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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 20:03:25
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| I may be wrong about this but a memory stirs about the first meeting of Elminster and the Simbul. If I'm recalling correctly it had something to do with their meddling in Thayan affairs. Even if my memory is wrong though, it stands to reason that both have worked hard to prevent Thay from moving beyond its borders. The Simbul's involvement in that regard is canon. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 00:08:38
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| Its my viewpoint that the original Thay was more fractured and that some of these original power groups may still be at play in things to a small degree. There were the Mulans, but there were also the non-Mulans from Halruaa (the original red wizards... of which Velsharoon was one). I believe that the reason that the necromancers of Pholzubbalt (aka the boneyard) ended up leaving their city is that they became involved in the Thayan revolt and eventually joined Thay. I also believe that remnants of the Theurgist Adepts were also involved (some of whom were probably part of Pholzubbalt). I believe that mages who had delved into ancient Narfellian magic also joined the movement (thus the involvement of Eltab). I also believe that studiers of Raumathar were involved, and thus the focus on fire magic and the worship of Kossuth (remember, it was the Raumathari that summoned Kossuth in the final battle), and the school of evocation to this day has a bit of reverence for the Raumathari Battlemages as well as the church of Kossuth. I personally believe that the original Thayan revolt included binders (and if you include the rules of Secrets of Pact Magic, then definitely soul weavers as well as a mix of pact and wizardry users) as well amongst the Theurgist Adepts, but because of the Zulkirship, these types of casters were overshadowed and their arts nearly lost. Ever since I saw the rules for pact magic, my belief has been that Thayd was turned into a vestige/spirit and that some individuals in the uprising were channeling him (this somewhat contradicts established lore about Thayd, but not a whole lot to tell the truth). Thus, to a degree Thayd was also leading the revolt. Then there's the demi-lich Ythazz Buvaar acting in the shadows as well. Plus, Zhengyi the Witch-King was at one time a red wizard and may have done some manipulation. Throw in the churches trying to get involved in the government as well (mainly Kossuth, Bane, and Velsharoon.... which remember Velsharoon was an ex-red wizard). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 02:14:53
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Bravo sleyvas. Your take on Thay is very much the same as mine. Lots of disparate groups and wizards all in conflict over centuries, manipulating realms near and far, and in turn being manpulated by other individuals and power groups (Harper King anyone? Covenant?). I would love to see a fully fleshed out, detailed examination of Thay. There is so much that I think still lies in Ed's basement.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 04:47:51
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Where does the bit about Halruaans in Thay come from? I must be having a duh moment.  |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 09:37:54
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So we have Narfelli Binders, Raumathari Battlemages, The Diviners (not as in the school of divination, but as in worshippers of gods), The Order of the Black Flame (ran by Thayd), Ythazz Buvarr and his faction (which was probably into necromancy given his transformation into a demilich). I think the idea of Elminster also being the force behind a faction is a not a bad idea, we get very few instances of a good guy pretending to be bad.
I'm not entirely sure how the Harper King went about manipulating the Red Wizards but i am loathe to go against GK since he must have said it for a reason. The only reference i have of the Harper King is him wresting control of undead Harpers from Szass Tam, i assumed that would be through greater mastery of magic but i suppose the Harper King could have had sleeper agents in Thay for many years and when he gave the command those Red Wizards loyal to him disrupted Szass and his apprentice's control over the undead so the Harper King could take it.
I hadnt thought about the covenant at all. It's a great idea for a faction. In fact the covenant starts working against Thay subtle in 976 DR and then the next mention i have of Thay is 1020 DR when they develop much of their unique fire magic, so i wonder if Aganazzar; known for his fire spells, helped steer them away from summoning magics and towards evocation magics which the covenant were already masters. Then the next mention of Thay is 1030 DR when the Zulkirs are finally established.
I wonder if the Covenant (with the help of El perhaps) had a hand in founding the Zulkirs, knowing Thays factionalised society and that it would keep Thay at odds with itself as the various factions vie for control on continually undermine each other.
The only other faction i can think of is another one mentioned in the Code of the Harpers, a faction of Malaugrym. The Zulkir Mythrell'aa could be a representative of this faction.
All we need now is too sort out the muddle of the others and name them. Jorgmacdon was undoubtedly working for his Narfelli sponsors and given how his actions ware described i think Ythazz Buvarr was part of a different faction but allied to the Narfelli.
quote:
Jorgmacdon, the leading conjurer of the Red Wizards, tunnelled into the Thaymount demoncyst in which Eltab had been imprisoned for more than seven hundred years. Using a rediscovered ritual of the Narfelli demonbinders, he called forth the demon lord to fight alongside the Red Wizards at the Battle of Thazalhar. In so doing, Jorgmacdon inadvertently shattered the boundary that normally keeps the environment of a demoncyst from mixing with the outside world, and thus created the River Eltar. Tainted Abyssal water from the River of Blood begins mixing with the River Eltar.
-The Battale of Thazalhar: The Red Wizards [249, 934] of Thay, led by Ythazz Buvaar, rebel against Mulhorandi rule and sack the provincial capital at Delhumide. The conjurer Jorgmacdon summons the demon lord Eltab [202, 1367] to fight on behalf of the Red Wizards at the Battle of Thazalhar, routing the armies of Mulhorand.
The realm of Thay is founded, heralding the end of the Second Mulhorand Empire.
-Realising that it is impossible to dismiss Eltab, Jorgmacdon imprisons him near the mouth of the River Eltar using a variant of the same ritual used by Narfelli demonbinders a millennia ago.
In the beginning of Thay's creation in 922 DR there were three factions that balanced each other out nicely allowing no one group to maintain dominance, but at the same time forced cooperation because alone they could not accomplish anything. These were the Narfelli Binders, the Raumathari Battlemages, and the Diviners.
Narfelli Binders: So the Narfelli Binders may or may not be around in modern Thay. I dont think they exist in any strength in modern Thay, none of the reigning Zulkirs look to have any ties to them. However they were probably supporters of the Imperialist faction and either they allied with Szass Tam or he stole their secrets (how else would he know about Eltab and how to bind him). Either way they will be very closely tied to Eltab and now that he is free they will probably start forming cults across Thay looking to bring down Szass Tam.
Raumathari Battlemages: This faction looks to be alive and well in modern Thay with one of its members being Aznar Thrul the Zulker of Evocation. Aznar ended the Salamander War by summoning an avatar of Kossuth to drive the elemental forces from the Wizard's Reach. This faction is now one of the most powerful in Thay and were probably supporters of the Imperialist group and now strongly anti Szass Tam. It would make sense for them to be allied with the Diviners which include the church of Kossuth among their number.
The Diviners: This factions includes the churches of the strongest churches in Thay; particularly Kossuth and Bane. They seek to mould Thay into a theocracy/magocracy, with an equal number of priests and wizards as Zulkirs. The diviners were previously a minor presence and part of the Researchers, but their recent actions during the Salamander War have earned them a measure of respect for power and elevated the church of Kossuth to a prime status in Thay. The return of Bane has also reinvigourated his church and the two combined have resulted in a much stronger presence for the Diviners in Thay. As yet this faction are undecided about Szass Tam, their support will depend upon his actions towards the various churchers in Thay.
The Order of the Black Flame: Originally an Untheric order that was destroyed centuries before the creation of Thay. The order was revived by the Covenant after 976 DR when they began to work subtly against Thay from the inside. Using this false secret society the covenant used the pretext of discovering ancient magical repositories from the original order of the black flame, and using these discoveries helped Thay develop much of it's fire based magic in use today. In doing so they turned the developing nation of Thay away from the Narfelli Binders faction and the use of gates and summoning magic which had interfered with the Covenant's plans so much in the Savage Frontier.
At the same time the creation of this order polarised Thay's society into two groups by upsetting the balance of power, a status quo that has existed pretty much to the present day. At first the groups were Narfell or Raumathar (the order of the black flame supported Raumathar) then after the formation of Thay and the Zulkirate it was Imperialist or Researcher. Today it is Szass Tam or anti Szass Tam.
Thayd's Order: A relatively minor order that has kept itself a secret from most of Thay, even the other factions are unaware of it's existence and it survives largely as a sub faction of every existing faction. This order's sponsor is none other than the vestige of the spiritual father of Thay. His followers seek to keep the two factions balanced and prevent any one group of Thayans from becoming dominant. Thayd's reasons for this are unknown but his followers obey unswervingly.
This order was actually created by Elminster himself who in disguise instructed the first members of the Order how to bind and draw power from their forebear. Elminster's reasons for doing so are likewise unknown but likely revolve around ensuring that Thay never becomes united and therefore strong enough to threaten the rest of Faerun.
The Malaugrym: A new and rising faction. This group appeared around the time of the Harpstar Wars as the Malaugrym sought to infiltrate other power groups in Faerun to combat the Harpers and Khelben and Elminster.
Their representative on the Zulkirate is Mythrell'aa, and true to most Malaugrym she is mysterious and elusive and her thoughts and motivations are unknown to the others.
The Devoted of Mystra: A secret faction in Thay because the worship of Mystra is outlawed; only the Red Wizards should have access to magic. Ironically the creator of Thay; Ythazz Buvarr, like Thay'd before him, was a theurgist and manipulated divine and arcane magic with equal skill. Ythazz was a devout worshipper of Mystra and it was his hope to create a magocracy in the south free of the tyranny of the old empires.
He achieved his aim by allying with magist orders such as the Narfelli Binders and Raumathari Battlemages and together they defeated the armies of the god kings and created a nation were magic was king.
Unfortunately for Ythazz, his dream quickly began to crumble as the corruption caused by power acquired through magic began to destabilise Thay. Although a powerful lich and necromancer/priest of Mystra, Ythazz could not prevent the factions from rallying against him and ousting him from his position of power.
Today the Devoted of Mystra still exists in secret with one major player at it's helm. Szass Tam, would-be king of Thay is working towards uniting Thay once again and making magic king, not politics. With a nation of powerful spellcasters at his behest Thay will work the greatest magics in modern Faerun. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 23:48:00
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I postulated in my musings on the Covenant that their battle with the Red Wizards provided the catalyst for the quasi-unification of that group and was the impetus for the establishment of the Zulkirate.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 00:00:47
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Where does the bit about Halruaans in Thay come from? I must be having a duh moment.
Its been there since the world was created. The original "secrets of the sages" mailer that was sent out to owners of the 1st edition gray box discussed Halruaa.
"These Halruan magic-users are of great and mysterious power. Thay#146;'s current regime is said by some to have been founded by renegade Halruan mages."
Also, this from the 2nd edition Shining South, page 4
"Halruaa also suffered through a civil war about five centuries ago. A number of mages advocated beginning new experiments in magic, ones which even the Netheril didn#146;t approve of. The renegades were driven from the region. The surviving renegades left to found the land of
Thay, or so it is said in Halruaa."
Also, this from Shining South 3rd edition
"827 Year of the Sacrificed Fortune: The wizard Omm Hlandrar of Halruaa engages a Red Wizard named Velsharoon in a spectacular magical battle in the skies over the Shaar. The contest ends in a draw."
there's another quote somewhere else in 3rd edition, but I can't recall it. But basically, 5 centuries before 1357 there was a bitter civil war in Halruaa and the red wizards left and helped Thay get formed. Note, Velsharoon's fight with Omm is 5 centuries ago. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 00:05:49
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Bravo sleyvas. Your take on Thay is very much the same as mine. Lots of disparate groups and wizards all in conflict over centuries, manipulating realms near and far, and in turn being manpulated by other individuals and power groups (Harper King anyone? Covenant?). I would love to see a fully fleshed out, detailed examination of Thay. There is so much that I think still lies in Ed's basement.
