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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Jul 2014 : 20:40:57
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No, I don't think you're reading too much into it. (hint, hint)  
love,
THO |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2014 : 23:40:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
No, I don't think you're reading too much into it. (hint, hint)
love,
THO
Now that is quite interesting!
@dazzlerdal: Excellent find! |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 09:37:49
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| One more connection to add: Valas Hune from WotSQ. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 18:28:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
No, I don't think you're reading too much into it. (hint, hint)
love,
THO
Yeah, nice to see long-ago planted seeds finally reaching little shoots of plot-plant up toward the sun.
Steven
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For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 18:55:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
One more connection to add: Valas Hune from WotSQ.
That was Ozzl'Hune originally. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2014 : 21:16:34
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I think I've just had a brain wave (or im losing the plot). It only occurred to me because of the Illehune - Clan Hune - Illythiir - Gargauth connection.
Gargauth was trapped in the Pit of xxxx beneath Peleveran for quite some time until 1018 DR.
Tithklar Illehune Illehhune discovered the Hidden Shield late in the 9th century DR in the Fields of the Dead in the Western Heartlands.
Sammaster met Algashon Nathaire late in the 9th century DR around Baldur's Gate (In the Western Heartlands).
It just struck me that Algashon may well have been a hereditary member of the Knights of the Shield.
Gargauth needed a way out of the Pit he was trapped in. He had no way of reaching anyone in Peleveran (im guessing they had to be in very close proximity for him to communicate with them). His only means of communication with the outside world was through the Shield of the Hidden Lord that had been used to bind him into the pit in the first place (probably by Halaster).
He also had a blood tie to the descendants of Clan Hune of the Illythiiri. The bloodline had been corrupted in the Illythiiri when they were transformed into drow, but he was still connected to the human descendants of slaves and captives taken by Clan Hune (and mated with) in Keltormir during the Crown Wars.
He reached out to Tithklar and drew him to the forgotten barrow that he was trapped in. Then he began helping Tithklar rebuild the Knights of the Shield. One of those members was Algashon Nathaire, a minor member who had recently become embroiled in the affairs of Sammaster.
In 916 DR Sammaster was killed and Algashon and the Cult of the Dragon was forced to disperse north and west by its enemies. This took Algashon into the Western Heartlands once more and given his now more prominent position among the Cult of the Dragon, he was soon elevated to the newly formed Shield Council of the Knights of the Shield.
With new resources at his disposal it didn't take long for Algashon to unite the Cult behind his banner and make a return to Sembia and the gateway to the Inner Sea over the following century.
Under Garguath's whisperings, Algashon was influenced to turn the attention of the Cult of the Dragon south.
When Algashon was ordered to send someone to an unknown settlement in the far flung corners of Faerun, Algashon chose his most dangerous rival and essentially exiled him to Peleveran in the Shaar.
Little did he know that Gargauth himself was waiting in Peleveran, and he was disappointed that Algashon did not come in person, plus he needed enough power to shatter the very earth he was trapped in so he needed godlike powers or a flight of dragons to do his bidding.
Anyway, that's my new thinking of what happened. I always wondered why the Cult of the Dragon suddenly decided to expand to Peleveran which is miles away from anywhere. But if Algashon was a member of the Shield Council then Gargauth could have ordered someone there.
Is it coincidence that Algashon is hearing the whisperings of Gargauth now in 1374 DR after his return to unlife. Yes Gargauth spoke to Algashon briefly in 1018 DR to inform him of Tuelhalva's plans but that is not enough to inspire lifelong devotion to a god, it makes more sense if his exposure to Gargauth was subtler and over a longer period.
I doubt I will be so lucky as to get THO or Ed's opinion on this theory twice in one thread but I can hope.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2014 : 00:27:25
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| Adding my +1 to liking this idea of Gargauth using the Knights of the Shield to free himself using the Cult of the Dragon. The dates seem to be viable (According to Cloak and Dagger the Knights of the Shield were formed in -170 DR, and according to P&P Tuelhalva Drakewings frees Gargauth after 1001 DR). It might work better if Algashon were simply using the Knights as information brokers, and they fed him information that led him to send Tuelhalva there, as Algashon might be too firmly a Banite to also be a shield council member (i.e. unless Gargauth convinced Algashon that he was the voice of Bane... could be problematic though). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2014 : 15:59:13
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Hope, dazzlerdal, shall set you triumphant. 
