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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 02:56:32
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For Lathander to have started the DC, I think he had to already be around -- but not necessarily as a god. It's possible that his "starting" the Dawn Cataclysm was a purely mortal action, even...
What if Lathander was a paladin of Amaunator, and thought ridding the world of all evil was a great idea. So he killed some champion (perhaps even a semi-divine one) of one of the evil powers. That evil power wasn't able to strike back at Lathander directly, so they launched some other action against Amaunator... And from there it all escalated.
In this scenario, Lathander's apotheosis could have been another consequence of the Dawn Cataclysm. Perhaps he managed to snag some divinity from a slain power, or perhaps Amaunator promoted him. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 03:00:48
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
I have to give you some serious credit here: that was deep. I feel like you dreamt it, and woke up thinking: "Ah HA!"
Thankee. 
Even if I dislike every aspect of an idea, sometimes respinning it into some format that I like (or at the least, don't hate) can be fun. And unlike some folks, my creativity isn't best expressed in new ideas -- it's in taking something else, rotating it ninety degrees and adding something else, and making a new creation that way. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 05:44:01
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Master Rupert,
Hey, nothing wrong with that! It isn't always about tackling things the same way. :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
I have to give you some serious credit here: that was deep. I feel like you dreamt it, and woke up thinking: "Ah HA!"
Thankee.
Even if I dislike every aspect of an idea, sometimes respinning it into some format that I like (or at the least, don't hate) can be fun. And unlike some folks, my creativity isn't best expressed in new ideas -- it's in taking something else, rotating it ninety degrees and adding something else, and making a new creation that way.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 15:34:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
For Lathander to have started the DC, I think he had to already be around -- but not necessarily as a god. It's possible that his "starting" the Dawn Cataclysm was a purely mortal action, even...
What if Lathander was a paladin of Amaunator, and thought ridding the world of all evil was a great idea. So he killed some champion (perhaps even a semi-divine one) of one of the evil powers. That evil power wasn't able to strike back at Lathander directly, so they launched some other action against Amaunator... And from there it all escalated.
In this scenario, Lathander's apotheosis could have been another consequence of the Dawn Cataclysm. Perhaps he managed to snag some divinity from a slain power, or perhaps Amaunator promoted him.
It could also be that Amaunatar had previously absorbed several deities to gain his power and somehow they were split back out. For instance, while I like the duality of Lathander and Moander, I'll also note that Lathander and Tyr are also like the two halves that make up Amaunatar, and when Amaunatar disappeared shortly thereafter in theory both of these deities "came into being". Similarly, following the spellplague both Tyr and Lathander "disappeared" again (right after imprisoning Cyric theoretically) and Amaunatar reappeared.... and now Amaunatar is going away and both are reappearing. I submit that there may be some weird ties between a lot of these gods (Moander, Lathander, Tyr, and maybe even a god of chaos like Valigan Thirdborn) that is the origination point of the start of the dawn cataclysm, and that the whole Tyche thing wasn't the start, but rather part of the story. Given the nature of love involved with the dawn cataclysm, I'm also intrigued that Sune is involved with imprisoning Cyric and in theory the actions of the Spellplague. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 15:45:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
It could also be that Amaunatar had previously absorbed several deities to gain his power and somehow they were split back out. For instance, while I like the duality of Lathander and Moander, I'll also note that Lathander and Tyr are also like the two halves that make up Amaunatar, and when Amaunatar disappeared shortly thereafter in theory both of these deities "came into being". Similarly, following the spellplague both Tyr and Lathander "disappeared" again (right after imprisoning Cyric theoretically) and Amaunatar reappeared.... and now Amaunatar is going away and both are reappearing. I submit that there may be some weird ties between a lot of these gods (Moander, Lathander, Tyr, and maybe even a god of chaos like Valigan Thirdborn) that is the origination point of the start of the dawn cataclysm, and that the whole Tyche thing wasn't the start, but rather part of the story. Given the nature of love involved with the dawn cataclysm, I'm also intrigued that Sune is involved with imprisoning Cyric and in theory the actions of the Spellplague.
