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Originally posted by Aldrick


There should always be at least some uncertainty when it comes to the deities--even if the likelihood of being wrong is remote.

When it comes to divine servitors, they should not have any more direct connection to the deity than mortals. They are simply the embodiments of aspects of what the deity represents and exist to carry out the deities divine will as they interpret it to be and their essence/existence dictates.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

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Originally posted by Aldrick

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s59W4ElcxkA

Found it! It is a panel, I think from GenCon 2014, so they are discussing the Sundering and the six books the authors in the panel are writing. It's kind of long, but Ed starts talking about his original intent around 22:40, I believe. Watching/listening to it again, he did say that in his original Realms, it was true the gods were not meant to directly appear. They appeared in dreams/visions, or you went to a temple and prayed, and a sign from the god would appear, or a cryptic message would roll through your head. So yes, more mystery. However, that still makes the gods a powerful force in the Realms. Involved, and still very much a part of the Realms, but via more mysterious means. I would still argue that since gods have "established signs", if you will, you are going to know the rose is from Lathander. What you don't know is what he wants.

I don't mind indirect interactions. What I would mind is removing them to the point they might as well not be there, because even with the rose from Lathander, there isn't the question of Lathander's existence. I don't want the "well, maybe they exist, maybe they don't", to come into the Realms, because that takes away the spice entirely. Realmsians have long known the gods exist, whether they understand them or not. Yes, faith is part of it, but faith works differently in the Realms than it does in the RW. Their existence is fact. What they want you to do with the signals they send is up to the DM or the writer, if it's a novel. Ed's original intent, at least from my understanding of the panel, was to make them awe-inspiring and mysterious, but not removed and distant (albeit perhaps more distant than they have been, since they would be no longer be directly appearing). Just not so distant they don't do anything.

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Thanks for finding that interview CorellonsDevout. I remember that panel. People should go listen to it. The part where Ed talks about the deities and his original intent start at 28:28--the question starts there and Ed discusses it for several minutes.

It pretty much goes to what I have been writing here in the thread. Ed has been very consistent over the years in what he has written here on Candlekeep, just like in that interview. Ed also in his response there, outlines exactly the problems that I laid out with having the deities make direct "in the flesh" appearances and the consequences of having done that in the canon.

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Sure (sorry, meant to respond to this one earlier, but I got sidetracked). I thought it was around 22:40, but 22:28 would probably be more accurate. I edited the post to include the correct time.

I would still argue that certain things in regards to the lore of the gods could be facts, but others are left to interpretation (like the differing stories of the drow and the elves, or elves and orcs, even). Also, as I said, many of the gods have established signs that they send their followers, so the confusion about the rosebush may not be as likely to happen. Then again, in a remote village, perhaps such a thing is more likely. In either case, if they knew the rosebush was a sign from Chauntea, they would still have to figure out what she is trying to tell them (maybe the local cleric, or the girl, since she was "chosen" to see the sign) may also receive visions or dreams, or Chauntea speaking cryptically. This keeps the mystery while also keeping Chauntea involved with her followers.

The main reason I advocate for the "established signs" is that, since the gods are a large part of the Realms, however it is they interact with their followers, and their existence is fact, it would seem to me that they would make sure there are certain things their followers know (like what kind of signs they give when they are trying to tell their followers something). They may not be able to say directly what it is they want their followers to do, but they can at least get their attention. If Chauntea and Lathander used the same signs all the time, there would be much confusion, and that could lead to its own kind of chaos, which could be just as bad for the gods as it could the mortals, kind of like what Irennan just pointed out. Mystery for the sake of mystery isn't going to always be beneficial.

I like that there have been moments in history where, for better or worse, the gods have directly intervened (and I mean pre-ToT) One example is the Crown Wars, and I don't mean just the Descent. I mean the "stop this now, or you all get slapped" intervention, which led to the founding of the Elven Court. I think that adds to the flavor to Realms, as well, and it was "off screen", anyway, if that makes sense. Same with Dawn Cataclysm. We know it happened, even if we aren't sure when (I have been skimming through my copy of Grand History of the Realms lately), and I like seeing both the mortal and deific history. Adds that spice we've been talking about. ;)

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The deities do usually have established methods of manifesting in the Realms--that's canon. It's been canon for a long time. It is just rarely used.

