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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 00:49:09
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From Ed's Tweet, we know that the Weave went down during the Dawn Cataclysm, and that was why she had Chosen.
We don't have any records at all -- anywhere, not just Netheril -- of magic failing before Karsus.
Since Netheril crashed down because the Weave went offline and magic failed, then the same thing couldn't have happened at any time after the first enclave was tossed skyward. Ioulaum's enclave was raised something like 2700 years before Netheril fell, and there was an utter buttload of them aloft by -339 DR.
That pushes back the timeline for the Dawn Cataclysm, considerably. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 02:26:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Given that we know the Dawn Cataclysm happened when Mystryl was around, ... <snip>
Source?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wendolyn
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 02:29:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
From Ed's Tweet, we know that the Weave went down during the Dawn Cataclysm, and that was why she had Chosen.
We don't have any records at all -- anywhere, not just Netheril -- of magic failing before Karsus.
Since Netheril crashed down because the Weave went offline and magic failed, then the same thing couldn't have happened at any time after the first enclave was tossed skyward. Ioulaum's enclave was raised something like 2700 years before Netheril fell, and there was an utter buttload of them aloft by -339 DR.
That pushes back the timeline for the Dawn Cataclysm, considerably.
Yeah, everything you said makes perfect sense, given Ed's tweet. My problem is with the tweet itself, because it is inconsistent with Faiths & Avatars, where in no uncertain terms it says that the Dawn Cataclysm occurred after the fall of Netheril (it is right there on page 23). So we're in the somewhat familiar -- and exciting -- situation of having contradictory lore. (Ed's tweet also contradicts the speculations in the GHotR, but they are just speculations)
But there is something I've been meaning to talk to you about for a while Wooly. It is perhaps a bit "meta" and abstract, about how we interpret the historical canon available to us. It is something I am unsure of myself, and I think you have a consistent viewpoint on it. It is how we make sense of "blank periods" in the lore we have. Consider Jhaamdath. We know it is founded in -5800. There is some events that take us up to -5000. And then we don't hear anything about the empire until past -2000. That is three thousand years. Could crazy things have happened in there? Was there an enormous civil war? Did the Jhaamdath pantheon get altered, with an old god dying and being replaced by a new god? Was there a huge, wild, varied history full of Realms-shaking events, including a breakdown of the weave (or some psionic analogue) we just don't know about? Or is it that for 3,000 years, nothing of note occurred? There could have been all kinds of minor things. Surely many bladelords lived and died, some minor squabbles, etc.
I feel you have a more or less consistent view on the subject, a view I will tentatively call the Wooly Principle which is that "the absence of lore in a time period is evidence that nothing majorly important happened in that time period." So using the Wooly Principle, the gap of information about Jhaamdath between -5000 DR and -2000 DR is evidence that nothing major happened. I think this is a reasonable principle. Probably you can state it better. Maybe it's more like "the absence of lore in a time period, for which there were great scribes such as Netheril, is evidence that nothing major happened in that time period." Anyways I would be glad to hear your views on this  |
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Wendolyn
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 02:32:41
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Given that we know the Dawn Cataclysm happened when Mystryl was around, ... <snip>
Source?
-- George Krashos
I think the source is a brief tweet from Ed, described earlier in this thread (though I could be wrong) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 03:18:59
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Given that we know the Dawn Cataclysm happened when Mystryl was around, ... <snip>
Source?
-- George Krashos
Ed himself, via Twitter, on March 5 of last year. The exchange is on the third page of this discussion. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 04:04:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendolyn
Yeah, everything you said makes perfect sense, given Ed's tweet. My problem is with the tweet itself, because it is inconsistent with Faiths & Avatars, where in no uncertain terms it says that the Dawn Cataclysm occurred after the fall of Netheril (it is right there on page 23). So we're in the somewhat familiar -- and exciting -- situation of having contradictory lore. (Ed's tweet also contradicts the speculations in the GHotR, but they are just speculations)
It's been previously suggested in our own halls that the Dawn Cataclysm happened outside of time... I do not like this explanation, simply because the idea of something happening without the passage of time doesn't work for me.
Another suggestion I've seen is that the Dawn Cataclysm wasn't a singular brief event -- it may have been something that started and then lasted for a long time, with flareups of activity happening at various points. I'm inclined to think that this may be the only real way to address all the inconsistencies. (For me, a major issue is the fact that we know Tyche split during the DC, and we know when her church schismed -- and it was long after the Fall of Netheril)
...Though it did occur to me that perhaps time itself went awry for some reason, during the Dawn Cataclysm, and that it was distorted in such a way that events starting at one point didn't manifest until some later (or even earlier!) point. We know that Mystryl was the keeper of the timestream, and if the Weave went down at some point, maybe time wonked out, as well...