Some interesting thoughts, here -- but I'm not sure that I'd connect love with with Dawn Cataclysm. The thing with Tyche happened during the DC, 'tis true -- but it seems to have been nothing more than a lovers' quarrel that Moander took advantage of. I've always considered Tyche to have been an innocent bystander of the whole thing -- not involved, but still collateral damage. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 18:46:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
It could also be that Amaunatar had previously absorbed several deities to gain his power and somehow they were split back out. For instance, while I like the duality of Lathander and Moander, I'll also note that Lathander and Tyr are also like the two halves that make up Amaunatar, and when Amaunatar disappeared shortly thereafter in theory both of these deities "came into being". Similarly, following the spellplague both Tyr and Lathander "disappeared" again (right after imprisoning Cyric theoretically) and Amaunatar reappeared.... and now Amaunatar is going away and both are reappearing. I submit that there may be some weird ties between a lot of these gods (Moander, Lathander, Tyr, and maybe even a god of chaos like Valigan Thirdborn) that is the origination point of the start of the dawn cataclysm, and that the whole Tyche thing wasn't the start, but rather part of the story. Given the nature of love involved with the dawn cataclysm, I'm also intrigued that Sune is involved with imprisoning Cyric and in theory the actions of the Spellplague.
Some interesting thoughts, here -- but I'm not sure that I'd connect love with with Dawn Cataclysm. The thing with Tyche happened during the DC, 'tis true -- but it seems to have been nothing more than a lovers' quarrel that Moander took advantage of. I've always considered Tyche to have been an innocent bystander of the whole thing -- not involved, but still collateral damage.
Actually, in THAT instance, I consider Tyche, Selune, and Moander heavily involved, and Sune somewhat involved because it was all about gods courting each other. I actually don't see Lathander heavily involved. The only thing Lathander did was try to court her, Tyche rebuffed him, and then she ASSUMED that the rose was from Lathander. The rose was in fact Moander. She cursed the rose to pick it up. The rose grew into her. Selune blasted her with light and broker her into Tymora and Beshaba.
HMMMMmmmm, but you know what, in looking at the above and walking through it.... she assumed the rose was Lathander. She then cursed it and the flower stem snapped. Could THIS be another "split" that happened. In effect, might Tyche have CREATED Moander from Lathander? She would have thusly created her own demise by wishing ill luck on someone that loved her.
This would, in the logic I've been throwing out after Amaunator split into Lathander and Tyr in an earlier (non-canon) portion of the "Dawn Cataclysm". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 19:45:12
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| From what I recall, the DC was about Lathander trying to banish evil/restructure the pantheon. Like I said, I've always considered the Tyche thing to be just something that happened at the same time -- concurrent, but not actually related to the Dawn Cataclysm at all. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 23:53:39
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If Lathander was trying to reshape reality itself, he would probably need a ritual not unlike Szass Tam's attempted ritual to remake Toril (and possibly the rest of Realmspace) and ascend to divinity.
Such a ritual could have effects across both time and space, causing a ripple across history that produced a collapse of the Weave in an era long before the fall or perhaps even the birth of ancient Netheril.
Preparing such a ritual would also provoke conflicts among the deities both before and after, a series of conflicts that collectively could be the Dawn Cataclysm.
As it was hinted that Lathander was the angel Zariel's deity (in Descent into Avernus), and that Zariel existed during the Dawn War (Trial of Asmodeus reference in Tome of Foes), Lathander could be as old as the Dawn War era (perhaps he was one of the deities born from the battle between Selune and Shar over Realmspace).
My take is that Amaunator was absorbed into Lathander during an encounter that resulted in the interruption of the ritual to remake the divine hierarchy.
Amaunator would later resurface as the dominant personality after Lathander is assailed by forces of chaos during the battle to imprison Cyric, following the death of Mystra (which triggered the Spellplague). The chaos destabilizes Lathander's body, causing him to fall into slumber while Amaunator awakes, heavily influenced by Lathander's innate goodness and bias (explaining why Amaunator is Lawful Good in 4e).
As part of the Second Sundering, Ao splits apart Amaunator and Lathander, restoring the stability of their bodies partly thanks to the stabilizing influence of the reconstructed Tablets of Fate.
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 11 Mar 2020 23:56:53 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 00:59:04
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Learned Scribe Storyteller Hero,
I'm just not seeing why it couldn't be a situation of Amaunator and Lathander being the same deity like Oghma/Curna, or Selune/Lucha?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
If Lathander was trying to reshape reality itself, he would probably need a ritual not unlike Szass Tam's attempted ritual to remake Toril (and possibly the rest of Realmspace) and ascend to divinity.
Such a ritual could have effects across both time and space, causing a ripple across history that produced a collapse of the Weave in an era long before the fall or perhaps even the birth of ancient Netheril.