I randomly selected a deity from Faiths and Avatars, which happened to be Deneir. According to F&A, Deneir prefers to manifest as a glowing nimbus of light around a book, and if a mortal opens the book the radiance will move around to indicate things. For example, the radiance might highlight certain key passages or pages--the deity is trying to draw the mortals attention to something specific in this case. Deneir can also manifest as a disembodied glowing hand, which can telekinetically move books or other objects around the room, gesture, and cast spells. Deneir rarely speaks when manifesting, and when appearing as the hand will write with silent letters of fire in midair or in a mortal's mind.

This second type of intervention--the glowing hand--is obviously super rare. This is when the deity is doing its best to commune with the mortal urgently. Obviously, even then there is some room for interpretation--Deneir is not going to write out a list of instructions or orders. Instead, it will be a single word or a short phrase.

F&A also, it should be noted, does exactly what I did in drawing a distinction between the novels and the setting. On page 20, under Running Powers in the Realms, the following is written:

"Many Realms novels have depicted the powers of the Realms as being involved in all sorts of intimate details of Realms life. These are the behaviors of characters in novels. They are supposed to be dramatic, bold, and bigger than life. Novels need to bring the reader in close to the inner workings of their characters’ minds so that readers can identify with the novels’ leading characters. They need to accomplish their storytelling task with a limited cast of characters to keep the experience of the story intimate and coherent for a reader. That does not mean that the powers of the Realms need to talk routinely to anyone face-to-face in a DM’s own campaign. Just because the novels about the Realms have often spotlighted the powers does not mean AD&D game campaign play has to.

The most important principle in having deities in a fantasy role-playing campaign is to use them judiciously and sparingly in one’s campaign play. It is certainly possible to run a high-level role-playing game in which deities commonly appear for the purpose of helping player characters. But such a campaign usually stops being fun for the characters very quickly. The AD&D game is designed for a more mortal level of play. The player characters are heroic not because of the tremendous powers they might or might not accumulate, but because of the terrible risks they take in the face of imminent death. To use a power to save characters from those risks time and time again is to sully the heart of the game.

This conflict between the way the novels have portrayed the Realms vs how things really were in the setting vs what Ed intended has been going on for a long time. However, it was really the Time of Troubles which opened the real can of worms which we have never been able to close. Ever since that point, the Realms has spiraled from one RSE catastrophe to another, ultimately leading us to the events of 4th Edition.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Doing my own bit of thread resurrection, with some new info, courtesy of Ed, on the Twitter.


@Greysil_Tassyr

If Mystra's Chosen are there to stabilize the Weave, and Mystryl had Chosen... Does that mean that Karsus's Ultimate Mistake wasn't the first time the Weave went down?


@TheEdVerse

Yes. ;}
#Realmslore


@Greysil_Tassyr

Oh ye wascally bearded wabbit, you know we want to know more!


@TheEdVerse

Let me give thee two words: Dawn Cataclysm.
#Realmslore


@Greysil_Tassyr

A new conundrum, then... Tyche was split during the Dawn Cataclysm. Karsus's Oops was in -339 DR, so the DC had to be before then -- but Tyche's church didn't split into Tymora's and Beshaba's until the 700s... Why the millennium-long delay?


@TheEdVerse

NDA. (Diabolical laughter.)

Elminster sighs, rolls eyes, steps in front of laughing Eddie, and says solemnly: "The answer is lost to us in the mists of time. Just get on with thy life."

@Greysil_Tassyr

Poo. I feared the arrival of that particular Trio Nefarious, as the esteemed Steven Schend once spoke of NDAs.

Thankee for the lore, even if it does upend all my prior speculation about when the DC happened!


