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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jul 2014 : 03:33:04
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Scions of Astaroth and Narathmault.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 24 Jul 2014 03:33:33 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2014 : 08:50:23
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Well Demzer, your theory of the date of his ascension actually ties in nicely to my theory that Gargauth had infiltrated the church of Bane (through Algashon) and bizarrely with George's little prod to do with the Scions of Astaroth that are mentioned in Cloak and Dagger right next to a bit about the Church of Xvim who are dedicated to stemming the rise of Gargauth's cult.
Thanks to THO there is the possibility that Algashon was a member of the Knights of the Shield as well as being a leading figure in the Cult of the Dragon, and at the same time he was very much favoured by Bane and possibly a precursor to a Chosen.
If Algashon did hold the Shield of the Hidden Lord in any way then it is almost certain that he would begin to hear the whispers of Gargauth. Therefore it is also possible that Gargauth's cult began to grow within the Church of Bane.
Bane's church at the time was all about placing and supporting tyrants, being the power behind the throne, rather than modern Bane/Xvim which is all about being the tyrant. Gargauth loves politics and power brokers and intrigue and corruption so his worship ties in nicely with Bane's, however Bane doesnt share power and so he wouldnt be happy about Gargauth nicking his worshippers.
In 1065 DR, Gargauth was indeed a wild baatezu and was working with Bane's Church to attack the Harper Inn.
We also know that in 1076 DR High Imperceptor Strife came to power and set about uniting the fractious elements of Bane's church. That could also include purging the church of traitors and heretics. Strife dies in 1141 DR. Powers and Pantheons states that the Churches of the Dark Gods Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul and i think either Talona or Loviatar succeed in preventing Gargauth from becoming a lesser power so i reckon that particular event where they go on a purge of Gargauth worshippers is his point of ascension, somewhere between 1076 and 1141 DR.
Now onto Zahyra's mentor, i had ruled out many of the beings you mentioned as well but hadnt considered Larloch, mostly because i dont attribute him to actually doing anything other than researching magic (which i know is incorrect, but its difficult to break habits). If Larloch is indeed involved in manipulating nations then he does make a good candidate but i still favour Gargauth.
The Legacy of Astaroth story shows if anything that Gargauth is the perfect manipulator and ultimate devil. He is a born seducer and corruptor, giving a person their heart's desire, no matter how good that desire may be and asking for small trifling things in return (like a small enchanted shield), in the end however he twists those good acts upon themselves so that it destroys the person he is bargaining with.
So in the case of the dwarves he gave them gold, all the gold they could ever want, and then watched them die unable to defend themselves against the hordes of of evil humanoids that also want gold.
I no longer think Zahyra was evil, i think she was just a pawn used by Gargauth. She wanted Silvam more than anything else and a unity between men and elves (love is a powerful motivator). Gargauth made sure that happened slowly over the years. In return he helped her save Silvam many times by tutoring her in powerful magic, helping her craft the two artefacts so that she could always keep an eye on him, creating the Knights of the Shield to help defend Silvam and Tethyr. In return all he wanted was a very small magical shield for himself.
In the end however he knew the alliance and king Silvam would perish and Zahyra would be left alone and broken. The cultural differences between men and elves reared their ugly head when the wife of Clan Ithal's chieftain perished and the elves demanded the life of her protector.
Silvam had to agree to save his kingdom and this cost him his life when one of the nobles decided Silvam was no longer fit to be king.
It wouldnt surprise if Gargauth had planted the snake in the grass that killed the chieftains wife (one of his manifestations is a carpet of serpents).
He is very very dangerous but you would never know it to look at him. Im pretty sure in Ed's campaign he has a position of prominence as super evil behind the scenes bad guy.
Gargauth may even have had a hand in manipulating Vizera Rhynda to accept Akkabel as a pupil and the subsequent marriage alliance. After all why wouldnt you listen to the mentor of your mentor when he pops back in to town and suggests a solution to your greatest conundrum.
And finally on to George and his little poke. I had just got to the page with the Scion's of Astaroth yesterday and it did stoke a few thoughts in my mind. Firstly why did they appear where they did, which was described as "the lands once owned by Narfell" (that means anywhere from the Wizard's Reach to northern Impiltur), one possible explanation is that is where Astaroth used to frequent or where he was last alive.
So as George pointed out Narathmault is within the lands once owned by Narfell and is a site used to bind powerful outsiders. Gargauth we now know has a connection to the Illythiiri and Wendonai, and has extensively explored Toril so it is possible he knew of Narathmault's existence and it's purpose.
