maztica herself!)
Butterfly 6: Can fundamentally change the nature of hundreds of creatures. I would use this to explain the plumed behemoths from TWC7. Essentially, this is how Qotal protected his flock during their exile in Abeir.
Butterfly 7: Can cause one creature to fully love another. I'd like to think that Qotal's major flaw is that he truly does not understand love in its human incarnation. He thought an ability like this would be something good for humanity but such an item would be rife for corruption from Shar.
Butterfly 8: Can temporarily change the motion of a celestial object. In the Maztica Alive campaign, every time there is a solar eclipse, star demons known as tzitzimitl wreak havoc on Maztica. This could be used to stop it from happening (adventure hook!).
Butterfly 9: Can alter weather patterns dramatically for an extended period of time.
Butterfly 10: Can allow for a direct audience with the Plumed Dragon himself. Not like you might in some type of commune spell, but rather where you get to speak for a time almost on equal footing.
Butterfly 11: Creates a massive ziggurat/temple in the way a Daern's Instant Fortress would work.
Butterfly 12: Can briefly infuse a character with Qotal's divine essence, allowing him to polymorph into a massive plumed dragon. Like all other abilites, it only can work once.
Butterfly 13: Lotil does not know of this power and Qotal does not speak of it. For the DM to decide.
What do you think?
Yeah, I always thought that was a weird story (i.e. him winning by releasing butterflies). Your concept is a good one, but I don't know it still doesn't feel right. Part of me thinks make the butterflies still alive. Maybe they've been captured by different groups who are drawing the essence from them, and this is slowly weakening Qotal. Maybe certain of Qotal's later actions are due to things done to a captured butterfly.... still feels cheesy... but you're right, Qotal is NOT utterly good. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 03:05:11
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| Markustay.... you said you had a newer map I might like? Link? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 03:22:51
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I posted a link to the map in an edit above, but here it is again.
Is that what you were talking about? That was just me trying to squeeze returned Abeir onto the Faerûnian continent (because most DMs never move their games out of The Realms proper). Then I got carried away and started trying to make everything could find work (I even began converting Tharsult into the Minrothad guilds from Mystar - you can see some of that weirdness there).
The map is in such an haphazard, unfinished state, its more of a 'mental exercise' than a true map for me. I hadn't realized how awful the blown-up terrain (form my other map) was going to look there, and when I realized I had to repaint it all, I decided to leave it until I got to this region with my main mapping project (rather than do the same work twice). So this is kind of a suggestion type f things, for DMs who may want to use the Abeir stuff without using laerakond itself.
Thindol lost its eastern territory to Skelkor in this - I believe that's the only real compromise I had to make to get it to all fit. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 03:48:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I posted a link to the map in an edit above, but here it is again.
Is that what you were talking about? That was just me trying to squeeze returned Abeir onto the Faerûnian continent (because most DMs never move their games out of The Realms proper). Then I got carried away and started trying to make everything could find work (I even began converting Tharsult into the Minrothad guilds from Mystar - you can see some of that weirdness there).
The map is in such an haphazard, unfinished state, its more of a 'mental exercise' than a true map for me. I hadn't realized how awful the blown-up terrain (form my other map) was going to look there, and when I realized I had to repaint it all, I decided to leave it until I got to this region with my main mapping project (rather than do the same work twice). So this is kind of a suggestion type f things, for DMs who may want to use the Abeir stuff without using laerakond itself.
Thindol lost its eastern territory to Skelkor in this - I believe that's the only real compromise I had to make to get it to all fit.
No, this more northerly thing
On another note, for those of you interested in or working things 'further afield' (more northerly) - the mock-up map I did showing all the 'Western Realms' (everything 'across the sea', including Evermeet - all three continents plus MANY islands), so some of Sleyvas' (?) material on the Metahel may be able to be tied in here... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 03:51:30
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Oh... THAT. That's WAY more 'unfinished' then that thing I posted above. Let me see if I can find it...
EDIT:
Okay, took me forever. I lost track of this one - I saved it in the wrong place, and I forgot what I named it, and it was so long ago it was no longer appearing on my GIMP 'recent files' list (which goes back about 50 files).
