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dahksinol
Acolyte
Philippines
4 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 05:23:07
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The title says it all.
They've killed five dragons without breaking a sweat, cut a bloody path through an army of giants without the need of their cleric, and have tricked and outsmart my 'Tucker's Kobolds' with only one minor casualty that was more a victim of bad luck than any real difficulty. I am literally running out of things to throw at my players. Traps can't evade their rogue/avenger, orc champions of gruumsh can't stand up to their paladins, and even a dracolich was more of a nuisance to them. And they just got their paragon paths.
I'm looking for ways to keep them challenged, to keep them on their toes. Any suggestions?
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 05:42:22
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What edition rules?
If they can whack a dragon no problem, break the rules and give it the spellcasting powers of a wizard too. How are their magic weapons? Really powerful? Too many? Use illusions and minor encounters to get them to waste resources and spells and limit rests. There's always horrible spells like Disjunction to turn those six wands of fireballs and sword +6 of monster slaying into whittled sticks and a dull metal letter opener if things are extremely unbalanced. And hey that'd be a great way to introduce a new long-term villain the PC's can really hate. Play your monsters ruthlessly.
I'm not much help with 4th edition and my group switched from pathfinder rules to 2E before they were 3rd level if I recall, so my experience there is limited too. I'll agree though, 5 dragons and mulching an army of giants doesn't sound right at 11th level.
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dahksinol
Acolyte
Philippines
4 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 05:59:57
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We're playing 4th edition, and I've been using rules from the Forgotten Realms and Eberron Campaign Guides for most of my campaigns.
I've been thinking of using Rust Monsters in my campaign, but the sheer number of arcanists (four out of eight are spellcasters) in the party would've made it next to useless, as the only thing it'd be a threat to is the Paladin and the Fighter.
Thanks for the suggestions, I will try them out on my next session with my group. I have a good feeling about this.
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Also: A recurring villain would be nice, if it weren't that my players insist on repeatedly using bigby's crushing hand or other immobilize spells, and then spamming the crap out of fireball, eldritch rain, and bless weapon to deal 100 plus damage in one round. Single target threats are literally just these huge bags of meat to be butchered and large group enemies are easily crushed by their blast and burst spells and abilities. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 06:17:33
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Oh. I was going to say a party of level 11 characters should not be able to do any of that, but you're playing 4e. So I dunno, because I play 3.5. Maybe all the monsters are pushovers in 4e.
It does sound like your situation can be explained simply, though: your players are capitalizing on their strengths more effectively than your monsters. I don't know how to fix that in 4e since WotC apparently removed the advancement mechanic which makes customizing monsters a breeze in 3e. But I can suggest this: try building your monsters as if they're characters that you're going to play as PCs in somebody else's game. The "monsters" they're going to face are the PCs.
As DM, you have access to your players' character sheets... review them and keep their strengths and weaknesses in mind when you're building your monsters for the next adventure. If a champion you come up with has no chance of surviving a fight with the PCs, then keep working on it; tweak it until it can work.
Remember that the rules are guidelines. Just because an orc has X hit dice and Y hit points in the book... so what? Your orcs can be tougher.
The point is not to build your monsters around the PCs' vulnerabilities... that would be unfair. But the opposite is unfair too; if your monsters are dealing mostly fire damage and the PCs can make themselves immune to fire damage, then your monsters are using the wrong tactics/items, right?
Or if it's just a matter of the monsters having insufficient hit points, you can fix that by raising their armor class, giving them equipment/magic which gives them damage reduction, and giving them max hit points. If your humanoid monsters aren't using poison... why not? Remember curses too; they can lower the PCs' ability scores, which affects their mobility and might prevent them from charging or escaping. Humanoid shamans and undead love casting curses!
Instead of just dealing damage, sometimes the PCs should be tripped/disarmed/immobilized and removed from the fight for a round or three. PCs should occasionally be knocked out rather than just smashed over the head for 8 points of damage. Every once in a while, the party should lose a member... not just to death, but to "kidnapping" during combat... the monsters then retreat into their dens (too confined for the PCs to fight in) leaving the PCs with a difficult choice. They can pay an uncomfortably large ransom, or they can perform morally-reprehensible favors for the monsters, or they can leave their companion behind (even more evil) and find a new party member.
As far as skill checks go, use circumstances to neutralize some the PCs' advantages: traps should be significantly harder to detect/disarm in darkness, under water, under thick dust, under rubble, behind spider webs, etc... the published DC can be looked at as a "best case scenario" for the PC. As DM you can make sure that some (not all) of the traps are found in worse case scenarios.