Preparing such a ritual would also provoke conflicts among the deities both before and after, a series of conflicts that collectively could be the Dawn Cataclysm.
As it was hinted that Lathander was the angel Zariel's deity (in Descent into Avernus), and that Zariel existed during the Dawn War (Trial of Asmodeus reference in Tome of Foes), Lathander could be as old as the Dawn War era (perhaps he was one of the deities born from the battle between Selune and Shar over Realmspace).
My take is that Amaunator was absorbed into Lathander during an encounter that resulted in the interruption of the ritual to remake the divine hierarchy.
Amaunator would later resurface as the dominant personality after Lathander is assailed by forces of chaos during the battle to imprison Cyric, following the death of Mystra (which triggered the Spellplague). The chaos destabilizes Lathander's body, causing him to fall into slumber while Amaunator awakes, heavily influenced by Lathander's innate goodness and bias (explaining why Amaunator is Lawful Good in 4e).
As part of the Second Sundering, Ao splits apart Amaunator and Lathander, restoring the stability of their bodies partly thanks to the stabilizing influence of the reconstructed Tablets of Fate.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 03:02:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
If Lathander was trying to reshape reality itself, he would probably need a ritual not unlike Szass Tam's attempted ritual to remake Toril (and possibly the rest of Realmspace) and ascend to divinity.
We don't know that he was trying to reshape reality. We know it was some sort of anti-evil crusade; it was likely more an effort to get rid of or lessen the power of evil deities.
Also, we don't know if he was a deity at the time, or not. We know he was a deity by the time it was over, but we don't know if he was a deity when it started. I personally think not, but there's just no information there. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 09:57:21
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe Storyteller Hero,
I'm just not seeing why it couldn't be a situation of Amaunator and Lathander being the same deity like Oghma/Curna, or Selune/Lucha?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
If Lathander was trying to reshape reality itself, he would probably need a ritual not unlike Szass Tam's attempted ritual to remake Toril (and possibly the rest of Realmspace) and ascend to divinity.
Such a ritual could have effects across both time and space, causing a ripple across history that produced a collapse of the Weave in an era long before the fall or perhaps even the birth of ancient Netheril.
Preparing such a ritual would also provoke conflicts among the deities both before and after, a series of conflicts that collectively could be the Dawn Cataclysm.
As it was hinted that Lathander was the angel Zariel's deity (in Descent into Avernus), and that Zariel existed during the Dawn War (Trial of Asmodeus reference in Tome of Foes), Lathander could be as old as the Dawn War era (perhaps he was one of the deities born from the battle between Selune and Shar over Realmspace).
My take is that Amaunator was absorbed into Lathander during an encounter that resulted in the interruption of the ritual to remake the divine hierarchy.
Amaunator would later resurface as the dominant personality after Lathander is assailed by forces of chaos during the battle to imprison Cyric, following the death of Mystra (which triggered the Spellplague). The chaos destabilizes Lathander's body, causing him to fall into slumber while Amaunator awakes, heavily influenced by Lathander's innate goodness and bias (explaining why Amaunator is Lawful Good in 4e).
As part of the Second Sundering, Ao splits apart Amaunator and Lathander, restoring the stability of their bodies partly thanks to the stabilizing influence of the reconstructed Tablets of Fate.
As Amaunator originally maintains a divine realm in Mechanus (Faiths & Avatars) while Lathander's earliest reported location is in Eronia (Elysium), and the tenets of their faith as well as their approaches to morality are so different, I think it would make better sense to have them be separate deities, at least from the time frame of the Dawn Cataclysm.
Asmodeus is an example of how a deity can be absorbed and interfere from within, with how he absorbed Azuth and had to let go of Azuth.
There's also the possibility of one being a divergent aspect of the other, like Bahamut and Marduk, who maintain separate churches and divine realms (Planescape - On Hallowed Ground, Planes of Law), but are mystically connected due to Marduk being split off from Bahamut.
Having a mutable, conceptual body that splits into separate deities and results in the deities being different deities from each other also has examples from Tymora/Beshaba, and Shar/Selune.
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 12 Mar 2020 10:09:54 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 12:41:06
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe Storyteller Hero,
I'm just not seeing why it couldn't be a situation of Amaunator and Lathander being the same deity like Oghma/Curna, or Selune/Lucha?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
If Lathander was trying to reshape reality itself, he would probably need a ritual not unlike Szass Tam's attempted ritual to remake Toril (and possibly the rest of Realmspace) and ascend to divinity.