Its a paste-together of several of my other maps - I was just using it to correct the bad scale bar on the katashaka map. But I did add Eskemeber, which hasn't appeared on an FR map since Ed's originals.
The Trackless Sea |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Apr 2018 04:15:20 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 17:00:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Oh... THAT. That's WAY more 'unfinished' then that thing I posted above. Let me see if I can find it...
EDIT:
Okay, took me forever. I lost track of this one - I saved it in the wrong place, and I forgot what I named it, and it was so long ago it was no longer appearing on my GIMP 'recent files' list (which goes back about 50 files).
Its a paste-together of several of my other maps - I was just using it to correct the bad scale bar on the katashaka map. But I did add Eskemeber, which hasn't appeared on an FR map since Ed's originals.
The Trackless Sea
Ah, gotcha. If you don't mind, I may take this and start adding stuff an rearranging other stuff. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 18:41:24
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No problem - its a 'Frankensteined' map anyway - one I pieced together just to correct stuff.
Maztica within its own maps: the scale was somewhat off on the original Maztica maps that came with the boxed set, and although someone might argue that the only canon maps we ever got for a region can't be off, the problem is we DO have world maps (and the FRIA), so if I made Maztica slightly bigger on that map (as its own canon maps imply), then it would throw everything else off. Way back when, TSR had the same problem with the Kara-Tur maps. When they went to connect them via the Hordelands boxed set, they found the scale they made for them was way too big, hence their later errata that said to reduce them 2/3 (I believe the K-T trail map has the corrected size).
In the case of Malatra, I went in a different direction (quite literally). The canon LJ Malatra maps showed the plateau to be around 1000 miles, but when the FRIA guys went to place it, they couldn't fit that over where the canon K-T maps said Malatra was. Problem is, the guys who worked on those maps didn't really read the material, and the word 'Malatra' was squeezed in where it was, even though 'Malatra' was what everything south of K-T was called (by the Shou). So they didn't need to put it where the label was on the K-T box set maps - they could have put it anywhere 'down south', which is what I did - it fit perfectly in the large jungle area (just north of the region I named Jambu-Dweepam).
I'd say actually drawing the maps is probably only about 10-15% of what I do. Lately I have even been adding rivers where I know they should logically be. The more things make sense in a fictional setting, the more immersive it becomes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jürgen Hubert
Acolyte
Germany
33 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 19:37:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
On another note and topic. I almost started a seperate thread for this because its something I've been pondering for a few years and I had an "aha" moment today.
It's about Qotal. Let's be honest, he's supposed to really be the divine hero of Maztica. He's the premeire god of good, yet he has done some truly terrible (I'd say unforgiveable) things. I mean, he seriously forced himself on his sister - I don't even like talking about that nor bringing it up but for this I have to. He's also come across as awful pissy in the novels and he tended to ignore the suffering his battles with Zaltec incurred.
I'll post my thoughts on the butterflies (which I like - it's always worth elaborating on Maztican mythology), but I wanted to comment on this.
For one thing, keep in mind that this particular story is part of a section that even the Maztica Boxed Set calls out as unreliable - and the novels have their own version of the story about why Qotal left Maztica.
Western (European, Christian) metaphysics places a strong focus on absolute opposites - including the concepts of "Good and Evil". And the mainland Forgotten Realms (i.e. Faerun) are based on European notions of fantasy.
However, Aztec philosophy does not have metaphysical, transcendent concepts of "Good and Evil". Instead, "Good" and "Evil" are merely pragmatic descriptors - the former is whatever helps people and society maintain some (purely temporary) stability in this fragile, impermanent world, while the latter is what causes this stability to shatter.
The expectation of people shaped by European metaphysics - which is probably most of us here, but also includes Faerunian visitors like Halloran - is that Zaltec is "Evil", since he stands for "War" and "Destruction", and thus Qotal must be "Good" since he opposes Zaltec and stands for "Creation".
But this is probably a misconception on our part - when viewed from the perspective of Aztec metaphysics, Zaltec and Qotal form a so-called "agonistic inamic unity" - they oppose each other, but each also contains a seed of the other, and they form a greater whole that can only exist due to their constant struggle. They cannot exist independently from each other, and labeling them "good" or "evil is purely in the eye of the individual beholder.
