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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Apr 2014 : 01:15:30
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I can go with Zhengyi being Narfelli in origin, it explains his worhsip of Orcus and after the Zulkirate is established and the Narfelli faction loses a lot of power then that would explain his going renegade.
But what reason would we have for Ythazz Buvarr going renegade. He helps create the Zulkirship and then suddenly goes renegade against it makes no sense at all (especially if he was a Zulkir himself). You can only leave the post of Zulkir by being utterly destroyed (or running far far away). If he is a demi lich he would be nigh impossible to destroy (especially if he is over 2000 years old, he would have learned a trick or two) so he would have to voluntarily relinquish the position of Zulkir and flee the country which also doesnt make sense given his level of power if he were a demi lich.
Also demi liches do not make great figure heads since they typically lack a corporeal body. A talking skull with gems in his eyes probably would have been noted in the history excerpt.
If Ythazz was a demi lich why would he even bother with Thayd. Demi liches are among some of the most powerful creatures on the planet and to my mind moreso than vestiges.
And finally the means of becoming a demi lich are not necessarily down to time alone. Shoon VII went from lich to demi lich in less than 1000 years and the means of his transformation are unknown and could have in fact been an accident. The epic handbook describes the creation of soul gems which implies a deliberate act to transform into a demi lich.
So it is entirely possible (and just as implausible) that Ythazz Buvarr was alive in 922 DR, became a lich sometime after and by 1360 DR was a demi lich.
Also if we give Zhengyi, Ythazz, and Velsharoon different origins and allegiances we then have to come up with plausible explanations for them going renegade against the very establishment they helped create, when one of them was most likely in a ruling position on that establishment.
Ythazz could have been a lich in 922 and like Szass no one may have noticed, and that may have been one of the reasons for him leaving wherever he is from (I dont recall any Halruan liches so maybe they dont like lichdom there). But if we make them devout worshippers of Mystra then we have a fairly simple explanation as to why they went "renegade" and had to leave Thay.
On Ythazz, he was a lich at the time of the Thayan revolt (I state this because in Crimson Gold it has references to him bowing, wearing a cloak, standing his ground and the earth shakes beneath their feet, etc...). Ythazz helped establish the Zulkirate (i.e. 8 schools of magic with their own Zulkir governing the country), but only after Thayd was gone. What Thayd established PRIOR TO THE ZULKIRATE was a country with HIM at the top and a bunch of loyal followers who he gave a title of "Zulkir". So, basically, Thayd set himself up as a tyrant and was ruling somewhat like a king and "promoting" those who would do HIS bidding. It was only after Escalthar called the council of the black star (after Thayd had mysteriously "disappeared")that the actual Zulkirate based on schools of magic was formed. So, essentially, Ythazz wasn't a renegade... he was one of the founders of the final form of governance.
So, why would Ythazz turn renegade against Thayd? Maybe Thayd was giving more respect and power to the anima mages (binder/wizards) who were channeling him. Maybe Ythazz didn't like this and wanted wizards at the top of the food chain. Maybe Ythazz was just pissed at Thayd because he felt like Thayd was getting all the credit and power, and Ythazz had done most of the heavy lifting.
(NOTE: it also occurs to me that Escalthar may have had some doings with Thayd "disappearing", since he did call the council of the black star.... and he was thought to be a servant of Azuth.... I can definitely see Azuth favoring a society ruled by living wizards exclusively over one ruled by both wizards and binders <and possibly others> acting as the forceful arm of a Vestige).
Presumably, at the time that Thayd "went away" Ythazz was still a lich. I'm thinking that he became a demi-lich only after becoming Zulkir. He probably secreted himself away for a good long while in order to discover the process to become a demi-lich. During that time, he may have put a little too much trust in his fellow diviners. Hell, he might have been "caught" right after completing the ritual, and whoever did it brought out Ythazz's headless body as proof of his death (possibly with a shattered skull from some other undead). The history I have written up for him goes
"Having won out against the God-Kings, Ythazz turned once again to his researches. Eventually, he discovered the secret to attaining a higher level of lichdom, transforming himself into a demilich. However, in his time spent researching, Ythazz had committed a grievous error. He had quit watching his underlings.