And maybe the Mystryl that was around for the Fall of Netheril wasn't the original Mystryl. Maybe the original died during the DC, and as Midnight did, her successor took her predecessor's name as her own.
quote:
Originally posted by Wendolyn
But there is something I've been meaning to talk to you about for a while Wooly. It is perhaps a bit "meta" and abstract, about how we interpret the historical canon available to us. It is something I am unsure of myself, and I think you have a consistent viewpoint on it. It is how we make sense of "blank periods" in the lore we have. Consider Jhaamdath. We know it is founded in -5800. There is some events that take us up to -5000. And then we don't hear anything about the empire until past -2000. That is three thousand years. Could crazy things have happened in there? Was there an enormous civil war? Did the Jhaamdath pantheon get altered, with an old god dying and being replaced by a new god? Was there a huge, wild, varied history full of Realms-shaking events, including a breakdown of the weave (or some psionic analogue) we just don't know about? Or is it that for 3,000 years, nothing of note occurred? There could have been all kinds of minor things. Surely many bladelords lived and died, some minor squabbles, etc.
I feel you have a more or less consistent view on the subject, a view I will tentatively call the Wooly Principle which is that "the absence of lore in a time period is evidence that nothing majorly important happened in that time period." So using the Wooly Principle, the gap of information about Jhaamdath between -5000 DR and -2000 DR is evidence that nothing major happened. I think this is a reasonable principle. Probably you can state it better. Maybe it's more like "the absence of lore in a time period, for which there were great scribes such as Netheril, is evidence that nothing major happened in that time period." Anyways I would be glad to hear your views on this
I don't know that I'd call it the Wooly Principle, but I think I'd say that if nothing significant is mentioned for a particular timeframe, it is reasonable to assume nothing significant happened during that timeframe. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Apr 2021 04:09:31 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 04:16:02
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| You know, the real heck of all of this is that unless I'm mistaken, the first mention of the Dawn Cataclysm was just some throwaway line somewhere, not meant to mean anything at all... And yet, it remains a thing that Realms fans (myself very much included) keep coming back to, time and time again. |
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Wendolyn
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 04:29:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's been previously suggested in our own halls that the Dawn Cataclysm happened outside of time... I do not like this explanation, simply because the idea of something happening without the passage of time doesn't work for me.
Another suggestion I've seen is that the Dawn Cataclysm wasn't a singular brief event -- it may have been something that started and then lasted for a long time, with flareups of activity happening at various points. I'm inclined to think that this may be the only real way to address all the inconsistencies.
I also don't like the idea of the Dawn Cataclysm occurring "outside of time." I'm not sure what to do with such a notion, or how it relates to the issues at hand, like trying to figure out when Murdane was killed, etc. Just feels like a vague nonstarter to me.
As to the DC being something that started and lasted for a long time, with periodic flareups, I love that idea. It allows for the collapses of Netheril and Jhaamdath to naturally lead to an enormous flareup of a conflict that may have already been long-simmering.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know that I'd call it the Wooly Principle, but I think I'd say that if nothing significant is mentioned for a particular timeframe, it is reasonable to assume nothing significant happened during that timeframe.
Yeah that is a very reasonable approach, and should probably be the default way to interpret past lore. Especially for areas that are pretty well covered with large amounts of lore. The absence of, say, any lore on what happened in Waterdeep in the year 1289 should be taken as strong evidence that nothing particularly noteworthy happened in Waterdeep that year. I think for areas in the distant past, though, or areas for which little is known, the absence of evidence I think is far less suggestive that nothing happened. In the case of Jhaamdath, for example, I am less sure that just because nothing is written about what happened between -5000 and -2000 DR that nothing of note did, in fact, happen. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 16:52:49
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| So, the best way I can think of to deal with the phrase that the Dawn Cataclysm occurred "outside of time" is that some portion of IT occurred, then someone went BACK in time and did something to make whatever IT was actually not happen, creating something of a paradox, but not enough of a paradox to destroy time. Therefore, the instance of things that occurred and was "overwritten" by someone going back in time occurred "outside of time". The worry is that someone begins to peer too closely into the dawn cataclysm to figure out what really occurred, which then threatens to bring the paradox to light, and then said person (whether they be good or evil) has to either be distracted, coerced into not digging further, or finally be eliminated "for the greater good". That after all may be why Murdane.... the goddess of Reason... may have had to have been eliminated, because she came too close to the truth..... so Ao had her whacked by Umberlee and told Helm he had to stand by and let it happen. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 11 Apr 2021 16:55:20 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 12:00:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
From Ed's Tweet, we know that the Weave went down during the Dawn Cataclysm, and that was why she had Chosen.
We don't have any records at all -- anywhere, not just Netheril -- of magic failing before Karsus.