Thus, I wouldn't get too hang up with trying to turn Qotal into the "designated good guy" - he is a god with a portfolio of specific forces, and the Mazticans pay homage to him in the hopes of strengthening these forces in their lives.
Incidentally, I recommend this article as a primer on these concepts - I am currently reading the book on the subject by the same author:
http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/home/aztec-philosophy |
A German Geek - my gaming blog
Returned Maztica Discussion Thread - my interpretation of the True World
Doomed Slayers - my social analysis of adventurers. Also, a fantasy setting! |
Edited by - Jürgen Hubert on 15 Apr 2018 19:39:13 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 20:24:15
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Also, to add to that (I meant to address the 'Butterfies' thing earlier), if we did need to shoe-horn the Aztec(like) mythos into D&D rules, I would say its more along the lines of Order vs Chaos, then 'good vs evil'. Its a purer (more 'primitive') form of what's really taking place in the universe around us (whereas 'good' and 'evil' are mortal concepts, which Jürgen Hubert above explained quite well).
About the butterflies themselves: I agree with Sleyvas that they should still be butterflies. We have a precedent (the Imaskarcana) that artifacts can take other forms to disguise themselves, so why not this? What if the butterflies are more like Bubo (the owl) from the original Clash of the Titans? They are so small, and people saw them from far away, they may have just assumed they were living creatures (and on some level, I guess they still could be - artifacts do sometimes have sentience). So small automatons, that can also turn into artifacts (so like Transformers as well LOL).
I want to steal the one that grows colossal size for Katashaka - 'Robot Mothra' |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Apr 2018 20:25:37 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2018 : 01:41:59
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I understand the Aztec basis of Q and Z, but I don’t think it works as well in a conflict based fantasy system. In the novels, Zaltec was clearly an antagonist and despite his flaws, Qotal was meant to be the hero (remember this is a time in FR novels where every book was about the gods and what they did). I took the Aztec neutrality and yin and yang to be more present in Kukul and Maztica herself. I don’t believe it was the Amnian perspective with those two at all though.
There needs to be conflict for an effective story, and I don’t think it will be as fun if we use a “two sides of the same coin” look at those particular gods. Qotal even appeals to some of the Amnians like Halloran. After all, these aren’t Aztecs, these are Mazticans - it should be influenced, but not a copy of them. |
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Jürgen Hubert
Acolyte
Germany
33 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2018 : 05:46:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, to add to that (I meant to address the 'Butterfies' thing earlier), if we did need to shoe-horn the Aztec(like) mythos into D&D rules, I would say its more along the lines of Order vs Chaos, then 'good vs evil'. Its a purer (more 'primitive') form of what's really taking place in the universe around us (whereas 'good' and 'evil' are mortal concepts, which Jürgen Hubert above explained quite well).
We should beware of portraying this as a Moorcockian (or even Warhammer-esque) struggle between forces that either might actually win at some point, however.
To the Aztec notion of the world, the universe has always existed, and it (or rather, the all-encompassing force of "teotl") is constantly re-creating itself in the struggle between opposing forces, and if one becomes dominant, the status quo will soon bounce back into the other direction. "Law" and "Chaos" (or perhaps "Order" and "Disorder") thus struggle against each other, and in their struggle create a "dynamic balance" for the world. The goal of Aztec worship was not to see one side ultimately triumph over the other - that was impossible. Instead, it was to provide some purely temporary stability to the part of the world they lived in. This wouldn't last - eventually, the city, nation, world would end and be replaced by something new - but at least for some time it would stave off the inevitable.
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I understand the Aztec basis of Q and Z, but I don’t think it works as well in a conflict based fantasy system. In the novels, Zaltec was clearly an antagonist and despite his flaws, Qotal was meant to be the hero (remember this is a time in FR novels where every book was about the gods and what they did). I took the Aztec neutrality and yin and yang to be more present in Kukul and Maztica herself. I don’t believe it was the Amnian perspective with those two at all though.