Then comes the greatest conundrum. How exactly did Gargauth kill Astaroth. Astaroth was a demon lord, Gargauth is an ex lord of the nine. Why would Astaroth be present on the material plane where Gargauth frequents when he could just stay on his abyssal plane with his infinite number of minions.
Demon Lords arriving on the Material Plane in person is a highly unusual event (or at least it should be), i certainly cant imagine them doing it voluntarily. I think both demons and devils (lords anyway) can teleport around at will to wherever they want so any combat between the two is going to be impossible unless they both want to fight each other.
Unless of course you bind your victim in place so he cannot escape and then rip him to shreds. I doubt Gargauth used the adamantine binding like was used on Eltab, merely a form of binding that forced Astaroth into the binding circle in person and prevented his escape for a time. During that time Gargauth killed him and took his power. And all this probably occured in Narathmault itself many millennia ago (after the crown wars). Gargauth was after all the treasurer of Hell, is very friendly with Asmodeus and therefore is one of the few beings in existence to know one of the true names of Astaroth necessary to bind him
The Scions of Astaroth trace Astaroth's last known location back to Toril and Narathmault and there discover it was Gargauth that killed their lord (or they could have gone to the 79th layer of the Abyss and the Wells of Darkness and asked him themselves).
Anyway thats my two/three cents on current thoughts. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2014 : 02:53:38
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I have to go back and read through bits of "Lady of Poison". It has a few threads that might be of use for this discussion.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2014 : 09:14:06
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Well while George is off investigating novels that i dont have, there are a few possible inconsistencies with Gargauth that may bear mentioning.
First is the mention of Gargauth's unique power. I had a check in an old dragon magazine with a writeup of Gargoth (written by Ed Greenwood i believe) and it mentions Gargoth's unique power is to plane shift, and that he may not be a baatezu (yugoloth perhaps).
Then in powers and pantheons Gargauth has the ability to absorb the powers of any baatezu he kills. Yet the most famous mention of his use of this power is on a demon lord named Astaroth (i guess the power works on all outsiders then).
And finally is the matter of Peleveran and Gargauth's temples.
All of Gargauth's temples are built atop a very deep pits. Peleveran was built atop an incredibly deep pit with Gargauth imprisoned beneath it. Later it mentions the Dark Pit of Maleficence (the temple to Gargauth) is built in the ruins of Peleveran 50 years after its destruction atop a deep pit which is rumoured to hold a portal to Baator at the bottom.
So either Gargauth's clergy placed the portal to Baator in the bottom of the pit when they were building the temple, or the portal/rift was always there and Gargauth was imprisoned within it somehow.
The only problem with this is that Gargauth is exiled from Baator and if he ever returns he will be destroyed.
So i'm wondering if Peleveran was not the site of one of Gargauth's cult temples (before he became a god of course but you can still have a cult before you are a god). I imagine Gargauth quite liked the rift with Baator at the bottom of the pit and so chose this place to establish a cult/temple deliberately (makes it feel more like home).
Along comes some do-gooder with a Demonshield of Hilather and tries to use it to entrap Gargauth. The magic of the shield interacts with the rift to Baator and accidentally imprisons Gargauth inside the pit instead of inside the shield.
I reckon Hilather's research in Torsil using the rift to the Abyss (and possibly the 79th layer of the Abyss with the Wells of Darkness) at the bottom of his tower, used binding magics to transport outsiders inside an extra dimensional prison which it created inside the shield and then sealed it shut preventing escape (unless some idiot breaks the shield).
When the shield was used on Gargauth it instead created an extradimensional prison inside the pit and sealed him inside. Gargauth then needed a mage who was more powerful than Hilather shortly after his release from stasis and who had access to ancient magic courtesy of the cult of the dragon (and Gargauth through the Knights of the Shield).
Of course following that train of thought puts Gargauth's imprisonment in the Shoon era with rampant fiend summoning and the demonshields sent throughout the Shoon Empire to deal with them. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2014 : 05:56:18
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well while George is off investigating novels that i dont have, there are a few possible inconsistencies with Gargauth that may bear mentioning.
Bruce Cordell was doing just fine with "Lady of Poison", providing a decent dollop of useful realmslore along the way of some above average prose, until we get to p.221. That's when he drops the "I'm the author with the kewl idea" bomb by stating:
"Hold on; why devils?" asked Marrec. "Aren't the Nar known for the demons they kept in thrall?"