Ythazz still doesn’t know who sent the golem to entrap his skull within the globe of arandur with its magic-sucking interior. Nor did he know where they transported to afterwards until recently, when the welds on the exterior of the arandur globe began to finally crack. Unfortunately, he finds himself in an area of dead magic, surrounded by numerous constructs, and enclosed within an arandur globe that is attached to a metallic clamp to the floor. Except for a few spells which he has magically “scribed” within the gems replacing his teeth, he is also without his spells. His original phylactery has been destroyed, leaving him with only the soul gems comprising his demi-lich body. However, he is not without hope. The foulness of his presence draws undead to his general area. Most are destroyed for drawing too near. However, some are intelligent enough that they have gleaned some idea of what awaits ahead. Working as his servants, they seek someone who can help them free “the dark one” from his prison, and Ythazz waits for the day that they succeed."
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ilmarinnen
Acolyte
Ukraine
29 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2014 : 21:48:20
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Just a few suggestions that may be useful for your campaigns:
quote:
sorcerers are looked down upon (my personal belief is that this is due to the propensity for Mulhorandi nobles of aasimar blood being sorcerers).
To my opinions Red Wizards (RW) are jealous to share power of magic with anyone else, thus they'll treat as wizards only those trained in official academies of their schools (and definitely indoctrinated into their ideals). Any other magic users, like illegally taught wizards or naturally born sorcerers, warlocks and wilders are severely persecuted. Moreso RW present themself to population as only defenders from barbarians, tyrants and monsters.
And population is taught to consider "wild" sorcerers amd warlocks as naturals monsters, far more dangerous than gnolls, dread warriors, giants or domesticated wyverns, and to inform local authorities when suspecting ones. In this situation most of sorcerers and warocks will be exterminated or tortured to death in "experiments" yet in youth. Surviving ones will learn to hide well their talent/ curse (remember "Frozen"?). They fight for survival, and are not likely to form societies, since they are very distrustful to inform anyone of their curse.
The only lucky exclusions may by fire genasis or diabolic tieflings which may be "adopted" to serve to the churches of Kossut and Bane respectfully, being considered as manifestations of powers of their lords.
quote:
raumathari battlemages
The main feature of Raumatharian battlemagic is delivering one's spells through the blows of sword.
Even though Thayan wizards have better opportunities than anyone else to uncover long buried secrets of Battlemegic, I doubt it will be popular among RW. It requires one to fight in the first line, while RW definitely tend to act in battle from behind the backs of bodyguards (magically altered thayan gladiators, constructs, undead dread warriors, mentally conditioned thayan knights etc...).
Moreso - as for me, traditional look of RW, like long robes, long nails, staffs is specific for "people of mind", squeamish of physical excersises and endangering themselves. Studying sword fighting is a shame for one.
quote:
There is the Griffin Legion which was comprised of a lot of warriors on griffins. There was also the Griffin Legion that was exclusively red wizards mounted on Griffins.
Griffin legion is not comprised of Red wizards. There are not enough RW in Thay to fill rank and file of legions, even of such elite ones. In "Haunted lands" trilogy by RL Byers, captain one of its squadrons (and commander of the whole legion in 1385) Aoth Fezim (even though a mage and a mulan) does not claim to be or become a Red wizard.
However in service of schools and tharchs there are dozens of legions: infantry, cavalry, air cavalry, bombard batteries (whatever you might add yet?), whose officers definitely form certain political groups. Don't forget the navy of Alaor too. |
Edited by - Ilmarinnen on 06 Apr 2014 21:54:00 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2014 : 23:05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Ilmarinnen
Just a few suggestions that may be useful for your campaigns:
quote:
sorcerers are looked down upon (my personal belief is that this is due to the propensity for Mulhorandi nobles of aasimar blood being sorcerers).
To my opinions Red Wizards (RW) are jealous to share power of magic with anyone else, thus they'll treat as wizards only those trained in official academies of their schools (and definitely indoctrinated into their ideals). Any other magic users, like illegally taught wizards or naturally born sorcerers, warlocks and wilders are severely persecuted. Moreso RW present themself to population as only defenders from barbarians, tyrants and monsters.