-- George Krashos
Its long been on my bucket list to really play all of that out. I like the idea that Velsharoon and Zhengyi were "friends" to a degree in that they helped one another until they both ended up on the outs with the Zulkirship. From there each went their own way (Zhengyi decided to become a ruler elsewhere, while Velsharoon simply sought to improve his magical skill and gain mystical power instead of political.... and my own version of Velsharoon was triple classed (non-specialized wizard/true necromancer/binder) and very weak comparatively to his compatriots of similar level until he started hitting the epic levels). Its my belief that Velsharoon was one of the folks channeling Thayd. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 01:07:14
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So we have Narfelli Binders, Raumathari Battlemages, The Diviners (not as in the school of divination, but as in worshippers of gods), The Order of the Black Flame (ran by Thayd), Ythazz Buvarr and his faction (which was probably into necromancy given his transformation into a demilich). I think the idea of Elminster also being the force behind a faction is a not a bad idea, we get very few instances of a good guy pretending to be bad.
I'm not entirely sure how the Harper King went about manipulating the Red Wizards but i am loathe to go against GK since he must have said it for a reason. The only reference i have of the Harper King is him wresting control of undead Harpers from Szass Tam, i assumed that would be through greater mastery of magic but i suppose the Harper King could have had sleeper agents in Thay for many years and when he gave the command those Red Wizards loyal to him disrupted Szass and his apprentice's control over the undead so the Harper King could take it.
I hadnt thought about the covenant at all. It's a great idea for a faction. In fact the covenant starts working against Thay subtle in 976 DR and then the next mention i have of Thay is 1020 DR when they develop much of their unique fire magic, so i wonder if Aganazzar; known for his fire spells, helped steer them away from summoning magics and towards evocation magics which the covenant were already masters. Then the next mention of Thay is 1030 DR when the Zulkirs are finally established.
I wonder if the Covenant (with the help of El perhaps) had a hand in founding the Zulkirs, knowing Thays factionalised society and that it would keep Thay at odds with itself as the various factions vie for control on continually undermine each other.
The only other faction i can think of is another one mentioned in the Code of the Harpers, a faction of Malaugrym. The Zulkir Mythrell'aa could be a representative of this faction.
All we need now is too sort out the muddle of the others and name them. Jorgmacdon was undoubtedly working for his Narfelli sponsors and given how his actions ware described i think Ythazz Buvarr was part of a different faction but allied to the Narfelli.
quote:
Jorgmacdon, the leading conjurer of the Red Wizards, tunnelled into the Thaymount demoncyst in which Eltab had been imprisoned for more than seven hundred years. Using a rediscovered ritual of the Narfelli demonbinders, he called forth the demon lord to fight alongside the Red Wizards at the Battle of Thazalhar. In so doing, Jorgmacdon inadvertently shattered the boundary that normally keeps the environment of a demoncyst from mixing with the outside world, and thus created the River Eltar. Tainted Abyssal water from the River of Blood begins mixing with the River Eltar.
-The Battale of Thazalhar: The Red Wizards [249, 934] of Thay, led by Ythazz Buvaar, rebel against Mulhorandi rule and sack the provincial capital at Delhumide. The conjurer Jorgmacdon summons the demon lord Eltab [202, 1367] to fight on behalf of the Red Wizards at the Battle of Thazalhar, routing the armies of Mulhorand.
The realm of Thay is founded, heralding the end of the Second Mulhorand Empire.
-Realising that it is impossible to dismiss Eltab, Jorgmacdon imprisons him near the mouth of the River Eltar using a variant of the same ritual used by Narfelli demonbinders a millennia ago.
In the beginning of Thay's creation in 922 DR there were three factions that balanced each other out nicely allowing no one group to maintain dominance, but at the same time forced cooperation because alone they could not accomplish anything. These were the Narfelli Binders, the Raumathari Battlemages, and the Diviners.
Narfelli Binders: So the Narfelli Binders may or may not be around in modern Thay. I dont think they exist in any strength in modern Thay, none of the reigning Zulkirs look to have any ties to them. However they were probably supporters of the Imperialist faction and either they allied with Szass Tam or he stole their secrets (how else would he know about Eltab and how to bind him). Either way they will be very closely tied to Eltab and now that he is free they will probably start forming cults across Thay looking to bring down Szass Tam.
Raumathari Battlemages: This faction looks to be alive and well in modern Thay with one of its members being Aznar Thrul the Zulker of Evocation. Aznar ended the Salamander War by summoning an avatar of Kossuth to drive the elemental forces from the Wizard's Reach. This faction is now one of the most powerful in Thay and were probably supporters of the Imperialist group and now strongly anti Szass Tam. It would make sense for them to be allied with the Diviners which include the church of Kossuth among their number.
The Diviners: This factions includes the churches of the strongest churches in Thay; particularly Kossuth and Bane. They seek to mould Thay into a theocracy/magocracy, with an equal number of priests and wizards as Zulkirs. The diviners were previously a minor presence and part of the Researchers, but their recent actions during the Salamander War have earned them a measure of respect for power and elevated the church of Kossuth to a prime status in Thay. The return of Bane has also reinvigourated his church and the two combined have resulted in a much stronger presence for the Diviners in Thay. As yet this faction are undecided about Szass Tam, their support will depend upon his actions towards the various churchers in Thay.
The Order of the Black Flame: Originally an Untheric order that was destroyed centuries before the creation of Thay. The order was revived by the Covenant after 976 DR when they began to work subtly against Thay from the inside. Using this false secret society the covenant used the pretext of discovering ancient magical repositories from the original order of the black flame, and using these discoveries helped Thay develop much of it's fire based magic in use today. In doing so they turned the developing nation of Thay away from the Narfelli Binders faction and the use of gates and summoning magic which had interfered with the Covenant's plans so much in the Savage Frontier.
At the same time the creation of this order polarised Thay's society into two groups by upsetting the balance of power, a status quo that has existed pretty much to the present day. At first the groups were Narfell or Raumathar (the order of the black flame supported Raumathar) then after the formation of Thay and the Zulkirate it was Imperialist or Researcher. Today it is Szass Tam or anti Szass Tam.
Thayd's Order: A relatively minor order that has kept itself a secret from most of Thay, even the other factions are unaware of it's existence and it survives largely as a sub faction of every existing faction. This order's sponsor is none other than the vestige of the spiritual father of Thay. His followers seek to keep the two factions balanced and prevent any one group of Thayans from becoming dominant. Thayd's reasons for this are unknown but his followers obey unswervingly.
This order was actually created by Elminster himself who in disguise instructed the first members of the Order how to bind and draw power from their forebear. Elminster's reasons for doing so are likewise unknown but likely revolve around ensuring that Thay never becomes united and therefore strong enough to threaten the rest of Faerun.
The Malaugrym: A new and rising faction. This group appeared around the time of the Harpstar Wars as the Malaugrym sought to infiltrate other power groups in Faerun to combat the Harpers and Khelben and Elminster.
Their representative on the Zulkirate is Mythrell'aa, and true to most Malaugrym she is mysterious and elusive and her thoughts and motivations are unknown to the others.
The Devoted of Mystra: A secret faction in Thay because the worship of Mystra is outlawed; only the Red Wizards should have access to magic. Ironically the creator of Thay; Ythazz Buvarr, like Thay'd before him, was a theurgist and manipulated divine and arcane magic with equal skill. Ythazz was a devout worshipper of Mystra and it was his hope to create a magocracy in the south free of the tyranny of the old empires.
He achieved his aim by allying with magist orders such as the Narfelli Binders and Raumathari Battlemages and together they defeated the armies of the god kings and created a nation were magic was king.
Unfortunately for Ythazz, his dream quickly began to crumble as the corruption caused by power acquired through magic began to destabilise Thay. Although a powerful lich and necromancer/priest of Mystra, Ythazz could not prevent the factions from rallying against him and ousting him from his position of power.
Today the Devoted of Mystra still exists in secret with one major player at it's helm. Szass Tam, would-be king of Thay is working towards uniting Thay once again and making magic king, not politics. With a nation of powerful spellcasters at his behest Thay will work the greatest magics in modern Faerun.
I recommend reading through this thread from last year. Its got a decent amount of quoted lore that you won't find anywhere else concerning the founding of Thay. One very interesting piece is at the end about the founding of the Zulkirship.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18288&whichpage=2
Don't forget the Halruaan influence at the outset. They should be a powerful but small in number group who helped at the core of the movement. However, during the movement, many of them may have died, and following the movement they may have died in the internal strife.
I like the idea of Thayd's order, except for the part about Elminster forming it. I actually propose that Velsharoon helped found it by being the one that used his knowledge of pact magic to uncover how to bind Thayd.
On the Secret of Mystra group, don't have Thayd or Ythazz have any divine capability. They HATE religion. They are Theurgist Adepts, with links to the Theurgian Society (binder society, see Tome of Magic). Personally, I don't believe Ythazz was a binder, but I do postulate that he was a lesser lieutenant in Thayd's time.
Also, given that the Rashemi males with spellcasting ability at the time were being subjugated, I suspect that some of those who joined the movement were actually Rashemi outcasts who learned of this outside world while on dajemma.
Also you MAY want to throw in some of what I termed "Aulkirs". Basically, there are "sub-schools" that are out there that have aligned themselves with certain Zulkirships. The practictioners of these magics are generally less intellectual (int) and more able to work through channeling their will (charisma). However, they usually aren't sorcerers, because sorcerers are looked down upon (my personal belief is that this is due to the propensity for Mulhorandi nobles of aasimar blood being sorcerers).
However, there is a school for dread necromancers which is closely allied to the school of necromancy.
There is a school of battle magics which caters to all kinds of weapon wielding mage (warmages, spellswords, eldritch knights, raumathari battlemages), and this school is broadly supportive of the entire Zulkirship, but moreso the school of evocation. They are literally the "mercenaries" of the Aulkirship.
There is a school of mystical subterfuge which produced beguilers and arcane tricksters mostly, and is closely allied with both the schools of enchantment and illusion, but occasionally supports the school of transmutation. Its also rumored that there is some conflict between this group and the assassin's guilds of Thay.
As mentioned previously, there should be another group delving into pact magic (possibly calling themselves the Reborn Theurgist Adepts)
There should be another group focusing on shadow magics and closely allied to both the Church of Shar and the Zulkirship of Illusion, but not totally in the pocket of either.
There should be another group (lets call them Society of Runic Geometry) who focuses on rune, symbol, and warding magics. They have strong ties to the schools of conjuration and abjuration.
Also, it should be noted that there are actually two groups of Thayan Griffon Riders. There is the Griffin Legion which was comprised of a lot of warriors on griffins. There was also the Griffin Legion that was exclusively red wizards mounted on Griffins. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 01:08:29
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So we have Narfelli Binders, Raumathari Battlemages, The Diviners (not as in the school of divination, but as in worshippers of gods), The Order of the Black Flame (ran by Thayd), Ythazz Buvarr and his faction (which was probably into necromancy given his transformation into a demilich). I think the idea of Elminster also being the force behind a faction is a not a bad idea, we get very few instances of a good guy pretending to be bad.
