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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Oct 2020 : 04:23:12
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Good evening fellow Sages,
I found an interesting little tidbit about the war that I had to share as I was reading some material recently.
I was checking up on some material regarding Khazari, and cracked open my lovely copy of the tome on the Horde campaign, and ran across a time inconsistency.
On Ches 19, 1359DR, Yamun Khahan arrived quote:
...with 6,000 men, leaving the rest to infiltrate other, narrower, passes through the mountains.
Now, of course we know he was at Manass. However, what is interesting to me is that he was making his decision to attack Khazari presupposed upon the success of his son, Hubadai. We know this because it is stated that, quote:
Yamun Khahan sought to conquer Khazari as he had Hubadai conquer Semphar.
What is interesting about the approach for Hubadai as he entered Semphar is that his three tunem's took a (3) pronged approach with two tunem going through Fergana Pass, and one tunem going through the Howling Gap. Once through Fergana Pass, the two tunem with Hubadai at that time split after defeating Dar al Kalif. The three tunem moved extremely fast, but even as quickly as they moved Hubadai's army arrived at quote:
...the city on Ches 30, the remaining troops arrived within the next few days.
So, the question here is:
Now, I know what you're thinking, Yamun Khahan's quote:
...network of Imperial messengers who would rise across the steppe changing horses at pre-arranged way stations. Through this network messages could travel nearly 100 miles in a day.
, perhaps were so fast they could have conveyed a message to the Khahan in time to know of the success. Using the FRIA, the distance from Manass to Dhazantar is approximately 1,104 miles. While the Imperial messengers could get there in (11) days, that still puts it at Tarsakh 1, 1359DR. Now, considering the possibility of magic, we know that is a non-starter as they did, quote:
...not use magic, but it tended to frighten them. Several times during the Horde Wars, when magic was used against them, their attacks ceased. The magical attacks terrorized the horses and panicked warriors. Only twice (the battle of Shou Khan and the Battle of Dragonwall) did the nomads use any extensive magic in battle.
So, the question to you all is:
Am I missing something here regarding Yamun Khahan knowing of his son Hubadai's victory, that happened (7) days after Yamun Khahan forced the surrender of Prince Ogandi? There should be no way that the Khahan knew of his son's victory, which would of course be strategically crucial to the Khahan's commitment of his forces to attack at Manass, as they were over 1,000 miles away, without any reinforcements, and uncertain of the efficacy of that attack, when possibly marshaling all of their forces could help ensure a victory somewhere at least.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2020 : 04:58:40
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"Yamun Khahan sought to conquer Khazari as he had Hubadai conquer Semphar."
I read that line differently. It seems that you are reading it as "since Hubadai was successful at doing the thing, Pops decided to do this other thing." I'm reading it as "Pops was doing this one thing while Junior was off doing this other thing."
Or to restate the original line: "Yamun Khahan sought to conquer Khazari while Hubadai was conquering Semphar."
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2020 : 06:31:32
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Master Rupert,
quote:
"Yamun Khahan sought to conquer Khazari as he had Hubadai conquer Semphar." I read that line differently. It seems that you are reading it as "since Hubadai was successful at doing the thing, Pops decided to do this other thing."
You are correct indeed. That is how I was reading it.
quote:
I'm reading it as "Pops was doing this one thing while Junior was off doing this other thing." Or to restate the original line: "Yamun Khahan sought to conquer Khazari while Hubadai was conquering Semphar."
I did put some thought to that, but then I looked up the education and work experience of both Curtis M. Scott (author) and Douglas Stewart (editor), and my impression is that an oversight like that, regarding a past participle such as 'had' seemed really unlikely. Mr. Scott was very well educated at Carnegy, and Mr. Stewart has an astoundingly good record [https://www.gettextbooks.com/author/Doug_Stewart] both as an author and editor.
Now, that being said, I surely won't deny that it is possible. It just seems so very unlikely.
I suppose, since we can't resolve that part of it, since we have no real way of knowing, I suppose the most logical next step is to consider, that if I am correct that it wasn't a mistake/oversight, what would that mean?
I argue that perhaps, there was a little more magic at play in perhaps divination magics?
Thoughts Master Rupert?
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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neutrondecay
Acolyte
United Kingdom
37 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 20:46:22
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
quote:
"Yamun Khahan sought to conquer Khazari as he had Hubadai conquer Semphar." I read that line differently. It seems that you are reading it as "since Hubadai was successful at doing the thing, Pops decided to do this other thing."