And population is taught to consider "wild" sorcerers amd warlocks as naturals monsters, far more dangerous than gnolls, dread warriors, giants or domesticated wyverns, and to inform local authorities when suspecting ones. In this situation most of sorcerers and warocks will be exterminated or tortured to death in "experiments" yet in youth. Surviving ones will learn to hide well their talent/ curse (remember "Frozen"?). They fight for survival, and are not likely to form societies, since they are very distrustful to inform anyone of their curse.
The only lucky exclusions may by fire genasis or diabolic tieflings which may be "adopted" to serve to the churches of Kossut and Bane respectfully, being considered as manifestations of powers of their lords.
quote:
raumathari battlemages
The main feature of Raumatharian battlemagic is delivering one's spells through the blows of sword.
Even though Thayan wizards have better opportunities than anyone else to uncover long buried secrets of Battlemegic, I doubt it will be popular among RW. It requires one to fight in the first line, while RW definitely tend to act in battle from behind the backs of bodyguards (magically altered thayan gladiators, constructs, undead dread warriors, mentally conditioned thayan knights etc...).
Moreso - as for me, traditional look of RW, like long robes, long nails, staffs is specific for "people of mind", squeamish of physical excersises and endangering themselves. Studying sword fighting is a shame for one.
quote:
There is the Griffin Legion which was comprised of a lot of warriors on griffins. There was also the Griffin Legion that was exclusively red wizards mounted on Griffins.
Griffin legion is not comprised of Red wizards. There are not enough RW in Thay to fill rank and file of legions, even of such elite ones. In "Haunted lands" trilogy by RL Byers, captain one of its squadrons (and commander of the whole legion in 1385) Aoth Fezim (even though a mage and a mulan) does not claim to be or become a Red wizard.
However in service of schools and tharchs there are dozens of legions: infantry, cavalry, air cavalry, bombard batteries (whatever you might add yet?), whose officers definitely form certain political groups. Don't forget the navy of Alaor too.
regarding "other types of casters"... i.e. sorcerors, warlocks, warmages, dread necromancers, beguilers, binders, bards, etc...
I submit that sorcerors are looked down upon in Thay. It is documented as such, and I simply give my assumption as to why (i.e. they don't respect those who gain powers just by being born). I would submit that warlocks would also be looked down upon, as they are "beggars for their powers". The same would go for binders (plus, my beliefs as to the early history of Thay may strengthen this prejudice). However, warmages, dread necromancer, beguilers, and bards all must train to use their skill.... and nearly all of these would make unsuitable wizards as their skill is in charisma not in intelligence. Some members of their families will naturally be more inclined to these styles of castings, and I would assume that they don't just go about killing people who study other types of magic.... especially since they fought for the ability to research magic however they want to. So, in a family who is closely allied with the school of invocation... if they had a child with more charisma, they'd probably encourage him to be a warmage. Similarly, in a family closely tied to the school of necromancy, they may encourage them towards dread necromancy. Enchantment, divination, and illusion may encourage bards and beguilers.
regarding the Raumathari Battlemages-
Again, this would be for a society of mages who are focused on learning battle magic. Personally, I've long held that not all Thayan wizards become RED WIZARDS. Some pursue other paths. To outsiders, these other wizards are still Thayan wizards, but to the red wizards, these individuals are simply subjects. To those who state that red wizards wouldn't allow these casters to exist within their borders, I simply point out that the WHOLE REASON for their revolt was they wanted freedom in their ability to research magic. To say that all red wizards come from the same mold is short sighted. However, these types of red wizards would be the exception, as most with the intellect to be wizards are lacking in the physical skills to be warriors as well.
regarding the griffon legion. I specify there are two groups because of the disparity brought about by the R L Beyers novels. Its easier to incorporate that there's two groups than to specify that all the other canon references are wrong. Specific canon references below:
From Spellbound, pg 16
The best known aerial Thayan unit is the Griffon Legion, commanded personally by the tharchion of Pyarados. Numbering over 350 griffons, each with a Red Wizard mount, the legion itself is a potent fighting body capable of defeating forces many times its own size.
From Unapproachable East, pg 161
The best-known army of Thay is the Griffon Legion, a group of some four hundred Red Wizards commanded by the tharchion of Pyarados — currently Tharchion Nymia Focar—soaring through the skies on the backs of griffons.