I'm not entirely sure how the Harper King went about manipulating the Red Wizards but i am loathe to go against GK since he must have said it for a reason. The only reference i have of the Harper King is him wresting control of undead Harpers from Szass Tam, i assumed that would be through greater mastery of magic but i suppose the Harper King could have had sleeper agents in Thay for many years and when he gave the command those Red Wizards loyal to him disrupted Szass and his apprentice's control over the undead so the Harper King could take it.
I hadnt thought about the covenant at all. It's a great idea for a faction. In fact the covenant starts working against Thay subtle in 976 DR and then the next mention i have of Thay is 1020 DR when they develop much of their unique fire magic, so i wonder if Aganazzar; known for his fire spells, helped steer them away from summoning magics and towards evocation magics which the covenant were already masters. Then the next mention of Thay is 1030 DR when the Zulkirs are finally established.
I wonder if the Covenant (with the help of El perhaps) had a hand in founding the Zulkirs, knowing Thays factionalised society and that it would keep Thay at odds with itself as the various factions vie for control on continually undermine each other.
The only other faction i can think of is another one mentioned in the Code of the Harpers, a faction of Malaugrym. The Zulkir Mythrell'aa could be a representative of this faction.
All we need now is too sort out the muddle of the others and name them. Jorgmacdon was undoubtedly working for his Narfelli sponsors and given how his actions ware described i think Ythazz Buvarr was part of a different faction but allied to the Narfelli.
quote:
Jorgmacdon, the leading conjurer of the Red Wizards, tunnelled into the Thaymount demoncyst in which Eltab had been imprisoned for more than seven hundred years. Using a rediscovered ritual of the Narfelli demonbinders, he called forth the demon lord to fight alongside the Red Wizards at the Battle of Thazalhar. In so doing, Jorgmacdon inadvertently shattered the boundary that normally keeps the environment of a demoncyst from mixing with the outside world, and thus created the River Eltar. Tainted Abyssal water from the River of Blood begins mixing with the River Eltar.
-The Battale of Thazalhar: The Red Wizards [249, 934] of Thay, led by Ythazz Buvaar, rebel against Mulhorandi rule and sack the provincial capital at Delhumide. The conjurer Jorgmacdon summons the demon lord Eltab [202, 1367] to fight on behalf of the Red Wizards at the Battle of Thazalhar, routing the armies of Mulhorand.
The realm of Thay is founded, heralding the end of the Second Mulhorand Empire.
-Realising that it is impossible to dismiss Eltab, Jorgmacdon imprisons him near the mouth of the River Eltar using a variant of the same ritual used by Narfelli demonbinders a millennia ago.
In the beginning of Thay's creation in 922 DR there were three factions that balanced each other out nicely allowing no one group to maintain dominance, but at the same time forced cooperation because alone they could not accomplish anything. These were the Narfelli Binders, the Raumathari Battlemages, and the Diviners.
Narfelli Binders: So the Narfelli Binders may or may not be around in modern Thay. I dont think they exist in any strength in modern Thay, none of the reigning Zulkirs look to have any ties to them. However they were probably supporters of the Imperialist faction and either they allied with Szass Tam or he stole their secrets (how else would he know about Eltab and how to bind him). Either way they will be very closely tied to Eltab and now that he is free they will probably start forming cults across Thay looking to bring down Szass Tam.
Raumathari Battlemages: This faction looks to be alive and well in modern Thay with one of its members being Aznar Thrul the Zulker of Evocation. Aznar ended the Salamander War by summoning an avatar of Kossuth to drive the elemental forces from the Wizard's Reach. This faction is now one of the most powerful in Thay and were probably supporters of the Imperialist group and now strongly anti Szass Tam. It would make sense for them to be allied with the Diviners which include the church of Kossuth among their number.
The Diviners: This factions includes the churches of the strongest churches in Thay; particularly Kossuth and Bane. They seek to mould Thay into a theocracy/magocracy, with an equal number of priests and wizards as Zulkirs. The diviners were previously a minor presence and part of the Researchers, but their recent actions during the Salamander War have earned them a measure of respect for power and elevated the church of Kossuth to a prime status in Thay. The return of Bane has also reinvigourated his church and the two combined have resulted in a much stronger presence for the Diviners in Thay. As yet this faction are undecided about Szass Tam, their support will depend upon his actions towards the various churchers in Thay.
The Order of the Black Flame: Originally an Untheric order that was destroyed centuries before the creation of Thay. The order was revived by the Covenant after 976 DR when they began to work subtly against Thay from the inside. Using this false secret society the covenant used the pretext of discovering ancient magical repositories from the original order of the black flame, and using these discoveries helped Thay develop much of it's fire based magic in use today. In doing so they turned the developing nation of Thay away from the Narfelli Binders faction and the use of gates and summoning magic which had interfered with the Covenant's plans so much in the Savage Frontier.
At the same time the creation of this order polarised Thay's society into two groups by upsetting the balance of power, a status quo that has existed pretty much to the present day. At first the groups were Narfell or Raumathar (the order of the black flame supported Raumathar) then after the formation of Thay and the Zulkirate it was Imperialist or Researcher. Today it is Szass Tam or anti Szass Tam.
Thayd's Order: A relatively minor order that has kept itself a secret from most of Thay, even the other factions are unaware of it's existence and it survives largely as a sub faction of every existing faction. This order's sponsor is none other than the vestige of the spiritual father of Thay. His followers seek to keep the two factions balanced and prevent any one group of Thayans from becoming dominant. Thayd's reasons for this are unknown but his followers obey unswervingly.
This order was actually created by Elminster himself who in disguise instructed the first members of the Order how to bind and draw power from their forebear. Elminster's reasons for doing so are likewise unknown but likely revolve around ensuring that Thay never becomes united and therefore strong enough to threaten the rest of Faerun.
The Malaugrym: A new and rising faction. This group appeared around the time of the Harpstar Wars as the Malaugrym sought to infiltrate other power groups in Faerun to combat the Harpers and Khelben and Elminster.
Their representative on the Zulkirate is Mythrell'aa, and true to most Malaugrym she is mysterious and elusive and her thoughts and motivations are unknown to the others.
The Devoted of Mystra: A secret faction in Thay because the worship of Mystra is outlawed; only the Red Wizards should have access to magic. Ironically the creator of Thay; Ythazz Buvarr, like Thay'd before him, was a theurgist and manipulated divine and arcane magic with equal skill. Ythazz was a devout worshipper of Mystra and it was his hope to create a magocracy in the south free of the tyranny of the old empires.
He achieved his aim by allying with magist orders such as the Narfelli Binders and Raumathari Battlemages and together they defeated the armies of the god kings and created a nation were magic was king.
Unfortunately for Ythazz, his dream quickly began to crumble as the corruption caused by power acquired through magic began to destabilise Thay. Although a powerful lich and necromancer/priest of Mystra, Ythazz could not prevent the factions from rallying against him and ousting him from his position of power.
Today the Devoted of Mystra still exists in secret with one major player at it's helm. Szass Tam, would-be king of Thay is working towards uniting Thay once again and making magic king, not politics. With a nation of powerful spellcasters at his behest Thay will work the greatest magics in modern Faerun.
I recommend reading through this thread from last year. Its got a decent amount of quoted lore that you won't find anywhere else concerning the founding of Thay. One very interesting piece is at the end about the founding of the Zulkirship.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18288&whichpage=2
Don't forget the Halruaan influence at the outset. They should be a powerful but small in number group who helped at the core of the movement. However, during the movement, many of them may have died, and following the movement they may have died in the internal strife.
I like the idea of Thayd's order, except for the part about Elminster forming it. I actually propose that Velsharoon helped found it by being the one that used his knowledge of pact magic to uncover how to bind Thayd.
On the Secret of Mystra group, don't have Thayd or Ythazz have any divine capability. They HATE religion. They are Theurgist Adepts, with links to the Theurgian Society (binder society, see Tome of Magic). Personally, I don't believe Ythazz was a binder, but I do postulate that he was a lesser lieutenant in Thayd's time.
Also, given that the Rashemi males with spellcasting ability at the time were being subjugated, I suspect that some of those who joined the movement were actually Rashemi outcasts who learned of this outside world while on dajemma.
Also you MAY want to throw in some of what I termed "Aulkirs". Basically, there are "sub-schools" that are out there that have aligned themselves with certain Zulkirships. The practictioners of these magics are generally less intellectual (int) and more able to work through channeling their will (charisma). However, they usually aren't sorcerers, because sorcerers are looked down upon (my personal belief is that this is due to the propensity for Mulhorandi nobles of aasimar blood being sorcerers).
However, there is a school for dread necromancers which is closely allied to the school of necromancy.
There is a school of battle magics which caters to all kinds of weapon wielding mage (warmages, spellswords, eldritch knights, raumathari battlemages), and this school is broadly supportive of the entire Zulkirship, but moreso the school of evocation. They are literally the "mercenaries" of the Aulkirship.
There is a school of mystical subterfuge which produced beguilers and arcane tricksters mostly, and is closely allied with both the schools of enchantment and illusion, but occasionally supports the school of transmutation. Its also rumored that there is some conflict between this group and the assassin's guilds of Thay.
As mentioned previously, there should be another group delving into pact magic (possibly calling themselves the Reborn Theurgist Adepts)
There should be another group focusing on shadow magics and closely allied to both the Church of Shar and the Zulkirship of Illusion, but not totally in the pocket of either.
There should be another group (lets call them Society of Runic Geometry) who focuses on rune, symbol, and warding magics. They have strong ties to the schools of conjuration and abjuration.
Also, it should be noted that there are actually two groups of Thayan Griffon Riders. There is the Griffin Legion which was comprised of a lot of warriors on griffins. There was also the Griffin Legion that was exclusively red wizards mounted on Griffins. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 01:11:14
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Here's some pre-history that I had kind of come up with at one point
-???? DR Murghos the Imaskari anima mage becomes a powerful necromancer, focusing his research on the magic of undead spirits and soul entrapment.
-???? DR Murghos the Imaskari anima mage crafts the Staff of the Necromancer.
-???? DR Murghos the Imaskari anima mage transforms himself into a lich using his Staff of the Necromancer as his phylactery.
-???? DR Murghos the Imaskari anima mage seeks to become a powerful demi-lich, but something goes wrong with the ritual. His sentience becomes entrapped inside of his phylactery, the Staff of the Necromancer, as his remaining body, a jeweled skull, becomes fused with the staff. The staff changes from being a standard lich's phylactery into a vestige phylactery and the staff becomes an Imaskari artifact that becomes known as "The Skull Staff of the Necromancer".
-???? DR Thayd, a powerful Imaskari anima mage, begins exploring other Crystal Spheres and bringing back knowledge of their magical systems to the Imaskari Empire.
-???? DR Thayd, a powerful Imaskari anima mage, makes contact with a multi-spheric group of binders known as the Theurgian Society. This group of binders, like the Imaskari, believe that the gods are just powerful beings and not worthy of worship. Also, both groups believe that the quest for knowledge should not be filtered through divine eyes if the truth is to be found. As a result, both groups are considered Heathens.
-???? DR with the aid of Thayd and other Imaskari, as well as beings from several other prime worlds, the Theurgian Library is formed.
-2488 DR the incarnation of Horus slays Lord Artificer Yuvaraj, Emperor of Imaskar, signalling the fall of the Imaskar Empire.