You are correct indeed. That is how I was reading it.
quote:
I'm reading it as "Pops was doing this one thing while Junior was off doing this other thing." Or to restate the original line: "Yamun Khahan sought to conquer Khazari while Hubadai was conquering Semphar."
I did put some thought to that, but then I looked up the education and work experience of both Curtis M. Scott (author) and Douglas Stewart (editor), and my impression is that an oversight like that, regarding a past participle such as 'had' seemed really unlikely. Mr. Scott was very well educated at Carnegy, and Mr. Stewart has an astoundingly good record [https://www.gettextbooks.com/author/Doug_Stewart] both as an author and editor.
Now, that being said, I surely won't deny that it is possible. It just seems so very unlikely.
I suppose, since we can't resolve that part of it, since we have no real way of knowing, I suppose the most logical next step is to consider, that if I am correct that it wasn't a mistake/oversight, what would that mean?
I argue that perhaps, there was a little more magic at play in perhaps divination magics?
Thoughts Master Rupert?
Best regards,
I'm not Rupert, but:
1) I, for one, would appreciate it if you would stop addressing us by our forum titles. This is just a website, and no great deed of honour is commemorated by me getting a different title based on how many posts I put on it.
2) As I understand it, what Rupert is saying is that the alternative reading of the text that he proposes is at least as likely as the one you're going with, and that therefore there is no discrepancy that needs to be explained. I'm frankly baffled by your trotting out the author's qualifications and even the identity of his alma mater, as if a sufficiently well-educated author would automatically have intended the reading that you have applied to the text. Bluntly, that assumes facts not in evidence.
3) I agree with Rupert. The natural reading of the text is that the two campaigns proceeded simultaneously, and that Yamun's decision did not depend upon Obadai's success.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 22:10:09
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quote:
I, for one, would appreciate it if you would stop addressing us by our forum titles. This is just a website, and no great deed of honour is commemorated by me getting a different title based on how many posts I put on it.
I think these lofty honorifics add some character and distinction. They make cpthero a memorable personality in a medium where people (or rather, their words) otherwise appear very much the same.
That being said (and with my apologies to Alaundo's floating head), I've never been fond of the titles issued at this site. I realize they're carefully modeled after Ed's Realmslore for Candlekeep's monks - and they've been discussed here many times before - but "Great Reader" remains an entirely dull and uninspired appellation to my mind. I'd personally prefer no title over bad title.
Though perhaps it might indeed be better to limit formal salutations only to those who've appended such titles to their signatures. (And to our friendly blue bubbling beeble giant hamster overlord, of course.) |
[/Ayrik] |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 22:36:47
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| Cpthero2 used our ranks when he started spamming for Rank. I mentioned this to Wooly, but nothing was done. I assume because nothing CAN be done, as long as he is civil. Such is life in a Democracy. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 00:20:58
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Seeker neutrondecay,
First of all, thank you for your reply. It is appreciated, and welcomed!
quote:
1)This is just a website, and no great deed of honour is commemorated by me getting a different title based on how many posts I put on it.
While I can appreciate your perspective as to Candlekeep being "just" a website, in a way that appears to me to be a method by which to minimize its status/value, etc., predicated on my choice of salutation, I politely choose to agree to disagree; however, if you feel that I've mischaracterized your view in any way, let me know. I'm not looking to offend you by that statement, and am happy to retract it if you feel it was incorrect.
I certainly appreciate your point as well regarding the salutations; however, Great Reader Ayrik is correct as to what my intention are (whether he intended to guess my intentions or not): I was seeking to break from the approach everyone else was using in terms of salutations (which frankly in my view has been non-existent absent referencing someone by their username at most). Additionally, I've had a few others enjoy the unique approach I've used thus far in salutations. Speaking only for myself here, it was only to do the following:
- Not bring honour but rather to bring a unique approach that I myself would enjoy using that appears to be meant for use/acknowledgement by the fact that it exists at the site (effectively a working signature if you will)
- Acknowledge the ranking/title only as a salutation, to break from what others had been doing thus far as stated above well as use a naming convention that was established at the site
quote:
2) As I understand it, what Rupert is saying is that the alternative reading of the text that he proposes is at least as likely as the one you're going with, and that therefore there is no discrepancy that needs to be explained.