@TheEdVerse

We still don't know when it happened...or even if it happened the way we've been told. Priests of Lathander have a very different take on it than many other clergies...and not one priest alive today was alive then, to know the truth. It's ALL speculation.
#Realmslore

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Originally posted by cpthero2


That is fascinating! I would love to see an speak with dead or resurrection done, and have those priests from that time deposed to a Tyrran court to answer those questions. ;)

I'm kind of serious. That would be some great Realms courtroom drama right there.

"Your honor, I next call to the stand, Lathander."

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Originally posted by Delnyn

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Originally posted by cpthero2


That is fascinating! I would love to see an speak with dead or resurrection done, and have those priests from that time deposed to a Tyrran court to answer those questions. ;)

I'm kind of serious. That would be some great Realms courtroom drama right there.

"Your honor, I next call to the stand, Lathander."

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The book "Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad" gives you the flavor of a trial in a Tyrran court. Unfortunately, Tyr might order a mortal to do something that would anger the other deities, such as opening up the Cyrinishad. Shar, Talos and Tempus were ready to smite, Tyr's order in the court be damned.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I swear some NDAs remain NDAs lol

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I've had a thought...

Ed says that the Weave went down under Mystryl, and that's why she had Chosen -- and that this happened during the Dawn Cataclysm.

Which means the DC happened during -- or before -- the time of Netheril.

I'm not aware of anything referring to a failure of magic *during* the time of Netheril -- but we don't know much about the time before Netheril. So maybe it all happened *before* Netheril was a nation.

Of course, there's another issue -- Lathander is said to have started the DC.

Amaunator was the deity that was around at that time, though. And so far as I know, the first references to Lathander come well after the fall of Netheril.

This makes it tricky for Lathander to have started it...

So either he didn't have anything to do with it, but for some reason has taken the blame... Or maybe it was Amaunator that started the whole thing, and something about the entire mess caused the emergence of Lathander.

Maybe Lathander was just an aspect of Amaunator, or maybe a Chosen of Amaunator, or maybe a paladin or cleric of Amaunator... Maybe Amaunator used him to kick things off, and Lathander ascended because of it all. Or maybe the (semi-)mortal Lathander did something because he was overzealous, and it cascaded...

Of course, this is just speculation, and I could be off on my thoughts of when Lathander first appeared.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I have the impression that Lathander's plans always backfire, lol. I mean, the Dawn Cataclysm, then the plan to use Amaunator to gain more power that ends up with Amaunator getting back and stealing his turf for a time...

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

To go along with Wooly's musings, what if Ao knew about the DC, and let it play out as it did because Lathander needed to come into being, whether he originated as an aspect of Amaunataur, was a separate entity who was going to take Amaunataur's place, or was an ascended mortal. Of course, it is just as likely that Ao *didn't* know the DC was going to happen. Either way, maybe it had to happen the way it did to put Lathander in his place, both literally and figuratively.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I don't mind Ao being there, and it is hard to say what he does and does not care about (he cared enough to cause the ToT and Second Sundering, after all). He seems to care when the deities step out of line (YMMV, of course, as he doesn't intervene in all events--he didn't with the Spellplague, after all, so again, it's hard to know what he does and does not care about, but, being the overgod, I don't think he is entirely indifferent to deific actions. Mortals, sure, but not deities).

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I actually like deific involvement. One of my favorite things about the Realms is that they are real and active forces, with portfolios and personalities. I agree sometimes it can be overdone, but I feel they add richness to the Realms. Of course there should be some mystery, but I wouldn't want them to be so far removed that they might as well not be there. I'd probably leave the fandom if that happened lol.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I think it's a balance. I worry that 5e is trying to push them away too much (as the SCAG describes them as "quieter"), but I agree that something like a god coming down for tea is a bit much. I like the way it was done in WotSQ and Cunningham's Evermeet (and I thought having the gods as characters in the Avatar series was fun. I'm glad the Sundering restored the pantheon (I hated the reduction in 4e), and I wish we had seen more details with the Sundering.