Your speculations regarding Gargauth's bid for freedom are very, ah, omniscient. Almost as if you can read Ed's mind...
(Hey! That's MY job!) 
love,
THO |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2014 : 00:54:10
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
He also had a blood tie to the descendants of Clan Hune of the Illythiiri. The bloodline had been corrupted in the Illythiiri when they were transformed into drow, but he was still connected to the human descendants of slaves and captives taken by Clan Hune (and mated with) in Keltormir during the Crown Wars.
What "connected to the human descendants of slaves and captives" is worth?
Also, why some people think of the Drow - or Illythiiri for that matter - as something like immature WASPs with nothing better to do than "improve value" of their property personally? Between elven high standards (at least on the looks), being kind of busy with things more interesting for them and the mindsets cultivated among the followers of either Lolth or Ghanadaur, this sort of behaviour sounds at least unlikely.
quote:
Anyway, that's my new thinking of what happened. I always wondered why the Cult of the Dragon suddenly decided to expand to Peleveran which is miles away from anywhere.
Usually, the Cult of the Dragon expands somewhere when they discover potentially recruitable dragon(s) nearby.
Of course, how they happen to stummble on this is another matter. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2014 : 01:45:17
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Unfortunately not being an elf I can only impose human like behaviour upon the subjects. Taking a substitute lover (willing or not) while away on war is not something new for humans.
The fact that the Illythiir were demon influenced suggests to me they had embraced their baser instincts like violence, sex, cruelty, vengeance etc. The human slaves could have been taken for property value as slaves (which yes would warranty some improvement to increase its usefulness), they could have been taken to provide extra troops on the frontline (again warranting some improvement), or perhaps the elves just did it because they could.
Its not like this kind of thing doesn't happen with the drow, Dambrath being a good example. I just view the Illythiiri as drow without the curse so whatever they do now is similar to what they did them, especially after they had been corrupted by Wendonai.
And besides, if THO/Ed says its true then for me its true.
On to the demon connection thing, I take it as very important having a blood connection with an incredibly powerful outsider. I believe some of the War of the Spider Queen or Lady Penitent novels established that Wendonai's blood is mingled with that of the drow (through obvious means I would expect).
A lot of fiction places importance on a blood link to provide justification for rather unlikely circumstances. In the realms itself it could be that the descent of the Illythiiri was purely based on a blood link with Araushnee (although you have to ignore the recent revelation of brown elves and go with past intimations that the Illythiiri were actually green elves).
If Gargauth were trapped for millennia in a planar rift/prison at the bottom of a huge hole in the ground then he is going to need outside help to get out. I picture him sending his mind out into the world a bit like Xavier in XMen when he uses cerebro to find mutants (but without cerebro). Gargauth is searching for someone nearby that is receptive to his temptations and whispering so he needs someone that is evil at their very core and whose mind wont be shattered by the strange visions he sends them. Obviously a creature related to Gargauth himself is going to be first choice, and it just so happens one is nearby to the shield. Yes its flimsy but not impossible, and its more likely than just a random accident, and more interesting. It wouldn't surprise me if Gargauth tried communicating with several people in the nearby area only to have them commit suicide or murder or become gibbering wrecks, then he found Tithklar.
And again if THO/Ed says its true then for me its true. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2014 : 20:48:58
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Came across some interesting quotes in Cloak and Dagger that bear some mention
First is
quote:
For over three centuries, at least one member of the Shield Council has secretly been a priest of Gargauth, serving as the Speaker for the Hidden Lord in the Outcast’s cult.
So it looks to me that until 3 centuries ago, which coincides nicely with 1018 DR, Gargauth was imprisoned and unable to ascend, the site of his imprisonment was the pit beneath peleveran (not the shield). He ascends after the battle at the Sign of the Silver Harp and then his cult must have arisen centred around the Shield Council.
This also leads me to believe that there is a possibility that Algashon himself rose to the position of Speaker for the Hidden Lord some time between 920 DR and 1018 DR. That way Gargauth communicated to Algashon through the shield. It also gives a clue as to why Algashon now (in 1374 DR) is turning towards worship of Gargauth.