So, I submit that there were two groups, both of which reported to the tharchion of Pyarados. Most likely, they had to separate the two groups because the red wizards would all try to take command of the warriors of the more warrior-ish legion. So, to handle that issue, one group was all red wizards... and the other was all non-red wizards. Presumably the red wizard one was filled mostly with low level red wizards, so as not to cause infighting between them and the Tharchion.
One thing to note for any specialist wizards who remain in Thay and don't become red wizards (i.e. eldritch knights, mystic theurges, and arcane tricksters being the most common examples, but also wizards who choose other paths). Most will choose tattoo focus. These individuals may be required to perform in circles as a result. They may even hire their services out for such, and thus earn money on the side, particularly if they plan on spending the day making potions or scrolls, etc... Ever since second edition, I've had a guild whose purpose was to act as a contractor for these services (i.e. they handle the putting the seller of the services together with the buyers, so that wizards aren't having to run around to find such). Many low level red wizards make a modest living simply by selling their services (assuming they don't have a master who commands their services). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2014 : 23:30:20
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Oh, and just a note, on that guild that manages circle casters. It is known that many powerful but dead red wizards are known to exist on and supporting this guild... but as simulacrums. This is because many upper level red wizards kept the bodies of their competitors and created simulacrums from them (some even sell body parts of wizards they've killed so that others can make simulacrums, or some red wizards have been known to secretly invade other red wizards abodes just to chop off the arm from a corpse of an archmage). Of course, the XP loss prevents this from getting too much out of hand, but the creators rent out the services of their simulacrums in order to make side money. This guild may also negotiate other castings by these simulacrums with the permission of the creator. The guild is very careful to never put these simulacrums in harm's way unless absolutely necessary (red wizards seeking revenge over the loss of simulacrums can get deadly). Many of these masters who have created numerous simulacrums for the use in circles also tend to have very little need for their own apprentices in circles, and thus these apprentices are often free to sell their services with the guild (and many masters require that their students oversee the use of the simulacrums). Also, they tend to make simulacrums of individuals who can cast spells in their opposition schools (it should be noted that they DON'T choose individuals for their crafting feats, since simulacrums cannot earn the necessary xp to craft items).
This guild can have a lot of use in the game at the levels where wizards are becoming dangerous red wizards (say between 10th-14th lvl) . For instance, if some up and coming mage is suddenly buying the services of a bunch of red wizards of moderate skill, then he may be off to go do something interesting. The guild may report this information to the Zulkirs or other individuals who would pay for the information. Similarly, if a wizard uses the guild to say get a simulacrum that can cast a spell for them that they can't normally cast, that information may be sold. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2014 : 06:05:48
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I consider that before the Zulkirate, the Red Wizards were likely a motley crew of assorted spellcasters, affiliated more in terms of cults of personality rather than spellcasting schools or traditions. Once the Council of Zulkirs was created, I consider that these "outlier" forms of spellcasting were actively rooted out and the mages/spellcasters practicing them were slain or exiled from the realm, leading to a more ordered wizardly existence. Fringe spellcasters involved in binding, shadow magic etc. etc would be a very hidden few, likely enslaved by powerful individual Red Wizards for their unique skillsets but nothing more.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 07 Apr 2014 06:06:23 |
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Ilmarinnen
Acolyte
Ukraine
29 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2014 : 12:41:27
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No need to quarrel. I just describe what I accepted in my campaign.
quote:
warmages, dread necromancers, beguilers, binders
They are not core and are not mentioned in sources except Class Chronicles. And even there they are described as very limited groups with very specific origin.
What I meant is that mage primary training in Thay is concentrated in a small number of academies all in possession of schools. There their personalities are formed and academies mean much to them. A mage asking for employment in a guild or a legion may first be asked, where did he study, and if there are doubts it is easily checked.
Still I believe A Thrul could found an establishment for training warmages or Mythrellan - for beguilers. But still within their schools. Real political power lies with them.
Still why not if it benefits you campaign and plot?