Such a ritual could have effects across both time and space, causing a ripple across history that produced a collapse of the Weave in an era long before the fall or perhaps even the birth of ancient Netheril.
Preparing such a ritual would also provoke conflicts among the deities both before and after, a series of conflicts that collectively could be the Dawn Cataclysm.
As it was hinted that Lathander was the angel Zariel's deity (in Descent into Avernus), and that Zariel existed during the Dawn War (Trial of Asmodeus reference in Tome of Foes), Lathander could be as old as the Dawn War era (perhaps he was one of the deities born from the battle between Selune and Shar over Realmspace).
My take is that Amaunator was absorbed into Lathander during an encounter that resulted in the interruption of the ritual to remake the divine hierarchy.
Amaunator would later resurface as the dominant personality after Lathander is assailed by forces of chaos during the battle to imprison Cyric, following the death of Mystra (which triggered the Spellplague). The chaos destabilizes Lathander's body, causing him to fall into slumber while Amaunator awakes, heavily influenced by Lathander's innate goodness and bias (explaining why Amaunator is Lawful Good in 4e).
As part of the Second Sundering, Ao splits apart Amaunator and Lathander, restoring the stability of their bodies partly thanks to the stabilizing influence of the reconstructed Tablets of Fate.
Just to point out, these two deities are vastly different in outlook. One is relatively stodgy and rules oriented. He's also a deity who holds the portfolios common to Tyr. The other is more into personal liberties, seems focused on pursuing things that make you happy, etc... While one may be "created" by merging with something else (for instance, the concept I show of combining the entities of Tyr and Lahtander), I can't see them being the exact same entity. In effect, SOMETHING (not sure what), but SOMETHING changes. Maybe that something is that the god is schizophrenic (which I'm favored of with certain gods, but not THIS one to tell the truth).
I'll also point out that Re/Ra and Amaunator are AMAZINGLY similar. Just to play with names for a second too... Amaunator… Amon-Ra-Tyr. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 13:36:19
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I don't mind Ao being there, and it is hard to say what he does and does not care about (he cared enough to cause the ToT and Second Sundering, after all). He seems to care when the deities step out of line (YMMV, of course, as he doesn't intervene in all events--he didn't with the Spellplague, after all, so again, it's hard to know what he does and does not care about, but, being the overgod, I don't think he is entirely indifferent to deific actions. Mortals, sure, but not deities).
Just to throw out there.... or he knew enough to "watch the tides rolling" to know that the spellplague and sundering were coming, and he took credit for "making them happen". While I picture him as very powerful, I wonder at his true power level and even his ability to stand against a combined patheon working against him. Gods lie. Maybe overgods lie more. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 19:42:05
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I don't mind Ao being there, and it is hard to say what he does and does not care about (he cared enough to cause the ToT and Second Sundering, after all). He seems to care when the deities step out of line (YMMV, of course, as he doesn't intervene in all events--he didn't with the Spellplague, after all, so again, it's hard to know what he does and does not care about, but, being the overgod, I don't think he is entirely indifferent to deific actions. Mortals, sure, but not deities).
Just to throw out there.... or he knew enough to "watch the tides rolling" to know that the spellplague and sundering were coming, and he took credit for "making them happen". While I picture him as very powerful, I wonder at his true power level and even his ability to stand against a combined patheon working against him. Gods lie. Maybe overgods lie more.
Considering that he simultaneously stripped all the deities of their power, I think it's clear that he can stand against them. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 21:08:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I don't mind Ao being there, and it is hard to say what he does and does not care about (he cared enough to cause the ToT and Second Sundering, after all). He seems to care when the deities step out of line (YMMV, of course, as he doesn't intervene in all events--he didn't with the Spellplague, after all, so again, it's hard to know what he does and does not care about, but, being the overgod, I don't think he is entirely indifferent to deific actions. Mortals, sure, but not deities).
Just to throw out there.... or he knew enough to "watch the tides rolling" to know that the spellplague and sundering were coming, and he took credit for "making them happen". While I picture him as very powerful, I wonder at his true power level and even his ability to stand against a combined patheon working against him. Gods lie. Maybe overgods lie more.
Considering that he simultaneously stripped all the deities of their power, I think it's clear that he can stand against them.