The curses of the shield are as follows:
quote:
While in direct physical contact with the Shield, the bearer is subject to the whisperings of Gargauth. Relentless litanies of chanting in the language of Baator, those whisperings have the potential to drive the subject mad. For every round in contact with the Shield, the bearer must make a Wisdom check. Failure indicates that the subject acts immediately on his cruelest and most basic instinct.
The use of any invoked power cloaks the bearer of the Shield in an amber radiance for 1 round and subjects him to the effects of a spiritual corruption spell. Additional invocations of the Shield’s powers cause the amber radiance to manifest again. There is no additional effect unless the Shield bearer has already escaped the effects of the spiritual corruption spell, in which case the process begins anew.
I checked out the Spiritual Corruption spell and it eventually turns a being towards worship of Gargauth.
Then there is this quote
quote:
The Outcast can also employ the shield as a conduit for his manifestations, and has done so on at least two occasions.
I checked out the manifestations of Gargauth and his manifestations are his avatar obviously, as an amber glow around anyone calling his aid (it has the spiritual corruption effect noted above), as a bone protrusion (horn) growing from the head of an animal, and as a thick carpet of thousands of serpents or insects, or a flock of simpathetics.
So if any of these events are detailed in the history of Faerun in the past 300 years in the Heartlands region (Western Heartlands, Tethyr, Amn, Dalelands, Cormyr, Sembia) then that will be one of the two events mentioned above. Although I think the two manifestations will be the corrupting amber radiance (one of which might have been on Algashon).
And finally the means of destruction I find most interesting, particularly the first one.
quote:
The Shield must be subject to a disintegration spell cast by the long dead Count Vizera Zahyra Bardson-Ithal, creator of the Shield of Silvam.
The Shield must be buried within the Dark Pit of Maleficence beneath the Landrise and the ruins of the capital city of Peleveran.
The Shield must be bathed in the blood on an Abyssal Lord of the Tanar’ri and the shattered pieces dropped into the River Styx.
I can understand the last two methods of destruction. Gargauth was imprisoned inside the pit for a long time and I think the pit opens onto the Abyss. Gargauth has a power that allows him to consume and absorb the power of tanar'ri (and baatezu according to P&P) so bathing a baatezu powered artefact into the blood of a demon lord is going to break it.
However the first method is quite specific and unusual. Why have the shield destroyed if hit by a spell cast by the first vizera of Tethyr.
Artefacts can typically be destroyed by the creator or using methods similar to its creation (The One Ring for instance) so perhaps Zahyra was not so beneficient as she first appears.
Certainly she was a very powerful spellcaster, and she created a shield designed to protect King Silvam which seems a good act, but it had powers that allowed communication over long distances (like the shield of the hidden lord). Zahyra was rumoured to be in a relationship with Silvam and undoubtedly had a lot of influence over the king of Tethyr, it would not be outside of the remit of a worshipper of Gargauth to use any means (including generosity) to gain a position of power (look at Inselm Hhune and his loyalty to Zaranda).
Then there is this quote quote:
The clan lords distrusted Rhynda because of her status as Vizera and former apprentice of the much-maligned First Vizera Zahyra Ithal.
Why was Zahyra much maligned, maybe the ill feeling was not unfounded.
I wonder if Zahyra was involved in creating the Shield of the Hidden Lord for Gargauth. Certainly the description of the Shield of Silvam and the Shield of the Hidden Lord bear some similarities (a round shield made of mithril.
Of course as to what purpose she helped the create the shield I don't know. Anyone have any suggestions.
If I wonder about THO appearing again with some more nods of agreement or a clue about the creation of the Shield of the Hidden Lord, do you think I can get three times in one thread? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2014 : 00:09:20
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Came across some interesting quotes in Cloak and Dagger that bear some mention
First is
quote:
For over three centuries, at least one member of the Shield Council has secretly been a priest of Gargauth, serving as the Speaker for the Hidden Lord in the Outcast’s cult.
So it looks to me that until 3 centuries ago, which coincides nicely with 1018 DR, Gargauth was imprisoned and unable to ascend, the site of his imprisonment was the pit beneath peleveran (not the shield). He ascends after the battle at the Sign of the Silver Harp and then his cult must have arisen centred around the Shield Council.
This also leads me to believe that there is a possibility that Algashon himself rose to the position of Speaker for the Hidden Lord some time between 920 DR and 1018 DR. That way Gargauth communicated to Algashon through the shield. It also gives a clue as to why Algashon now (in 1374 DR) is turning towards worship of Gargauth.