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bards
If you like to propose some special training for charismatic children, I'd rather recommend school of hexblades. It is mentioned in Class chronicles. Theremore (I guess it was mentioned in UE), singing/dancing are considered a shameful activity for self-respecting thayan mulans.
quote:
Numbering over 350 griffons, each with a Red Wizard mount,
In fact. One can not argue with sources :-)
Can't find the original quote but it was mentioned thet the whole number of RW is about 1.000. Would that mean more than a third of all RW in existence concentrated in one unit?
quote:
i.e. eldritch knights, mystic theurges, and arcane tricksters being the most common examples, but also wizards who choose other paths
I supposed that having status of RW and right to wear scarlet robe did not require one to have exactly PrC of Red Wizard? They can be master specialists, shadow adepts, archimages. For some specialists, like for abjurers, RW PrC is not worth efforts. It's rather a sign of power and employment into organization.
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, I've had a guild whose purpose was to act as a contractor for these services
Sound idea!
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It is known that many powerful but dead red wizards are known to exist on and supporting this guild... but as simulacrums.
I like that! Is there some official info on simulacrum wizards?
By the way rules on simulacri in SRD are quite vague... What happens to one when its creator dies? Do they age? Do they have normal organic needs like breathing and eating? |
Edited by - Ilmarinnen on 07 Apr 2014 20:58:46 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 00:48:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ilmarinnen
No need to quarrel. I just describe what I accepted in my campaign.
quote:
warmages, dread necromancers, beguilers, binders
They are not core and are not mentioned in sources except Class Chronicles. And even there they are described as very limited groups with very specific origin.
What I meant is that mage primary training in Thay is concentrated in a small number of academies all in possession of schools. There their personalities are formed and academies mean much to them. A mage asking for employment in a guild or a legion may first be asked, where did he study, and if there are doubts it is easily checked.
Still I believe A Thrul could found an establishment for training warmages or Mythrellan - for beguilers. But still within their schools. Real political power lies with them.
Still why not if it benefits you campaign and plot?
quote:
bards
If you like to propose some special training for charismatic children, I'd rather recommend school of hexblades. It is mentioned in Class chronicles. Theremore (I guess it was mentioned in UE), singing/dancing are considered a shameful activity for self-respecting thayan mulans.
quote:
Numbering over 350 griffons, each with a Red Wizard mount,
In fact. One can not argue with sources :-)
Can't find the original quote but it was mentioned thet the whole number of RW is about 1.000. Would that mean more than a third of all RW in existence concentrated in one unit?
quote:
i.e. eldritch knights, mystic theurges, and arcane tricksters being the most common examples, but also wizards who choose other paths
I supposed that having status of RW and right to wear scarlet robe did not require one to have exactly PrC of Red Wizard? They can be master specialists, shadow adepts, archimages. For some specialists, like for abjurers, RW PrC is not worth efforts. It's rather a sign of power and employment into organization.
quote:
, I've had a guild whose purpose was to act as a contractor for these services
Sound idea!
quote:
It is known that many powerful but dead red wizards are known to exist on and supporting this guild... but as simulacrums.
I like that! Is there some official info on simulacrum wizards?
By the way rules on simulacri in SRD are quite vague... What happens to one when its creator dies? Do they age? Do they have normal organic needs like breathing and eating?
No quarrel (sorry, sometimes my writing comes off that way).
The hexblade idea is a sound one as well, though I'm betting they'd be extremely rare. I don't see enough of them being around to form a group, but they might have an existence say within a warrior academy (or maybe amongst the group teaching eldritch knights, warmages, etc...). I've never much cared for bards in Thay, I only listed them as they would be an option that I see the school of divination favoring for any children more inclined to charisma than intelligence (and some bards could fit in with enchanters and illusionists.... but I'm betting any children affiliated with families with strong ties to those schools would more guide their children towards beguiler and/or arcane trickster).
On the red robes, I've been somewhat on the ropes there when 3rd edition came out. Personally, what I decided is that all arcane casters were allowed to wear red, but its a specific hue of red (a deep blood red). I then adopted a term used in previous editions to describe these wizards (i.e. bloodcowls). (note: in the following, I'm capitalizing RED WIZARD to simply convey their self-importance within the country). Its a very important distinction because only RED WIZARDS can order folks about. If a bloodcowl were to try and order about a RED WIZARD, he's likely to earn the ire of the other RED WIZARDS who want to keep themselves as a group in power. Now, some of these bloodcowls are powerful enough that they might be able to disregard an order from a RED WIZARD, but they do not have the right to order about any troops (unless of course they are given said rights by a RED WIZARD). So, oftentimes, these RED WIZARDS actually join the prestige class for the political power (as well as the benefits gained through circle magic).