Possibly in a pre-prepared assault in which he may have carefully prepared his defenses and attacks, and they were unsuspecting that it was anything other than a normal Tuesday. If the tables were turned and it was a time when he wasn't prepared and the gods had been plotting to team up behind his back, it might be a different story. This is one of the things that I used to show, things where a mage who is very prepared can be exceptionally effective in a short period of time, almost godlike in power. But the same mage, caught unawares can be felled quickly.
I'm not calling Ao dumb mind you. I think he's a scheming mastermind. But, I just question the true depth of his power and whether he might not be taking advantage of certain circumstances possibly occurring that make things possible. For instance, maybe the tablets of fate were a check on HIS own power, and it was only after they were stolen that the gods became more susceptible to being cast out. Similarly, maybe he knew the two worlds would imminently be merging sometime soon. Maybe he knew they would be separating around the time of the sundering. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 21:18:57
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I dunno. He can strip any deity of their power in an instant. He can elevate mortals to divinity or kick them out entirely, on a whim. And as Ed has recently stated, he can even supersede a deity's control of their own portfolio.
I don't see anything that indicates that Ao is not so far beyond deities that they'd barely annoy him if they tried anything. There's evidence for him being way more powerful than they, and nothing even hinting they can contest with him in any way. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 01:13:00
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Master Rupert,
I have to concur here as well. I like the ideas of Great Reader sleyvas, but in the end, Ao does appear to be seemingly all powerful as it pertains to the deities of the Realms.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I dunno. He can strip any deity of their power in an instant. He can elevate mortals to divinity or kick them out entirely, on a whim. And as Ed has recently stated, he can even supersede a deity's control of their own portfolio.
I don't see anything that indicates that Ao is not so far beyond deities that they'd barely annoy him if they tried anything. There's evidence for him being way more powerful than they, and nothing even hinting they can contest with him in any way.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 01:15:40
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Master Rupert,
I have to concur here as well. I like the ideas of Great Reader sleyvas, but in the end, Ao does appear to be seemingly all powerful as it pertains to the deities of the Realms.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I dunno. He can strip any deity of their power in an instant. He can elevate mortals to divinity or kick them out entirely, on a whim. And as Ed has recently stated, he can even supersede a deity's control of their own portfolio.
I don't see anything that indicates that Ao is not so far beyond deities that they'd barely annoy him if they tried anything. There's evidence for him being way more powerful than they, and nothing even hinting they can contest with him in any way.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2020 : 23:22:32
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| Do we know if he was Lathander or Amaunator during the Cataclysm? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2020 : 23:32:37
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| He was Lathander, as far as I know. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 00:38:43
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Do we know if he was Lathander or Amaunator during the Cataclysm?
That's one of the tricky things.
We know Amaunator was active during the time of Netheril; he was worshipped there and lost nearly all of his worshippers when Netheril fell.
We don't have any references to Lathander that I'm aware of earlier than -137 DR -- more than 200 years after the fall of Netheril.
Yet, as I pointed out, Netherese history doesn't record the Weave going down under Karsus's big mistake. So if the Weave went down during Mystryl's watch, then it had to have been before Netheril was all about wizardry.
And since Amaunator was worshipped in Netheril, then he was likely around for a while before then.
But we know Lathander was involved in the whole mess with the Dawn Cataclysm.
So if the DC was before Netheril and Amaunator was around during Netheril, then there's two possibilities (one of which just occurred to me):
1) Lathander wasn't yet a deity when he set things in motion. Maybe he was a paladin of Amaunator, maybe he was a Chosen or proxy of Amaunator. In this scenario, his apotheosis happens sometime after the fall of Netheril (likely soon after, for him to have paladins around, slaying vampires, 200 years later).
2) Lathander, despite being described as young, actually predates Amaunator. He was a power before Netheril, fell from power because of and perhaps during the DC, but then somehow managed to come back. Maybe he was subsumed by Amaunator, but broke loose when Netheril fell.
I'll grant there's some assumptions being made, here, the most notable of which is that the failure of magic during the DC would have been noticed in the Realms.
But I think it all hangs together... And to me, the idea that Lathander was some sort of servant/follower of Amaunator really works -- especially if he was a proxy. That gives him the power to start something -- maybe by killing a proxy of another power -- and puts him in the perfect position to inherit some of Amaunator's power when that deity fell. Lathander's oft-referenced youthful demeanor could be because he was born mortal and is in many ways still new to the whole god gig.