The curses of the shield are as follows:
quote:
While in direct physical contact with the Shield, the bearer is subject to the whisperings of Gargauth. Relentless litanies of chanting in the language of Baator, those whisperings have the potential to drive the subject mad. For every round in contact with the Shield, the bearer must make a Wisdom check. Failure indicates that the subject acts immediately on his cruelest and most basic instinct.
The use of any invoked power cloaks the bearer of the Shield in an amber radiance for 1 round and subjects him to the effects of a spiritual corruption spell. Additional invocations of the Shield’s powers cause the amber radiance to manifest again. There is no additional effect unless the Shield bearer has already escaped the effects of the spiritual corruption spell, in which case the process begins anew.
I checked out the Spiritual Corruption spell and it eventually turns a being towards worship of Gargauth.
Then there is this quote
quote:
The Outcast can also employ the shield as a conduit for his manifestations, and has done so on at least two occasions.
I checked out the manifestations of Gargauth and his manifestations are his avatar obviously, as an amber glow around anyone calling his aid (it has the spiritual corruption effect noted above), as a bone protrusion (horn) growing from the head of an animal, and as a thick carpet of thousands of serpents or insects, or a flock of simpathetics.
So if any of these events are detailed in the history of Faerun in the past 300 years in the Heartlands region (Western Heartlands, Tethyr, Amn, Dalelands, Cormyr, Sembia) then that will be one of the two events mentioned above. Although I think the two manifestations will be the corrupting amber radiance (one of which might have been on Algashon).
And finally the means of destruction I find most interesting, particularly the first one.
quote:
The Shield must be subject to a disintegration spell cast by the long dead Count Vizera Zahyra Bardson-Ithal, creator of the Shield of Silvam.
The Shield must be buried within the Dark Pit of Maleficence beneath the Landrise and the ruins of the capital city of Peleveran.
The Shield must be bathed in the blood on an Abyssal Lord of the Tanar’ri and the shattered pieces dropped into the River Styx.
I can understand the last two methods of destruction. Gargauth was imprisoned inside the pit for a long time and I think the pit opens onto the Abyss. Gargauth has a power that allows him to consume and absorb the power of tanar'ri (and baatezu according to P&P) so bathing a baatezu powered artefact into the blood of a demon lord is going to break it.
However the first method is quite specific and unusual. Why have the shield destroyed if hit by a spell cast by the first vizera of Tethyr.
Artefacts can typically be destroyed by the creator or using methods similar to its creation (The One Ring for instance) so perhaps Zahyra was not so beneficient as she first appears.
Certainly she was a very powerful spellcaster, and she created a shield designed to protect King Silvam which seems a good act, but it had powers that allowed communication over long distances (like the shield of the hidden lord). Zahyra was rumoured to be in a relationship with Silvam and undoubtedly had a lot of influence over the king of Tethyr, it would not be outside of the remit of a worshipper of Gargauth to use any means (including generosity) to gain a position of power (look at Inselm Hhune and his loyalty to Zaranda).
Then there is this quote quote:
The clan lords distrusted Rhynda because of her status as Vizera and former apprentice of the much-maligned First Vizera Zahyra Ithal.
Why was Zahyra much maligned, maybe the ill feeling was not unfounded.
I wonder if Zahyra was involved in creating the Shield of the Hidden Lord for Gargauth. Certainly the description of the Shield of Silvam and the Shield of the Hidden Lord bear some similarities (a round shield made of mithril.
Of course as to what purpose she helped the create the shield I don't know. Anyone have any suggestions.
If I wonder about THO appearing again with some more nods of agreement or a clue about the creation of the Shield of the Hidden Lord, do you think I can get three times in one thread?
Holy cow, now THAT is a good find. Good work man. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2014 : 18:10:00
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Uhm interesting conundrums.
I doubt Zahyra's supposed affiliation to Gargauth (if there it was) could be discovered by the barbarian Clans of Tethyr that shunned magic.
I suspect the "much-maligned" is related to political struggles and power balances among the Clans but that's just a feeling i get from some of the changes in Clan balance in Tethyr in the years during which she was Court Vizera (-170 to -99 DR).