Good luck! |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 06:22:24
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Doesn't WotC assume 4 PCs in a party? If you have 8 PCs, that's probably going to totally mess things up.
I also shy away from using rust monsters as a regular monster. Once in a very great while is fine, because they are a "naturally" occurring monster, but if the warriors are constantly losing their weapons and armor because of rust monsters, it's going to seem like you're doing it deliberately just to screw them over. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 08:10:20
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If your characters have done what you say...then their fame will have spread yes?
You don't have to throw monsters at players...you can throw other characters at players. If the party is famous for being able to do certain things...build a counter-party that is capable of thwarting that tactic. The party being famous for working together dictates a dirty twist on your part: The Attack on a Lone Character.
Badguys don't just sit around waiting to be the next on a hit list that your party has made...turn your party into the hunted if they are so famous. Baddies are always on the lookout for targets to acquire accumulated items of power!
Your 8 level 11 players making a run on the badguys...fine...have them become wanted by bounty hunters because folks are setting bounties on their heads.
Sometimes the reward of fame is actually infamy...just because the party thinks they are the good guys, it doesn't mean everyone else thinks they are good guys. If they are stomping giants, the Giants might offer a heavy reward for their heads! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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dahksinol
Acolyte
Philippines
4 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 09:43:54
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| Those all seamlessly fit well with the new scenarios I've prepared for our next session. I'll try them out and see how it goes. Thanks! |
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Fendrikor
Learned Scribe
Australia
189 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 16:18:45
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Are you scaleing the encounters for a Party of 4 or a Party of 8?
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'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup' |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 18:27:55
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| Here's the deal. Do your party members spend every minute together? I mean do they all take a shit together? Do they all bathe together? Do they all live together in their off time? So, what happens when an enemy who survived (or just someone who has noted their fortune) decides to catch one or two of them when they're separated from the rest of the party outside of an "adventure"? Some will say that's a mean thing to do. Yet, the PC's do it to NPC's all the time. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 18:38:30
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Also, probably pointing out the obvious here, but no one says your level 11 PCs need to fight enemies of levels close to them. If you figure a good in-game reason, get a few epics or near-epics on their tails. If they can beat them, it'll probably be a tough challenge, not a walk in the park. And if they can't, maybe the enemies can offer quarter in exchange for something.
That's just me (well more than just me, but you get it), but the whole 4e obsession with balance makes no sense in a dynamic world. And hey, players will throw the balance out of the whack, like your guys prove, anyhow. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 29 Mar 2014 18:39:41 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 23:37:41
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Have your PCs encounter a hostile party which consists of a similar (or perhaps entirely different?) mix of character races, classes, and builds. Needless to say, such a party should be equipped with their own magics, strategies, and contigencies. And they may have cheap scummy objectives - like focussing on capturing a single PC alive for torture/ransom, then escaping - which differ from the PC party's usual methods (confident PCs almost universally assume that everything put in their face must be a fight to the death).
Such a party could be out to discredit the PCs. Procure certain items/spells from their possession. They might be competing for a particular quest reward, or active opposition hired by an antagonist. They should be as ruthless as your PCs yet may not be as restrained by issues of law, morality, or alignment.
Another option is treachery and betrayal. A trusted NPC ally who turns against them at the (planned) worst possible moment, with the worst possible consequences. Get 'em to start using up all the spells and charges they've been hoarding, force 'em to just barely escape through use of last-measure contingencies ... then hit 'em again, where it really hurts, while they're reeling.
You must be careful to not allow your PCs to easily defeat such adversaries and claim their possessions - this just inflates your problems by doubling the power at their command! PCs may whine at the unfairness of it all, but with great power comes great threats, reputation and riches don't just attract fawning friends and allies. Beware that some players will hold grudges, remaining sullen and grumbling forever, but most will eventually return to their cheerful dispositions if they learn that their "unbeatable, cheating, custom-tailored" foes/assassins were not punitive reprisals but were instead part of larger and deeper plots. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2014 : 04:30:52
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I am reminded of a conversation I once had, where someone was bragging about how his level 10 paladin would easily kill a dragon... The guy got the most puzzled expression on his face when I responded with "Not if I was running the dragon."
Even without the idea of adding levels to critters -- which is a wonderful idea, by the way -- there are some critters which should be very tough, even for levels higher than 11.
A dragon, for example, has incredibly tough armor, long range attacks in the form of breath weapons, extreme mobility (flying!), quite potent physical attacks if they are forced into melee, and spells on top of all that. Unless a party manages to outwit a dragon -- a tough prospect, given that many dragons are smarter than humans -- the dragon should be able to stay aloft and pretty much pick off those puny adventurers at leisure. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2014 : 13:32:14
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Not everything has to come out of a book.