Ususi replied, "Demons, devils, 'loths ... the Nar were not picky in those creatures they pressed into service. We say demons, but the Nar embraced a much wider swath of foulness."
At the time and now, I say "Dear Bruce, wtf?".
Anywho, this reference is "canon" realmslore (it really is amazing how much fiction realmslore I've had to contort and explain away in FR work over more than a decade. If the FR line needs anything, it is a manager in the fiction dept. to rein in some of this author exuberance, but I digress ...) and so has always needed an explanation.
I don't agree with Bruce's line re the Nar summoning everyone and everything. But, respectful of what has come before as I am, I came up with an explanation in my head after reading that book.
The explanation was that Narfell did indeed embrace the gamut of evil extra planar summoning during the Crell Dynasty. With the assumption of power of the Orgolaths in -633 DR however, demon worship and summoning became the standard, and the devil and 'loth cults (who had always been in the minority) were hunted down, exterminated, fled or went underground.
To return to Dazzlerdal's musings re Gargauth and the Ilythiiri, I comment that there were a couple of reasons I had for creating Narathmault. Firstly, it explained why Dun Tharos was such a "bad" place; secondly it explained where the drow of Undrek 'Thoz came from; and thirdly, it provided the kicker for making the Narfelli the baddies that we know they came to be.
Dazzlerdal's stuff on Gargauth makes me think that at one time, prior to -633 DR, Narfell was a microcosm for the Blood War with factions of all the parties to that ongoing tussle represented and in conflict. Astaroth, in his unique role as deep cover agent for the Abyss, may have manipulated and used Narfelli humans as information conduits (how else did he get intelligence from the Hells to the Abyss ....?).
Gargauth, in his apparent role of Asmodeus' assassin, was tasked with tracking down Astaroth after he was unmasked as an Abyssal lord and fled the Hells. Perhaps Astaroth was building a power base in Narfell and gaining divine power through human worship there (and from creatures on different worlds simultaneously). Perhaps, Gargauth learnt of this and manipulated a cabal of Narfelli demonbinders to summon Astaroth to the Prime where Gargauth was waiting for him and slew him, taking his guise and fooling Astaroth's unwitting mortal worshippers.
Gargauth was then one (of the many) 'hidden hands of power' that held sway in Narfell until its fall. This would have likely been in the guise of Astaroth and he would have fed on the Narfelli worship to boost the vestige of divinity wrested from that demon.
To bring it a little bit full circle, in the waning days of the Great Conflagration "Astaroth" commanded his worshippers and cabal to flee the realm. They travel to Ashanath and the ruins of Shandaular discovering the portal that had been located there since time immemorial. Giving them the secret to unlock it (well, he had been there when the Ilythiiri unlocked it to travel to Narathmault centuries before, after all, but I digress again ...), this group came through to the Council Hills and then wander the eastern Shaar, settling for long and short periods in various locations at the whim of Gargauth who continues to control them. It is this group who centuries later form the realm of Peleveran at the site of Gargauth's imprisonment.
Dazzlerdal's use of the demonshields of Hilather doesn't work because each of those shields had a demon bound into them on construction. But what if Hilather created a one-off demonshield as a template which he left blank - i.e. had no demon bound within it. This shield would have been left behind by Hilather (he had no use for them - he built them for Amahl Shoon IV in exchange for magical lore on wards and wizardly mythals) and likely found many years later by adventurers who sold it on (it had a magical aura but no discernible powers). Over the years that shield came into the hands of the Banite priest Brantal "the Grimscourge" Krimmar who encountered Gargauth in one of his many guises, was corrupted and ultimately came to serve The Lord Who Watches. Gargauth took Brantal's shield and shaped its raw magic into the Shield of the Hidden Lord as it is known today. The use of materials unique to the Hells in its creation saw it admirably suited to accept Gargauth's magic in this fashion.
Brantal wandered the Heartlands and lands of Amn and Tethyr, surreptitiously spreading the gospel of Gargauth and corrupting those he encountered, forming a number of worshiper cells and sympathisers throughout the region. When he fell in the Year of the Deceptive Tongue (831 DR) he was laid to rest in a secret tomb in the Fields of the Dead by his followers, and the Shield of the Hidden Lord was laid to rest with him.
The only piece of the puzzle that is missing is how Gargauth came to be trapped in the Pelevaran pit after 1022 DR. Who did it and how/why, I'll leave to wiser heads than mine.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2014 : 21:55:27
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I am at a real quandary here. I consider all GK lore to be canon and have never ignored it, yet I love the idea of Gargauth tempting Zahyra Ithal so much that I may have to just this once. Or perhaps there is a way I can reconcile both.