She was the offspring of a union of two Clans (she was named Bardson-Ithal) and married into a third Clan (she was the wife of the king cousin, the king cousins were Amir Tarseth II and Ra'id Tarseth II, sons of the treacherous Amir Tarseth I that had King Darrom killed), her appointment as Court Vizera was opposed by her aunt-in-law (the half-elf Queen Saraala Tarseth, mother of King Silvam) for unknown reasons, she was suspected to have a secret relationship with the king, the Tarseth Clan nobility was obliterated in -133 DR but we know that she survived until -99 DR and somehow the Ithal Clan Chief in -91 DR ended up being Zahyryn Ithal (we don't know who his parents were but the name sure gives some hints, right?).
So i think by the time Rhynda was on the doorstep of Regency the Clans where wary of a female (no female ruled them until her) spellcaster (there was a rise in local supertitions against magic [from Lands of Intrigue: Tethyr page 27]) tutored by the previous Vizera (whose political machination were probably infamous since the Ithal Clan Chief was of her blood and maybe the son of a bastard of King Silvam too? Oh the horror!).
That was a time of strife among the Clans and i think the reasons for dislikes and distrusts were mainly political.
BUT that's not to say that Court Vizera Zahyra Bardson-Ithal had nothing to do with Gargauth or the Shield of the Hidden Lord. After all, it's very suspect for a random Clan woman of Tethyr (a land of wild/sylvan elves and almost barbaric humans) to be so well versed in the Art ("her magical powers amazed many" quoted from Lands of Intrigue: Tethyr page 26) as to create two very powerful magic items.
I believe (part of) the answer to this conundrum lies with the identity of her mysterious mentor (the one i suspect was the source of her mastery of the Art and that, through her, started the Shoon dynasty in Calimshan [Akkabar Shoon was a colleague and student of Rhynda, herself student of Zahyra]).
On the topic of the two Shields, i don't find any similarity beyond the fact they were shields of mithral.
Both are around in the 1360s (the Shield of the Hidden Lord with the Knights, the Shield of Silvam with Prince later King Headrak) and i'm going to play with the fact some external influence want to steer the Knights actions towards their true ancestral doings (treasurers and information gatherers for the Crown of Tethyr).
Zahyra and her mysterious mentor had a lot of time to craft the Shield of the Hidden Lord, but i'm at a loss as to why she would do such a thing (maybe it was an artifact planned to contain Gargauth that over time was completely corrupted?), when she did it and who her mentor was (Halaster is out, still in stasis while Zahyra was alive).
EDIT: Oh, also on this ...
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
If I wonder about THO appearing again with some more nods of agreement or a clue about the creation of the Shield of the Hidden Lord, do you think I can get three times in one thread?
Here in Italy we have a saying "Non c'č due senza tre", meaning that something that happened two times is bound to happen a third time. |
Edited by - Demzer on 22 Jul 2014 18:13:10 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2014 : 19:59:34
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See that was my thought.
Zahyra Bardsson Ithal has done nothing overtly bad yet everyone seemed to dislike her.
She was very powerful and that usually garners dislike and mistrust.
However just because she has never been caught doing something bad doesn't mean she isn't bad, it just means she was smart.
It was the rumour of a relationship with King Silvam that got me thinking she could be a wrongun. After all she was a relative nobody before being made court Vizera. Then suddenly she is catapulted to a position of near absolute power, no one is going to have more power over the king (except perhaps his wife, although it looks like Zahyra managed to beat her control as well).
Political games, intrigue, corruption, that all sounds like the schemes of Gargauth (of course he wasn't a god then, he was just a regular ex lord of the nine - if there is such a thing as "regular" ex lord of the nine).
The fact that Zahyra has a mentor who helps her create the Shield of Silvam I find intriguing. She sounds like an awesomely powerful wizardess so why would she need any help, and more importantly who was this mysterious mentor?
I think the only reason for Gargauth creating the shield is to bend people towards worship of him. Passing the shield on to key individuals is more or less guaranteed to convert them to evil and bend them towards Gargauth's will. Zahyra could pass it to Rhynda who passes it to Shoon and every single one of them was an evil conniving snake so perhaps they all held it at some point.
Rhynda's coming to rule Tethyr was certainly as suspect as Vizera Zahyra's rise to power. King Garynor Ithal dying suddenly with his only heir an infant of four years.