Since Netheril crashed down because the Weave went offline and magic failed, then the same thing couldn't have happened at any time after the first enclave was tossed skyward. Ioulaum's enclave was raised something like 2700 years before Netheril fell, and there was an utter buttload of them aloft by -339 DR.
That pushes back the timeline for the Dawn Cataclysm, considerably.
I love Ed to death but his tweet makes no sense.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 12 Apr 2021 12:02:43 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 12:03:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
From Ed's Tweet, we know that the Weave went down during the Dawn Cataclysm, and that was why she had Chosen.
We don't have any records at all -- anywhere, not just Netheril -- of magic failing before Karsus.
Since Netheril crashed down because the Weave went offline and magic failed, then the same thing couldn't have happened at any time after the first enclave was tossed skyward. Ioulaum's enclave was raised something like 2700 years before Netheril fell, and there was an utter buttload of them aloft by -339 DR.
That pushes back the timeline for the Dawn Cataclysm, considerably.
Are you confusing the Dawn Cataclysm with Karsus' Folly?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 18:19:34
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
From Ed's Tweet, we know that the Weave went down during the Dawn Cataclysm, and that was why she had Chosen.
We don't have any records at all -- anywhere, not just Netheril -- of magic failing before Karsus.
Since Netheril crashed down because the Weave went offline and magic failed, then the same thing couldn't have happened at any time after the first enclave was tossed skyward. Ioulaum's enclave was raised something like 2700 years before Netheril fell, and there was an utter buttload of them aloft by -339 DR.
That pushes back the timeline for the Dawn Cataclysm, considerably.
Are you confusing the Dawn Cataclysm with Karsus' Folly?
-- George Krashos
Not at all.
Again, the words of Ed:
@Greysil_Tassyr
If Mystra's Chosen are there to stabilize the Weave, and Mystryl had Chosen... Does that mean that Karsus's Ultimate Mistake wasn't the first time the Weave went down?
@TheEdVerse
Yes. ;}
#Realmslore
@Greysil_Tassyr
Oh ye wascally bearded wabbit, you know we want to know more!
@TheEdVerse
Let me give thee two words: Dawn Cataclysm.
#Realmslore
----
So Mystryl had Chosen in case the Weave went down, and this was because the Weave went down during the Dawn Cataclysm. Since Mystryl wasn't around after -339, the Dawn Cataclysm -- and the associated collapse of the Weave -- had to have happened before then.
We know the Weave went down in -339, but this earlier instance is not listed in Netheril's histories, so the DC had to happen before Netheril was keeping records (or at the very latest, before the first enclave went skyward).
The two biggest issues with this earlier guesstimate are Lathander and Tyche. We know Lathander kicked the whole thing off, but he's also described as being a young power. To square this, I theorize that Lathander has existed for a long time, but that he was first a mortal or proxy and that his apotheosis was more recent (likely a paladin of Amaunator that was made a proxy). If he was a proxy of Amaunator, it ties him to that deity, gives him the power to be a problem, but still allows him to be a young deity.
I'm inclined to think that mortal/proxy Lathander didn't start with trying to reshape everything; I think he prolly had a long-standing enmity with an evil power (or the proxy of one) and finally managed to slay them. This cause tension and conflict among the powers, whilst Lathander, thinking he'd done a good thing, decides to scale up his efforts.
Making him a proxy also gives Lathander a better excuse for interacting with Tyche. A mortal likely wouldn't interact that much with a greater power, but a proxy representing another greater power? That's another story.
The other main issue with the DC happening so early is that we know when the Church of Tyche split into the churches of Tymora and Beshaba. That's a heck of a long time for these two rival deities to maintain a unified church. It's because of this that I have (reluctantly!) started leaning towards the DC being an event that took place over centuries, even millennia -- or that time itself somehow went awry, widely separating the cause (Tyche splitting) from the effect (the church splitting) happening in the mortal world. I favor the long DC over the temporal wonkiness approach, if only because it's easier to wrap the mind around.
Alternatively, the myth about Tyche's split is just a myth, and having her split during the DC is a mistaken mortal belief, perhaps because of some concurrent event (like the Fall of Myth Drannor) that is also believed to be connected to the Dawn Cataclysm.
(Another alternative for squaring away Lathander's involvement is that the modern Lathander wasn't involved at all, but contains or is partially made up of the entity that was involved. Lathander could have absorbed that earlier entity, or perhaps that earlier entity merged with another forming the one now known as Lathander. So this theoretical entity {whom I will dub "Earlias"} could have been a deity that kicked off everything, and then later, his merger with or absorption into Lathander made everyone transfer the blame to the Morninglord, since -- technically -- it was a part of him that was involved. I can't say I'm particularly keen on this idea, though, compared to a semidivine Lathander starting everything) |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Apr 2021 19:49:29 |
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Wendolyn
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 20:12:10
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I love Ed to death but his tweet makes no sense.