There needs to be conflict for an effective story, and I don’t think it will be as fun if we use a “two sides of the same coin” look at those particular gods. Qotal even appeals to some of the Amnians like Halloran. After all, these aren’t Aztecs, these are Mazticans - it should be influenced, but not a copy of them.
"Conflict" and "antagonists" can exist without cosmic "Good" and "Evil". Consider "Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind", one of my favorite examples of setting design (and one of the inspirations for my interpretation of Morrowind). Dagoth Ur is clearly the antagonist of the story, yet the Tribunal opposing him are hardly the "Good Guys", even though they like to portray themselves as "heroes" in Temple doctrine. Yes, they have done quite a lot of good things for the Dunmer - but they also did a lot of highly questionable things (such as provoking Azura's Curse and possibly murdering Nerevar). Indeed, through parts of the game the Temple acts as antagonist to the true hero of the game - the player character.
Likewise, Qotal is called out in both the Boxed Set and the novels as having rather questionable sides that prevent him from being the "good guy" of the story - even if he views himself as such. The true "good guys" are the mortal protagonists - Erixitl, Halloran, Poshtli, Gultec and those who support them. Qotal is more appropriately called a "culture hero" - that is to say, he embodies certain Maztican virtues - instead of the European concept of cosmic "Good".
So the question is: What makes for a more interesting story? Personally, I think it will make Maztica more interesting if "Good" and "Evil" are not defined by the gods, but something that mortals must struggle to define on their own. This does not mean ignoring or opposing the gods. Indeed, the gods must still be given their due so that the aspects of the world they hold power over are strengthened. But RPG stories should be all about the choices the player characters make. |
A German Geek - my gaming blog
Returned Maztica Discussion Thread - my interpretation of the True World
Doomed Slayers - my social analysis of adventurers. Also, a fantasy setting! |
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Jürgen Hubert
Acolyte
Germany
33 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2018 : 18:28:35
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Speaking of gods, there is this paragraph in the novel Viperhand:
Naltecona stepped away and then turned suddenly back, his pluma cloak circling around him. "Is it possible that Cordell is a god? Can he be Qotal, returning to the True World to claim his rightful throne?"
Hal's jaw dropped. "Cordell, a god? No. He's a man like you and me—a man who breathes like us, who loves women and food and drink. He's a leader of men, but he's unquestionably a man himself!"
This pays homage to the old legend that the Aztecs allegedly viewed Cortes as a deity - but this legend is based on a linguistic misunderstanding. Europeans saw "divinity" as something absolute - you either were a god or you were a mortal; something was either sacred or divine. The Aztec notion of "teotl", on the other hand, considered everything to be "sacred" or "divine" - it was just that some objects or beings were more so than others. Thus, "divinity" is considered to be something on a spectrum, not an absolute.
And let's not forget that this conversation from the book took place in Nexalan - a language Halloran has only learned very recently, and certainly hasn't mastered the nuances of (including Maztican notions of divinity). Additionally, teotl also represents "capacity for changing the world". Thus, I feel justified in translating Naltecona's words as:
"Is it possible that Cordell is strongly rooted in divinity? Can he be embodying Qotal, returning to the True World to claim his rightful throne?"
Halloran, meanwhile, would view this through his Faerunian notions of deity and deny this. And from that Naltecona understood that Cordell was not a potent force for change after all - and thus something Nexal could defeat with little difficulty.
And thus Naltecona was doomed. Death by mistranslation. |
A German Geek - my gaming blog
Returned Maztica Discussion Thread - my interpretation of the True World
Doomed Slayers - my social analysis of adventurers. Also, a fantasy setting! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2018 : 22:27:48
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As for Anchoromé and what that name actually applies to; I found this in Murder in Baldur's Gate:
quote:
The city gained its current name centuries ago when the great explorer Balduran returned from his journey to the other side of Evermeet, the homeland of the elves, where he searched for the fabled isles of Anchorome. He spread around wild stories of his adventures as well as huge amounts of wealth, some of which he spent to have a wall constructed around his oft-raided hometown. Balduran left again for Anchorome and never returned.