That very well could be what Master Rupert meant, but I did not take it that way. The idea is that if something happened before something else but that the first occurrence was necessary for the subsequent action to have happened, then that is where Master Rupert and I am not agreeing and why I was asking. The important quote from my initial question was: quote:
Yamun Khahan sought to conquer Khazari as he had Hubadai conquer Semphar.
Obviously Master Rupert made his point known, but I felt it didn't answer the question about the fact that the quote indicates that Yamun Khahan went to conquer Khazari as he had his son conquer Semphar. The point is not meant to be pedantic, but rather to explore the idea of whether or not Yamun Khahan had used magic in other ways to send messages and what not, knowing that his men were very uneasy or even outright scared of it as was indicated in lore.
quote:
I'm frankly baffled by your trotting out the author's qualifications and even the identity of his alma mater, as if a sufficiently well-educated author would automatically have intended the reading that you have applied to the text.
I can appreciate your outlook there for sure. However, I was asking as it seemed possible that if the author intended it to be read that way, that there must have been something else afoot that led to Yamun Khahan knowing of what his son had done, which could be a missed delay in Yamun Khahan's time to attack, use of magic, or a wrong date of arrival for Hubadai.
quote:
Bluntly, that assumes facts not in evidence.
I would certainly agree with that if the believed assumption were in fact evidenced; however, that is not the case. My quote, reiterated was, quote:
...and my impression is that an oversight like that, regarding a past participle such as 'had' seemed really unlikely. Now, that being said, I surely won't deny that it is possible. It just seems so very unlikely.
By reviewing my quoted statements, I feel it is clear that I didn't assume. Rather, I was exploring the possibility.
quote:
3) I agree with Rupert. The natural reading of the text is that the two campaigns proceeded simultaneously, and that Yamun's decision did not depend upon Obadai's success.
I can appreciate that perspective and do your input as well. Thank you!
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 00:33:20
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Regarding the initial question... I agree that the question CAN be read multiple ways. I also don't necessarily think that the Tuigan were absolutely and totally in fear of magic. Were they afraid of certain types of magic? Fireballs, lightning bolts, other evocations, etc... yes... spells that take over your minds... yes... illusions that make you see something different with your eyes ... yes... conjurations that summon up some demon... yes .... spells that change your body shape... yes..
However, I can see them testing out something like a mirror that lets you talk to someone that holds the twin to that mirror. If what it shows is the same, I can see them trusting that kind of magic, and even highly valuing it. Similarly, some abjuration magics probably were acceptable to them if they involved defending against magic. They might not be upset by some basic spells that allow you to translate languages, summon a mount, see in the dark, etc... as well.
Now, that all being said, I read those books almost 30 years ago, so if someone knows something that makes you think the above doesn't fit their demeanor, by all means bring it up. In a world where magic exists though, I see people making cases to allow some magics to make their lives easier even if they don't trust others. I could for instance understand it if some Tuigan even accepted something like a stone with continual light, a ring that can clean clothes, a bucket that can be commanded to produce water, etc.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 00:34:35
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Great Reader Ayrik,
quote:
I think these lofty honorifics add some character and distinction. They make cpthero a memorable personality in a medium where people (or rather, their words) otherwise appear very much the same.
I appreciate your input on this. You are correct in that I've sought to use the titles (as per my response to Seeker neutrondecay) as a way to have fun with the character of Candlekeep, and its many sages within its vaunted halls, working arduously at their labors. It is modeled after the Forgotten Realms after all and I personally love the idea of the honorifics as a means to sort of "live" the idea of being a sage at the Keep.
quote:
That being said (and with my apologies to Alaundo's floating head), I've never been fond of the titles issued at this site. I realize they're carefully modeled after Ed's Realmslore for Candlekeep's monks - and they've been discussed here many times before - but "Great Reader" remains an entirely dull and uninspired appellation to my mind. I'd personally prefer no title over bad title.
I can certainly appreciate the outlook on the titles at the site. I myself am not particularly fond of the title "Great Reader", and would very much be up for an overhaul of the titles, and think it could be quite fun to have a poll on it perhaps!
quote:
Though perhaps it might indeed be better to limit formal salutations only to those who've appended such titles to their signatures. (And to our friendly blue bubbling beeble giant hamster overlord, of course.)