Throw an illithid rust monster at them.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2014 : 15:22:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Throw an illithid rust monster at them.
This gives new meaning to people saying their skill or memory is rusty.  |
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe
161 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 09:23:25
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| tell them they have beaten the game it its one of their turns to dm. problem solved. yer welcome |
"Beware the Dream Fever!" |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 14:07:02
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Environment, environment, environment.
If you allow all enemies to be met, face to face in battle, with nothing to slow, separate, provide visual obstacles or a challenge in running the fight, you make it easy on the PCs.
If you make it so that all advantages lie with the PCs (terrain, number of enemies, known weaknesses), you make it easy on the PCs.
If you don't add other elements that are uncontrollable to the PCs (villains at a great height, behind cover; flyers, ranged weapons and attacks from villains, storms, wind, visibility), you make it easy on the PCs.
Lastly, make up DM rules. There already is rules for rough terrain that don't allow charging, and where movement becomes halved. As much as it will detract from the villains as well...well, use enemies with 15 foot reach. Hard to escape. :D
Fog that confuses, shadows everything...could be bonuses to Saving Throws, or even a rare 'miss' of a spell hitting the target.
What will the PCs do, argue? They can't, you're the DM. Just make sure anything you do is within the realm of storytelling, balanced and applied to both sides, and the group should feel that much better about winning when the odds of survival are against them. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4489 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 17:38:59
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Hm, for a group of 8 the monsters are really suffering from a action economy. The first thing I would do is bump up the level of the monsters you throw at them. If they're level 11, their modifiers are roughly +17 there-abouts so I would start throwing monsters with defenses between 29 - 32. It makes combats last longer because the PCs are hitting as often, but it also means that the monsters stick around longer to make up for the Action Economy problem.
Second, I'd attack their healing surges. Area effects and the like can be uses to drain their surges as well as special attacks from monsters. Surges are one of the things that PCs really prize in 4E and reducing them instantly effects how many encounters they can do in one day.
Third, keep them on their toes by breaking up larger combats into waves. These waves don't allow them to restock their encounter powers and they must rely more on their weaker at-wills (unless your running a lot of characters that are used with Essentials). Further, during short rests, I limit how often the leader can use their encounter-based healing power while the characters are spending surges. The less the Leader can use it, the more surges the players use up. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 19:26:52
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| And smart monsters will have lesser monsters as guardians/firepower/cannon fodder. Swarming the PCs with lesser enemies will hamper their effectiveness against greater ones. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 22:56:16
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| I'm not familiar with 4e, but in my experience DMs run into the most trouble by handing out too many magic items. Limit these (and behind that the number of spells/day) and you should generally be fine, even with a large group. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 01:18:09
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quote:
Originally posted by dahksinol
I'm looking for ways to keep them challenged, to keep them on their toes. Any suggestions?
-Puzzles. No one is going to muscle through a puzzle, and they'll have to flex a different kind of muscle to get past them. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4489 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 17:11:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by dahksinol
I'm looking for ways to keep them challenged, to keep them on their toes. Any suggestions?
-Puzzles. No one is going to muscle through a puzzle, and they'll have to flex a different kind of muscle to get past them.
Good idea!
I personally like timed ones that have really severe or life-threatening consequences. For some fun examples, playing the Piano of Bones in "The Goonies", Sudoku puzzle which blocks the exit for a cell filling up with water and each wrong number plugged releases more water into the cell, OR Hangman with one of the party members in such a literal scenario.
Good times  |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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genebateman
Acolyte
23 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2014 : 01:23:29
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| never played 4th edition but when i thought a party got too powerful i would send in the "4" and show them they are not. they are 4 charcters that started back in the mid 80's. me and the players of them would min max them to the point they can not be defeated. then they would kill the upstarts and the group would start all over |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4489 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2014 : 08:06:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I'm not familiar with 4e, but in my experience DMs run into the most trouble by handing out too many magic items. Limit these (and behind that the number of spells/day) and you should generally be fine, even with a large group.
Honestly, magical items don't really work in that capacity for 4E. I mean, yes they have bonuses to Hit and Damage, but most of the weapons/armor/other stuff often only have a 1/day or 1/encounter power that doesn't factor into the overall character wholly. For example, take this item I slightly altered. I didn't want to post copyrighted material so I removed level and cost and flavor text as well as changed the name....
Staff of Scary Flame
Implement: Staff
Enhancement Bonus: attack rolls and damage rolls
Critical: Regain an encounter power with the fire or fear keyword.