Of course, since Lathander covers rebirth, there is a certain elegance to the idea that he fell before the time of Netheril and was then reborn after it fell. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 05:24:53
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| Did anything ever come of Lathander's "Deliverance" scheme? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 10:23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Did anything ever come of Lathander's "Deliverance" scheme?
We really don't know. Details on the Dawn Cataclysm have been frustratingly sparse.
We know of a couple of divine deaths, and that's about it -- and even there, the only one we have actual info on appears to be more collateral damage than anything else.
And that is literally almost everything we know: Lathander caused it, and Murdane and Tyche died. Aside from that, we have no solid information at all. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 22:15:38
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Did anything ever come of Lathander's "Deliverance" scheme?
Well, as far as I know, the Deliverance was the prophecy (believed heretical by many in the church), when Lathander would be replaced/become Amaunataur, which is what happened in 4e. I remember the Deliverance being mentioned in The Twilight Wars, and those books were written during the transition to 4e. So, you could say the Deliverance scheme came to pass. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 18:51:31
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Learned Scribe keftiu,
Are you talking about the prophecy or the banjo players?
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2021 : 14:09:24
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My apologies for the thread necromancy, but I stumbled on this post by afroakuma regarding his interpretation of the Dawn Cataclysm on gitp's planar questions thread, and thought it might be an interesting point of discussion.
By afroakuma:
• The Dawn Cataclysm was a period of Faerűnian history that took place over a few hundred years, beginning around, loosely, -350 DR.
• The root causes of the Dawn Cataclysm are numerous, but the most predominant are three:
• The ascension of the Dark Three through the machinations of the Netherese deity Jergal.
• The fall of Netheril through the folly of Karsus.
• The emergence of Lathander, called Morninglord, a power of renewal.
• Whether Lathander emerged from the death of Amaunator, the Netherese sun god, or was present before in a different pantheon (the Talfiric, perhaps) and coexisted, is ultimately difficult to say. One prominent theory held that Lathander, Amaunator, and Jergal represented the dawn, the midday, and the dusk, and that only two of the three could hold sway at any one time. If this is true, then the emergence of Lathander at the same time that Amaunator fell and Jergal voluntarily diminished himself may have disrupted the cycle and the balance of three.
• The Dark Three were active during the time of Netheril, and likely began to forge their cults and churches in the strife and death of the fall. This surge in prominence of three new faces of evil was a cause for alarm among the powers of Good, as the Dark Three lacked for subtlety, hungering to set upon the world as its new rulers.
• Lathander viewed the fractious pantheons of Faerűn as stagnant and sedentary, unable to respond to the evils of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul. He urged his followers to spread forth from their lands, making contact with the followers of deities from other pantheons. Lathander attempted to convince these gods that they needed to change, or they would fall under others who were more adaptable. He exhorted them to follow his example - and to follow him, as the leader of a united pantheon of goodly and rational deities against the upjumped mortals now threatening to bring the world to heel.
• Some deities were eager to join him, concerned about the strength of evil. Others were resistant to uniting with other pantheons, concerned that their portfolios would be at risk. Some were actively encouraged by the concept of predating on deities from other pantheons in order to seize more power for themselves.
• These divisions happened not between individual pantheons, but within them. The god Auppenser was supreme among the Jhaamdathan pantheon, and would not hear of kneeling to the Morninglord, concerned as he was about protecting the psions of his land. Factionalism among the gods caused division in the Jhaamdathan pantheon, resulting in a coup in Jhaamdath that installed a vicious warmonger in place of the old rulers.
• With the gods of war eagerly unleashed upon one another, the gods of storm and fury came forth to bring havoc. Lathander's crusade had transgressed the traditional boundaries of the pantheons, and the fragile peace shattered as gods of all stripes struggled to cement their roles in the free-for-all.
• When the dust cleared, it became evident that whatever Lathander's actual goals, he had missed the forest for the trees - the most ancient evil of Toril, Shar, had undermined his efforts from the very beginning, using the kinds of foe he would immediately perceive as the greatest threat (new gods, young and active, like himself) as a diversion while she helped strengthen other forces of darkness. A dreadful ocean goddess, Umberlee, was summoned by elves into the Sea of Fallen Stars, where she seized and drowned the last defender of Jhaamdath, the reason goddess Murdane, capturing the inland sea within her portfolio and establishing herself as the predominant deity of all the waters. The foul demiurge Moander deceived and corrupted Tyche, goddess of fate, forcing Shar's rival Selűne to salvage a lesser goddess of good fortune from the putrefying essence of her friend while unleashing a cruel goddess of misfortune upon the Realms. The battles of gods with similar portfolios had greatly empowered forces such as destruction and war, seating Tempus and Talos as greater gods with wider sway over the Realms.