I never picked up on the fact that the demonshields all came with a demon included, I always assumed they were used by the wielders to bind demons (they certainly would have been more useful that way). However I see now from reading Kuraltaar that I was wrong and they were indeed all demonbound on creation.
The idea of a blank demonshield is brilliant. Something left in his abandoned tower in Torsil. Something he abandoned because it didn't work initially, was somewhat flawed perhaps. Maybe it was the first shield and didn't work because it was the wrong shape and metal (the hidden shield is round and made of mithril - the demonshields are diamond shaped and made of an alloy of Baatorian ores).
And I think there may be a reason why Zahyra is part of the conditions of destruction for the Hidden Shield. Calishite sorcerers had been working on binding magics for centuries (according to the Kuraltaar writeup). Zahyra suddenly appears from nowhere in Tethyr in its early years as a very powerful sorceress. The chances are Zahyra was from Calimshan (escaped slave perhaps). Perhaps her researches into binding magics are something Hilather built upon in designing his Demonshields (maybe Zahyra even tried a binding process on a mithril round shield that Hilather later found and both used but couldn't get to work properly and so discarded). The fiend binding magics they used on this shield made it very easy for Gargauth to possess (Soneillon did it with a ship so why cant Gargauth do it with a shield) and after prolonged periods of possession the shield became an extension of himself.
The Narfelli bloodwar is pure genius by the way George and that definitely goes into my Narfell. I love that Astaroth is active in ancient Narfell and Gargauth kills him, drains him, and even takes his place.
I guess we will have to wait until Ed decides to tell us how/when/who Gargauth gets trapped in that pit. I'm happy to have a decent story of creation for the shield of the hidden lord though.
Maybe when I get round to looking at the Shaar (although there isn't much to look at) I will find some clues on Peleveran. |
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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 26 Jul 2014 21:58:56 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2014 : 02:27:38
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I think you are right Dazzlerdal; Zahyra should have a role in here somewhere. Perhaps she is the initial creator of the shield and it was a prototype for the Shield of Silvam. It could have sat in the Tethyrian royal vaults (brought out only for battles where it was entrusted to whatever war leader was leading the clans/armies of Tethyr in the king's absence) and then passed to the Shoon with their usurping of power in Tethyr. The Qysar Shoon III loaned it to Hilather as a template after a tour of the Shoonite treasure chambers (the outer ones where the average stuff was kept) and his pledge to bring the Qysar thirteen shields in exchange for the lore he sought. When he delivered on his promise 4 years later, he didn't bother to return the shield given to him and the new Qysar had no knowledge that he had the Snarling Shield of Aziz in his possession.
The rest can then follow. I don't like the idea of the Vizera being evil or corrupted. If she has the power to destroy the Shield of the Hidden Lord, that should be because she is one of the good guys in my book.
Oh and nothing I write or say is "canon" for the Realms. Feel free to use/ignore/modify my musings at your leisure. Your ideas are as good as mine every day of the week. Cheers.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 27 Jul 2014 02:33:12 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2014 : 12:06:02
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| So, what this would hint at would be that the "Snarling Shield of Aziz" was maybe originally made to contain a certain type of genie (for instance an efreeti)? Maybe it was even created to hold a powerful Sultan or Pasha of the Efreeti and left empty as a threat. If it was switched from the LE fiery efreeti to the LE (also somewhat fiery) baatezu by Hilather, I could buy that. Another option could be that Hilather actually freed the efreeti lord who was bound in the shield, and as a result earned his gratitude. Maybe this efreeti lord works with Hilather/Halaster still? I wonder if this efreeti lord (if he exists) was involved in the salamander war in Thay? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2014 : 01:10:13
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Not many holes in that one. I recall we stitched up the Kraken Society fairly tightly once Eric brainstormed the hook with the illithids.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Tigon
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2018 : 12:38:17
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ARISE!
*cheeky grin*
Interesting how quick the cast time is on a "Resurrect Thread" spell, though the components required to do so properly takes some effort.
That said, I do have a thing or two to contribute here.
Let me preface this here that I'm no expert, and that I have been absent from the realms for around 20 years (pursuit of professional career, musical side-career, relationships etc.) and have recently returned. I was vaguely introduced to Gargauth's story arc, attempting to steal Faerun and make it the 10th level of Baator in an online role playing chat... and it stuck with me all of these 20 years. In that time ive periodically had my interest fanned a bit and have learned bits and pieces about the Blood War, but more details on Gargauth had always elluded me until this past week when I have been deeply active in research as I finally have the time, motivation, and resources to run a campaign and have always wanted to pursue this arc.