The whole state of succession from Silvam to Shoon was very suspect, as though someone was orchestrating the whole thing behind the scenes (Gargauth), bumping off people so he could get more control.
Through the shield Gargauth could control the direction of Tethyr (and later Shoon) for hundreds of years. Then I think about what happened in Shoon that was exactly what Gargauth wanted, for the empire to bring in hundreds of baatezu and tanar'ri for him to devour.
The more I read about the early kings of Tethyr the more I think the whole thing stinks of evil plotting, but maybe that's just because I am looking for it. |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2014 : 20:20:18
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
See that was my thought.
Zahyra Bardsson Ithal has done nothing overtly bad yet everyone seemed to dislike her.
She was very powerful and that usually garners dislike and mistrust.
However just because she has never been caught doing something bad doesn't mean she isn't bad, it just means she was smart.
It was the rumour of a relationship with King Silvam that got me thinking she could be a wrongun. After all she was a relative nobody before being made court Vizera. Then suddenly she is catapulted to a position of near absolute power, no one is going to have more power over the king (except perhaps his wife, although it looks like Zahyra managed to beat her control as well).
Political games, intrigue, corruption, that all sounds like the schemes of Gargauth (of course he wasn't a god then, he was just a regular ex lord of the nine - if there is such a thing as "regular" ex lord of the nine).
The fact that Zahyra has a mentor who helps her create the Shield of Silvam I find intriguing. She sounds like an awesomely powerful wizardess so why would she need any help, and more importantly who was this mysterious mentor?
I think the only reason for Gargauth creating the shield is to bend people towards worship of him. Passing the shield on to key individuals is more or less guaranteed to convert them to evil and bend them towards Gargauth's will. Zahyra could pass it to Rhynda who passes it to Shoon and every single one of them was an evil conniving snake so perhaps they all held it at some point.
Rhynda's coming to rule Tethyr was certainly as suspect as Vizera Zahyra's rise to power. King Garynor Ithal dying suddenly with his only heir an infant of four years.
The whole state of succession from Silvam to Shoon was very suspect, as though someone was orchestrating the whole thing behind the scenes (Gargauth), bumping off people so he could get more control.
Through the shield Gargauth could control the direction of Tethyr (and later Shoon) for hundreds of years. Then I think about what happened in Shoon that was exactly what Gargauth wanted, for the empire to bring in hundreds of baatezu and tanar'ri for him to devour.
The more I read about the early kings of Tethyr the more I think the whole thing stinks of evil plotting, but maybe that's just because I am looking for it.
This is fascinating to watch and read, as it's a whole new way to interpret and use the materials we left lying around in the sandbox.
I won't bother you with my understanding of Zahyra (as her creator) because it's both irrelevant and disruptive to what you're building here. I'm enjoying it too much to mess with your train of thought.
I will say I wanted Zahyra to be a near-mythological figure of mystery and confusion and magic that could be used from any number of angles. (And I deleted a list of inspirations and ideas from which she sprang, as that'd disturb and disrupt things, which is far from my intention.)
Remember, there's the matter of her volumes of diaries/journals recovered from her tomb, so there's lots of hinted at material to plumb and plant plot seeds of your own.
Cheering on this new stuff from 16+ year old material....and hope that people find more to plumb from this and other works in the future.
Steven
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For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Edited by - Steven Schend on 22 Jul 2014 20:22:42 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2014 : 21:23:34
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OMG
This is about the last court Vizera Wyvorlaa
quote:
In the Year of Dawn Moons (1188 DR), she was discovered to be consorting with foul undead and an ancient lich in caverns below the Starspire Mountains.
Of course the undead the quote refers to is actually the Twisted Rune.
But guess where Zahyra's tomb is located
quote:
Manuscripts on this time were recently uncovered in the Starspire Mountains by agents of my court historian. They discovered the lost tomb of First Vizera Zahyra Ithal, and they gave our court 52 bound diaries and a septet of magical workbooks and notebooks, which are our sources of these histories and were authenticated by my court Vizera and my Court Sage. In addition, various artifacts from this period were found, including the spectacular Eye of Zahyra, a longfabled crystal ball with connections to the Shield of Silvam.
Now why would Zahyra entomb herself with the Eye of Zahyra unless she wasn't really dead and actually wanted to keep an eye on the kings of Tethyr. The Shield of Silvam certainly wasn't entombed with her, in fact Tethyr seems to have tried to horde all the artefacts of its past as royal regalia (they have tons) but over the years they got lost.