-2488 DR Thayd is alerted via spell to the fall of the capital city of Imaskar whilst making notes within the Theurgian Library in a personal journal. He returns to aid his fellow Imaskari, but he is instead trapped by a symbol of Imprisonment.
-1110 DR a member of the Theurgian Society, Taelos, comes across Thayd's personal journal in the Theurgian Library, which had been preserved magically. Thinking to uncover many powerful artifacts of lost Imaskar, he travels to Toril and discovers the trap holding Thayd captive. The Theurgian then frees Thayd using a spell of Freedom. Over the next 5 years, Thayd and this Taelos work together to rediscover much lost lore and magic of ancient Imaskar.
-1105 DR Thayd recovers the "Skull Staff of the Necromancer" and other powerful Imaskari artifacts from within the fallen city of Inupras.
-1101 DR Thayd and Taelos begin recruiting disgruntled arcanists within the Mulhorandi Empire into a new society which they called "the Theurgist Adepts". Their guiding principle is that knowledge should be sought and that the theocracy should not block research. The Theurgist Adepts are taught much lore on the planes, necromancy, summoning and binding beings, creation of constructs, and powerful elemental assaults.
-1098 DR Thayd makes contact with the mausoleum city, Pholzubbalt, which contains many arcanists who share the same views as the Theurgist Adepts. The two groups begin working together secretly.
-1096 DR the wizard, Ythazz Buvaar, who would later help found the country of Thay, joins the Theurgist Adepts.
-1094 DR The Theurgist Adepts, at the direction of Thayd, build a keyed portal to another prime world filled with religiously zealous orcs (the key required to open it being the "Skull Staff of the Necromancer"). The adepts begin gathering an army of slave workers by invading this world and taking the children in a series of lightning raids. These orc children are trained harshly, and any that show a religious devotion are killed. Adult orcs are either outright slain and re-animated or brought back to be sacrificed to secure the aid of powerful outsiders. No bodies are left behind at the raided settlements and the keyed portal is hidden by powerful illusions and protected by bound baatezu servitors and other powerful spells.
-1087 DR The Theurgist adepts begin open rebellion on a large scale against the Theocracies of Mulhorand and Unther
-1086 DR Ythazz Buvaar leads a successful raid using undead and demons against the armies of Mulhorand. Ythazz becomes a major leader amongst the Theurgist Adepts.
-1084 DR Ythazz Buvaar successfully completes the ritual to become a lich.
-1081 DR The Theurgist adepts are defeated by the armies of Unther and Mulhorand. The incarnations of the Mulan deities specifically work together to hunt down Thayd. In a running fight lasting several days, Thayd slowly works through his many caches of resources until ultimately he attempts a last ditch effort to save his life. Casting a contingent effect that will allow his soul to transfer into the vestige phylactery portion of the Skull Staff of the Necromancer upon death, he hopes his other contingent effects will whisk his body and staff to another safehold where his body will be repaired by simulacrums so that he can then return to it. Unfortunately, the incarnations of the Mulan Gods carry a weirdstone which blocks all magical transportation with them and upon dying Thayd is transferred into the Skull Staff of the Necromancer, and the next day his spirit becomes entrapped as a vestige.
-1077 DR Taelos of the Theurgian Society and other Theurgist Adepts recover the Skull Staff of the Necromancer from the God-Kings of Mulhorand. Using it they plan to raise an army of orc soldiers from the other prime world. Exactly what happens to the Theurgists is unknown, but the orcs discover the portal between worlds and the truth behind the slaughter of their settlements. They also come into possession of the Skull Staff of the Necromancer and gain control of the portal, which becomes known as the "Orcgate".
-1076 DR to -1069 DR the orcgate wars occur.
-1069 DR the orcgate is destroyed, the burst of magical energy causes the Skull Staff of the Necromancer to be transferred to the astral plane where it is lost.... for a time.
-1069 DR Cloaking his lichdom in illusion, Ythazz Buvaar flees to Shaundalar where he trades lost Imaskari books on portal magic in return for a large estate in the countryside.
-1064 DR A two-way portal between the Shandaular, capital of the kingdom of Ashanath and Council Hills, far to the south in the Eastern Shaar, is opened.
-949 DR Ythazz Buvaar becomes allied with the Nentyarch of Tharos and begins aiding the Nars discreetly
-946 DR The armies of the Nentyarch of Tharos destroy Shandaular. The empire of Narfell is formed.
-623 DR Ythazz Buvaar convinces Nentyarch Ulthas "the Darkwing" Orgolath, ruler of the Narfell empire, to assault Mulhorand and Unther. Ulthas is slain in the battle and the crown is passed to his brother, Ulthar "the Darkhorn" Orgolath. Ythazz Buvaar is slain in battle with Osirian priests and his ship is sank. Ythazz's phylactery is captured by sahuagin who use it as blackmail to enslave the lich. Ythazz is trapped beneath the ocean with no access to his spellbooks nor means to create a new one and only those spells that his sahuagin captors see fit to let him memorize at any given time.
-579 DR With the aid of a captured sea elf, Ythazz Buvaar recovers his phylactery and annihilates his sahuagin tormentors.
sometime between -483 and -352 DR (might need research) the Narfellian archmage, Mellifleur, attempts a modified ritual of endless night to become a lich. At the same time, Bane is attempting to infuse his divine power into a banelich. Some kind of divine accident occurs and Mellifleur becomes the god of lichdom. The Netherese archmage Karsus learns of this accident in the coming years and becomes obsessed with the idea of becoming a god through arcane means. Ythazz Buvaar, being a lich, knows of the ascension of this mortal being that he'd considered a menial wizard and spends the next millenia trying to uncover the secrets of the ritual amongst other research.
-342 DR The Netherese Archmage Larloch also hears stories of the "divine accident" that created Mellifleur. He also hears of Karsus' research and flies his enclave, Jiksidur, to Narfell so that he may see if he can uncover any clues to the ritual Mellifleur performed.
-339 DR Karsus' Folly. Many things happen, but amongst them, the lich Ythazz Buvaar is destroyed and his spirit entrapped within his phylactery
717 DR The wizard Velsharoon Jathlet of Halruaa embarks upon an ill fated sea voyage to Zakhara that ends with himself being shipwrecked upon the isle of Sahu, also known as the Isle of the Necromancer King, Uruk Kigal. Being a mage, Velsharoon is enslaved to serve the Necromancer King rather than killed. While there, Velsharoon begins secretly studying the strange arts of the "dread necromancer" which are similar to but different from his own arcane studies.
722 DR Velsharoon escapes the isle of Sahu and returns home to Halruaa.
735 DR Velsharoon and several other disillusioned Halruaan wizards form a clandestine organization that they term "the red wizards" whose stated goal is to study magic that their fellow Halruaans would otherwise suppress. They meet in secret and setup a private library of shared lore.
753 DR Chessentan adventurers uncover the phylactery of Ythazz Buvaar in Thesk and think it an art object and return home with it. Velsharoon, visiting the city on business, recognizes that the object contains the spirit of a powerful being and buys the phylactery with the intention of studying it
755 DR Velsharoon frees Ythazz Buvaar from his phylactery but only after communing with the lich and using his necromantic knowledge to help develop a ritual to transfer his life force from one body to another. Ythazz Buvaar spends the next few years attuning himself to the new changes in the weave since the death of Mystryl. Ythazz joins the red wizards organization in Halruaa
763 DR Velsharoon sets up a second home in Delzimmer and puts a concubine in charge of the household. He takes advantage of his young body and fathers several children upon the woman but spends little time helping raise them. He does however provide a small fortune to them in the form of magic items which are promptly sold in the markets for good profit. Over the next few centuries, the Jathlet family becomes prominent in Delzimmer and maintains polite if distant contact with their progenitor. Velsharoon continues to use his family over the years to fence stolen objects and other nefarious deeds.
770 DR to 800 DR - the red wizards in Halruaa continue to grow. Meanwhile, their delvings move slowly eastward and northward, into old Imaskari, Narfellian, and Raumathari ruins. Some members, including Velsharoon, begun study of the lost Imaskari art of binding. Velsharoon learns that Thayd is a vestige and with Ythazz Buvaar's aid learns to bind him.
818 DR Velsharoon and Ythazz Buvaar agree to aid the drow of T'lindhet by providing spies within Dambrath. In return, they request access to captured spellbooks and books on magical theory, especially necromancy.
827 DR The wizard Omm Hlandrar of Halruaa engages a Red Wizard named Velsharoon in a spectacular magical battle in the skies over the Shaar. The contest ends in a draw
sometime between 827 DR and 922 DR - the red wizards leave Halruaa and move to the priador where they eventually instigate the uprising that forms the country of Thay. Did Ythazz Buvaar contact the mages of Pholzubbalt to join the revolution? Zhengyi joins the red wizards (where he was from, unknown). Jorgmacdon learns of Eltab and his bindings and much Narfellian lore and joins the red wizards.
sometime between 922 DR and 1074 DR Zhengyi and Velsharoon both turn renegade
sometime after that, Velsharoon builds his "Tower Terrible" in Soorenar, pisses off the archmage Halder of Delzimmer for some reason, and becomes an enemy of Szass Tam
1358 DR the Time of Troubles. Mellifleur takes a lich as an avatar but is destroyed and is entrapped within his phylactery. Ao does not free him. It may be that Larloch unwittingly destroyed Mellifleur.
1368 DR Velsharoon becomes a deity utilizing the "Phylactery of Mellifleur" and the "Skull Staff of the Necromancer" and a special ritual which sends Mellifleur's essence to the place where Vestiges go. Velsharoon then enacts a lich creation ritual that pulls the divine energy from the Phylactery of Mellifleur into his person. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 01:16:07
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Homebrew history of Ythazz Buvaar, plus some stats for him as a demi-lich at the end.
Ythazz had been part of the original uprising in Mulhorand in -1087 DR by the Theurgist Adept Thayd (put to death -1081). That uprising had been about the god-kings controlling the studies of the wizards of the Mulhorandi Empire. Thayd was killed, but Ythazz was one of the few surviving conspirators who fled. A few years later the Orcgate opened, which threw Mulhorand into yet another conflict (whether Ythazz had something to do with the Orcgate opening is doubtful due to his relative power at the time, however there are rumors that escaped “Thaydists” were involved in the opening of the Orcgates).
After the Orcgate wars, the country of Narfell formed when refugee mercenaries from the orcgate wars returned home. The Narfellians were similar in belief to the followers of Thayd that magical research should be allowed to take its own course. While many of the Narfellians turned to the arts of conjuration and consorting with planar allies for their powers, others turned to the black arts of necromancy. This proved the perfect environment for the young lich, Ythazz, and he gathered a group of like minded spellcasters amongst the Nars. Ythazz was able to secure a small realm for himself along the coast of what is modern day Thesk, from which he trained apprentices in the arts of magical warfare to face off against their enemies in nearby Raumathar. The next few centuries passed in relative peace, with Ythazz spending much time researching and experimenting upon captured subjects to see what new monstrosities he could make. After a time, as with all megalomaniacs, he began to think he was undefeatable, and he convinced his fellow Narfellians that the path to greatness lay in seizing the weakened empires of Mulhorand and Unther.