On simulacrums, yes, there is limited information on how they react to things like time. Personally, my take on them is that they are constructs, but they are constructs that don't have any of the features & traits of the construct type. So, its my viewpoint that they do indeed age, and they are formed at the same "age" that the body was that they are formed from (and therefore creating a simulacrum from someone that died of natural causes would result in a dead simulacrum, but if you have magically preserved a corpse you killed.... its usable). They do need to eat to fuel the body. However, unlike living people, they don't naturally heal (though I assume their bodies can fight off things like a minor cold virus without needing a cure disease). As to whether they outlast their creator... my personal take is yes, and they continue to follow the last command they were given (note, I consider them to be more complex than other constructs and thus able to understand very complex commands). So, a simulacrum who was ordered to serve the guild in any circle castings they require would continue to do so.... even if the guild say ordered the creator's death through the assassin's guild. Of course, the guild may not know that the creator also ordered the simulacrum to attack the leaders of the circle guild should he not show up at least once a month to check in on him. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 01:04:39
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| You know, in talking about simulacrums, it occurs to me that there could be a really interesting spell. What if there were a spell that allowed a wizard to transfer his ability to command a simulacrum into an item, such that the wearer of said item could command the simulacrum. It might be an item creation instead of a spell too. Main thing, the owner has to willingly give up his ability to command a simulacrum. It wouldn't happen often, because lord knows the 1000 xp (or more) loss to create the simulacrum is hefty. However, I can see a Daeron or Daeronness who is worried about his child being willing to create a simulacrum (or buy a simulacrum if said Daeron or Daeronness is only noble and not a powerful wizard) to protect his child. This especially proves interesting if he decides he wants a healer instead of a wizard..... I wonder how deities feel about the worship energy provided by simulacrums (I guess it would be no different than an intelligent construct that learned to worship). I wonder how churches would feel about such simulacrums.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 02:05:51
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| btw, as long as we're talking about RW's, I have to say that the 3.5 version was by far the worst (and I say that while also noting that 3.5 is my favorite edition). In second edition, you had two versions of the RW kit. The first was pretty simple, they just got bonus spells and were a little more effective casters of those spells, and no extra opposition schools, but their opposition schools were more likely to affect them. The second kit allowed them to specialize in 2 schools of magic, but they took both opposition schools. However, for some combinations, this wasn't really an issue (invoker/diviners & enchanter/illusionists & illusionist/transmuters were. Under 3.0 they did the most abominable thing with the forcing them to remove 3 schools of magic (and they cleaned up the schools so they made more sense), which was a real crimp in their style of play.... BUT they had spellpower that increased the DC's in their chosen school enormously... so it was somewhat understandable and the red wizards truly became masters of their particular school. However, in 3.5 they turned around and turned the spell power into just bonus caster level, so the only way they could increase a spell's DC was through heightening it (granted, which was possible via their circles), but they still pulled away the extra school of magic. At the same time, they did NOT similarly gimp the Halruaan elder nor the Hathran (who could also use circles to heighten their spells). Granted, at their capstone ability, the red wizards can pull in more people to enhance their circles than the other two, but the other class abilities of the other two are also vastly better (Hathrans being able to spontaneously change spell, Halruaan Elders being able to severely reduce the metamagic cost of the spells they enhance in their circle... i.e. they can maximize and empower a spell for what it would cost a red wizard to maximize a spell, or they can heighten by 2 levels for just 1 lvl cost a LOT of spells). So, I bring this up because I feel there's a couple quick fixes. First, remove the extra school loss (this effectively makes the prestige class similar to the 2nd edition class in spellbound). The next option, keep the third opposition school, but for all wizards make opposition schools work like they do in Pathfinder, in that they CAN cast spells from their opposition school, just it raises said spells level (my preferred option, but it does affect ALL wizards). Third, keep spell power working for just red wizards the same way it did in 3.0, such that the DC's of their spells from their chosen school are extremely high (prefer this the least, as it really screws diviners and abjurers). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 03:39:48