That said, if i'm waaay off base here, please correct me i'm just here putting pieces of this ancient mystery together.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Gargauth, in his apparent role of Asmodeus' assassin, was tasked with tracking down Astaroth after he was unmasked as an Abyssal lord and fled the Hells. Perhaps Astaroth was building a power base in Narfell and gaining divine power through human worship there (and from creatures on different worlds simultaneously). Perhaps, Gargauth learnt of this and manipulated a cabal of Narfelli demonbinders to summon Astaroth to the Prime where Gargauth was waiting for him and slew him, taking his guise and fooling Astaroth's unwitting mortal worshippers.
P&P states that his secret power is that Gargauth "can fully absorb the power of any baatezu he utterly destroys while in the Realms. Hence if Gargauth slays a baatezu who has been summoned to the realms, he gains no benefit, but if the fiend is physically present on the plane (perhaps having entered via a magical gate), he can absorb its power."
This leads me to believe that Astaroth must have willfully been actually present on the Material Plane as Gargauth would not have been able to absorb his power if he was summoned there.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Anyway, that's my new thinking of what happened. I always wondered why the Cult of the Dragon suddenly decided to expand to Peleveran which is miles away from anywhere.
Again, this is fairly easily explained from what i can decypher.
So its already been mentioned that:
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Under Garguath's whisperings, Algashon was influenced to turn the attention of the Cult of the Dragon south.
When Algashon was ordered to send someone to an unknown settlement in the far flung corners of Faerun, Algashon chose his most dangerous rival and essentially exiled him to Peleveran in the Shaar.
Little did he know that Gargauth himself was waiting in Peleveran, and he was disappointed that Algashon did not come in person, plus he needed enough power to shatter the very earth he was trapped in so he needed godlike powers or a flight of dragons to do his bidding.
Ok sure, but what would draw the Cult of the Dragon... anywhere? How did he lure the Cult, even with two dozen of their powerful members being manipulated by him. How did they sell this jouney to the greater cult?
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Usually, the Cult of the Dragon expands somewhere when they discover potentially recruitable dragon(s) nearby.
Of course, how they happen to stummble on this is another matter.
The answer lies right in, again P&P page 23:
"Gargauth is a loner. His few servants are undead and other creatures he can control with his charm monster ability, such as snakes and blue dragons He is often encountered astride Rathguul, a great blue wyrm with maximum hit points who serves as his steed as part of an ancient contract..."
Seems reasonable to me that, since Rathguul has been bound to Garguath since some unspecified ancient time, it would stand to reason he's been around the entire time. My theory here is that while Gargauth was trapped in the Pit beneath Peleveran for a millenia, doesnt seem far fetched to think he may have commanded Rathguul to set up his lair somewhere adjacent to or nearby the pit. Whether it be Rathguul's normal hunting, or being commanded by Gargauth to be make sure he is sighted a few times, the lure of the possibility of engaging a great blue wyrm would have been hard for CotD to resist.
On to the matter of him being trapped in the Shield.
Im my previous thread, dazzlerdal commented:
quote:
Gargauth is now a demipower trapped entirely within that shield and is completely hidden from everyone and impossible to destroy. Its the perfect place to hide.
But then I found elsewhere on these forums the 3 means of destroying the shield:
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The Shield must be subject to a disintegration spell cast by the long dead Count Vizera Zahyra Bardson-Ithal, creator of the Shield of Silvam.
The Shield must be buried within the Dark Pit of Maleficence beneath the Landrise and the ruins of the capital city of Peleveran.
The Shield must be bathed in the blood on an Abyssal Lord of the Tanar’ri and the shattered pieces dropped into the River Styx.
Now none of this says WHAT happens if the shield is destroyed. Does it in turn destroy Gargauth, or would it instead free him?
Now, since Zahyra is long dead, despite the great theorycrafting that have been done over the connection between Zahyra, the Shield and Gargauth (and its very relevant historical associations) we can rule out the first because Zahyra is long dead... unless there was chronomancy going on.
So lets take a look at the second two.
"The Shield must be buried within the Dark Pit of Maleficence beneath the Landrise and the ruins of the capital city of Peleveran."