So, the Nars formed a fleet of ships with the intention of sailing down and capturing the coast of Mulhorand and Unther and from there launching attacks upon the newly formed Raumathari city of Kensten. Unfortunately, the Nars had overestimated the combined power of the elder empires, and the fleet of Narfell never even made landfall. Ythazz was destroyed by the priests of Osiris in a fierce spellbattle aboard his own capital ship. The lich’s phylactery sank below the waves, where it was captured by a powerful sahuagin priest. Without his spellbooks, Ythazz was incapable of challenging the sahuagin to recover his soul’s repository. As a result the sahuagin put the lich into service to his tribe creating magic items that they could use or trade to surface worlders. In return, Ythazz was given access to select spells to study that had been recovered from surface world raids. Over time, however, Ythazz was secretly able to gather an intact spellbook, and using it he was able to find and reclaim his phylactery and escape.
Almost half a century had passed before Ythazz had once again returned to the surface world. He returned to Narfell, only to find that one of his enemy’s apprentices, an upstart named Mellifleur, had laid claim to his tower and all of his possessions. What was worse was that Ythazz recognized that this apprentice’s power rivaled his own, especially without access to the centuries of compiled research which he had left behind for security. So, Ythazz set about rebuilding once again, performing raids against both the Raumathari battlemages and Narfellian Demonbinders in order to recover items of art and books of lore.
Despite being a lich, Ythazz was not a master of necromancy, so he never understood the accident that occurred to Mellifleur a century later. However, being a lich, he quickly understood that one of his former compatriots had suddenly ascended into godhood when he discovered that Mellifleur had become the Lord of Liches. Ythazz, already having disdane for the gods because of his time with Thayd, was repulsed by this idea even further because he had held Mellifleur in contempt. The lord of Liches success galled Ythazz, and he spent the next two centuries and vast sums of money trying to uncover the mysteries behind the ritual. Yet for all his efforts, he found himself none the wiser as to what had been the lynchpin to Mellifleur’s ascension. Perhaps with more time, he might have been able to understand it, but time was not on his side. Karsus’ Folly changed the way magic worked throughout the entire world, and Ythazz found his body destroyed in a conflagration of suddenly released magics. Ythazz found himself entrapped in his own phylactery, and he could not escape.
Nearly a millennia passed before his phylactery was recovered by Chessentan adventurers who didn’t recognize it for what it truly was. Selling the phylactery as an art object, the phylactery came into the hands of a southern necromancer by the name of Velsharoon. The necromancer recognized the “art object” for its true nature, and he sought to unlock its mysteries, eventually succeeding. Ythazz found himself free and indebted to Velsharoon. In gratitude, he offered to teach Velsharoon lost mysteries of the art, and in return the necromancer would educate Ythazz in the more modern magical advances as well as the changes in the world.
While he had been entrapped, the world had changed much. The mystical empire of Netheril had fallen, and from its ashes Halruaa had been born in the untamed lands of the south. The great realms of Narfell and Raumathar had mutually fallen, and the empire of Mulhorand had seen a resurgence with the recovery of Raumathari lands. Ythazz found that Mystra had changed the way magic worked following Karsus’ Folly, and thus many of his great secrets were lost to time. Ythazz felt a need to discover and test the thresholds of the art; and he found a kindred spirit within Velsharoon.
The two great mages formed a secret society of like minded researchers who would test the dark arts, gathering to their banner those Halruaan and Mulan mages who chafed under the strictures of their society. They sought the power of their Netherese ancestors, for they would be masters of the world again. Calling themselves “red wizards”, whether for their focus on blood, war, or just boldness, is unknown now. What is known is that they performed experimental atrocities that sickened their fellow Halruaan elders when they discovered them. There were minor scuffles that occurred, but the final straw culminated in 827 DR when Omm Hlandrar brought the fight to Velsharoon in fierce spellbattle above the plains of the Shaar. The battle ended in a draw, but Ythazz and Velsharoon decided it was best to move to more secure surroundings.
The two archmages, along with the remainder of their red wizards, moved to the Priador, a section of Mulhorand which had previously been held variously by Narfellians and Raumatharans. Needless to say, it was a portion of the empire bubbling with rebellion. Ythazz and Velsharoon formed alliances with several new Mulan allies such as the conjurer Jorgmacdon Odesseiron and the Patriarch of the Tam Family. Working from the shadows, through their lesser red wizards, they slowly gathered disaffected Mulan mages from throughout the old empires. Velsharoon worked his way into the government by seizing the body of a young Osirian priest, working as a spy from within.
It was in 922 DR that Ythazz and his red wizards truly began to work against the Mulhorandi, staging an uprising in the Priador’s capital city of Delhumide. 2002 years after the death of Thayd, Ythazz had finally raised up enough power to strike against the church of Mulhorand with the help of his fellow red wizards. The war was quick, ended in the battle of Thazalhar when the red wizard Jorgmacdon did what the Narfellian conjurers had failed to do, summoning and controlling the demon lord Eltab. The red wizards named the country Thay in honor of the long dead "hero" of old and declared that they would not be led by the gods, but by the art of man.
Of course, Ythazz had been prepared for the assault and the destruction. He was not at all prepared for the rebuilding and consolidation required afterwards. Initially, peace ruled as each mage setup their own demesne amongst the conquered land. But this calm was soon replaced by occasional magical assaults, as each mage sought to eliminate their rivals. Ythazz recognized that order must be attained, and he joined with his fellow archmages to strike out against those who would stand against combined rule. He also recognized that his former comrade Velsharoon was now set to usurp his throne from him, and that Velsharoon had gathered his own allies. But, Ythazz’s allies proved to strong and Velsharoon was eventually forced to leave Thay as a consequence of rising up against his fellow red wizards. In the end, Ythazz and his fellows won out, and the council of Zulkirs was formed.
Having won out against the God-Kings, Ythazz turned once again to his researches. Eventually, he discovered the secret to attaining a higher level of lichdom, transforming himself into a demilich. However, in his time spent researching, Ythazz had committed a grievous error. He had quit watching his underlings.
Ythazz still doesn’t know who sent the golem to entrap his skull within the globe of arandur with its magic-sucking interior. Nor did he know where they transported to afterwards until recently, when the welds on the exterior of the arandur globe began to finally crack. Unfortunately, he finds himself in an area of dead magic, surrounded by numerous constructs, and enclosed within an arandur globe that is attached to a metallic clamp to the floor. Except for a few spells which he has magically “scribed” within the gems replacing his teeth, he is also without his spells. His original phylactery has been destroyed, leaving him with only the soul gems comprising his demi-lich body. However, he is not without hope. The foulness of his presence draws undead to his general area. Most are destroyed for drawing too near. However, some are intelligent enough that they have gleaned some idea of what awaits ahead. Working as his servants, they seek someone who can help them free “the dark one” from his prison, and Ythazz waits for the day that they succeed.
Ythazz Buvarr, Male Human, Mulan Wiz17/RedWiz10: CR 35; Medium Undead ; HD 17d12(Wizard) , 10d12(Red Wizard) ; hp 182; Init +3; Spd 0; AC:25 (Flatfooted:24 Touch:16); Atk +12/7 base melee, +17/12 base ranged; SA: Fear Aura (Su) (DC , Paralyzing Touch (Su) , Trap the soul (Su) ,
Spell-like Abilities Planar Ally, Greater 2/day, Death Knell 27 At Will , Summon Monster I-IX At Will , Alter Self At Will , Telekinesis At Will , Dispel Magic, Greater At Will , Weird At Will , Enervation At Will , Create Undead At Will , Create Greater Undead At Will , Astral Projection At Will , Harm At Will ; SQ: Darkvision (Ex): 60 ft., Immunity: Death Effects (Ex), Immunity: Energy Drain (Ex), Immunity: Ability Drain (Ex), Immunity: Critical hits (Ex), Immunity: Stun (Ex), Immunity: Fortitude Save-Based Attacks (Ex), Immunity: Paralysis (Ex), Immunity: Reincarnate (Ex), Immunity: Raise Dead (Ex), Immunity: Sleep Effects (Ex), Immunity: Poison (Ex), Resistance: Turn (Ex): +4, Immunity: Death from Massive Damage (Ex), Damage Reduction (Su): 15/Bludgeoning and Magic, Immunity: Ability Damage (Physical Scores), Immunity: Polymorph (Ex), Racial Traits: Undead, Immunity: Cold (Ex), Immunity: Nonlethal Damage (Ex), Immunity: Electricity (Ex), Immunity: Disease (Ex), Immunity: Mind-Affecting Attacks (Ex), Resistance: Sonic (Ex): 20, Immunity: Magic (Ex), Cannot be raised; resurrection works if willing, Immunity: Ability Damage (Ex), Resistance: Acid (Ex): 20, Immunity: Subdual damage, Resistance: Fire (Ex): 20, Phylactery Transference (Su), Perfect Automatic Still Spell (Ex), Immunity: Necromancy (Ex), Negative Energy Heals (Ex), Turn resistance (Ex) +20; AL CE; SV Fort +10, Ref +13, Will +22; STR 6, DEX 16, CON --, INT 47, WIS 25, CHA 39.
Skills: Bluff +44, Concentration +30, Craft (Alchemy) +31, Craft (Calligraphy) +26, Craft (Gemcutting) +21, Craft (Poisonmaking) +23, Craft (Siege Engine) +21, Decipher Script +38, Disguise +19, Gather Information +19, Hide +34, Intimidate +46, Knowledge (Arcana) +48, Knowledge (Dragonkind) +23, Knowledge (Dreams) +19, Knowledge (Forbidden Lore) +23, Knowledge (Geography) +19, Knowledge (History) +38, Knowledge (Illithid Lore) +19, Knowledge (Local - Aglarond) +19, Knowledge (Local - Amn) +19, Knowledge (Local - Anauroch) +19, Knowledge (Local - Calimshan) +19, Knowledge (Local - Chessenta) +19, Knowledge (Local - Cormyr) +19, Knowledge (Local - Damara) +19, Knowledge (Local - Dragon Coast) +19, Knowledge (Local - Elf, Drow) +19, Knowledge (Local - Elf, Moon) +19, Knowledge (Local - Elf, Star) +19, Knowledge (Local - Elf, Sun) +19, Knowledge (Local - Gnoll) +19, Knowledge (Local - Great Dale) +19, Knowledge (Local - Great Glacier) +19, Knowledge (Local - Halruaa) +28, Knowledge (Local - High Forest) +19, Knowledge (Local - Hordelands) +19, Knowledge (Local - Impiltur) +19, Knowledge (Local - Moonsea) +19, Knowledge (Local - Mulhorand) +23, Knowledge (Local - Narfell) +28, Knowledge (Local - Nelanther Isles) +19, Knowledge (Local - Orc) +19, Knowledge (Local - Rashemen) +19, Knowledge (Local - Sembia) +19, Knowledge (Local - Tethyr) +19, Knowledge (Local - Thay) +28, Knowledge (Local - The North) +19, Knowledge (Local - The Sharr) +19, Knowledge (Local - Thesk) +19, Knowledge (Local - Underdark) +24, Knowledge (Local - Unther) +19, Knowledge (Local - Vaasa) +19, Knowledge (Local - Vihon Reach) +19, Knowledge (Local - Waterdeep) +19, Knowledge (Local - Western Heartlands) +19, Knowledge (Local - Wizards` Reach) +19, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) +19, Knowledge (Psionics) +19, Knowledge (Religion) +28, Knowledge (Tactics) +23, Knowledge (The Planes) +28, Knowledge (War) +19, Listen +35, Move Silently +34, Profession (Apothecary) +8, Profession (Astrologer) +8, Profession (Bookkeeper) +8, Profession (Herbalist) +8, Profession (Lawyer) +8, Profession (Mortician) +8, Profession (Sailor) +8, Profession (Scribe) +8, Profession (Siege Engineer) +8, Profession (Tanner) +8, Profession (Torturer) +8, Search +46, Sense Motive +35, Speak Language +6, Spellcraft +90, Spot +35, Use Magic Device +24.