Accent, mine. It seems the intent - between 4e & 5e - was for Anchromé to NOT be the large landmass itself, but rather, the islands in front of it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Apr 2018 15:07:00 |
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Jürgen Hubert
Acolyte
Germany
33 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2018 : 06:33:28
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Another random thought:
Every good D&D(esque) setting needs to have a bunch of prior civilizations that left dungeons behind to plunder. A great example of this is the Elder Scrolls setting, which has a bunch of really evocative dungeon "themes" - dwemer strongholds, daedric shrines, nordic ruins, ayleid cities... the list goes on. And the mainland Forgotten Realms certainly has no shortage of "lost civilizations", starting with Netheril and Cormanthor, and going on from there.
But Maztica has a significant shortage of those. Yes, there are the lost cities and temples of the fallen Payit civilizations, but that's about it.
So we ought to come up with a few new ones that nevertheless fit into the setting.
The best starting point is probably the legends about the Immortal Era from the Maztica Boxed Set, and the gods prior attempts at creating human - it's probably not too much of a stretch that these represent garbled stories about prior inhabitants of Maztica. (Again, the Boxed Set itself points out that these stories are not to be taken literally - and given what we know about the rise of humanity on Toril as a whole, these stories cannot possibly be all accurate anyway.)
"First, the gods made humans by scooping the thick mud of the riverbottom, and then forming clay into the images of men. But they placed these images back into the water, and the river washed their features away. The men of clay struggled and writhed on the world, but they could not stand. Finally, the men of clay disappeared in the water."
This sounds a lot like Mudmen - but these are unintelligent. Perhaps they used to be intelligent, but gradually lost their intelligence? This would fit the phrase "washed their features away". What would a Mudman civilization look like? Presumably, they could only propagate via magic - but perhaps the magic gradually went away...
An alternative explanation would be doppelgangers, who also have no firm shapes.
"Next, the gods took the limbs of stout trees, and hacked the wooden features into the shapes of men. They placed the men of wood into the water, and they floated. When they came forth from the stream, their features remained intact. The gods were pleased, for the men of wood seemed superior to their early cousins.
Then the lightning of a towering storm struck the world. Violent crashes and explosions shook the body of Maztica, and crackling explosions of the storm's rage echoed across the land. The men of wood caught fire, burning away before the eyes of the gods."
This sounds like some kind of plant creatures. Any suggestions?
"So the gods made a man of gold, and he was very beautiful. The gods gathered around to look at him, and they were very pleased. They waited for the man to praise the gods who had made him. But they waited long, and the man made no move, no sound. The man of gold failed, for he had no heart and no breath. He could not live."
Since this story only mentions a singular "man of gold", it can't really stand for an entire species. Still, perhaps it is some sort of construct from a prior civilization - a gold golem, perhaps - that has withstood the ravages of time.
Your thoughts? And what other civilizations might have left ruins behind? |
A German Geek - my gaming blog
Returned Maztica Discussion Thread - my interpretation of the True World
Doomed Slayers - my social analysis of adventurers. Also, a fantasy setting! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2018 : 15:42:44
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Well, first off, The Creator Races - Sarrukh, Batrachi, Aearee, Fey, and Mankind - were EVERWHERE in the days of Thunder, mostly because that was before FR's Pangea - the proto-continent Merrouroboros - split apart and became the continents we know. Thus, there should be evidence of all five still in the True World.
I don't think we need to take the first two myths literally - we have evidence of at least two previous, possibly human, civilizations right there. The 'mud men' sound more like neanderthals to me. In fact, the first thing that jumped to mind was orcs, because they were 'rough featured'. But I dismissed that since the last thing we want is the tropes found everywhere else. We could possibly substitute another 'bestial' type of humanoid - I'm going with Hobgoblins down in Katashaka for that reason. Or maybe even create something unique (or semi-unique) to the region that would be Maztica's version of orcs, like maybe the Lossal (they were orc-baboon hybrids in GH, but we can make them just a primitive normal race in FR). In fact, any sort of 'apish' race would work for our 'rough featured' people (saying they were actual mud is a bit literal, I think - N.American natives had similar myths, and the mud was baked into clay, but some were undercooked and some were overcooked, which is how they explained races {ethnicities}). If you want to keep the 'shifting features' aspect of it, go with the Lagahoo, which is from Central/South America. Its a shapeshifter from Trinidad. We could say they had their own civilization, but became cursed, and now there are only some monstrous types left.