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| On the idea that there are only 1000 red wizards, I'd be interested more in the source of any such quote because of editions. It should be noted that in previous editions you couldn't be a red wizard until 9th lvl, whereas in 3e that becomes 6th lvl. Griffins were also more powerful mounts in the earlier editions. Either way, there are roughly 5 million people in Thay, of which 3.1 million are humans. To say that there is only 1 red wizard for every 5 thousand people in Thay would I think be a gross under estimation (now, if we were to say there may only be 1000 red wizards capable of leading a circle... that may be closer to the truth). That being said, it might be hard to believe that there are 350 individual red wizards of 6th lvl or higher that are riding griffins.... so I'd probably propose a somewhat mix here and state that roughly half of these "red wizards" are in fact still "bloodcowls" in training to become red wizards (say 3rd lvl wizards minimum, with 4th and 5th being more common). It might even be that a dozen or two of these red wizards are actually simulacrums as well (possibly sent to protect apprentices and/or children of powerful Daerons and Daeronnesses), or specifically to be used to protect any necessary retreat (assuming they have some teleportation means, as these would be valuable commodities to lose unless things were extremely desperate). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1588 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 07:02:35
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I'd suggest adapting the Spell Perfection feat with regard to the Red Wizards, and granting it to them either as a capstone or at 5th level.
Focused Perfection At 10th level, the Red Wizard has mastered the intricacies of his specialized school, which grants him potent benefits. First, when the Red Wizard acquires (or already has) a feat that alters a set numerical bonus to spells from his specialized school (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray] and so on), he doubles the numerical bonus.
In addition, once per day the Red Wizard may spontaneously apply a metamagic feat he knows to any one spell of his specialized school.
Therefore, assuming Tattoo Focus, SF and GSF, the RW is already looking at a whopping +6 DC. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 08 Apr 2014 07:03:17 |
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Ilmarinnen
Acolyte
Ukraine
29 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 07:30:24
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I found it!
Lords of Darkness p. 56
Members: Approximately 1,000 actual Red Wizards, with
approximately 5,000 practicing wizards in their service. |
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Ilmarinnen
Acolyte
Ukraine
29 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 12:49:05
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quote:
hexblade idea is a sound one as well, though I'm betting they'd be extremely rare. I don't see enough of them being around to form a group, but they might have an existence say within a warrior academy
Just quoting...
https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070523
There is only one hexblade college on Faer#251;n, Hexcidon, and it is housed in Bezantur. At this school, generations of hexblades study to become elite bodyguards and generals for Thay. |
Edited by - Ilmarinnen on 08 Apr 2014 12:50:05 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2014 : 09:44:23
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Cauldron of Monsters, yet another awesome piece of realmslore that fills in a crucial moment of Thar history i.e. when Thar was created in its current form.
So we have the creation of Thar between -356 DR and before 400 DR because Horreb, Barze and that barbarian culture occupied the land of Thar and the area was definitely not a wasteland then, and by 400 DR Iyrauroth was taking part in destroying Northkeep with his brood (score another point for one of my musings).
Further complete speculation to narrow it down somewhat more. The Quivering Forest was planted in 367 DR by the elves to mark the founding of Phlan. I speculate that this forest was actually planted to limit the growth of Thar and keep the human settlements of the Moonsea safe from the wasteland (which has been growing gradually)
Northkeep was also founded in 348 DR so it would make sense for Iyrauroth to be around since before its founding that way he would be more likely to take offence at the humans settling in his domain.
Now since Iyrauroth is Embrurshaille's sister it seems sensible that he inherited her perceived domain (kind of like human kings) at least in Iyrauroth's mind anyway.
Embrurshaille's perceived domain is between the Earthspur Mountains and the Galena Range to the Far Hills and the Orsraun Mountains. Of course Thauglorimorgorus and Venom cut down this domain to just the Moonsea but there is no reason he couldnt have warred with them over the borders.