Feats: Automatic Quicken Spell, Automatic Still Spell, Black Lore of Moil, Blinding Speed, Corpsecrafter, Craft Wondrous Item, Destruction Retribution, Enervate Spell, Epic Spellcasting, Eschew Materials, Fell Animate, Improved Metamagic, Improved Spell Capacity: Wizard (10th), Scribe Scroll, Silent Spell, Spell Focus: Evocation, Spell Focus: Necromancy, Tattoo Focus, Tenacious Magic (ELH version), Widen Spell.
Spells Prepared (Wiz 4/9/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/4): .
Possessions:
Magic: Wondrous: Headband of Intellect +6 (36,000 gp); Wondrous: Cloak of Charisma |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 04:18:56
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I postulated in my musings on the Covenant that their battle with the Red Wizards provided the catalyst for the quasi-unification of that group and was the impetus for the establishment of the Zulkirate.
-- George Krashos
Interesting.
Was this quasi-unification a unanimous decision among the members of the soon-to-be Zulkirate... or did you postulate some room for a few detractors-of-the-unification-plan/hold-out Red Wizards? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 06:13:33
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My old "Burning Tome" fire magic DRAGON Magazine submission that got rejected referred to the wizard Salassar who was a supporter of the Zulkirate and was slain by Red Wizards who did not support the formation of that body. The frontpiece flavour quote for that submission was as follows:
"... and so it was that the Red Wizard Salassar perished at the hands of
those of his brethren who opposed the newly formed Council of Zulkirs. Upon
his death, much of his Art passed to that fey conclave and formed the
foundation of the thayvian School of Evocation. Included in this legacy were
many unique fire magics crafted by Salassar a dozen winters before Ahghairon
became Lord of Waterdeep. These spells were collected in what was to become
known as the "Burning Tome", a libram of great value to the zulkirs of Thay
and yet lost by them only a handful of years after they had crushed all
opposition to their rule."
Arandir of Candlekeep
"Art in the East: the Magery of Aglarond, Rashemen and Thay"
Year of the Tankard (1370 DR)
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 02 Apr 2014 06:14:07 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 06:29:53
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Here's some pre-history that I had kind of come up with at one point
<SNIP>
1368 DR Velsharoon becomes a deity utilizing the "Phylactery of Mellifleur" and the "Skull Staff of the Necromancer" and a special ritual which sends Mellifleur's essence to the place where Vestiges go. Velsharoon then enacts a lich creation ritual that pulls the divine energy from the Phylactery of Mellifleur into his person.
I'm not sure this last entry works given that the original reference to Velsharoon in Polyhedron #55 talked about him learning the ritual to become a god from Talos, who used him up until he managed to break free of that deity's hold on his divine power.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1588 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 08:05:18
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| I went with the idea that Velsharoon refined his studies into the nature of negative energy rather than bog-standard undead stuff. He has a pretty generic level breakdown, but has a lot of unique special qualities. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 09:05:56
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Well organising the secret sects based on schools of magic seemed a bit forced to me. A group of people would band together based upon ideals rather than what school of magic they practiced (admittedly the two usually coincide, but not always).
I did choose Thay'd as a priest/wizard for a number of reasons. First is him being labelled as a theurgist which according to a number of different sources implies both divine and arcane magic. Secondly he was a Mulhorandi (since Thay did not exist) and all their wizards are controlled by the church of Thoth (they must all study at his temples). So it stands to reason that a number of wizards also train as priests and so acquire the term theurgist adept.
Now at some point Thayd must have grown tired of being controlled by the priesthood and desired freedom to study magic as he saw fit. The rebellion happened and he was killed and i think it quite possible that either he was transformed into a vestige by his followers or cursed by the Mulhorandi somehow that had an added benefit of making him a vestige.
Now i did just pick Elminster at random as the teacher of binding Thayd to the red wizards but only because binders and pact magic is so rare that we have few if no examples of anyone studying or using it in the realms. So rather than have random people discover and rediscover it's secrets over and over again down the ages, it stands to reason that one of the most powerful mages on Faerun would have a book or two about it. So for example a wizard named Llahcog approaches a number of fledgling red wizards who he knows are not yet wholly indoctrinated into the evil ideology. He claims to know great secrets about the origins of Thay and ancient powerful magics. The red wizards attack him as he expects and he perishes in a cloud of smoke, disintegrated by the many spells of the wizards (really he just teleports awa). He leaves behind a number of tomes that detail the rudiments of binding vestiges and an ancient diary written by Thay himself with amendments by his followers after his death that detail the location of his execution and curse and therefore the place to bind him. And hey presto you have an order backed by Thayd but created by Elminster (Llahcog is Gochall backwards). An order that is dedicated to preserving Thay in its original vision as a nation devoted to magical research (not conquering the world).
Anyhows, if Ythazz Buvarr was from Halruaa, along with Velsharoon, and Zhengyi, then they are all likely to be worshippers of Mystra, and specialists in a number of different magical areas (Velsharoon is necromancy), Zhengyi and Ythazz could be anything, and their class is not really important. What is important is their desire to create a nation of magic users like Halruaa. As to why they left, maybe they wanted a land without restriction (like Nimbral who felt that illusionists were discriminated against), these red wizards wanted the freedom to perform magical research on any subject, with nothing being out of bounds.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1588 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 09:08:00
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| Zhengyi ended up serving Orcus, and given Velsharoon's current antipathy for Mystra it's unlikely that he was a Mystaran. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 09:26:43
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So Ythazz Buvarr and his faction (the Devoted of Mystra), the Narfelli Binders, the Raumathari Battlemages, and the various churches of faiths in and around the Wizard's Reach all band together to battle Mulhorand and create this nation of Thay in 922 DR.
They succeed largely thanks to the efforts of the Narfelli Binders which become the ascendant faction in Thay and they begin on a crusade of conquest and expansion (war against Rashemen in 936 DR).
In 957 Thay and the Narfelli Binders interfere with the covenant by transporting a horde of orcs to various places across Faerun.
The Covenant begin to subtly work against Thay from the inside. Aganazzar posing as the red wizard Salassar, unearths a number of ancient untheric caches and helps the red wizards develop much of their fire magic spells. Attracting many follows he creates a new cabal The Order of the Black Flame which becomes natural allies with the Raumathari Battlemages whose ancient traditions complement much of this new order.
Invigourated the isolationist groups (Order of the Black Flame and the Raumathari Battlemages) begin to combat the Narfelli Demonbinders and a wizard civil war threatens to erupt as magic user battles magic user in Thay.
In the end a number of the secret cabals (including the Devoted of Mystra and Thayd's Order) band together to force the two warring parties to cease hostilities. A new government is formed; the Zulkirate, where the nation will be ruled by magic users, one for each school of magic, elected by the ruling Red Wizards (backed by the secret cabals).
The Zulkirate is formed but is not initially popular, many of the first Zulkirs perish from assassination attempts and assaults by those who do not support the new regime; most notably the various faiths in Thay who feel they have been ignored. Salassar the Zulkir of Evocation is assassinated by one such renegade wizard (although he actually survives; fakes his death, and returns to Neverwinter as Aganazzar)
The Zulkirate turns anti religion, especially against the priests of Mystra who are most vocal and combative in their desire to have a say in the Zulkirate. Ythazz Buvaar; the first Zulkir, a devoted of Mystra, and one of those who envisioned the Zulkirate and Thay is forced to flee office and hides in the catacombs of Bezantur. His other supporters and members of the Devoted of Mystra (such as Zhengyi and Velsharoon) are forced to flee Thay or go underground.
Shortly after all insurrection has been quashed, it is discovered who the real identity of Salassar is and he is tracked to Neverwinter and brutally murdered for his meddling in Thayan affairs. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 23:18:15
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Here's some pre-history that I had kind of come up with at one point
<SNIP>
1368 DR Velsharoon becomes a deity utilizing the "Phylactery of Mellifleur" and the "Skull Staff of the Necromancer" and a special ritual which sends Mellifleur's essence to the place where Vestiges go. Velsharoon then enacts a lich creation ritual that pulls the divine energy from the Phylactery of Mellifleur into his person.
I'm not sure this last entry works given that the original reference to Velsharoon in Polyhedron #55 talked about him learning the ritual to become a god from Talos, who used him up until he managed to break free of that deity's hold on his divine power.
-- George Krashos
It works still. He just learned a ritual that required him to acquire the phylactery of Mellifleur and the Skull Staff of the Necromancer. Talos was still involved. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 02:09:18
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The Zulkirate didn't turn anti-religious. The point of the Thayan revolt was freedom to research as they wanted without religion telling them what they could and couldn't do. That's why Kossuth's worship was so popular... because he didn't care. Bane and Myrkul probably got a decent foothold only because their churches were willing to serve alongside the red wizards as the ends served their deities wants just in the establishment of a country doing possibly horrific magical studies (and they were already kind of interloper deities in the area). Thus, the amount of religious aid/influence that was had was minimal. Also, given a choice between Mystra and Azuth, it would seem more believable that Azuthans would have had more influence in the founding of Thay (he's more pragmatic, whereas Mystra worshippers tend to focus more on the "wonder" of magic). Given that "Escalthar the Black Star" is believed to have had some kind of linkage to Azuth by both Elminster and Khelben, this probably makes this more likely as well.
It should also be noted that there were Zulkirs BEFORE there was a Zulkirate. Jorgmacdon was one of these original Zulkirs (I state that because he was "the original Zulkir of Conjuration.... yet the first Zulkir of Conjuration after the forming of the Zulkirate was Tlantros Tulhoond), and these Zulkirs served Thayd. They then ran around trying to control the rest of the red wizards who had survived the revolt. Some of the original Zulkirs may not have even been wizards or even had magical powers, but I feel it best to assume that most were wizards. It was noted from Ed that Thayd was "an undead sentience that possessed people and burned them out". My take on that was that he was a vestige whose binding physically drained the binder somehow as part of the pactmaking, such that most binders couldn't continually bind him every day.... but he enhanced them so much they were willing to take the drain. In this way, those who were still following "Theurgist Adept" practices (aka binders and anima mages and soul weavers) were able to have "Thayd" be all over the country at any given time, essentially riding different binders (in my version, Velsharoon was one such wizard with binding capability) and work with his various local "Zulkirs" that he was using as governors to a degree. What would have essentially broken this down is that wizards decided that they'd rather not have binders sitting at the top of the food chain (even though likely most of Thayd's Zulkirs were wizards), and they started killing off the binders (and thus limited Thayd's ability to interact with the world). In my version, this is why Velsharoon had to flee Thay, and for the common folk this caused the "death" of Thayd.
So, we have two conflicting stories (Ythazz Buvaar leading and Thayd leading) which can be worked through as the founders of the schools of magic governing turning around and rewriting history. However, it should be assumed that both Thayd and Ythazz Buvaar both had heavy involvement in the founding of the country. It also should be noted that Ythazz Buvaar is not listed in Ed's first Zulkirs of the Zulkirate.... but he also never listed a Zulkir of divination (he only lists 7 of the 8). Therefore, it must be assumed that Ythazz took on the mantle of Zulkir of Divination. Perhaps it was through his divinatory work that the binders who were binding Thayd were wiped out.... and knowledge of the pact ritual to bind Thayd was destroyed wherever it was found.