• The ultimate outcome of the Dawn Cataclysm was a united Faerűnian pantheon, with many gods much greater in scope than they had been previously. Lathander obviously did not get to renew the world entire without the stain of darkness, nor did he become leader of the united pantheon or otherwise achieve his aims. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2021 : 16:56:50
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| Given that we know the Dawn Cataclysm happened when Mystryl was around, I'm inclined to think it predated Netheril. I think that any kind of major conflict between the gods would have had visible repercussions among the mortal world -- but nothing like this is recorded, aside from the much later schism in Tyche's church. It's a given that the info we have on Netheril is problematic, but it still covers a good chunk of time without any reference to divine upheaval. Thus, the DC must have been before that. |
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Wendolyn
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2021 : 19:25:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Given that we know the Dawn Cataclysm happened when Mystryl was around, I'm inclined to think it predated Netheril. I think that any kind of major conflict between the gods would have had visible repercussions among the mortal world -- but nothing like this is recorded, aside from the much later schism in Tyche's church. It's a given that the info we have on Netheril is problematic, but it still covers a good chunk of time without any reference to divine upheaval. Thus, the DC must have been before that.
Well said Wooly, but just to push back slightly, are we sure that nothing like this is recorded? Granted I mostly know about the Vilhon React, but we have major events happening there that are consistent with this interpretation. One god, Auppenser, is reduced to a vestige. Another, Valigan Thirdborn, is slain. Tyr himself enters the world at the head of 200 planetars, and forms an alliance with Ilmater. Bane may very well have manifested in the Reach at that time as detailed in Swords of the Iron Legion. And the bloody Sixth Seros War kicks off under the Sea of Fallen Stars where according to this theory Umberlee is appearing. Just saying that, the period of a couple hundred years following -350 DR is definitely the most eventful in the Vilhon Reach, deity wise (before the Era of Upheaval that is, where Lathander and Umberee again play big roles in the area) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2021 : 19:59:49
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We know it happened during the time of Mystryl. That means it couldn't have happened at any point after -339 DR.
And the Netheril stuff covers that timeframe, at least for Netheril. Sure, they'd not be privy to everything happening on Toril -- but it's going to be a hard sell to convince me that they'd be entirely unaffected and oblivious to a major divine upheaval.
Nothing else mentions a divine upheaval during this time, either. The only effects of the DC that we know of that can be linked to the DC are the death of Murdane and the sundering of Tyche -- and neither of those events is dated, anywhere.
Part of why I maintain that the DC must have predated Netheril is because we don't have much info, going that far back. There's a lot more potential for stuff to happen, then, with records of it either not existing (because no one who saw it had a writing system) or having been lost since then. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Apr 2021 20:18:27 |
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Wendolyn
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2021 : 20:40:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We know it happened during the time of Mystryl. That means it couldn't have happened at any point after -339 DR.
And the Netheril stuff covers that timeframe, at least for Netheril. Sure, they'd not be privy to everything happening on Toril -- but it's going to be a hard sell to convince me that they'd be entirely unaffected and oblivious to a major divine upheaval.
Nothing else mentions a divine upheaval during this time, either. The only effects of the DC that we know of that can be linked to the DC are the death of Murdane and the sundering of Tyche -- and neither of those events is dated, anywhere.
Part of why I maintain that the DC must have predated Netheril is because we don't have much info, going that far back. There's a lot more potential for stuff to happen, then, with records of it either not existing (because no one who saw it had a writing system) or having been lost since then.
You know much more about this than I do Wooly! Do you mind sharing how we know it happened when Mystryl was around? Is it the brief twitter quote from Ed discussed earlier in this thread? That's an interesting bit of lore, but on the other hand, I think F&A flatly says the Dawn Cataclysm was "known to have occurred after the fall of Netheril." And GHoTR speculates on multiple possibles times also post-Netheril. Possibly it is both ways? I.e. the DC begins around -350 DR, while Mystryl is around, but extends after Netheril's destruction. And this would explain why, as you mention, we don't see the DC in any of Netheril's records -- it only begins at the very end of their empire. |
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New Theory on Dawn Cataclysm