I certainly don't disagree that perhaps an adjustment to the code of conduct would be in order for that. I personally prefer that such formalities occur though as it sets a solid rule without ambiguity for personality, preferences, etc.: it would apply to everyone, consistently. I very much enjoy the idea of using such salutations, and my clear intentions would be to (assuming such a code change occurred) continue by using a generic term to address people to maintain my own unique form of distinction by titling everyone as "Learned Sage", or something else.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 00:38:27
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quote:
(whether he intended to guess my intentions or not)
(It was an observation of effect, not a speculation of intent.) |
[/Ayrik] |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 00:46:00
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Learned Scribe Elfbane,
quote:
Cpthero2 used our ranks when he started spamming for Rank.
I believe if you go back to my first post (or very near my first post) in the forums, I used the salutations from that point on. It's been a while though (at least for me), as I joined Candlekeep in 2013, but I think I started joining in at the forums in 2018, actively.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 00:48:24
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Great Reader Ayrik,
quote:
(It was an observation of effect, not a speculation of intent.)
No sweat. I just was trying to avoid putting words into your mouth, is all I meant by it. No offense intended, and hopefully none taken by you. :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 01:10:31
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Great Reader sleyvas,
quote:
Regarding the initial question... I agree that the question CAN be read multiple ways.
I was thinking so too, but you never know. That's why I wanted to put it out there.
quote:
I also don't necessarily think that the Tuigan were absolutely and totally in fear of magic. Were they afraid of certain types of magic? Fireballs, lightning bolts, other evocations, etc... yes... spells that take over your minds... yes... illusions that make you see something different with your eyes ... yes... conjurations that summon up some demon... yes .... spells that change your body shape... yes..
However, I can see them testing out something like a mirror that lets you talk to someone that holds the twin to that mirror. If what it shows is the same, I can see them trusting that kind of magic, and even highly valuing it. Similarly, some abjuration magics probably were acceptable to them if they involved defending against magic. They might not be upset by some basic spells that allow you to translate languages, summon a mount, see in the dark, etc... as well.
Now, that all being said, I read those books almost 30 years ago, so if someone knows something that makes you think the above doesn't fit their demeanor, by all means bring it up. In a world where magic exists though, I see people making cases to allow some magics to make their lives easier even if they don't trust others. I could for instance understand it if some Tuigan even accepted something like a stone with continual light, a ring that can clean clothes, a bucket that can be commanded to produce water, etc....
All great points for sure, good sir! I completely agree with the battle magic. There were a couple of quotes from lore that make me wonder though, as they are awfully specific about the number of times magic was used.
quote:
Part of their reluctance was due to the khahan's poor relationship with the shamans, though even before the Wars, nomad distrust of magic was common knowledge. (FR12 Horde Campaign, p8)
This of course does not definitively confirm a distrust of only non-battle magic, the fact that the khahan's "poor relationship, though even before the Wars,..." did preceded the wars, I think shows that cultural fear of magic and it makes me wonder about even use of magic items such as mirrors, etc. Thoughts?
quote:
Yamun Khahan was not a commander with the patience for protracted siege. After a few aborted forays against the walls, the khahan overcame his troops' hesitation concerning the use of magic. On Eleasias (August) 2, his shamans created a magical smoke bridge over the walls of Shou-kuan, allowing a small force to enter the city and take the main gate. (FR12 Horde Campaign, p24)
This seemed more significant to me. It demonstrated to me that even though the khahan's situation was of significant concern about a protracted siege, he had to find a way to overcome the troops hesitation, which even in that situation was notable.
quote:
The Red Wizards then entered the melee. Rather than engaging the Rashemen force, they turned their magic on the Lake of Tears and formed a wide dry path across to Ashanath. The rush of water escaping the parted river thrust the witchboats away from the battle, dashing one or two against the ice. Overcoming their dread of magic, the Tuigan retreated across the river. (FR12 Horde Campaign, p52)
This is also important to me because at this time of the war, Yamun Khahan was concerned about going back through the pass, believing that avalanche's and also Thayan magic meant to crush the retreating Horde would be too much a risk. It appears again that the khahan was quite worried about the situation and had to work with great effort the "dread of magic", which in this case, was just "...a wide dry path across to Ashanath."
I'd love to get your feedback on this, as always.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 01:29:19
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I had my son go to the store to get hot dog buns while I cooked hot dogs.
I don't know that he succeeded, but I continued on with cooking hot dogs all the same. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 15:00:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I had my son go to the store to get hot dog buns while I cooked hot dogs.
I don't know that he succeeded, but I continued on with cooking hot dogs all the same.