-- George Krashos
Yeah I agree George, it is an unfortunate tweet. I don't see how it can be reconciled with existing sourcebook lore. |
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Wendolyn
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 20:17:20
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, the best way I can think of to deal with the phrase that the Dawn Cataclysm occurred "outside of time" is that some portion of IT occurred, then someone went BACK in time and did something to make whatever IT was actually not happen, creating something of a paradox, but not enough of a paradox to destroy time. Therefore, the instance of things that occurred and was "overwritten" by someone going back in time occurred "outside of time". The worry is that someone begins to peer too closely into the dawn cataclysm to figure out what really occurred, which then threatens to bring the paradox to light, and then said person (whether they be good or evil) has to either be distracted, coerced into not digging further, or finally be eliminated "for the greater good". That after all may be why Murdane.... the goddess of Reason... may have had to have been eliminated, because she came too close to the truth..... so Ao had her whacked by Umberlee and told Helm he had to stand by and let it happen.
While I dislike time travel in general, and the idea of things occurring "outside of time," I was reading Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves last night and found some facts that perhaps support this interpretation. Namely it states that Mystryl was, in addition to being the goddess of magic, was also the goddess of time. And she carefully regulated time travel. She seems to regulate time travel at different times, however, being particularly strict pre-Fall of Netheril.
If the Dawn Cataclysm is as you say, namely involved with time travel or some time paradox, and also somehow involves Mystryl, then it explains why she then starts to heavily regulate time travel. |
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Wendolyn
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 20:24:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We know the Weave went down in -339, but this earlier instance is not listed in Netheril's histories, so the DC had to happen before Netheril was keeping records (or at the very latest, before the first enclave went skyward).
I agree that the weave failing is not listed in Netheril's history. But, to my knowledge, it is also not listed in the histories of Jhaamdath, Calimshan, or the many elven empires that preceded Netheril. Should we then conclude, based on this sort of reasoning, the weave must have failed prior to any of these empires also? While we have the most lore on Netheril, and it was the most magical human nation, beyond this I'm not sure why we should prioritize its records (or absence from its records) so highly above all other nations. And then if we follow this reasoning, Lathander becomes a very old god indeed. Which perhaps he is! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 23:25:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendolyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We know the Weave went down in -339, but this earlier instance is not listed in Netheril's histories, so the DC had to happen before Netheril was keeping records (or at the very latest, before the first enclave went skyward).
I agree that the weave failing is not listed in Netheril's history. But, to my knowledge, it is also not listed in the histories of Jhaamdath, Calimshan, or the many elven empires that preceded Netheril. Should we then conclude, based on this sort of reasoning, the weave must have failed prior to any of these empires also? While we have the most lore on Netheril, and it was the most magical human nation, beyond this I'm not sure why we should prioritize its records (or absence from its records) so highly above all other nations.
It's not just not mentioned in Netherese history, it's not mentioned any histories that we've seen. Netheril is more recent than a lot of other empires, though, and would have been more impacted than most -- so it's fair to say if it's not in their history, it happened before them.
quote:
Originally posted by Wendolyn
And then if we follow this reasoning, Lathander becomes a very old god indeed. Which perhaps he is!
Unless you go with my idea of Lathander being something other than the god he is today, when the whole thing started.
I agree that Ed's Tweet makes a lot of timing issues for the DC -- but then again, there have always been timing issues with the DC-- like the fact Azuth ascended around the time of the Dawn Cataclysm, and that was after he was a Magister. We know when he was no longer the Magister, and that's a hell of a long gap. And the first recorded mention in published Realmslore of Lathander was well after the fall of Netheril. The fact that the Dawn Cataclysm has been said to presage the Fall of Myth Drannor rather strongly implies that the DC happened whilst Myth Drannor was around. And Tyche split during the DC and her church schismed well after Netheril, as well. And so on.
So while Ed's Tweet does complicate matters, it's already a complicated mess.
Temporal wonkiness, as I said earlier, is hard to wrap one's head around -- and it's a little too handwavium for me. Hence, I favor the idea that the Dawn Cataclysm wasn't just something that happened and was done. Either it drug on for centuries, or the direct effects of it continued on for some time. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Apr 2021 23:26:46 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 23:31:48
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Random idea that I just had: the name Dawn Cataclysm implies that it was, well, cataclysmic... And thinks I that it would have been noticed in the mortal world.
What if it was, but the cause was misunderstood by mortals? Maybe a huge cooperative spell was being cast when the DC went down, and the combined effects of this spell and the Weave going offline during the DC had some rather unanticipated and continent-reshaping effects?
Maybe the elves aren't so responsible for the Sundering, after all...
Just a thought. Not sure that I'd try to include it, even if I was trying to figure out the entire DC. |
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New Theory on Dawn Cataclysm