Iyrauroth however would not fare so well against human kingdoms such as Netheril so it may also be sensible to have him arrive after the fall of Netheril. Also Embrurshaille's writeup states she began assembling many magic items to power her spell so if Netheril had already fallen when she began this spell she could collect her items from there.
Now i am thinking dating the event before -205 DR because it is in this year that Thauglorimorgorus lost his battle of honour for control of the Forest Kingdom, and since it mentions the Purple Dragon being one of her feared neighbours who she worked against he should still be in control of that area when she is around.
The problem with this however is that the article specifically mentions Thauglorimorgorus as the Purple Dragon of Cormyr which could be seen as pointing to Cormyr existing when Embrurshaille existed (26 DR onwards). Although it could also mean the narrator simply used the dragon's most common name so everyone would know.
If Thar was created after 26 DR, that leaves less than 400 years for the ogres to create a kingdom and lose it which isnt a problem in itself but other dates make it a problem.
For instance in -206 DR the real Venom was slain which would severely reduce competition in the area for Embrurshaille and so she could have expanded into Cormanthor but didnt which suggests she may have already been dead by then.
So how about year of the Impudent Kin (-280 DR) signifying Iyrauroth's return to steal all Embrurshaille's hoard. Or Year of the Empty Soul -220 DR to signify Embrurshaille's failed spell that does something unknown to her soul possibly joins it with the weave.
Looking forward to many more articles on Thar. Its such an interesting place. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2014 : 10:48:24
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I'd suggest adapting the Spell Perfection feat with regard to the Red Wizards, and granting it to them either as a capstone or at 5th level.
Focused Perfection At 10th level, the Red Wizard has mastered the intricacies of his specialized school, which grants him potent benefits. First, when the Red Wizard acquires (or already has) a feat that alters a set numerical bonus to spells from his specialized school (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray] and so on), he doubles the numerical bonus.
In addition, once per day the Red Wizard may spontaneously apply a metamagic feat he knows to any one spell of his specialized school.
Therefore, assuming Tattoo Focus, SF and GSF, the RW is already looking at a whopping +6 DC.
Very interesting idea, though it would probably be best if you spell out exactly what numerical values can be doubled (say caster level and save DC and maybe bonus to saves to resist). I could see this encouraging more shadow weave users in Thay than there were previously (at least for enchanters, illy's and maybe necros). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2014 : 10:59:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ilmarinnen
I found it!
Lords of Darkness p. 56
Members: Approximately 1,000 actual Red Wizards, with
approximately 5,000 practicing wizards in their service.
Interesting, so 3rd edition where they lowered the bar for becoming a "red wizard" to 6th lvl instead of 9th. I wonder if they're basing this on some obscure lore from previous editions, or if they just pulled the number from a hat (i.e. did they say 1000 somewhere previously when the level was 9th). Still, I agree, the 350/400 (depending on edition) as all being "true" red wizards is a little out of the box, and I'm betting at least half of them are "practicing wizards"... or what I term in my homebrew as bloodcowls. At the lower levels, having a griffin mount would be pretty amazingly useful, but at the upper levels they'd be dead in the first blast. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1588 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2014 : 05:08:00
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I'd suggest adapting the Spell Perfection feat with regard to the Red Wizards, and granting it to them either as a capstone or at 5th level.
Focused Perfection At 10th level, the Red Wizard has mastered the intricacies of his specialized school, which grants him potent benefits. First, when the Red Wizard acquires (or already has) a feat that alters a set numerical bonus to spells from his specialized school (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray] and so on), he doubles the numerical bonus.
In addition, once per day the Red Wizard may spontaneously apply a metamagic feat he knows to any one spell of his specialized school.
Therefore, assuming Tattoo Focus, SF and GSF, the RW is already looking at a whopping +6 DC.
Very interesting idea, though it would probably be best if you spell out exactly what numerical values can be doubled (say caster level and save DC and maybe bonus to saves to resist). I could see this encouraging more shadow weave users in Thay than there were previously (at least for enchanters, illy's and maybe necros).
By set numerical bonus, I mean bonuses that provide a flat benefit instead of a random dice roll. Weapon Focus [ray, melee touch], Spell Focus, Spell Penetration and so on fit, Arcane Defense doesn't.
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Thay 1370's