For the wood men, I am thinking elves, or rather, something very similar to elves but not quite, like Fey with an Aztec vibe. We may even want to make them slightly taller than humans, just to differentiate them from other elves (I am picturing something along the lines of WoW's Night Elves. This not only gives us the 'wood' connection, but it also connects them to a group that should have been there anyway - the Fey.
I like the idea of a large, golden golem. Invaders (Faerûnians) would be looking for it just for the gold, but they'd get more than they bargained for where they find out its still active. I was going to go with a legendary 'Gold Gorilla' in my Katashaka stuff (idea completely ripped-off from a storyline in Pirates101), with a very similar legend (people would think they are looking for a valuable statue, but it would turn out to be a HUGE gorilla instead).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Apr 2018 21:46:52 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2018 : 16:01:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Jürgen Hubert
Another random thought:
Every good D&D(esque) setting needs to have a bunch of prior civilizations that left dungeons behind to plunder. A great example of this is the Elder Scrolls setting, which has a bunch of really evocative dungeon "themes" - dwemer strongholds, daedric shrines, nordic ruins, ayleid cities... the list goes on. And the mainland Forgotten Realms certainly has no shortage of "lost civilizations", starting with Netheril and Cormanthor, and going on from there.
But Maztica has a significant shortage of those. Yes, there are the lost cities and temples of the fallen Payit civilizations, but that's about it.
So we ought to come up with a few new ones that nevertheless fit into the setting.
The best starting point is probably the legends about the Immortal Era from the Maztica Boxed Set, and the gods prior attempts at creating human - it's probably not too much of a stretch that these represent garbled stories about prior inhabitants of Maztica. (Again, the Boxed Set itself points out that these stories are not to be taken literally - and given what we know about the rise of humanity on Toril as a whole, these stories cannot possibly be all accurate anyway.)
"First, the gods made humans by scooping the thick mud of the riverbottom, and then forming clay into the images of men. But they placed these images back into the water, and the river washed their features away. The men of clay struggled and writhed on the world, but they could not stand. Finally, the men of clay disappeared in the water."
This sounds a lot like Mudmen - but these are unintelligent. Perhaps they used to be intelligent, but gradually lost their intelligence? This would fit the phrase "washed their features away". What would a Mudman civilization look like? Presumably, they could only propagate via magic - but perhaps the magic gradually went away...
An alternative explanation would be doppelgangers, who also have no firm shapes.
"Next, the gods took the limbs of stout trees, and hacked the wooden features into the shapes of men. They placed the men of wood into the water, and they floated. When they came forth from the stream, their features remained intact. The gods were pleased, for the men of wood seemed superior to their early cousins.
Then the lightning of a towering storm struck the world. Violent crashes and explosions shook the body of Maztica, and crackling explosions of the storm's rage echoed across the land. The men of wood caught fire, burning away before the eyes of the gods."
This sounds like some kind of plant creatures. Any suggestions?
"So the gods made a man of gold, and he was very beautiful. The gods gathered around to look at him, and they were very pleased. They waited for the man to praise the gods who had made him. But they waited long, and the man made no move, no sound. The man of gold failed, for he had no heart and no breath. He could not live."
Since this story only mentions a singular "man of gold", it can't really stand for an entire species. Still, perhaps it is some sort of construct from a prior civilization - a gold golem, perhaps - that has withstood the ravages of time.
Your thoughts? And what other civilizations might have left ruins behind?
Amazing how similar my thoughts on this have been. I have specifically used Lutum (from Spelljammer, sorry I can’t do links right now, I’m on my phone), which eventually degenerated into the semi mindless mudmen. For the men of wood, there was mention in Fires of Zatal that Maztica has treants that behave differently from normal treants (haughty, as if they are royalty). I also wanted to use golden golems. Kukul was unhappy because their soulless nature made their worship useless and unfulfilling. |
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