I think it's a matter of what kind of NPC they are portrayed as, lol. You can have a mysterious NPC (not know their motives). I'm aware I'm in the minority on this though lol. I'm like, "yay, deities!" and most everyone else is, like, "enough already" haha.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

That's true, there is that risk. Some mystery allows us to muse and have these discussions in the first place. As I said, I think it's a matter of how the NPC (going by the gods as NPCs example) is portrayed. I wouldn't want them to be completely "mortalized", either.

But, as mortals, I think we only would have and understand a piece of the puzzle anyway, even if we are given their motivations for something. There are doubtless things about those motivations we will never understand. For examples, things that appear like petty squabbling between deities to us probably has some deep underlying issues and things we just can't comprehend, so I think there is still room for mystery even when we are given motivations, but I understand what you mean. I don't mind them being relegated to certain kinds of involvement, I just wouldn't want them so far removed that they might as well not be there, as I said before. They make up a good portion of the Realms and Realmslore, so pushing them away too much would take away a big portion of what makes the Realms what it is. But it can be overdone, yes. It's about balance, and the pendulum tends to swing one way or the other, so the balance probably hasn't been struck yet, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be, imho.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

A secondary issue of the Dawn Cataclysm happening so early: we know that the DC was when Tyche got infected by Moander.

We also know that her church split into the churches of Tymora and Beshaba during the 700s DR -- 1000 years, and possibly thousands more, after the DC.

So either the DC was a multi-part event, spanning millennia, or there's some reason Tyche's church didn't split for a very long time.

I, personally, think it's quite unlikely that the rival goddesses would have continued sharing followers for so long -- but I'm not keen on the idea of the DC going on for so long.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You know, Baltas just gave me another thought...

I've never liked the idea of the Lathander-Amaunator-Myrkul cycle... What if, instead of those three being one continuously changing deity, they were all, originally, separate?

Here's the idea: At one point, there was just Amaunator, and some earlier, now-forgotten nature deity, whom I will dub Moathan.

Now, we know what happened when Moander corrupted Tyche -- Selûne zapped her, and out popped Tymora and Beshaba.

What if this wasn't the first time one deity had split into two?

What if Moathan covered the entire cycle of life, from rebirth to decay and back? And then somehow Moathan got corrupted, and split into two aspects -- Lathander (rebirth) and Moander (decay)?

The young Lathander could have been absorbed by Amaunator, who at that time covered all of the solar aspects. Absorbing all of that "good" from Lathander was kind of overwhelming, causing the dusk aspect of Amaunator to be lost -- eventually getting picked up by Myrkul.

And Lathander wasn't fully subsumed, so sometimes he's the prominent one, and other times Amaunator is.

Hmm, now I've got two theories for Moander's creation that I really like!

Edit: Cast banish typo.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The Moander/Lathander connection was another of my random ideas. Nothing supports it; it was just something that occurred to me one day.

Here's the original post:

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You know, Baltas just gave me another thought...

I've never liked the idea of the Lathander-Amaunator-Myrkul cycle... What if, instead of those three being one continuously changing deity, they were all, originally, separate?

Here's the idea: At one point, there was just Amaunator, and some earlier, now-forgotten nature deity, whom I will dub Moathan.

Now, we know what happened when Moander corrupted Tyche -- Selûne zapped her, and out popped Tymora and Beshaba.

What if this wasn't the first time one deity had split into two?

What if Moathan covered the entire cycle of life, from rebirth to decay and back? And then somehow Moathan got corrupted, and split into two aspects -- Lathander (rebirth) and Moander (decay)?

The young Lathander could have been absorbed by Amaunator, who at that time covered all of the solar aspects. Absorbing all of that "good" from Lathander was kind of overwhelming, causing the dusk aspect of Amaunator to be lost -- eventually getting picked up by Myrkul.

And Lathander wasn't fully subsumed, so sometimes he's the prominent one, and other times Amaunator is.

Hmm, now I've got two theories for Moander's creation that I really like!

Edit: Cast banish typo.

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