Was he able to successfully avoid the Horde and get the buns? If so, how were the hot dogs? I have heard that sword-wielding maniacs can really dampen a nice, family dinner. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 15:46:24
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I had my son go to the store to get hot dog buns while I cooked hot dogs.
I don't know that he succeeded, but I continued on with cooking hot dogs all the same.
Was he able to successfully avoid the Horde and get the buns? If so, how were the hot dogs? I have heard that sword-wielding maniacs can really dampen a nice, family dinner.
I later found out that the mission I set for him was indeed successful. He returned with a great bounty of bread...the meal was delicious.
My family doesn't mind my maniacal sword-wielding...as long as the food is good. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 15:58:59
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
quote:
Part of their reluctance was due to the khahan's poor relationship with the shamans, though even before the Wars, nomad distrust of magic was common knowledge. (FR12 Horde Campaign, p8)
This of course does not definitively confirm a distrust of only non-battle magic, the fact that the khahan's "poor relationship, though even before the Wars,..." did preceded the wars, I think shows that cultural fear of magic and it makes me wonder about even use of magic items such as mirrors, etc. Thoughts?
quote:
Yamun Khahan was not a commander with the patience for protracted siege. After a few aborted forays against the walls, the khahan overcame his troops' hesitation concerning the use of magic. On Eleasias (August) 2, his shamans created a magical smoke bridge over the walls of Shou-kuan, allowing a small force to enter the city and take the main gate. (FR12 Horde Campaign, p24)
This seemed more significant to me. It demonstrated to me that even though the khahan's situation was of significant concern about a protracted siege, he had to find a way to overcome the troops hesitation, which even in that situation was notable.
quote:
The Red Wizards then entered the melee. Rather than engaging the Rashemen force, they turned their magic on the Lake of Tears and formed a wide dry path across to Ashanath. The rush of water escaping the parted river thrust the witchboats away from the battle, dashing one or two against the ice. Overcoming their dread of magic, the Tuigan retreated across the river. (FR12 Horde Campaign, p52)
This is also important to me because at this time of the war, Yamun Khahan was concerned about going back through the pass, believing that avalanche's and also Thayan magic meant to crush the retreating Horde would be too much a risk. It appears again that the khahan was quite worried about the situation and had to work with great effort the "dread of magic", which in this case, was just "...a wide dry path across to Ashanath."
I'd love to get your feedback on this, as always.
Best regards,
Snipping out some of the earlier stuff just to get to the meat. In the instances that you mention, we see things that are "dangerous" to most people. For instance, if I were told "yeah, walk over that bridge of smoke", I'd probably want someone to go first. If I were told "hey, walk through that just created path through a lake with threatening water on each side of you that just might come crushing in on you", I'd probably be hesistant. In some ways, this would be no different than worrying about fireballs and lightning bolts. But again, things that appear to be exceptionally safe.... they might be accepted more. Even moreso, things created via a magic item might be more accepted than from a spellcaster, because they could see spellcaster created magic being able to be twisted by the creator... but that created with an item as being just "activated". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 16:14:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I had my son go to the store to get hot dog buns while I cooked hot dogs.
I don't know that he succeeded, but I continued on with cooking hot dogs all the same.
Was he able to successfully avoid the Horde and get the buns? If so, how were the hot dogs? I have heard that sword-wielding maniacs can really dampen a nice, family dinner.
I later found out that the mission I set for him was indeed successful. He returned with a great bounty of bread...the meal was delicious.
My family doesn't mind my maniacal sword-wielding...as long as the food is good.
I've been trying to combine iaijutsu techniques with carving the turkey, but there are so few big turkey dinners during the year that it's hard to practice. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 19:52:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I had my son go to the store to get hot dog buns while I cooked hot dogs.
I don't know that he succeeded, but I continued on with cooking hot dogs all the same.
Was he able to successfully avoid the Horde and get the buns? If so, how were the hot dogs? I have heard that sword-wielding maniacs can really dampen a nice, family dinner.
I later found out that the mission I set for him was indeed successful. He returned with a great bounty of bread...the meal was delicious.
My family doesn't mind my maniacal sword-wielding...as long as the food is good.