Anyway, the below posted because it definitely delves into the founding, and its from Ed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by The Hooded One
TIYARRA ZULKIRATE (= Of the History/Lore of the Zulkirs)
{Ed Greenwood, 1991}
The zulkirs began as Thayd’s inner circle of trusted “loyals” (in their hearts, most of them were anything but, but only one—Ilkrim Hlannadar, better known to Thayan folklore as “the Dragondevoured,” thanks to Thayd’s swift and ruthless reaction to his treachery—ever dared defy him openly). These “loyals” served the founder of Thay as his personal lieutenants, who led Thayan warbands, acted as his messengers, enforcers, and assassins, and helped keep Thayd the dominant wizard in the northern lands wrested from Mulhorand and Unther, and home to many independent mages of power, until the realm of Thay was consolidated.
Originally there were seven zulkirs, then six and five through battle losses. It was only after the death of Thayd that their numbers became set, and linked to specific “schools” of wizardry.
When Thayd fell, a bitter struggle for power followed, in which scores of ambitious wizards perished. Eventually the survivors, brought to reluctant obedience by threat of being trapped in the “Escalthar’s Everlasting Curse” spell that would shapechange them every few breaths, uncontrollably, for the rest of their lives, met with the wizard Escalthar (who had devised that spell, and cast it upon most of those survivors) atop Laltharr, a bare crag (later blasted to rubble in a spell-duel) in southwestern Thay.
This moot later became known as the Council of the Black Star (after the black star mage-sigil used by Escalthar). At the Council it was agreed that there would eight zulkirs, each of them a master of a school of wizardry: Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation. (Over the years, the zulkirs of Thay have been almost exclusively Thayan, and male humans, but no zulkirate has any formal requirements of residency, race, or gender.)
Outsiders have been told different wild tales about this or that zulkir, or how the ruling structure of Thay came about, but this is—so far as Mystra has confirmed—the truth.
Elminster and Khelben believe they have uncovered evidence that Escalthar—who mysteriously vanished, shortly after the Council, and has never been seen since (though there are many rumors and fear-whispered tales, down the years since, of his being seen by dying Red Wizards or watching crucial events in the unfolding governance of Thay) was either the god Azuth in disguise, or a pawn of Azuth at the time of the Council, but neither Azuth nor Mystra will confirm this. According to the Old Mage, the two deities, whenever asked about such matters, “merely smile.”
Only Szass Tam has held office (formally, “zulkirate,” though this term has been rarely used in the last two centuries) among the zulkirs in any consistent manner since 1300.
The “First Zulkirate” or initial eight zulkirs, appointed at the Council in the autumn of 1030 DR, were:
Hahlomede Teeos (Abjuration): known as “Blackwyrm” for his everpresent tattered black robes and cloaks, that rendered him immune to dragon attacks and made dragons actively avoid him, Teeos loved to act mysterious and to track down lost treasures, old magics, and deceptions, this last sort of hunting quickly making him very unpopular with many Thayans; he became the feared, tireless, and increasingly hated “investigator” of the First Zulkirate
Tlantros Tulhoond (Conjuration): an aloof, private man who feared attack at all times, and was therefore always ready for battle, with schemes and “hanging” spells galore ready as both defenses and deterrents, in addition to the monsters he could magically whisk from elsewhere to his side; a sophisticated lover of music, wines, subtle behaviour, and “refinement” who opposed Thay’s ever-greater reliance on slavery and the plundering of its resources at the expense of rejuvenating the land (he hated mines and quarries, preferring that Thay take what it needed from other lands by conquest or magical seizure and transportation)
Zarhandro Laeluth (Enchantment): a fat, jovial man who deceived his fellow zulkirs—and everyone else he had any contact with, in life—as much as possible; made frequent use of doubles to make it appear that he was in one place while he was busy in another; often bubbled with gleeful laughter as he tricked or slew or took cruel revenges; trusted by very few, and feared by many, especially tharchions (whom he was known to have personally slain scores of, over the unfolding years, many by torture); a hedonist who loved exotic foods and long, gluttonous feasts
Dlueae Sharshyndree (Evocation): the first female zulkir, Dlueae [pronounced “Dul-LOO-ay”] was a curvaceous woman with a melodious voice and alluring walk—who also had a coarse-featured and mannish face; she “had to shave like a man” and had acquired several disfiguring facial scars in her youthful adventuring career, and as a result customarily hid her face behind full head masks, which she sometimes augmented with a warrior’s battle-helm; a bold and calm battle-leader and a good tactician, she served Thay well in warfare and built ever-increasing influence over her fellow zulkirs, both by taking them as lovers and befriending them with aid and assistance for their personal projects, and by often stating and refining successful policies for Thay that she got her fellow zulkirs to support (and that they therefore took pride in); a mediator and peacemaker among her fellow zulkirs
Yaerind Mahl (Illusion): an inscrutable man of few words and fewer direct answers, stances, or clear statements, who customarily cloaked his true appearance with magical disguises, and preferred to spend much time roaming Thay appearing as various creatures, to spy and learn (and sometimes strike down treachery—which he widely defined as “anything he disliked”—where and when he found it); was the first zulkir to force many apprentices and dupes to pretend to be him, so they perished in attacks meant to slay him, so he could strike down those who’d thought they’d killed the Zulkir of Illusion; possessed a pair of golden lions (figurines of wondrous power) that hunted and slew at his command
Tarabbas Mroound (Necromancy): a tall, sardonic, cadaver-thin man who “disappeared into bones” at will, and apparently did so permanently, soon after being named zulkir, apparently of his own volition and not due to any attack launched by a rival or would-be successor; many Thayan night-rumors insist he lives on, still, watching over Thay and covertly bringing misfortune to those he dislikes, whilst aiding those he favors
Kulvur Naraelond (Transmutation): a sly, witty, smart-mouthed trickster of a man, handsome and acrobatic, who was trusted by few; most men loathed him, and most women found him irresistible; a hedonist who seemingly cared more for enjoyment of food, drink, lovemaking, and diversions—even elaborate pranks—more than anything else in life; made many foes very quickly, and did not last long in office (or life)
The only complete roster of the zulkirate known to outlanders (non-Thayans) after the First Zulkirate but before the 1350s DR, comes from an anonymous slave’s account, TWELVE WINTERS UNDER THE LASH, that was smuggled out of Thay in late 1300 DR. It gives a partial roster of the zulkirate, as follows:
Eldryn Lammaraster (Abjuration): an old, bitter, grim pessimist who saw treachery and would-be successors around ever corner, in every shadow, and behind every door—and prepared himself accordingly, between manyfold layers of defensive magics; his specialty was spells—many of which died with him—that had nasty counter-attacks built into them, triggered by their defensive activation and not by the caster having to trigger them
Balineth Skroun (Conjuration): a toad-faced, forbidding man who used intimidation and prepared “stage tricks” of magic to cow many a rival or defiant underling, Skroun hid well his deep love of Thay and his real loyalty to his fellow zulkirs; over time, became as trusted by his fellow zulkirs as any holder of a zulkirate has ever been, and with good reason; a true “team player” who looked ahead and acted for the betterment of Thay, beneath a surly public mask
Iyrith Telgahlagar (Enchantment): described as a darkly handsome, bearded man who was urbane, soft-spoken, and a master strategist and diplomat, the most dominant of the zulkirs through his skilled forging of alliances with his fellow zulkirs and among the tharchions and tharchionesses; ruthless in slaying rivals who act against him, often through spells delivered by bats that fly under his direction; once described by a Red Wizard as “Asmodeus among us,” and probably the closest of any individual to being the true ruler of Thay, at the time
Uldreth Korroth (Evocation): a grossly fat, lewd, aggressive man known for having layer upon layer of backup spells and schemes, and for being a jovial friend to all zulkirs, and a cruel, ruthless trickster to tharchions, tharchionesses, and all Thayans of lower station whom he had contact with; enjoyed frequent personal slayings of the “spectacular butchery” sort
Mahlind Yarrr (Transmutation): a short, dark-haired, slender man of very few words, who always dressed in crimson robes and was very efficient and a master of foreseeing or anticipating events, treacheries against him, and likely outcomes, and preparing for them; almost always on the “winning side” in policy disputes among the zulkirs, who made few fierce foes and enriched himself greatly with trade outside Thay involving manipulated agents and dupes, in sales of drugs and gems, and prostitution
So saith Ed. His mention of the 1350s DR of course refers to all the published Realmslore (FR6/DREAMS OF THE RED WIZARDS, RED MAGIC, and everything since) that has made the identities, activities, aims, and roster changes of the zulkirs of that era clear to all interested scribes.
So here you are . . . enjoy!
love to all,
THO
Hi again, all.
Thauramarth, Thayd survived as an undead sentience (perhaps unique; Ed hasn't said) that could possess living bodies (mammals of all sorts), but "burned them out" rapidly (a matter of two tendays at most). He clung to the company of his lieutenants . . . but eventually vanished, either destroyed by one of them or "lost" when a body burned out "under him" when he couldn't reach another to attack it...or for some other reason or cause, that PERHAPS has him lurking to this day, awaiting a chance to rise again...
So saith Ed, paraphrased by me.
love,
THO
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 09:09:20
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Well apart from making everyone a binder or anima mage there is some good stuff here.
So we have Zulkirs in Thayd's time. Then they gradually die off from battle losses and the survivors form the modern zulkirate in 1030 DR.
Tying this into the history from GHoTR. Thayd and his followers (the leaders of whom are called Zulkirs) rebel from Mulhorand in -1087 DR. There are 7 zulkirs so it is possible there were 7 factions then.
They lose 2-3 zulkirs during the battles with Mulhorand and Thayd himself dies but is transformed into some kind of powerful possessing spirit undead creature. He possesses one of his lieutenants (a.k.a a Zulkir) but burns through him and has to possess another and another until all the Zulkirs are gone. Either Mulhorandi priests or the last remaining Zulkir manage to imprison him somewhere (The citadel seems a good place, Delhumide might be better though).
Fastforward 2000 years and the zulkirs of the past are but a long distant memory. Ythazz Buvaar and his followers from Halruaa arrive to kickstart a rebellion and create a country of their own. One interfering old wizard for his own inscrutable aims approaches one or two of their number and leaves with them Thayd's diary. They decide to reform a Zulkirate and rename the country Thay (and a few of them take to binding his vestige). This official formation occurs in 1030 DR and we get the zulkirs Ed listed plus Ythazz Buvarr.
Now comes the messy part. What happens during this revolt. We know it is successful, we know the Red Wizards before 1030 DR are not the same as the Red Wizards after 1030 DR (they were just wizards from Thay before so the Red Wizards must have been an order of wizards in Thay). We also now know that Ythazz Buvarr and his followers get ejected from office somehow (Velsharoon and Zhengyi are both renegade red wizards and Ythazz Buvarr was a Zulkir but he is still alive and no longer a Zulkir and as Szass Tam shows you are a Zulkir for life and death until irrevocably destroyed ergo he abdicated or was exiled). And that there was some opposition to the rule of the Zulkirs. The opposition is unlikely to come from the cabals of wizards since they are represented on the Zulkirate so it must come from elsewhere.