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Power (Fire) (Minor Action)
The staff sheds bright light in your square and each square within 5 squares of you, and melee and close attacks with the staff deal fire damage instead of their normal damage type and have the fire keyword. You can end this effect as a free action.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Power (Fear, Fire) Daily (Free Action)
Trigger: You hit an enemy with an attack power using this staff.
Effect: That enemy takes 1d8 extra fire damage, and you push the enemy 3 squares.
Paragon Tier: 2d8 extra fire damage.
Epic Tier: 3d8 extra fire damage.
This item, in most circumstances isn't going to be a 'game changer' for any specific character. Sure, it'll help with say...a Warlock or Wizard who dabbles in both Fire and Fear-based magic but but criticals happen 5% of the time, so the critical 'tag' isn't all that great. The level bonus to attack/damage is on par with everything else at it's supposed level (again, nothing that great). It's minor-action power to light up and deal fire damage to targets is pretty much the biggest feature to this staff because attack with it instantly gain the Fire keyword, thus triggering feats and other special effects. The Daily power is rather 'meh' power-wise, useful sure, but not overly eye-popping in terms of ZOMG!
4th Edition did a few things with magical items:
1st, they made it mandatory within the system math. It's expected that you hit certain benchmarks for the "Pluses" at certain tiers of play. Heroic, for example, assumes you'll be toting around +1 to +2 items until about 11th level as well as (Heroic Tier) level items until early to mid-Paragon. So if a DM wants to keep things in the realm of non-TPK, they sort of have to maintain some idea of Wealth-by-Level due to the system. Now later on they realized this wasn't such a great idea so they came up with Inherent bonuses that each character go to maintain the Math balance and left all the magical gear to what abilities they had. My Staff of Scary Flame would't add any bonuses to hit or damage rolls, just have the Critical effect and the two effects related to it's power.
2nd, they made character rely far less on their gear (except math-wise) to continue adventuring and tackle obstacles without them. The Fighter doesn't necessarily become a dead weight if his Magical Mithral plate mail goes missing, because he's not totally hindered by grabbing a regular suit of plate mail at the next town or metropolis. Sure, it stinks losing your gear but it happens. It just shouldn't make you useless when it does.
3rd, the effects of their gear have a much more limited use. Winged Boots, for example, allow you to take no falling damage and you always land on your fee as an all-time property. In addition, 1/day it allows you to fly your speed for the rest of the combat-encounter or for 5 minutes. So no more people using dozens of wands of X (with 20+ charges), no more spamming a specific item's effect (like Valorous weapons from Unapproachable East).
Basically the math is really all that's necessary where magical items are concerned, everything else is just gravy. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
Edited by - Diffan on 07 Apr 2014 08:07:55 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4489 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2014 : 08:15:27
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quote:
Originally posted by genebateman
never played 4th edition but when i thought a party got too powerful i would send in the "4" and show them they are not. they are 4 charcters that started back in the mid 80's. me and the players of them would min max them to the point they can not be defeated. then they would kill the upstarts and the group would start all over
This would be a good idea except that in 4E, adversaries are build differently than PCs. NPCs, to a point, can be build with classes and probably gain a few powers and the like but often they have their own system-math to go with instead of just building up a character X-levels. I mean, you could do that, I just think the encounter would drag on forever. There are so many ways in which character can get back into the fight that it'll be a LOT of back and forth.
But along this vein I'd suggest throwing some top-level Lurkers at them. Give the lurkers some decent spike damage effects (+3d6 when they have Combat Advantage), give them cover and ways to negate PC's attacks, boost their AC and Defenses so that PCs need to roll approx 70% - 75% to land their attacks. Also, minions have a way with screwing up more melee-oriented PCs because they get in the way of blaster's spells (unless the spellcasters don't care that your in their Fireball?) which means they'll be harder to target all the time with the minion-popping effects. Also, monsters can focus-fire well. By having them target the parties Controllers, Strikers, and Leaders they can keep the fodder of minions on the defender guys for protection. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 23:56:59
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quote:
Originally posted by genebateman
never played 4th edition but when i thought a party got too powerful i would send in the "4" and show them they are not. they are 4 charcters that started back in the mid 80's. me and the players of them would min max them to the point they can not be defeated. then they would kill the upstarts and the group would start all over
-Seems kind of counterproductive; if the DM just wanted to kill the entire party, he/she could just throw insanely powerful "DM invincible" enemies that Level 11 players wouldn't be able to handle even if completely maximized. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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My level 11 players have gotten too strong! Help!