I've been trying to combine iaijutsu techniques with carving the turkey, but there are so few big turkey dinners during the year that it's hard to practice.
katana or wakizashi carving? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 20:01:09
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Great Reader sleyvas,
quote:
In the instances that you mention, we see things that are "dangerous" to most people. For instance, if I were told "yeah, walk over that bridge of smoke", I'd probably want someone to go first. If I were told "hey, walk through that just created path through a lake with threatening water on each side of you that just might come crushing in on you", I'd probably be hesistant. In some ways, this would be no different than worrying about fireballs and lightning bolts. But again, things that appear to be exceptionally safe.... they might be accepted more. Even moreso, things created via a magic item might be more accepted than from a spellcaster, because they could see spellcaster created magic being able to be twisted by the creator... but that created with an item as being just "activated".
I agree that the danger is at the center of the analysis. I just wonder how much of it is simply the fact that magic is being utilized at all as it appears to be a culturally non-specific fear, and to your point, how much of the fear/sense of danger is predicated upon the idea the simple outcomes of said magic, i.e. having your face melted off, or whatever.
I find it really interesting that the Thayan's didn't make greater use of that morale based issue. I know it was part of the calculus of Yamun Khahan as he considered the offer from Thay when suing for peace. Granted, it can be random at times with Thay, so who knows what kind of calculus on Thay's end fully went into that decision either, haha.
Part of the reason I am exploring this material is to sate my curiosity, but also, I am working on a treatise regarding Thay, and this particular part of the Horde Campaign takes yet one more look at Thay and their varied military responses, and thus capacity in a conflict.
Ultimately, it is seeming that beyond the broad statements of fear regarding magic with the Horde, there isn't much more, beyond the reasonable arguments made here of course.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 20:14:10
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I think the great Khan decided to withdraw from invasion plans of Thay simply because he couldn't calculate, militarily, just WHAT might happen. He couldn't decide on how many casualties it might cost him to conquer a nation that could raise the dead to fight. But truthfully, that has just been my personal take on the matter.
Historically, Thay seems most united when invaded...it would seem suicide to invade Thay from any neighboring realm. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 04 Nov 2020 20:38:23 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 21:24:46
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Great Reader Darden,
quote:
I think the great Khan decided to withdraw from invasion plans of Thay simply because he couldn't calculate, militarily, just WHAT might happen. He couldn't decide on how many casualties it might cost him to conquer a nation that could raise the dead to fight. But truthfully, that has just been my personal take on the matter.
That is certainly a reasonable assumption for sure, and it seems in history, certain assumptions have to reasonably be made in light of the absence of anything else. I think there are enough peripheral circumstances, such as your reference to magic, to sensibly come to that conclusion for sure.
quote:
Historically, Thay seems most united when invaded...it would seem suicide to invade Thay from any neighboring realm.
You are certainly correct there. Nothing like having your back against the wall to make you consider options you might not normally consider, haha.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 21:49:55
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We should probably consider that the entire Tuigan invasion thing was basically constructed to sell a novel trilogy and a box set. Eventually expanded to include another novel, a few adventures, and new-edition updates.
Effectively just an "event" - a story to move forward into history, making something exciting happen in the Realms - and another experiment during 2E's "Golden Age" of expansion into a larger world. Not only a new place (or rather, a new way of implementing an old place) into the Realms, but also a new thing which imposed some change on an otherwise stagnant setting.
I think the Hordelands was always intended to be something like the Underdark or Al-Qadim or Maztica - it could be a standalone setting, it could be integrated into a larger setting, it could be entirely ignored. It was of course written to be inserted "as-is" into the Realms by default.
Apparently the novels tended to generate far more profit than the game material. So WotC would give them and their authors precedence. While other people worked on the game material, trying to fit everything together. I doubt that too much long-term planning was involved, and I'm guessing that (as usual) they weren't especially obsessed with trying (or even able) to maintain absolute consistency with the novel lore.
So I wouldn't personally assign much weight to any apparent errors or mysteries which appeared in the game lore. They were likely written (or rewritten) almost as a compromise and an afterthought to the events described in the novels. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Nov 2020 22:01:31 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 22:43:09
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Great Reader Ayrik,
quote:
We should probably consider that the entire Tuigan invasion thing was basically constructed to sell a novel trilogy and a box set. Eventually expanded to include another novel, a few adventures, and new-edition updates.
I certainly cannot find fault in your argument there, especially when we all well know the often laughable history of WotC when producing things that as you put it were not necessarily intended exactly, to be merged with Faerun for example.