Ok so, wouldnt this just result in trapping Gargauth in the pit, again? If thats the case then we can assume destruction of the Shield does not destroy Gargauth but releases him (presumably into the Pit again in this case).
So lets look at the last one.
"The Shield must be bathed in the blood on an Abyssal Lord of the Tanar’ri and the shattered pieces dropped into the River Styx."
Hmmmmmmmmmm well, since Gargauth is known to obey, to the letter a pact, but will twist the spirit of it whenever the opportunity presents itself to further his own goals this one is intriguing.
A few things have been speculated (though unless im mistaken, not confirmed) elsewhere on these forums:
Graz'zt was actually the son of Asmodeous and Pale Night.
Graz'zt was originally a devil sent to the Abyss on a campaign against the demons in the Blood War.
Gargauth may have been in cahoots with Graz'zt, playing both sides of the Blood War against each other, which may be the reason for his exile from the 9 Hells by Asmodeous. But could there be more to it?
Could it be that Gargauth convinced Graz'zt that he would never find true power in Baator as Asmodeous was in power and the other Lords of 9 were well established. Could he then have convinced Graz'zt that his only way to power was to be corrupted by the chaos of the Abyss and become a Demon Prince. Asmodeous' anger at Gargauth could then be 2 fold: Betraying him and corrupting his son (Lord of Hell or not, Graz'zt would have been a fine Archdevil and General of Hell) and playing both sides of the Blood War against them.
Now lets go further to say Gargauth not only tricked Graz'zt into being corrupted, but was able to enter into a pact with him in exchange for the power he sought.
That pact could have been specific or an undefined favor in the future. Gargauth could all upon this pact to have Graz'zt spill his own blood (That of a Tenar'ri Abyssal Lord) and bathe the Shield in it, then cast the shattered pieces into the River Styx (which just so happens to run through all 3 of the layers of Azzagrat.)
This event would put Gargauth free from the Shield and in the River Styx, which will eventually, return him to Baator. As such this event would need to happen in tandum with The Unveiling so that by the time he arrived in Baator, the 10th level was waiting for him and Gargauth would reign as the 10th, and supreme Lord of Hell, over throwing Asmodeous (as each layer of hell is ruled by the one below it).
Additionally, from the time which he was exiled, then trapped until now (5e time) Gargauth has had ample time to deploy his clergy and agents into nearly every organization on Faerun: the Church of Bane, Cult of the Dragon, Governments of Amn, Tethyr, and Calimshan. Its likely he could easily make a pact with the Night Masks to help them in their plot to raise a kingdom of Vampires in exchange for their worship, and sticking to the letter of that contract he very well would, thought it may not be all they hoped when the entire continent exists in Baator... but that might not be a terrible thing for Lawful Evil vampires who've spent their time manipulating their local government in true Gargauthian fashion.
Furthermore, he could likewise have infiltrated Asomdeous' clergy as well, convincing them that he no longer wished to be worshiped by name 'Asmodeous' but simply as 'The Devil' or 'The Lord of Hell', this way when Garguath succeeds in stealing Faerun, creating the 10th layer of Baator, becoming the Lord of Hell, by default all of Asmodeous' worshipers who were convinced to honor 'The Lord of Hell', would now be worshiping Gargauth causing Asmodeous to fall from godhood and Gargauth to ascend into his place.
And if all this were to happen, what would this mean to the Blood War? Would a 10th level of Baator sway the war in favor of the Devils? Or if he was playing both sides against each other all along? Could he continue his pact with Graz'zt and unite the conquer the lower planes. Either way I imagine ultimately this would lead to an all out Lower Plane assault on the Upper Planes.
Again, maybe I'm way off here... ive been absent for faaaar too long and have way more books than I care to catch up on. And sure I have gaps to fill, especially those extending further back. So at this point I'm merely theorizing partially based on the cannon references I do have, and partially based on the vast wealth of knowledge and theories here at CandleKeep.
But based on all this it is my novice opinion, that Gargauth could be the greatest threat to the Realms, whenever it may be that he decides to finally make his move.
I have 2 theories on why we may haven't seen much from Ed or anyone else on this though:
Either
1) He's leaving Gargauth hidden in the background for creative and crafty DM's to utilize in manners much like these, and actually the obfuscated lore about him lends itself EXACTLY to being used in this way AND makes the building of the campaign as much fun as running it with all of the obscure research and theorizing involved.