And thanks to Steven Schend's clue I went digging and found a preview of the Lands of Intrigue with some information that was cut from the final release.
quote:
[Private Note] Elminster, Zee and I have informed our people of the discovery of the Tomb of Zahyra, First Vizera, at Greencourt this year to much confusion and shock. However, as the Seekers of Knowledge informed the court, they were led to it by Zahyra's spirit, which entreated them to enter (despite their misgivings). Given various tests by priests and mages alike, the trio of adventurer-scholars were found truthful and loyal, and thus were spared the usual boiling-deaths of tomb-robbers. Still, while the information and artifacts found in the crypt are highly valuable to our Court, a number of nobles have petitioned me to restore them to the tomb—A measure I intend to fulfill in part upon yours arrival.
What was not said among open Court was even more astonishing. I only quote them here now, El, as they told me of what the ghost said to them over a year ago: "The star has risen, and the lion breaches the waves once more. All I know must be known again, that the work of noble Darrom and my beloved Silvam may begin anew. When the time is right, the star, the lion, and my lady's elect may visit me, and my destiny and Tethyr's glory shall be fulfilled." Now, obviously Zee and I are invited, as our personal symbols mark us as the star and lion. Now, the `elect' I believe are Mystra's Chosen, since Zahyra's diaries show that she never once referred to any of her queens as `my lady,' given the queens' hostilities toward her; thus, the lady becomes, of course, her goddess Mystra.
I should like you, Alustriel, Laeral, and Khelben to accompany us to the tomb to hear what Zahyra asks of us; Sylune has already requested an audience with another who seems, like her, dead yet still among the living. We can cloak this meeting during some official function requiring delegates of the Lords' Alliance to travel to Tethyr, and clandestinely answer the summons of this ancient sage.
I have kept the tomb's location secret, and only my Court Sage, Vizera, the queen, and the tomb's explorers know where it lies. I look forward to seeing you again that we may share this quest for hidden knowledge. —King Haedrak
Now it may be my suspicious mind but I reckon that meeting is a trap. Gargauth appears to have been no friend of the Harpers (created by Elminster and other members of the chosen). I can't think who "Zee" is at the moment but getting all the chosen into one place and killing them all off sounds devilish. I haven't looked into the chosen yet but I wonder when the seven sister's were born? |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2014 : 08:49:18
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I can't think who "Zee" is at the moment but getting all the chosen into one place and killing them all off sounds devilish. I haven't looked into the chosen yet but I wonder when the seven sister's were born?
I think "Zee" is how King Haedrak calls Queen Zaranda Star in private.
EDIT: Also ...
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
... getting all the chosen into one place and killing them all off sounds devilish.
It sounds incredibly stupid as a plan for someone with Gargauth's pedigree. |
Edited by - Demzer on 23 Jul 2014 09:00:13 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2014 : 16:31:22
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The "work of noble Darrom and beloved Silvam" may be the establishment of long lasting friendship with the elves of Waeldath. Before the Ithal dynasty the elves and the clansmen cooperated only to the extent of getting the Calishite off their back and by the time Zahyra died the ruling times of Darrom and Silvam had seen a great friendship built between humans and elves (with marriages and alliances).
Zahyra may have predicted/foreseen the troubling relationship between elves and humans in Tethyr in the following years and that only working together elves and humans could overcome all obstacles and make Tethyr reach its full potential. Her prophecy speaks of Zaranda and Haedrak with little doubt, it's the involvement of Mystra's Chosens that's mysterious. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2014 : 20:28:17
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
By the time Gargauth escapes his imprisonment the order is nearly gone.
On this point i'm not sure. The Shield of the Hidden Lord was found in 889 DR and from that point onward the Knights of the Shield just growed and growed in influence and power, while Gargauth was released only in 1018 DR.
I think that like all super-powerful extraplanar begins that are just a step below godhood, Gargauth could still project an image, comunicate and act through items specifically linked to him. The Shield was just this sort of item and Gargauth lurked in wait until Tithklar Illehhune was near enough for the baatezu to use their blood connection to compel the adventurer into unhearting the Shield. Then things probably went as you theorized regarding Algashon.
I tried to get some clues on two things and i report here the little i have found.