I just take the approach that things were, so I don't have to account for more permutations of outcomes. At least by trying to hold as many variables as I can constant, I can more easily try to bring some degree of sensibility to it all. Of course, that sort of is like being a dog chasing ones own tail, haha.
quote:
Effectively just an "event" - a story to move forward into history, making something exciting happen in the Realms - and another experiment during 2E's "Golden Age" of expansion into a larger world. Not only a new place (or rather, a new way of implementing an old place) into the Realms, but also a new thing which imposed some change on an otherwise stagnant setting.
While just an "event" (and I do get your point here that you're making), a lot of effort was put into it, generally speaking. FR12 being specifically about the campaign proper, discussion within the Kara-Tur boxed set (not a lot, but a bit) and then the Horde boxed set as well going into pretty good detail about the tribes.
quote:
I think the Hordelands was always intended to be something like the Underdark or Al-Qadim or Maztica - it could be a standalone setting, it could be integrated into a larger setting, it could be entirely ignored. It was of course written to be inserted "as-is" into the Realms by default.
That does seem likely. It's too bad they never did more with it, especially with what the Hordelands are covering up from ancient times.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2020 : 00:04:41
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Imagine if TSR had published the Hordelands/Kara-Tur stuff as companion settings for the Old Grey Box in 1E.
I think WotC really failed on this project because of timing. 2E didn't even provide an "Oriental Adventures" rulebook, a fairly essential reference for any Tuigan campaign.
I have seen the material adapted very successfully into a long-running Krynn campaign. And I once tinkered with the idea of bringing some version of it into a Darksun-based campaign, but I couldn't really think of a way to make it seem like a "plausible" fit without doing a massive overhaul across all of Athas. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Nov 2020 00:06:00 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2020 : 01:10:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Imagine if TSR had published the Hordelands/Kara-Tur stuff as companion settings for the Old Grey Box in 1E.
I think WotC really failed on this project because of timing. 2E didn't even provide an "Oriental Adventures" rulebook, a fairly essential reference for any Tuigan campaign.
I have seen the material adapted very successfully into a long-running Krynn campaign. And I once tinkered with the idea of bringing some version of it into a Darksun-based campaign, but I couldn't really think of a way to make it seem like a "plausible" fit without doing a massive overhaul across all of Athas.
Krynn campaign? 
Do tell  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2020 : 04:24:27
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Great Reader Ayrik,
quote:
Imagine if TSR had published the Hordelands/Kara-Tur stuff as companion settings for the Old Grey Box in 1E.
It certainly would have been light years better. It is a true shame that never happened. It really was treated like the red headed step-child.
quote:
I think WotC really failed on this project because of timing. 2E didn't even provide an "Oriental Adventures" rulebook, a fairly essential reference for any Tuigan campaign.
Yeah, they just didn't think a lot of things through back in the day, and that list of things is miles long, I am sure of it!
quote:
I have seen the material adapted very successfully into a long-running Krynn campaign. And I once tinkered with the idea of bringing some version of it into a Darksun-based campaign, but I couldn't really think of a way to make it seem like a "plausible" fit without doing a massive overhaul across all of Athas.
Overhauling is definitely a problem. I would think now days that the 3.5/PF rules set would work fine with the 3rd edition Oriental Adventures. Is that what you use for that these days?
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2020 : 04:38:20
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I don't play D&D these days, haven't for ages, lol. Some of my old friends do, I sit in or take a part once or maybe twice a year.
It still interests me as a source of fiction, though. At least the older stuff, pre-4E, when it was written to be more suited to my tastes.
Even when DMing, so long ago, I wouldn't "overhaul" a setting without good reason. It takes a lot of time and a lot of effort to put together something excellent. Much easier to take something good from what was already published and ready to go. Ambition is good but my interest was always in playing the game, getting into the story and action - preparing the game was a chore. |
[/Ayrik] |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2020 : 07:20:04
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Great Reader Ayrik,
quote:
I don't play D&D these days, haven't for ages, lol. Some of my old friends do, I sit in or take a part once or maybe twice a year.
Wow, that surprises me! I just figured you did. So, if you don't mind me asking, what do you play?
quote:
It still interests me as a source of fiction, though. At least the older stuff, pre-4E, when it was written to be more suited to my tastes.
I am right there with you on that on that pre-4E stuff. I've not gone beyond 3rd/PF 1.0. I'm happy where I am at with all that.
quote:
- preparing the game was a chore.
Damn, I hear you there. It is a labor of love for sure, and sometimes I think everyone stops and wonder how much return they are getting out of that much labor, haha.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Tuigan War - Unusual Inconsistency of Interest