2) He's got one hell of a campaign adventures or series of novels planned for the future. |
Edited by - Tigon on 02 Feb 2018 12:45:33 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Tigon
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2018 : 13:26:05
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@dazzlerdal - This thread of yours is the artifact that drew me here. I'm ecstatic that you're still so active as I've got a plethora more questions, theories and plot hooks to bounce off you.
I feel quite honored too in that, ive only been roaming the keep here for less than 48 hours and have already been able to point out information to one of the sages they had previously missed. XD |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Tigon
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2018 : 13:51:44
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| I'll admit that I'm a bit surprised that Gargauth is such a hot topic being as though he's still so rather obscure. Then again, perhaps that's precisely why. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Tigon
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 12:06:51
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| Hey Dazzerdal.... Ive yet to be able to find any information on what happened to the Shield of Silvam. Where and when was it last seen? |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 17:29:25
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well it was made for King Silvam then later given to the Bormuls then it was stolen from the crypt of King Strom and finally it was restored to Tethyr by the now King Haedrak (Elminster's former apprentice Lhaeo) although I've no idea how he got hold of it.
Lhaeo was Elminster's scribe, not his apprentice. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Tigon
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 04:41:49
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well it was made for King Silvam then later given to the Bormuls then it was stolen from the crypt of King Strom and finally it was restored to Tethyr by the now King Haedrak (Elminster's former apprentice Lhaeo) although I've no idea how he got hold of it.
Where is this referenced? Id like to read up on this. Even a google search for Shield of Silvam yielded next to nothing.
PS I'm repurposing my 'Unveiling the Hidden Lord' thread as an organized repository (in as much chronological order as possible) for everything about the Lord Who Watches |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 14:07:06
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| Probably the Lands of Intrigue Boxed set from the 2E Era. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 17:40:41
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Seeker Tigon,
LoI is definitely the correct source, starting on page 25.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Tigon
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well it was made for King Silvam then later given to the Bormuls then it was stolen from the crypt of King Strom and finally it was restored to Tethyr by the now King Haedrak (Elminster's former apprentice Lhaeo) although I've no idea how he got hold of it.
Where is this referenced? Id like to read up on this. Even a google search for Shield of Silvam yielded next to nothing.
PS I'm repurposing my 'Unveiling the Hidden Lord' thread as an organized repository (in as much chronological order as possible) for everything about the Lord Who Watches
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Tigon
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 22:27:18
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I am very gracious sage! I apologize for missing this response, 2020 has been crazy and Ive just now had a moment to return to the keep here.
I picked up LoI several months back but with everything going on I havent had chance to crack into it yet. I'll do so with haste!
As a side note, looks like you're just over on the other side of the state. When once this virus crisis abates, if you ever made it over to the Emerald City for PAX or anything similar, let me know. I'd love to grab a drink or a bite to eat and chat about some lore!
Cheers!
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Seeker Tigon,
LoI is definitely the correct source, starting on page 25.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Tigon
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well it was made for King Silvam then later given to the Bormuls then it was stolen from the crypt of King Strom and finally it was restored to Tethyr by the now King Haedrak (Elminster's former apprentice Lhaeo) although I've no idea how he got hold of it.
Where is this referenced? Id like to read up on this. Even a google search for Shield of Silvam yielded next to nothing.
PS I'm repurposing my 'Unveiling the Hidden Lord' thread as an organized repository (in as much chronological order as possible) for everything about the Lord Who Watches
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 03:15:47
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I personally have been engrossed in Clan Hune and other Ilithyr lore for the whole year. I am excited to hear about Gargauth having a connection to that family because Clan Hune has an extensive history involving Ghaunadaur. I read the 5e book Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus and was clueless as to the nature of the Shield of the Hidden Lord which appeared in the story. I was lead back to said shield (and Gargauth) because I was studying the trail of Ghaunadaur's many titles. I could not find the reason behind one of these titles- "Gormauth Souldrinker". The only connection I saw was a posting on the Forgotten Realms wiki that had no citation. The post said that Ghaunadaur stole the title of Gormauth Souldrinker from Gargauth. In-fact the first appearance of this title Gormauth Souldrinker is in Demihuman Deities, which lists (with no reference in the text otherwise) among Ghaunadaur's enemies.. Gargauth.
If Gargauth is tied in with Clan Hune (which I believe is responsible for the Calimshan Crystal and the Living Gem Wars and all of that nonsense due to their hidden temple to Ghaunadaur in the region which was then raided by a certain wizard ages later) then I am even more fascinated with Gargauth's relationship to Ghaunadaur...