So the reason i put in Thay went anti religion was because the churches of the dark deities (and Kossuth) undoubtedly had a hand in the rebellion against the Zulkirate (Kossuth and Bane have an enormous amount of power in Thay and are well respected by the Red Wizards, everyone else is just tolerated so it stands to reason Kossuth and Bane were involved in the original 922 DR rebellion against Mulhorand), they must be annoyed that they have no representatives on the Zulkirate.
However there is another reason for it. If Ythazz Buvaar and Velsharoon and Zhengyi are all from Halruaa then they would be devout Mystra worshippers. Even better if Ythazz Buvarr was the Zulkir of Divination then we have a reason for him leaving Halrua because it wasnt until the 1300's that divination was a respected school in Halruaa. If the aboves are true it cannot be a coincidence that all the ranking Halruan's in Thay (and there are no Halruan people in Thay now) were ejected from Thay, probably forcibly.
The Halruans would not have been renegades against the Zulkirate since they helped form it and Ythazz was a Zulkir, so the Zulkirate must have turned anti Halruan at some point. The only reason i can think for this is that some of the churches got annoyed at being shut out of the upper levels of power in Thay (despite their contribution to the rebellion) they sided with some of the other cabals that lost out (the narfelli demonbinders perhaps). The Zulkirate put down the rebellion by 1076 DR with much help from the cabal of Red Wizards headed by Salassar (Aganazzar perhaps). Then realising religion can be dangerous they turned on the devout worshippers within their midst, that would only really include the Halruans who are always going to love Mystra and so they have to go renegade as well.
Over time the anti religious bent dies down especially with all the help they receive from Bane and Kossuth, but the anti Mystra thing persists.
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 09:18:12
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Eh, funny it took me so long to realize Ed's description of Thayd ("undead sentience possessing people and burning them out") sounds awfully similar to what we know of Tyranthraxus (named "the Possessing Spirit" and "the Flamed One").
I'll have to check some dates but it may be Tyranthraxus and Thayd are just one and the same and a minion of Jergal that set off the whole Dark Three story, considering Mulhorand and Thay are right next door to Murghom that supposedly is the birth place of Myrkul.
Sorry for the off-topic. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 22:46:40
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Tyranthraxus has unique abilities of possession and transference, and is incorporeal (unless, perhaps, liquid from the Pool of Radiance functions as a sort of corporeal receptacle/anchor for his presence in the Realms) - but he is not undead. He has none of the vulnerabilities of the undead, he apparently does not drain his hosts (that is, they remain as they were when Tyranthraxus transfers to another host). I would say that his telepathy and ESP powers suggest his possession has a psychic/psionic component, and his origins on “the lower planes (which one is not known)“ suggest some sort of domination of his host‘s spirit or aura.
Back to topic - being a Red Wizard does not exclude one from also belonging to another (or, several other) organizations. Reds are a divisive, scheming, ambitious, power-addicted, immoral lot ... particular Reds (even some Zulkirs!) might be leaders or patsies in any number of dark conspiracies. And because of their competitive, secretive, evil nature, some of these organizations (and some of their Red Wizard members) likely manipulate and oppose each other in countless ways even the Reds aren‘t aware of. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 03:42:38
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well apart from making everyone a binder or anima mage there is some good stuff here.
So we have Zulkirs in Thayd's time. Then they gradually die off from battle losses and the survivors form the modern zulkirate in 1030 DR.
Tying this into the history from GHoTR. Thayd and his followers (the leaders of whom are called Zulkirs) rebel from Mulhorand in -1087 DR. There are 7 zulkirs so it is possible there were 7 factions then.
They lose 2-3 zulkirs during the battles with Mulhorand and Thayd himself dies but is transformed into some kind of powerful possessing spirit undead creature. He possesses one of his lieutenants (a.k.a a Zulkir) but burns through him and has to possess another and another until all the Zulkirs are gone. Either Mulhorandi priests or the last remaining Zulkir manage to imprison him somewhere (The citadel seems a good place, Delhumide might be better though).
Fastforward 2000 years and the zulkirs of the past are but a long distant memory. Ythazz Buvaar and his followers from Halruaa arrive to kickstart a rebellion and create a country of their own. One interfering old wizard for his own inscrutable aims approaches one or two of their number and leaves with them Thayd's diary. They decide to reform a Zulkirate and rename the country Thay (and a few of them take to binding his vestige). This official formation occurs in 1030 DR and we get the zulkirs Ed listed plus Ythazz Buvarr.
Now comes the messy part. What happens during this revolt. We know it is successful, we know the Red Wizards before 1030 DR are not the same as the Red Wizards after 1030 DR (they were just wizards from Thay before so the Red Wizards must have been an order of wizards in Thay). We also now know that Ythazz Buvarr and his followers get ejected from office somehow (Velsharoon and Zhengyi are both renegade red wizards and Ythazz Buvarr was a Zulkir but he is still alive and no longer a Zulkir and as Szass Tam shows you are a Zulkir for life and death until irrevocably destroyed ergo he abdicated or was exiled). And that there was some opposition to the rule of the Zulkirs. The opposition is unlikely to come from the cabals of wizards since they are represented on the Zulkirate so it must come from elsewhere.
So the reason i put in Thay went anti religion was because the churches of the dark deities (and Kossuth) undoubtedly had a hand in the rebellion against the Zulkirate (Kossuth and Bane have an enormous amount of power in Thay and are well respected by the Red Wizards, everyone else is just tolerated so it stands to reason Kossuth and Bane were involved in the original 922 DR rebellion against Mulhorand), they must be annoyed that they have no representatives on the Zulkirate.
However there is another reason for it. If Ythazz Buvaar and Velsharoon and Zhengyi are all from Halruaa then they would be devout Mystra worshippers. Even better if Ythazz Buvarr was the Zulkir of Divination then we have a reason for him leaving Halrua because it wasnt until the 1300's that divination was a respected school in Halruaa. If the aboves are true it cannot be a coincidence that all the ranking Halruan's in Thay (and there are no Halruan people in Thay now) were ejected from Thay, probably forcibly.
The Halruans would not have been renegades against the Zulkirate since they helped form it and Ythazz was a Zulkir, so the Zulkirate must have turned anti Halruan at some point. The only reason i can think for this is that some of the churches got annoyed at being shut out of the upper levels of power in Thay (despite their contribution to the rebellion) they sided with some of the other cabals that lost out (the narfelli demonbinders perhaps). The Zulkirate put down the rebellion by 1076 DR with much help from the cabal of Red Wizards headed by Salassar (Aganazzar perhaps). Then realising religion can be dangerous they turned on the devout worshippers within their midst, that would only really include the Halruans who are always going to love Mystra and so they have to go renegade as well.
Over time the anti religious bent dies down especially with all the help they receive from Bane and Kossuth, but the anti Mystra thing persists.
Actually, the only named binder that I've thrown out there is Velsharoon. All others would be NPC's free for development, though I would put a decent number around during the founding of Thay.
I wouldn't put Ythazz or Zhengyi as originating in Halruaa. Since Ythazz becomes a demi-lich, and because becoming a demi-lich implies that he's been a lich for a LONG time, I'd put Ythazz as one of the few actual remaining Theurgist Adepts who served under Thayd (though at that time, probably Ythazz was little more than a fledling lieutenant or somesuch). Therefore, I'd use Ythazz as a key to helping binders discover the secrets of Thayd, only to have him "turn on" his former master whenever he feels that Thayd isn't giving him his proper respect. The other red wizards don't know that he's secreted beneath Bezantur, so my thoughts are someone faked his "death" and entrapped him (possibly the diviner who replaced him?).
For Zhengyi, personally, I'd have him be Narfellian in origin, possibly even of the royal blood of Narfell (a cousin or somesuch possibly), which may even give him some bloodline ties to Orcus. It would help explain why he moved to conquer Vaasa and Damara (and possibly he was planning to expand into the Rawlinswood and capture Dun-Tharos from the Barony of Soravia... he was after all massing lots of goblinoids there). It would also help explain his interest in necromancy and his ties to Orcus.
My personal take on how the Halruaans/Velsharoon got involved is that Ythazz as a lich got involved with them and led them to Thay. Ythazz having been born a Mulan and a Theurgist Adept saw the 2000th anniversary of Thayd's death coming up in 919 DR and he decided to use that to raise awareness amongst his people again that they need not serve the Mulhorandi gods. Now, how many Halruaans were there? I'm thinking a small group of say a dozen or so, but every one of them being an archmage. They probably weren't unified either (i.e. my view here is of Velsharoon being interested in necromancy and pact magics, another Halruaan being a summoner who may have fallen in with the Narfellians, another Halruaan interested in blood magic may have fallen in with the necromancers from Pholzubbalt, another Halruaan who had followed the red wizards into exile because she was a secret Leiran mage-priest spying for Nimbral, another Halruaan who was "rain man -like" and was studying temporal magics, etc....). Therefore, from this standpoint, its easy to see how the Halruaans maybe had strong involvement in the beginning, but they quickly fractured as a group.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 03:56:48
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| Oh, and I'll probably be eviscerated for this next statement, but I'd probably also make Zhengyi a unspecialized wizard/warlock/eldritch theurge (and throw in some suitably necromantic prestige classes) with a pact with Orcus. It might help explain why he was known as the "Witch-King". Sure, it defies all established lore we've seen of him, but the idea of warlocks as they exist now didn't exist in 1e/2e when they developed him. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 08:43:38
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I can go with Zhengyi being Narfelli in origin, it explains his worhsip of Orcus and after the Zulkirate is established and the Narfelli faction loses a lot of power then that would explain his going renegade.
But what reason would we have for Ythazz Buvarr going renegade. He helps create the Zulkirship and then suddenly goes renegade against it makes no sense at all (especially if he was a Zulkir himself). You can only leave the post of Zulkir by being utterly destroyed (or running far far away). If he is a demi lich he would be nigh impossible to destroy (especially if he is over 2000 years old, he would have learned a trick or two) so he would have to voluntarily relinquish the position of Zulkir and flee the country which also doesnt make sense given his level of power if he were a demi lich.
Also demi liches do not make great figure heads since they typically lack a corporeal body. A talking skull with gems in his eyes probably would have been noted in the history excerpt.
If Ythazz was a demi lich why would he even bother with Thayd. Demi liches are among some of the most powerful creatures on the planet and to my mind moreso than vestiges.
And finally the means of becoming a demi lich are not necessarily down to time alone. Shoon VII went from lich to demi lich in less than 1000 years and the means of his transformation are unknown and could have in fact been an accident. The epic handbook describes the creation of soul gems which implies a deliberate act to transform into a demi lich.
So it is entirely possible (and just as implausible) that Ythazz Buvarr was alive in 922 DR, became a lich sometime after and by 1360 DR was a demi lich.
Also if we give Zhengyi, Ythazz, and Velsharoon different origins and allegiances we then have to come up with plausible explanations for them going renegade against the very establishment they helped create, when one of them was most likely in a ruling position on that establishment.
Ythazz could have been a lich in 922 and like Szass no one may have noticed, and that may have been one of the reasons for him leaving wherever he is from (I dont recall any Halruan liches so maybe they dont like lichdom there). But if we make them devout worshippers of Mystra then we have a fairly simple explanation as to why they went "renegade" and had to leave Thay. |
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Thay 1370's