1) Zahyra's mentor: this mysterious figure is responsible for a lot of things, he started a chain reaction that had important and long-lasting influences in the Southern Sword Coast development. I've tried to nail down his/her identity by escluding who couldn't be there at the time (around -170 DR):
- Azuth is out, the first magister about which we have informations is Shornthal Imynster who reigned between 136 and 148 DR, we don't know for sure if he's the 2nd Magister but since all the Magisters except Azuth seem covered and Azuth is the only one with some reason to have an unknown past, it's not a stretch to think that Shornthal was the 2nd and that Mystra 1.0 didn't wait long after Azuth's ascension before naming another Magister. So Azuth would be a couple of centuries too late to be Zahyra's mentor and besides, from what we know of him, he doesn't seem to have been the kind of archmage to set up shop amidst barbarians just to teach magic to some random girl (he was a powerhungry energetic genius of spellcasting);
- Hilather is out, still in stasis (he awakened in 128 DR);
- a random elven High Mage is out, there were none in Tethyr and the nearest one was the baelnorn inside the Calimemnon Crystal, besides, Zahyra was a human and i don't think any elven mage of the time would teach a human of that land magic;
- the Runemasters of the Twisted Rune are out, even Rysellan the Dark, the first and founder Runemaster, they're all wizards of the Shoon era or more recent times (from 600 to 300 years prior to 1370 DR);
- all modern human Chosens of Mystra that i know of are out because weren't even born yet;
I know the following it's just a shot in the dark, but either we bring into play some long forgotten wielder of Art (a Netherese Arcanist, another unknown Imaskari Artificer, a random Sarrukh) or we drag Larloch out of his crypt and say that this was one of his attempts at steering civilization one way or another (we know he did something like this in his long career). I say these for two reasons: his involvement in essence created a long line of archmages still alive to this day (Shoon VII, even the Twisted Rune, since all members studied magic in the Shoon era) and prevented human realms from being swept away by otherwordly aberrations like the beholders, both are things that i can see Larloch doing. Also there is this story in Empire of the Shining Sea (page 21) that says that one of the petty eye tyrant terrorizing Calimshan at the time was killed by the animated statue of a petrified soldier whose eyes shined green, like the eyes of Larloch's liches when he's "riding" them. No one ever took credit for the death of the beholder, it just happened this way.
2) Gargauth's ascension: putting together information from various sources we know that:
- Gargauth was granting spells around 1070 DR;
- Gargauth was freed in 1018 DR;
- Gargauth was still a "wild baatezu" and confronted Elminster and Khelben (and fled) at the battle of the Sign of the Silver Harp between 1022 DR (refounding of the Harpers) and 1065 DR (the Harpers kill the dracolich Alglaudyx);
- we know the battle at the Sign was a good chunk of time after the refounding of the Harpers (they had time to evolve from a wandering adventuring band to the Harpers adventuring band to the Harpers organization and voice of their activities and "base" at the Sign had to circle around a bit before the Banites decided to show up) and we know that the Harpers killed that dracolich only "Shortly (there)after ..." the battle at the Sign;
So Gargauth ascended in the middles 1000s, probably before 1060 and 1070 DR. That's a hell of a short time to gather enough energy/worshipers to ascend given that Gargauth was imprisoned until 1018, couldn't grant spells and his involvement with the Knights was a well kept secret (it still is today). So i think that he used his unique ability of absorption of power from slayed fiends to ascend, probably after his cowardly retreat against Elminster and Khelben. This means he needed to beat either some powerful fiends or a lot of common fiends. I doubt in his weakened state he would dare go to the Abyss or the Nine Hells to battle powerful fiends and we don't know of other powerful demon or devil lords that "graced" Faerun with their presence and disappeared after 1018 DR. On the other hand Faerun isn't exactly overloaded with common fiends except in some particular case: Narfell was long past, Thay was stable and had stopped using fiendish armies to gain indipendence before the turning of the millennium, Impiltur was largely cleaned up by the end of "the Scouring" in 851 DR. The only place with a lot of fiends was Hellgate Keep, there Gargauth could assassinate fiends to his heart content while disguised as a tanar'ri and avoiding detection from the world outside.
So, that's two cannonballs in the dark from me, your turn. |
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Clan Hune, Illythiir, Illehune, Gargauth