Thank you for the thread necromancy. I wish we had someone here who worked on Demihuman Deities who could tell us why they listed Gargauth as an enemy of Ghaunadaur and where the title of Gormauth Souldrinker truly came from. I always assumed it was vague and for the DM to decide but.. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 05:05:28
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Seeker Tigon,
No problem of course good sir. It would never be a problem, but this year makes it even more understandable for sure! I've apologized to a fair number of sages myself for not having responded for months.
Fortunately, the fine, learned individuals here have been gracious in their understanding.
quote:
I picked up LoI several months back but with everything going on I havent had chance to crack into it yet. I'll do so with haste!
I find you will love it. I absolutely loved reading that, as I have a couple of times through now.
quote:
As a side note, looks like you're just over on the other side of the state. When once this virus crisis abates, if you ever made it over to the Emerald City for PAX or anything similar, let me know. I'd love to grab a drink or a bite to eat and chat about some lore!
I am indeed over in Spokane. Are you in Seattle, or just near there I take it? I would absolutely love to meet up with you and talk some Realms lore! If you shoot me a PM on here with your email, I'll save it and keep you mind when I get over that way for sure.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 14:37:24
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
I personally have been engrossed in Clan Hune and other Ilithyr lore for the whole year. I am excited to hear about Gargauth having a connection to that family because Clan Hune has an extensive history involving Ghaunadaur. I read the 5e book Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus and was clueless as to the nature of the Shield of the Hidden Lord which appeared in the story. I was lead back to said shield (and Gargauth) because I was studying the trail of Ghaunadaur's many titles. I could not find the reason behind one of these titles- "Gormauth Souldrinker". The only connection I saw was a posting on the Forgotten Realms wiki that had no citation. The post said that Ghaunadaur stole the title of Gormauth Souldrinker from Gargauth. In-fact the first appearance of this title Gormauth Souldrinker is in Demihuman Deities, which lists (with no reference in the text otherwise) among Ghaunadaur's enemies.. Gargauth.
If Gargauth is tied in with Clan Hune (which I believe is responsible for the Calimshan Crystal and the Living Gem Wars and all of that nonsense due to their hidden temple to Ghaunadaur in the region which was then raided by a certain wizard ages later) then I am even more fascinated with Gargauth's relationship to Ghaunadaur...
Thank you for the thread necromancy. I wish we had someone here who worked on Demihuman Deities who could tell us why they listed Gargauth as an enemy of Ghaunadaur and where the title of Gormauth Souldrinker truly came from. I always assumed it was vague and for the DM to decide but..
Wait... what? You made me just doublecheck demihuman deities. It says Gargauth is an ally, not an enemy. The name Gormauth Souldrinker comes from the original drow of the underdark, but nothing is ever said about the name other than its another name. To my knowledge, there's not a whole lot of enmity between Gargauth and Ghaunadaur (at least no more than there would be between two conniving and evil priesthoods vying for power).
From drow of the underdark
Most humans find the worship of Ghaunadaur (also known as "The Elder Elemental God," "The Elder Eye," or "Gormauth Souldrinker") disgusting, but there are secret, subterranean altars and cults to the Eye all over Toril, particularly in the older and more degenerate lands of the Sword Coast South, Thay, and Kara-Tur.
What I find interesting are all the allies that I see listed, because some of these I would call indifferent or even hateful to Ghaunadaur. For instance Eilistraee and the Seldarine. I also doubt that Lolth (listed twice btw) and Selvetarm would be big fans. I'd also find it hard to figure the duergar gods, Laduguer and Deep Duerra, liking him. I wouldn't call the list mislabeled however, because things like moander, blibdoolpoolp, mind flayer deities, other insane/far realm entities, etc... do kind of make sense. I think this list should be taken with some skepticism and chalk it up to Eric or someone else being tired and bleary eyed (which considering all the great work in this, hey stuff happens), or simply a cut and paste error that got missed.
From Demihuman Deities
ALLIES: Bwimb (dead), Moander (dead) Deep Duerra, Eilistraee, Gargauth, Laduguer, Lolth, the Seldarine, Selvetarm, Vhaeraun, Lolth, Malar, Selvetarm, Vhaeraun, Blibdoolpoolp, the Blood Queen, Diinkarazan, Diirinka, Great Mother, Gzemnid, llsensine, Ilxendren, Laogzed, Maanzecorian (dead), Psilofyr |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 14:58:57
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| Only Bwimb and Moander were (still are, in the case of Moander, I guess) his allies. The rest are listed under foes. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Clan Hune, Illythiir, Illehune, Gargauth
